Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Good news summary:This week Ko Zaw Lin and Ko Wai Phyo will take the stand in a court on the Thai island of Koh Samui http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/in-depth/16238-koh-tao-accused-to-take-the-stand-as-defence-case-begins.html …

[StealthEnergiser]

Koh Tao accused to take the stand as defence case begins

By Michael Sainsbury | Tuesday, 01 September 2015

This week Ko Zaw Lin and Ko Wai Phyo will take the stand in a court on the Thai island of Koh Samui. It has been a long wait for the young men: Their trial began on July 8, but so far has seen only 12 days of hearings. Only today will the defence case be able to get under way.

The young, slightly built pair, both 22-year-old migrants from Rakhine State, stand accused of the brutal murders of British backpackers Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, on the island of Koh Tao.

A 90-minute boat ride from Koh Samui, Koh Tao is home to about 2000 Thais and as many as 5000 Myanmar migrant workers, according to Thai police estimates.

http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/in-depth/16238-koh-tao-accused-to-take-the-stand-as-defence-case-begins.html

[grumpyoldman]

I'm going to just point out that you admit of not knowing what all the 65 witnesses (66 now it seems) testified yet decided that no evidence was presented, just because you don't know something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Evidence was presented, the phone that some are trying very hard to pretend doesn't matter, DNA evidence, CCTV footage and witness testimony.

Of course it's up to the judge to decide if that evidence warrants a guilt conviction but simply declaring that no evidence was presented is just not true.

AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact and I've seen no report on that, as far as I'm aware not even a third of the number have actually taken the witness stand.

"As far as I know" is the key phrase there, once again I'm not the one making claims about how many witnesses have or have nottestified, so again, this is false "AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact" because I stated no such thing.

Seems a conclusion there (??), that's what is confusing regarding your train of thought. No offense intended.

[thailandchilli]

I'm going to just point out that you admit of not knowing what all the 65 witnesses (66 now it seems) testified yet decided that no evidence was presented, just because you don't know something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Evidence was presented, the phone that some are trying very hard to pretend doesn't matter, DNA evidence, CCTV footage and witness testimony.

Of course it's up to the judge to decide if that evidence warrants a guilt conviction but simply declaring that no evidence was presented is just not true.

AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact and I've seen no report on that, as far as I'm aware not even a third of the number have actually taken the witness stand.

"As far as I know" is the key phrase there, once again I'm not the one making claims about how many witnesses have or have nottestified, so again, this is false "AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact" because I stated no such thing.

"As far as I know" is not in your post so my question still stands.

[grumpyoldman]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Good news summary:This week Ko Zaw Lin and Ko Wai Phyo will take the stand in a court on the Thai island of Koh Samui http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/in-depth/16238-koh-tao-accused-to-take-the-stand-as-defence-case-begins.html …

This is good. One thing I'd like to point out from this article is the way the murderer(s), beat this beautiful ladie's face. Does that not suggest to anyone else extreme anger? To me it strikes as spurned individual who was out of control angry at this lady. Showed him up in front of his friends at the bar, eh?

[Basil B]

Fritz, You did not have to tell us, many of us are intelligent enough to have already worked that out ourselves...

[thailandchilli]

And another phone to throw in the mix is this one:

Forensics experts are now DNA testing hairs found in Hannah’s right hand. Police said they also found a pair of Chris’s blood-stained trousers in David’s luggage as well as an iPhone with long blonde hairs snagged on it.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-police-question-4277914

This was at the time they were trying to pin this on Chris Ware, they even had some witnesses already lined up saying they had seen Chris wearing the trousers that were found in Millers luggage (the ones they thought had blood on). The witnesses report is in the Bangkok Post so can't link to it.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Not being a lawyer I know everyone is talking about the phone's etc but i was thinking if the DNA is not a match and the defence show proof of that on their first day they take the stand would it be likely the judge could call a mistrial or would they continue on with the the rest of the charges ?

That a good logical question. On one hand you would have a "Nay" with the DNA Evidence, but on the other hand you have a "Yeah".

I am not a Lawyer either but my own personal views about this case, and this holds no water at all as it is just my own view based on nothing at all, is that this case will end in the Appeal Courts.

My opinion is not based on the evidence given, or what is to come, or even who will lodge this Appeal.I base this solely on the importance this case has become, with all the media attention that was given to it at first, so I am not sure if it could ever be satisfied in the lower courts now. Again this is only my person take on this. ,

[thailandchilli]

From the above article published today http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/in-depth/16238-koh-tao-accused-to-take-the-stand-as-defence-case-begins.html

“A number of significant leads were not followed up by the police – they only focused on these two men,” Mr Hall said.

Those leads include the argument that Ms Witheridge allegedly had been at Koh Tao’s AC Bar with Thai locals that some say she knew previously.

[AleG]

AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact and I've seen no report on that, as far as I'm aware not even a third of the number have actually taken the witness stand.

"As far as I know" is the key phrase there, once again I'm not the one making claims about how many witnesses have or have nottestified, so again, this is false "AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact" because I stated no such thing.

"As far as I know" is not in your post so my question still stands.

No, it's not in my post, it's in your post, they one I was replying to, to make it clear you said "as far as I'm aware not even a third of the number have actually taken the witness stand."

To reiterate:

"as far as I'm aware not even a third of the number have actually taken the witness stand." is the key phrase there, once again I'm not the one making claims about how many witnesses have or have not testified, so again, this is false "AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact" because I stated no such thing.

[thailandchilli]

AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact and I've seen no report on that, as far as I'm aware not even a third of the number have actually taken the witness stand.

"As far as I know" is the key phrase there, once again I'm not the one making claims about how many witnesses have or have nottestified, so again, this is false "AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact" because I stated no such thing.

"As far as I know" is not in your post so my question still stands.

No, it's not in my post, it's in your post, they one I was replying to, to make it clear you said "as far as I'm aware not even a third of the number have actually taken the witness stand."

To reiterate:

"as far as I'm aware not even a third of the number have actually taken the witness stand." is the key phrase there, once again I'm not the one making claims about how many witnesses have or have not testified, so again, this is false "AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact" because I stated no such thing.

I'll let you carry on playing with words to avoid a bickering session

[Basil B]

You lot are going OTT about this. Rambling on and and on and on. 73 pages of rambling - most of which is silly.

Leave it for a couple of days, sleep, and then come back. And continue your ramblings.

We all want what is right, but just leave it for a moment and stop arguing over this and that and the other.

If it wasn't too much bother for you to actually read about the topic, you would know that not everybody who posts here wants what is right. That is why there are so many pages.

Not true at all, we all want to solve the crime so David and Hannah will have justice , we just have different opinions , the reason why we have 73 pages.

Do not forget all the other threads... I have not counted as I just have not the time but there are many thousands of posts, not counting the ones removed.

[JLCrab]

From the above article published today http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/in-depth/16238-koh-tao-accused-to-take-the-stand-as-defence-case-begins.html

“A number of significant leads were not followed up by the police – they only focused on these two men,” Mr Hall said.

Those leads include the argument that Ms Witheridge allegedly had been at Koh Tao’s AC Bar with Thai locals that some say she knew previously.

Well it should not be too hard to find the 'some' if a freelance journalist knows about it.

[thailandchilli]

From the above article published today http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/in-depth/16238-koh-tao-accused-to-take-the-stand-as-defence-case-begins.html

“A number of significant leads were not followed up by the police – they only focused on these two men,” Mr Hall said.

Those leads include the argument that Ms Witheridge allegedly had been at Koh Tao’s AC Bar with Thai locals that some say she knew previously.

Well it should not be too hard to find the 'some' if a freelance journalist knows about it.

A lead means there was already suspicion, the point being it was never followed up by the RTP and they did infact admit this in court already hence the statement above. They were solely focusing on the B2 and nobody else

Edited September 1, 2015 by thailandchilli

[Miss Bangkok]

These are the words which could prove challenging for the accused, pressure from above to the judges, but lets hope they remain impartial.

But Mr Hall and the defence team are under no illusions about the challenge ahead. The defence, he says, still has a battle on its hands “in a case that is backed by the Royal Thai Police and the prime minister himself”

http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/in-depth/16238-koh-tao-accused-to-take-the-stand-as-defence-case-begins.html

[smedly]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Good news summary:This week Ko Zaw Lin and Ko Wai Phyo will take the stand in a court on the Thai island of Koh Samui http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/in-depth/16238-koh-tao-accused-to-take-the-stand-as-defence-case-begins.html …

This is good. One thing I'd like to point out from this article is the way the murderer(s), beat this beautiful ladie's face. Does that not suggest to anyone else extreme anger? To me it strikes as spurned individual who was out of control angry at this lady. Showed him up in front of his friends at the bar, eh?

Must admit I feel there is about to be some sort of dramatic revelation in the coming days and someone is already on the run out of the country

[smedly]

We all come here and post with passion about our opinions. Some of us - like myself - have investigated matters like this in careers, past or present. We come here with our opinions and discuss avenues of investigation, as well as investigative techniques and avenues that have been over looked. Those of us who have given evidence in court likely have been in at least ONE trial, where investigative procedures have been questioned by a good defence team and as a result had their client acquitted by putting a reasonable doubt in the mind of the trier of fact. As much as nobody likes to "lose", I can honestly say that I have never mis-lead evidence or truth in order to convict someone. I know OF other officers who have, and have seen them be punished for it - some even being jailed. I cannot understand why someone would go to the steps of lying. One lie is all it takes to lose your credibility, and it doesn't matter who you are, or what you do, once you are proven a liar - you are a liar.

That brings me to the point - and I am pretty sure that I am going to be sent to the "naughty corner" for saying it. I am calling out a fervent poster on this forum. One who lives to come on here and claim that this investigation is rock solid and knows the two Burmese are guilty. There are some posters who know who I am talking about, and the "guilty party" will know who they are when I post a quote: "Neither myself nor my wife had ever scuba dived......" - This poster put their credibility on the line when they posted this introduction in a review of a business - yet that poster has posted here in 2013 about the dive gear they own, some of the gear they are considering buying, and openly posted photos of themselves SCUBA diving in 2014 on their publicly available social media page.

I know, I know - it is going to be called "stalking" and is going to get removed, and again as I said, I KNOW I am going to be given a vacation. I do not care. I just want the readers of this forum to know that this person is an outright liar and they have a hidden agenda here. This poster comes here to antagonize other posters, but is the first to cry foul when a post is made that they don't agree with. And by the way, it is NOT stalking - it is called knowing who you are up against. Defence lawyers do this all the time - they gather information on the people who are trying to discredit their client - and yes this includes gathering information that is readily available to the public, done with some simple open source searches.

And to assist this poster to have this post brought to the attention of the moderating team - the button is directly below the word "And" at the start of this sentence.

Thanks for sharing, informative and not really much we didn't know or suspect already but great post none the less

[JLCrab]

From the above article published today http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/in-depth/16238-koh-tao-accused-to-take-the-stand-as-defence-case-begins.html

“A number of significant leads were not followed up by the police – they only focused on these two men,” Mr Hall said.

Those leads include the argument that Ms Witheridge allegedly had been at Koh Tao’s AC Bar with Thai locals that some say she knew previously.

Well it should not be too hard to find the 'some' if a freelance journalist knows about it.

A lead means there was already suspicion, the point being it was never followed up by the RTP and they did infact admit this in court already hence the statement above. They were solely focusing on the B2 and nobody else

I believe the guy said it was a rumor. It seems if there was any substantial evidence that Ms. Witheridge had contact with locals it would not have needed to be followed. The alleged contact would have occurred in some public place not in some mystery rendezvous destination that would have indeed required 'following up".

Edited September 1, 2015 by JLCrab

[BritTim]

http://www.norwichadvertiser24.co.uk/news/owner_of_mobile_phone_linking_burmese_migrant_workers_to_hannah_witheridge_murder_never_established_1_4213643

Defence lawyers at the Koh Tao murder trial believe the UK authorities may never have confirmed who owned a mobile phone, cited by Thai police as linking two Burmese migrant workers to the crimes.

But then again, maybe they did? If the UK police that interviewed friends of the deceased did in fact pass on information to the RTP then it may be possible they also cocked up in another area.

Anything is possible, but would this kind of information ever be passed on verbally? Did someone get the UK liaison officer drunk or something? Did the UK liaison officer deliberately ignore protocol and avoid putting anything in writing to avoid incriminating himself? I consider this all unlikely. The witness interviews were different. Local police forces in the UK are not used to dealing with requests for help from half way round the world, and well capable of making this kind of error.

[Fat Haggis]

I'm going to just point out that you admit of not knowing what all the 65 witnesses (66 now it seems) testified yet decided that no evidence was presented, just because you don't know something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Evidence was presented, the phone that some are trying very hard to pretend doesn't matter, DNA evidence, CCTV footage and witness testimony.

Of course it's up to the judge to decide if that evidence warrants a guilt conviction but simply declaring that no evidence was presented is just not true.

And of course YOU DO know that all 65/66 witnesses testified? And YOU DO know the evidence submitted and explained, especially about the mobile phone because you're actually at the trial Alex?

You'll get splinters clutching at all these straws one day Alex.

You're one of the few people who seem to believe that the prosecutions case has been flawless, and rock solid, and right from day 1 you had something against the B2, and were "very protective" towards Koh Tao.

No, I don't know if every single one of the 65 witnesses the prosecution filed with the court took the stand, but I'm not the one making claims about how many of them, if any, didn't show up. It's a matter of epistemic responsibility, you know? Not claiming to know something that is not actually known.

For the record:

This is false: "You're one of the few people who seem to believe that the prosecutions case has been flawless"

This is false too: "right from day 1 you had something against the B2"

And the insinuations in this are also false: "were "very protective" towards Koh Tao"

I'm going to just point out that you admit of not knowing what all the 65 witnesses (66 now it seems) testified yet decided that no evidence was presented

Seems to me Alex that what you actually posted was indeed a claim, as you even stood to correct the number, nowhere in that do you say "there may have been"

I'll not bother responding to your "For the record" comments as I can't really be bothered going all the way back to your original postings on the subject, but lets just say you've been in the gang of four/five who have steadfastly sided with the RTP over this investigation, I stand by what I said.

I'm not alone in what I personally believe. as they say "Up to you" in what you believe. If you think the prosecution and the RTP has done enough, and presented enough "evidence" based on facts to get a conviction, you crack on lad, plenty of us think they've been like fish out of water, and have been "caught out" distorting the truth, forgetting things, that in most countries where they have a better legal and judicial system this would have been turfed out after the 2nd or the 3rd day!!

Do you know what happened to this "Star Witness/Ace up their sleeve" for the prosecution? that another poster allegedly claimed was going to appear? (which they should be banned from the forum for IMHO)

[thailandchilli]

Very good news and we should get some credible reports at the end of the trial from these organizations: http://www.icj.org/

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 11m11 minutes ago

@SZarifi @ICJ_org @AbbottKingsley @CharlieCamp6ell @Reaproy glad ICJ/HRW join Koh Tao trial observation as defense witnesses commence 2mrw

[boomerangutang]

From the above article published today http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/in-depth/16238-koh-tao-accused-to-take-the-stand-as-defence-case-begins.html

“A number of significant leads were not followed up by the police – they only focused on these two men,” Mr Hall said.

Those leads include the argument that Ms Witheridge allegedly had been at Koh Tao’s AC Bar with Thai locals that some say she knew previously.

Well it should not be too hard to find the 'some' if a freelance journalist knows about it.

....a 'freelance journalist' similar to the translator who was threatened and compelled to leave on the 1st day of the trial? Btw, whomever threatened her - was successful, because she quit showing up for the trial after that, and her newspaper ceased covering it.

It would take a particularly brave journalist to do some serious delving in to the real whodunit of the crime. Was the Frenchman found hanged - asking questions? I vaguely recall that the young farang woman found dead in her AC resort room was studying journalism. Is it possible she was asking too many probing questions? Both those deaths happened on KT - since the Sept. crime.

[Rykbanlor]

Lets not get off topic with an incident that is as far as anyone knows unrelated, and focus on the matter in hand, we want this thread open, and hopefully tonight or later tomorrow we will have some better or more revealing news from the court.

[Rykbanlor]

After a little googling I read a wikipedia page which I will not link to, I was going to use the reference URL cited by the page which was not available (wonder why?).

I found it interesting to note that the Asian Human Rights Comission, in it's criticism of the Thai justice system, cited "the rampant use of forced confessions, and the fact that even a senior justice ministry official admitted that 30% of cases went to court with no evidence. "

This is just one reason why so many posters on here do indeed view the whole trial with mistrust and a pessimisstic view of the outcome, and it certainly helps explain how the RTP got their shaky, no, downright staggering case to trial.

[mike313]

You lot are going OTT about this. Rambling on and and on and on. 73 pages of rambling - most of which is silly.

Leave it for a couple of days, sleep, and then come back. And continue your ramblings.

We all want what is right, but just leave it for a moment and stop arguing over this and that and the other.

Everybody who is taking the time to write on here is doing so because they want the truth, I, for one, am very interested in the differing points of view, and arguing this out may help us get to some truth. Keep writing everyone, I am reading continually, keep fighting for the truth and for justice. It's a pity there aren't more people who care about this murder as much as the people on this forum..

[JLCrab]

From the above article published today http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/in-depth/16238-koh-tao-accused-to-take-the-stand-as-defence-case-begins.html

“A number of significant leads were not followed up by the police – they only focused on these two men,” Mr Hall said.

Those leads include the argument that Ms Witheridge allegedly had been at Koh Tao’s AC Bar with Thai locals that some say she knew previously.

Well it should not be too hard to find the 'some' if a freelance journalist knows about it.

....a 'freelance journalist' similar to the translator who was threatened and compelled to leave on the 1st day of the trial? Btw, whomever threatened her - was successful, because she quit showing up for the trial after that, and her newspaper ceased covering it.

It would take a particularly brave journalist to do some serious delving in to the real whodunit of the crime. Was the Frenchman found hanged - asking questions? I vaguely recall that the young farang woman found dead in her AC resort room was studying journalism. Is it possible she was asking too many probing questions? Both those deaths happened on KT - since the Sept. crime.

I said if a freelance journalist can know that 'some' know of Ms. Witheridge's acquaintances, then maybe the defense should be able to find them as well. Other than that it really doesn't take much to set you off, does it? Frenchman?

Edited September 1, 2015 by JLCrab

[stephenterry]

How many senior police officers does it take to say the b2 did it without any evidence to back up their testimony for the court to believe it? Sadly this is the norm in Thailand.

[metisdead]

A reminder to members about a previous public notice:

The thread is now re-opened on a test basis. Please note the following guidance:

1) Absolutely no bickering allowed. We have on this forum a number of people with opinions set in stone, both for and against the guilt of the accused (despite the fact that the trial has not even finished). Most of these members, on both "sides" of the issue, will not change their minds based on information or views provided by others. Do not attempt to "persuade" them, as experience has shown this leads nowhere.

Any violation of this will lead to the immediate suspension of all parties involved. We are not going to attempt to wade through multiple posts to who "started" it or who was more at fault than who. Everyone who bickers will be penalized.

2) Post in a manner respectful of the fact that this is not an armchair "whodunnit" for anyone's private entertainment but rather a terrible tragic event affecting flesh and blood people. Treating it as a game or puzzle is highly insensitive and disrespectful of the deceased, their families, and the accused and their families.

Posts and replies in violation of the above have been removed, and some members may be headed for a holiday.

[stephenterry]

As is a miscarriage of justice, which could be the outcome.

[stephenterry]

Thanks