Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[AleG]

There is nothing to disprove my assertions. And there is nothing to substantiate yours. It's hearsay.

You invariably resort to the formula "I don't know about this or that, therefore I can declare with absolute certainty what is the truth and what isn't"

Whereas I take the trouble of actually looking for citations to support the things I say.

You may think your methodology has anything to do with finding the truth but it doesn't, not by a long shot. All you do is contribute to the confusion and cluttering that you decry without contributing anything of real value to the purpose of establishing the truth.

[mcm991]

Not trying to be smarter than the rest but just asking:

What is the value of any DNA evidence and retesting if "no proper conditions were observed and recorded in obtaining the samples"?

DNA test results may be basis for conviction only if there is "no way it can be concocted at collection point".

Yes, if "no proper conditions were observed and recording the samples" then it can be seen how that would affect the validity of the results.

Your second point, I'm still waiting to hear how semen from the men on trial would had been planted inside the body of one of the victims, AKA evidence "concocted at the collection point".

It's all fine and dandy to throw around baseless speculation... why, no it is not in a case like this, but I digress. It's another to actually construct a credible, substantiated argument to explain things.

The later is hard and I can see why some people would rather give up, declare the truth is what they want to believe anyway and be done with it.

Such a terrrible pity that all that DNA was 'all used up' so nobody can actually verify, examine, restest or question the results of that sample ......

(it's like a kindergarden excuse only not as believable. Typical samples retrieved from rape victims are usually sufficient for several thousand tests. You just can't make this stuff up. You'd need to have the mental agility of a 2 year old to believe this story as told.)

[Shermanator]

Funny (or better, shocking) to see that there are some people here, who (after all the plainly visible and obvious f-ups) believe in the official story told by the RTP... This is like trying to make anyone here believe in Santa Claus again... are these guys for real???

Someone wrote that the DNA samples were stored in the mafia kingpin's fridge for the first night or so. If that accusation is true, this - in combination with police cruelty and torture - alone would make this a "no case" in any given western court... What's going on here?

Edited September 2, 2015 by Shermanator

[newcomer71]

Funny (or better, shocking) to see that there are some people here, who believe (after all the visible and obvious f-ups) in the official story told by the RTP... This is like trying to make anyone here believe in Santa Claus again... are these guys for real???

Also funny to see someone still trying to make them change idea, they will never do, so better give up? /me think.

[KunMatt]

It's interesting that Hannah's family are back in court now the defense have begun.

Hannah's parents are smart and at thr end of the trial, whatever the official verdict, they will know themselves what the truth really is.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Zaw Lin accused of Koh Tao murders takes the stand as the defense present their case

KOH SAMUI: -- Zaw Lin, one of the two migrant workers charged with the Koh Tao murders took the stand in Koh Samui Provincial court today, 2nd September 2015, a day later than expected. After twelve days of prosecution evidence one further day was required for the testimony of a senior police officer who took the stand on the 1st of September in a hearing that did not close until 1.02am.

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family. 22 year old Zaw Lin faced the judges with a translator to his left. Giving his testimony in Burmese the accused was questioned by the defense team on his movements on the night of the murders.

Bar worker Zaw Lin seemed confident in delivering his testimony despite the stressful situation. His mother as well as the mother of his co-accused Wei Phyo, were also in the court room.

After initially confessing to the crime, both Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo, both from Rakhine State, retracted their confessions claiming their admission of guilt was the result of torture. Although the police strenuously deny any allegations of torture a cell mate of the accused testified he had seen wounds on the accused bodies and Zaw Lin was taken to Samui Hospital complaining of chest pains after his incarceration.

The court also heard that the accused were initially questioned by the police via translators from Myanmar who do not speak the Rakhine dialect or have full comprehension of the Thai language. The witnesses for the prosecution have largely been police officers. DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented, however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month.

The trial that started on the 8th of July, will break once again after today’s hearing, originally due to reconvene on the 22nd of September the 11th has now been earmarked as an additional date for the defense team.

-- Samui Times 2015-09-02

So here it is:

"DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented"

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

The DNA Evidence is very much alive AleG.

As Andy pointed out on page 83:

"Many people asking what is Koh Tao defense team task. Quite simply explain accused confessions, substantiate torture and question DNA match."

If all this was dropped by the court already I see no reason why the Defense Team would have the task now to try and explain this.

Do You?

[Aj Mick]

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

Please explain why we should believe anything you write about this subject Ale...... G.....? Don't get out of your depth Sir!

Have not you already disqualified yourself from any level of truthfulness in your previous posts and/or reviews?

No, I have not disqualified myself on anything; if anything those would had been the ones that insisted that no evidence has been presented against the defendants.

True, you have not disqualified yourself, but most others have have because, despite what you insist, no credible evidence has been presented against the defendants.

[Shermanator]

It's interesting that Hannah's family are back in court now the defense have begun.

Hannah's parents are smart and at thr end of the trial, whatever the official verdict, they will know themselves what the truth really is.

"Hannah's parents are smart and at..." excuse me, sir!!! If I remember correctly, I read in another forum quite some time ago that the victims' parents stated they were "happy" with the RTP investigation, which has been a major <deleted> from start to finish. If you refer to that as "smart", then I assume you perhaps don't even now what the word "stupid" means...

[BritTim]

Not trying to be smarter than the rest but just asking:

What is the value of any DNA evidence and retesting if "no proper conditions were observed and recorded in obtaining the samples"?

DNA test results may be basis for conviction only if there is "no way it can be concocted at collection point".

Yes, if "no proper conditions were observed and recording the samples" then it can be seen how that would affect the validity of the results.

Your second point, I'm still waiting to hear how semen from the men on trial would had been planted inside the body of one of the victims, AKA evidence "concocted at the collection point".

It's all fine and dandy to throw around baseless speculation... why, no it is not in a case like this, but I digress. It's another to actually construct a credible, substantiated argument to explain things.

The later is hard and I can see why some people would rather give up, declare the truth is what they want to believe anyway and be done with it.

Such a terrrible pity that all that DNA was 'all used up' so nobody can actually verify, examine, restest or question the results of that sample ......

(it's like a kindergarden excuse only not as believable. Typical samples retrieved from rape victims are usually sufficient for several thousand tests. You just can't make this stuff up. You'd need to have the mental agility of a 2 year old to believe this story as told.)

To be objective, I need to point out that this is not totally accurate. The prosecution evidence is contradictory on this point. The witness who carried out some of the DNA tests indicated that samples were preserved. However, I think there is consensus that the hair found in Hannah's hand, known not to be from Hannah, David or the Burmese kids, has disappeared. Having a top laboratory test the root of that hair for DNA would be most interesting.

[AleG]

Yes, if "no proper conditions were observed and recording the samples" then it can be seen how that would affect the validity of the results.

Your second point, I'm still waiting to hear how semen from the men on trial would had been planted inside the body of one of the victims, AKA evidence "concocted at the collection point".

It's all fine and dandy to throw around baseless speculation... why, no it is not in a case like this, but I digress. It's another to actually construct a credible, substantiated argument to explain things.

The later is hard and I can see why some people would rather give up, declare the truth is what they want to believe anyway and be done with it.

Such a terrrible pity that all that DNA was 'all used up' so nobody can actually verify, examine, restest or question the results of that sample ......

(it's like a kindergarden excuse only not as believable. Typical samples retrieved from rape victims are usually sufficient for several thousand tests. You just can't make this stuff up. You'd need to have the mental agility of a 2 year old to believe this story as told.)

The samples were made available for the defense to retest, they refused.

Cite:

“The court said that lawyers are free to request all the DNA samples for independent DNA testing at any time,” Nakhon told Reuters, adding that a forensic expert testified that DNA swabs from the crime scene had been duplicated in a laboratory, so samples were still available."

And cite:

"The defence team in the Koh Tao murder trial has dramatically reversed its demands to retest the DNA found on the body of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and said they “don’t need it any more.”

Now let's see who is the next one to pretend not to know this and repeat the meme that all the DNA was used up...

[Shermanator]

Funny (or better, shocking) to see that there are some people here, who believe (after all the visible and obvious f-ups) in the official story told by the RTP... This is like trying to make anyone here believe in Santa Claus again... are these guys for real???

Also funny to see someone still trying to make them change idea, they will never do, so better give up? /me think.

Yeah, they are best ignored because taking them seriously and trying to argument against them would give them the feeling that they have a point. Simply ignoring them takes all the energy away from them and their posts would eventually die out...

[stephenterry]

There is nothing to disprove my assertions. And there is nothing to substantiate yours. It's hearsay.

You invariably resort to the formula "I don't know about this or that, therefore I can declare with absolute certainty what is the truth and what isn't"

Whereas I take the trouble of actually looking for citations to support the things I say.

You may think your methodology has anything to do with finding the truth but it doesn't, not by a long shot. All you do is contribute to the confusion and cluttering that you decry without contributing anything of real value to the purpose of establishing the truth.

I don't agree. All you do is to quote what the rtp say. Nothing they have testified has been substantiated.

[AleG]

So here it is:

"DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented"

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

The DNA Evidence is very much alive AleG.

As Andy pointed out on page 83:

"Many people asking what is Koh Tao defense team task. Quite simply explain accused confessions, substantiate torture and question DNA match."

If all this was dropped by the court already I see no reason why the Defense Team would have the task now to try and explain this.

Do You?

No, I don't.

So it beggars belief that other people would honestly continue to argue the point.

[KunMatt]

It's interesting that Hannah's family are back in court now the defense have begun.

Hannah's parents are smart and at thr end of the trial, whatever the official verdict, they will know themselves what the truth really is.

"Hannah's parents are smart and at..." excuse me, sir!!! If I remember correctly, I read in another forum quite some time ago that the victims' parents stated they were "happy" with the RTP investigation, which has been a major cluster-F from start to finish. If you refer to that as "smart", then I assume you perhaps don't even now what the word "stupid" means...

So now you are saying that the victim's famy are stupid?? Very tactful of you.

And yes, I believe that the RTP were quoted as saying that.

However it sounds like Hannah's family are now close with the defense. Isn't that a bit strange? Would you be friendly with the lawyers of the suspects if you were happy there was a strong case against them?

[T_Dog]

Good video, summing up the investigation cockups:

Did the wounds on Miller's head every come up in testimony? They appear to be delivered more so by a shark tooth ring that has been shown on other sites rather than a hoe.

[Shermanator]

It's interesting that Hannah's family are back in court now the defense have begun.

Hannah's parents are smart and at thr end of the trial, whatever the official verdict, they will know themselves what the truth really is.

"Hannah's parents are smart and at..." excuse me, sir!!! If I remember correctly, I read in another forum quite some time ago that the victims' parents stated they were "happy" with the RTP investigation, which has been a major cluster-F from start to finish. If you refer to that as "smart", then I assume you perhaps don't even now what the word "stupid" means...

So now you are saying that the victim's famy are stupid?? Very tactful of you.

And yes, I believe that the RTP were quoted as saying that.

However it sounds like Hannah's family are now close with the defense. Isn't that a bit strange? Would you be friendly with the lawyers of the suspects if you were happy there was a strong case against them?

No, you actually said that. Perhaps you have been outsmarted by the Shermanator

[stephenterry]

So here it is:

"DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented"

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

The DNA Evidence is very much alive AleG.

As Andy pointed out on page 83:

"Many people asking what is Koh Tao defense team task. Quite simply explain accused confessions, substantiate torture and question DNA match."

If all this was dropped by the court already I see no reason why the Defense Team would have the task now to try and explain this.

Do You?

No, I don't.

So it beggars belief that other people would honestly continue to argue the point.

IT'S up to the defence to explain. It beggars belief that a few posters would continue to argue the point.

[mcm991]

Yes, if "no proper conditions were observed and recording the samples" then it can be seen how that would affect the validity of the results.

Your second point, I'm still waiting to hear how semen from the men on trial would had been planted inside the body of one of the victims, AKA evidence "concocted at the collection point".

It's all fine and dandy to throw around baseless speculation... why, no it is not in a case like this, but I digress. It's another to actually construct a credible, substantiated argument to explain things.

The later is hard and I can see why some people would rather give up, declare the truth is what they want to believe anyway and be done with it.

Such a terrrible pity that all that DNA was 'all used up' so nobody can actually verify, examine, restest or question the results of that sample ......

(it's like a kindergarden excuse only not as believable. Typical samples retrieved from rape victims are usually sufficient for several thousand tests. You just can't make this stuff up. You'd need to have the mental agility of a 2 year old to believe this story as told.)

The samples were made available for the defense to retest, they refused.

Cite:

“The court said that lawyers are free to request all the DNA samples for independent DNA testing at any time,” Nakhon told Reuters, adding that a forensic expert testified that DNA swabs from the crime scene had been duplicated in a laboratory, so samples were still available."

And cite:

"The defence team in the Koh Tao murder trial has dramatically reversed its demands to retest the DNA found on the body of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and said they “don’t need it any more.”

Now let's see who is the next one to pretend not to know this and repeat the meme that all the DNA was used up...

From your own quote ......

'On Thursday, police forensic expert Kewalee Chanpan told a court on Samui island, site of the trial, that all genetic material tested in a lab was replicated and saved, but that it deteriorated over time.'

I'll need to invoke the knowledge of the posters here who are more familiar with DNA testing ......

but to me this 'wasn't used up' thing has morphed into plan B which stinks as much.

'Genetic material was replicated' - IMO directly from Star Trek. What is this replication that you speak of?

and

'but that it deteriorated over time' casually makes DNA out to be like yoghurt that has a best before date.

Is this forensic expert for real?

Are you comfortable with this explanation AleG?

Perhaps I am misinformed about this whole DNA thing ... somebody please help me.

[stephenterry]

Yes, if "no proper conditions were observed and recording the samples" then it can be seen how that would affect the validity of the results.

Your second point, I'm still waiting to hear how semen from the men on trial would had been planted inside the body of one of the victims, AKA evidence "concocted at the collection point".

It's all fine and dandy to throw around baseless speculation... why, no it is not in a case like this, but I digress. It's another to actually construct a credible, substantiated argument to explain things.

The later is hard and I can see why some people would rather give up, declare the truth is what they want to believe anyway and be done with it.

Such a terrrible pity that all that DNA was 'all used up' so nobody can actually verify, examine, restest or question the results of that sample ......

(it's like a kindergarden excuse only not as believable. Typical samples retrieved from rape victims are usually sufficient for several thousand tests. You just can't make this stuff up. You'd need to have the mental agility of a 2 year old to believe this story as told.)

The samples were made available for the defense to retest, they refused.

Cite:

“The court said that lawyers are free to request all the DNA samples for independent DNA testing at any time,” Nakhon told Reuters, adding that a forensic expert testified that DNA swabs from the crime scene had been duplicated in a laboratory, so samples were still available."

And cite:

"The defence team in the Koh Tao murder trial has dramatically reversed its demands to retest the DNA found on the body of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and said they “don’t need it any more.”

Now let's see who is the next one to pretend not to know this and repeat the meme that all the DNA was used up...

As you are quite aware your comments have been found to be inaccurate. Why continue to present B/S?

[GOLDBUGGY]

I'll give you a hint, GB, it wasn't the b2. As long as I draw breath there is NO substantiated evidence to convict the b2.

Then you disagree with Andy then on Page 83.

I haven't said anything about evidence except I never heard a court dismiss anything that has been presented so far. Have you?

[Shermanator]

Good video, summing up the investigation cockups:

Did the wounds on Miller's head every come up in testimony? They appear to be delivered more so by a shark tooth ring that has been shown on other sites rather than a hoe.

Correct! Wounds were shallow and inflicted by a ray tooth ring or a push dagger. Inflicted by a left hander of equal size to David, not by a dwarf. Think the Burma guys are both right handers. Might point to whom they call "Stingray Man", bouncer at the bar where David and Hannah were part of a "conflict" that included Thais, most likely because one of the Thais started to fondle and/or insult Hannah. This has neven been investigated. Ray Shark man later posed with a hoe for a photo that basically insulted the victims once more. Some posts in other forums said that he was accused of trying to rape a blonde western girl some months before. She was able to jump off the balcony and flee from the apartment where the attack took place. Here he is - a cold blooded and sadistic person as he is described by KT locals in forums and on the street. Even though all this might be referred to as hearsay, I think that it tells a lot about a person's mindset if he proudly poses with a tool similar to the gruesome murder weapon for anyone to see...

Edited September 2, 2015 by Shermanator

[stephenterry]

I'll give you a hint, GB, it wasn't the b2. As long as I draw breath there is NO substantiated evidence to convict the b2.

Then you disagree with Andy then on Page 83.

I haven't said anything about evidence except I never heard a court dismiss anything that has been presented so far. Have you?

the defence has to contest the rtp assertions. Not my job.

[GOLDBUGGY]

BREAKING NEWS............ Just released from inside the court room in Koh Samui

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/i_was_tortured_to_confess_murdering_hannah_witheridge_accused_tells_court_today_1_4216927

He said he was taken to a location, which was not a police station, and separated from the others where he was asked if he murdered Ms Witheridge and fellow backpacker David Miller from Jersey on September 15 2014.

Zaw Lin then told the court in Koh Samui, Thailand, today that the men asked him some questions through a translator before stripping him naked in an air conditioned room and putting a plastic bag tightly over his head.

“I bit through the bag to be able to breathe so they put another bag on top of that one and the translator asked me: “Did you kill?” When I said “No”, they put another bag over my head and pulled it tight around my neck.

And from this same report -

The friend, known affectionately to the two men as Mao Mao, who was also a Burmese migrant worker, has not testified. The prosecution took a statement from him at the time but they say they no longer know his whereabouts. Mao Mao worked at the bar where Zaw Lin claimed to have hidden the guitar.

This is Maung Maung they are talking about and the prosecution say they no longer know of his whereabouts! Does anyone know of his whereabouts or whether he is still alive!!

I know he did a Newspaper Interview with the Myanmar News afterwards and from back home, but where he is now is anyone's guess.

[springheeled jack]

i have commented on this case before and I still maintain that the verdict is already in these 2 boys will be found guilty to appease the families of the victims .

[Shermanator]

Forgot to mention, that this bloke, Sean who was carrying around a guitar full with blood splatter, had similar stab wounds on his arms and legs:

[Rykbanlor]

Shermanator, the guy whose picture you have posted is a different guy from the ring guy.

[Wadan]

These are interesting times.

[Wadan]

Now we can see what the defense has

[boomerangutang]

I had assumed all along that DNA typing was only available to RTP and (later on) prosecutors. However, Headman family/friends' shielders had often written, in these T.Visa threads that essentially everyone had direct access to the DNA typing cards. I distinctly recall JohnThailandJohn posting several times that DNA typing (in this case) was sent to specialists and labs in many places, within and outside of Thailand. I had always doubted that, and now we have proof that's not true. In sum: it backs up my (and many others') assertions that all this talk by RTP for the past 11 months about 'B2 DNA matching and Nomsod's not matching' was/is completely the off-the-cuff blabberings of top brass police - directing how they want the scenario to play out.

I dearly hope, if it's proven that top brass RTP have intentionally misrepresented key data, that they're disciplined to the full extent. No warnings, no pats on the back, no assignments to inactive post BS .....but real unmitigated criminal proceedings. In a less corrupt country, people who are paid and trusted to uphold the law are given more severe sentences than regular people who break the same sorts of laws.

[Wadan]

i think the prosecution won