Another Red Wine Box

[backstairs]

Just purchased a 5 litre box of Australian wine called Camden Park. Odd name and odd box with a map of a cow on the side. Boasts that it is good with Thai food.

So I poured myself a glass and sipped dubiously. Phew. Wow. Cor. What? Fruity. Berries a plenty and then, the kick.

Gosh this is just what the haematologist recommended. Tonight, I am going to try it with sushi.

Anyone else got anything good to say about it?

[tolsti]

Reviews seem OK.... Where did you get it from and how much?

[Shot]

Makro has it. Can't remember the price but it was even or a bit cheaper than Montclair.

[backstairs]

Villa Market. THB 899. So 5 litres means 180 baht a litre.

[tolsti]

Thanks backstairs.

[Stray]

Wine mixed with fruit juice. Becoming more popular in SE Asia as the locals like the sweet flavour that is not common with normal wine.

[Torrens54]

Sounds Okay, just make sure you don't buy the one with the MAD COW on the Box.

[nidieunimaitre]

How much % alcohol?

White wine too?

I assume it is a mix of wine and fruit juice, if the taste is reasonable, why not.

But to get say 12% when mixing wine and juice, surely pure alcohol must be added - I never see that mentioned on the boxes.

[pitchag]

I bought a box by mistake it is horrible who in their right mind would add unfermented fruit berries to a red white, it now sits on my kitchen shelf it is only good enought to be used as cooking wine, next time I will read the whole box to make sure no fruit is added. If you love red wine you will hate this crap

Edited August 28, 2015 by pitchag

[Old Croc]

One Man's Wine Is Another Man's Poison

[craigt3365]

It's not wine. They import the fruit juice so they can avoid the taxes and then turn it into an "alcoholic" beverage here. It's horrible stuff. Gives me a massive hangover. But then again, so does real red wine! LOL

http://www.bkkpsp.com/Cheap-Wines-In-Thailand.html

[Yme]

Wine mixed with fruit juice. Becoming more popular in SE Asia as the locals like the sweet flavour that is not common with normal wine.

More to do with import tariffs than "the locals like the sweet taste".

[xylophone]

Wine mixed with fruit juice. Becoming more popular in SE Asia as the locals like the sweet flavour that is not common with normal wine.

More to do with import tariffs than "the locals like the sweet taste".

True and the wine and fruit juice mix also gives me a headache............."hundreds" of comments about this on the "Montclair Wine" thread plus lists of other wines with this mix.

[Peterocket]

Is it a fruit wine or a real wine?

The bottles of Camden Park are ok

[grumpyoldman]

Plonk !

[circusman]

Wine mixed with fruit juice. Becoming more popular in SE Asia as the locals like the sweet flavour that is not common with normal wine.

Normal wine you say ? There is no normal wine. Comes in all flavors, sweet, not sweet etc etc.

[ameadi]

OMG drink beer and let it be wine. Not for all.

[shaurene]

Sounds Okay, just make sure you don't buy the one with the MAD COW on the Box.

Mad Cow. Reminds me of the big Mad Cow disease in the UK years back. A guy was in Miami with his wife from England and they went into This New York Steah House, waiter came and the guy said "I will have one of your Rump Steaks" and the waiter said "what about the Mad Cow" .The Guy said "she will have a Grilled Chicken Breast"

[h90]

It's not wine. They import the fruit juice so they can avoid the taxes and then turn it into an "alcoholic" beverage here. It's horrible stuff. Gives me a massive hangover. But then again, so does real red wine! LOL

http://www.bkkpsp.com/Cheap-Wines-In-Thailand.html

Are you sure with that fruit wine?

Because as no fruit is mentioned I would assume the fruit is grape. It might be just a language/law issue as every wine is "fruit wine"?

If they would add, say blueberry juice, they would have to label the blueberry....Beside that grape is already the cheapest thing you can get, any other fruit juice would be more expensive.

[lgking]

It's not wine. They import the fruit juice so they can avoid the taxes and then turn it into an "alcoholic" beverage here. It's horrible stuff. Gives me a massive hangover. But then again, so does real red wine! LOL

http://www.bkkpsp.com/Cheap-Wines-In-Thailand.html

Are you sure with that fruit wine?

Because as no fruit is mentioned I would assume the fruit is grape. It might be just a language/law issue as every wine is "fruit wine"?

If they would add, say blueberry juice, they would have to label the blueberry....Beside that grape is already the cheapest thing you can get, any other fruit juice would be more expensive.

I agree with h90...Grapes ARE fruit.

The 'fruitiness' of the wines come from a winemakers blending of various grape varieties. I too doubt there is any 'real' fruit-juice added (other than grape). They are just excercising a loophole and Thai-ignorance of the wine-making process to bring us 'plonk' wine at even cheaper prices.

As for the article cited, and the benefits to Thailand over lowering taxes = selling more = greater overall revenues...will not be absorbed or understood by any local Thai government official(s)....that would be wishful thingking.

Edited August 28, 2015 by lgking

[Sparkles]

Villa Market. THB 899. So 5 litres means 180 baht a litre.

Its pretty vile but so is all wines imported with fruit juice added to avoid tax.For diabetics its full of sugar.

By the way its a "cask" not a "box" invented in Australia for selling cheap wine but now accepted by wine snobs and you can get some really good wines in a cask but not in Thailand.Decent wine in a bottle is 100% taxed.

Thailand could have a great wine industry, they need OS experts to come in and show them how to make it but "loss of face " seems to be a problem.

One producer of fruit wine in the north said to me "we know what we are doing " Sorry you don't

[RT85]

the headaches are likely caused from the HEAVY use of sulphides in cheap wines..

check the label

[partington]

It's not wine. They import the fruit juice so they can avoid the taxes and then turn it into an "alcoholic" beverage here. It's horrible stuff. Gives me a massive hangover. But then again, so does real red wine! LOL

http://www.bkkpsp.com/Cheap-Wines-In-Thailand.html

Are you sure with that fruit wine?

Because as no fruit is mentioned I would assume the fruit is grape. It might be just a language/law issue as every wine is "fruit wine"?

If they would add, say blueberry juice, they would have to label the blueberry....Beside that grape is already the cheapest thing you can get, any other fruit juice would be more expensive.

I agree with h90...Grapes ARE fruit.

The 'fruitiness' of the wines come from a winemakers blending of various grape varieties. I too doubt there is any 'real' fruit-juice added (other than grape). They are just excercising a loophole and Thai-ignorance of the wine-making process to bring us 'plonk' wine at even cheaper prices.

As for the article cited, and the benefits to Thailand over lowering taxes = selling more = greater overall revenues...will not be absorbed or understood by any local Thai government official(s)....that would be wishful thingking.

I agree with you and h90. This stuff about wine imported as wine with fruit juice added to it must be a misunderstanding - the point must be that there is no import duty on fruit juice, not that there is no import duty on wine with fruit juice added to it - it would still be wine then, and still highly alcoholic, so why would duty disappear?

What they mean is:

1. The fruit juice, which must be entirely or nearly entirely grape juice, is imported say from Australia. There is

no import duty on grape juice just as there isn't on orange juice or grapefruit juice.

2. Subsequently in Thailand they make wine out of the grape juice by adding yeast and allowing it to ferment,

either not to completion so some sugar is left, or to completion so there is little or no sugar left, just as they

would do in France or Australia.

In effect they are doing what any wine producer does except instead of transporting the grape juice 50 or 100km to a winery, they are transporting it 1000s of km.

You cannot get wine to be more than about 15% alcohol through natural fermentation because the yeast dies. Some of these wine boxes are 13% alcohol- it is hard to see much fruit juice could be added to these!

I think this is largely a misunderstanding. The very sweet wines may result from incomplete fermentation -this may be how the market likes it.

Fruit wines are not by definition sweet- the sweetness depends on how much fermentation you allow, that is, how much of the sugar in the original juice is turned to alcohol, and thus removed. You can make wine out of many fruits.

Edited August 28, 2015 by partington

[Chalard]

It's not wine. They import the fruit juice so they can avoid the taxes and then turn it into an "alcoholic" beverage here. It's horrible stuff. Gives me a massive hangover. But then again, so does real red wine! LOL

http://www.bkkpsp.com/Cheap-Wines-In-Thailand.html

Are you sure with that fruit wine?

Because as no fruit is mentioned I would assume the fruit is grape. It might be just a language/law issue as every wine is "fruit wine"?

If they would add, say blueberry juice, they would have to label the blueberry....Beside that grape is already the cheapest thing you can get, any other fruit juice would be more expensive.

If you didn't read the link that craigt3365 attached

Fruit wine has an orange tax sticker on it. And it does say in very small writing on the back label, Fruit Wine

Unaltered wine has a blue sticker over the cap

I've tried the Mar Sol wines, not bad either

[xylophone]

It's not wine. They import the fruit juice so they can avoid the taxes and then turn it into an "alcoholic" beverage here. It's horrible stuff. Gives me a massive hangover. But then again, so does real red wine! LOL

http://www.bkkpsp.com/Cheap-Wines-In-Thailand.html

Are you sure with that fruit wine?

Because as no fruit is mentioned I would assume the fruit is grape. It might be just a language/law issue as every wine is "fruit wine"?

If they would add, say blueberry juice, they would have to label the blueberry....Beside that grape is already the cheapest thing you can get, any other fruit juice would be more expensive.

I agree with h90...Grapes ARE fruit.

The 'fruitiness' of the wines come from a winemakers blending of various grape varieties. I too doubt there is any 'real' fruit-juice added (other than grape). They are just excercising a loophole and Thai-ignorance of the wine-making process to bring us 'plonk' wine at even cheaper prices.

As for the article cited, and the benefits to Thailand over lowering taxes = selling more = greater overall revenues...will not be absorbed or understood by any local Thai government official(s)....that would be wishful thingking.

This has been done to death in the Montclair thread and the definition of wine (more to follow on that) is that it must be made from grapes. Fruit juice is added to get around the various taxes and "fruit wine" like that is being produced not only in Vietnam and Thailand, but in Australia, France, Italy and the USA........... and somewhere on the label it has to say "fruit wine".

This from Grant Smith (wine taster, importer/exporter and connoisseur)............"it has been established and agreed upon, that, for an alcoholic beverage to be deemed "wine" it must contain 100% grape content.

Anything else is to be termed "Fruit Wine".

And this from yours truly, from the Montclair thread...........

"1). “Within the European Union (and now worldwide), the term "wine" in English and in translation is reserved exclusively for the fermented juice of grapes”.

2).“As a body of reference in the area of vine and wine the OIV develops definitions and descriptions of the vitivinicultural products in order to contribute to international legal harmonization and to improve the development and marketing of vitivinicultural products.

The definitions of vitivinicultural products are included in the first part of the International Code of Oenological Practices

3). “An alcoholic drink made from fermented grape juice”.

4). “By law: wine means the product of the complete or partial fermentation of fresh grapes, or a mixture of that product and products derived solely from grapes”. (Food Standards Code).

And finally, the bottle of Camden Park wine illustrated is not likely to be the one which contains fruit juice because it is from a few years ago, however the recent imports to Thailand of Camden Park wine which are priced at under 299 baht (269 baht I think) do contain fruit juice and you can find out by reading about it on the label.

So please, no more arguing about what is what, because it's pretty straightforward and as I said before, it's been done to death and you only have to read some of the posts on the Montclair thread about it.

[Chalard]

Villa Market. THB 899. So 5 litres means 180 baht a litre.

Its pretty vile but so is all wines imported with fruit juice added to avoid tax.For diabetics its full of sugar.

By the way its a "cask" not a "box" invented in Australia for selling cheap wine but now accepted by wine snobs and you can get some really good wines in a cask but not in Thailand.Decent wine in a bottle is 100% taxed.

Thailand could have a great wine industry, they need OS experts to come in and show them how to make it but "loss of face " seems to be a problem.

One producer of fruit wine in the north said to me "we know what we are doing " Sorry you don't

They do have some winemakers here from overseas or who have studied overseas

Thailands climate is a bit hot for making great wines

[NamKangMan]

Given this wine's cheap price, and the fact it can be bought in a 5L box, I wonder if restaurants will start selling this label as their "house wine?"

[xylophone]

It's not wine. They import the fruit juice so they can avoid the taxes and then turn it into an "alcoholic" beverage here. It's horrible stuff. Gives me a massive hangover. But then again, so does real red wine! LOL

http://www.bkkpsp.com/Cheap-Wines-In-Thailand.html

Are you sure with that fruit wine?

Because as no fruit is mentioned I would assume the fruit is grape. It might be just a language/law issue as every wine is "fruit wine"?

If they would add, say blueberry juice, they would have to label the blueberry....Beside that grape is already the cheapest thing you can get, any other fruit juice would be more expensive.

I agree with h90...Grapes ARE fruit.

The 'fruitiness' of the wines come from a winemakers blending of various grape varieties. I too doubt there is any 'real' fruit-juice added (other than grape). They are just excercising a loophole and Thai-ignorance of the wine-making process to bring us 'plonk' wine at even cheaper prices.

As for the article cited, and the benefits to Thailand over lowering taxes = selling more = greater overall revenues...will not be absorbed or understood by any local Thai government official(s)....that would be wishful thingking.

I agree with you and h90. This stuff about wine imported as wine with fruit juice added to it must be a misunderstanding - the point must be that there is no import duty on fruit juice, not that there is no import duty on wine with fruit juice added to it - it would still be wine then, and still highly alcoholic, so why would duty disappear?

What they mean is:

1. The fruit juice, which must be entirely or nearly entirely grape juice, is imported say from Australia. There is

no import duty on grape juice just as there isn't on orange juice or grapefruit juice.

2. Subsequently in Thailand they make wine out of the grape juice by adding yeast and allowing it to ferment,

either not to completion so some sugar is left, or to completion so there is little or no sugar left, just as they

would do in France or Australia.

In effect they are doing what any wine producer does except instead of transporting the grape juice 50 or 100km to a winery, they are transporting it 1000s of km.

You cannot get wine to be more than about 15% alcohol through natural fermentation because the yeast dies. Some of these wine boxes are 13% alcohol- it is hard to see much fruit juice could be added to these!

I think this is largely a misunderstanding. The very sweet wines may result from incomplete fermentation -this may be how the market likes it.

Fruit wines are not by definition sweet- the sweetness depends on how much fermentation you allow, that is, how much of the sugar in the original juice is turned to alcohol, and thus removed. You can make wine out of many fruits.

Sorry to have to disagree with you Partington, but many "wines" are imported from Italy, France, Australia, the USA and Vietnam with fruit juice already added in those countries of origin.

Siam winery brings in grape juice and ferments it here and adds fruit juice and Roselle juice (Hibiscus) to its Montclair wine and I don't know what is added to the other wines it ferments here, but the giveaway on the label in small print is "fruit wine" and try as it might, it can't get away without putting that on the label, that's why you will always find it somewhere, even if it is hidden away.

I've just noticed the latest import of wine from Australia called "Gossips" and it is in 5 L casks and it quite clearly states on the side that fruit juice is added. It will no doubt confuse the market because their bottles of "Gossips" priced at around 514 baht per bottle, do not contain fruit juice.

If you go to Wine Connection and look at their "Jump Yards" "wine", on the back you will see the words "fruit wine" and you will also notice that it is bottled in Vietnam– – I do know what fruit is added to this wine and their white wine equivalent, however I prefer not to state that here.

Sure enough you can make "wine" out of any fruits, but international law/labelling says that it now must be called "fruit wine" and the term wine can only be used to describe the beverage made purely from grapes.

See my previous post and many on Montclair thread for a fuller explanation.

[backstairs]

Well as the original poster I have learnt a few things. Thank you. Cask not box. Fruit. Grape. Alcohol content. I have just looked at the bo....cask. 12.5% alc.

I am no expert. I know I like Syrah. I bought the Camden out of curioisity. Bottom line; I love the taste, it made me wanna have another glass and I did not have a hangover. I really like it.

I am reminded of an anecdote from my days liviing in Mexico. Top ***** hotel. Wine waiter comes over. French. So my guest speaks to him in French. 'Monsieur que'est......transl: What is the best wine for us this evening in Mexico?"

He looked left and right as if about to tell us a secret. 'Well, he said. Wine does not travel. Go for Los Reyes. The Mexican red.' My French friend was astounded but ordered the Los Reyes red. And really liked it.

[xylophone]

Well as the original poster I have learnt a few things. Thank you. Cask not box. Fruit. Grape. Alcohol content. I have just looked at the bo....cask. 12.5% alc.

I am no expert. I know I like Syrah. I bought the Camden out of curioisity. Bottom line; I love the taste, it made me wanna have another glass and I did not have a hangover. I really like it.

I am reminded of an anecdote from my days liviing in Mexico. Top ***** hotel. Wine waiter comes over. French. So my guest speaks to him in French. 'Monsieur que'est......transl: What is the best wine for us this evening in Mexico?"

He looked left and right as if about to tell us a secret. 'Well, he said. Wine does not travel. Go for Los Reyes. The Mexican red.' My French friend was astounded but ordered the Los Reyes red. And really liked it.

Like your little anecdote "backstairs".

If you like the wine, then great as that's all that really matters and it's nobody else's business in reality.

When this subject was first broached in the Montclair thread sometime ago, it was before there were more than a couple of these types of wines here, Montclair being a prime one and the main discussion was over the fact that fruit juice was added, but wasn't disclosed clearly..........and that was the point, if you are going to add fruit juice to wine, then state it, and state it clearly so that everyone knows what they're buying.

You will find now that later editions of these wines, particularly from Australia CLEARLY state on the cask/label that fruit juice is added and that is a bonus for the wine trade and wine lovers alike, as well as those folk who like a tipple of something with fruit juice added, because we all know what we are drinking!!!