Sin Sot

[Maigo6]

This is going to be a loooooooooooong topic, thanks for bringing it up Lacoste, I was planning on doing it, but I have a little bit of a flu and it's a bad time to be cursed

Alex, it should run and run, but alas, someone will come along and decide that we have said enough, then we will return to really interesting and lively topics like...ummmmm, errrrrrrrr , well just other topics.

[Ijustwannateach]

Shall we try again? This topic is not going down the road of people calling other people's partners prostitutes, etc., etc.

[alexth]

This is going to be a loooooooooooong topic, thanks for bringing it up Lacoste, I was planning on doing it, but I have a little bit of a flu and it's a bad time to be cursed

Alex, it should run and run, but alas, someone will come along and decide that we have said enough, then we will return to really interesting and lively topics like...ummmmm, errrrrrrrr , well just other topics.

What if I'd change my nickname to Sin Sot, it would appear in all the posts and every comment would no longer be offtopic

[Maigo6]

Ok I have a Sin Sot question, do gay guys pay a Sin Sot to a Thai Partner ?

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok, just send admin the request.

[Ijustwannateach]

Maigo, it's not routine to my knowledge. I suppose if you had someone who really wanted to have a formal "wedding" and all they might bother with that part of it, too. Not my type of thing.

[alexth]

Ok I have a Sin Sot question, do gay guys pay a Sin Sot to a Thai Partner ?

I've already asked that, seems JD didn't like the subject , check the posts

[jdinasia]

doesn't bother me Alex ... but tell us more about your personal experience with sinsot!

[Lacoste]

Ok I have a Sin Sot question, do gay guys pay a Sin Sot to a Thai Partner ?

I dont think they can have a legaly recognised relationship here in Thailand.

[leftcross]

what if a thai man marries a western girl? would he insist on paying sin sot as it his culture????

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok I have a Sin Sot question, do gay guys pay a Sin Sot to a Thai Partner ?

I dont think they can have a legaly recognised relationship here in Thailand.

I suppose that would make it lucky that the sin sot ceremony is not part of the legal process of being married.

[alexth]

doesn't bother me Alex ... but tell us more about your personal experience with sinsot!

Ok, most of my university hi-so classmates (boys girls and girls), think the Sin Sot is just a show and that the money are to be returned to the couple and used for the honeymoon, house improvement expenses, etc., etc...When asked what they think about farangs paying Sin Sot for hookers, they started laughing, what I could read on their faces was something like: "U for real? R u actually asking that?"

what if a thai man marries a western girl? would he insist on paying sin sot as it his culture????

[dgoz]

My original q was about the average Isaan girl working a clerical job with no previous sexual partners, dunno how bar girls got involved in the discussion.

I definitely wouldn't pay a satang s/s for a bar girl nor would I marry one. Not judging people who do,each to their own. I guess there are some nice bg's with bad circumstances who have to do it.

There are also millions of non-bg's out there who would like a farang bf or husband. My gf's friends are always asking me if I have a brother etc. Have a look around lads. You wont get laid first night, but you will eventually and it might blossom into a great relationship. IMHO, the average Thai or Asian girl makes a wonderful companion.

But, after dozens of replies and advice Im still no clearer on the subject of sin sot.

[Khutan]

My original q was about the average Isaan girl working a clerical job with no previous sexual partners...

Straight question, Straight answer. 100k and no more.

That should include the Gold, the wedding party, food, band etc etc.

Remember when you talk about Sin Sod that often you are hit with the "unexpected extra's" of food, band booze MC etc.

So tell yhem you will put 100k on the big enamel platter, and that will have to cover everything. The 20k you spend on the 2 Baht of gold must come straight back to you.

[Ijustwannateach]

I've removed another couple of posts making negative comments about TV members' wives in general. My "delete" button finger isn't tired, and warnings are being issued at this point. If you want this thread to remain open, I'd suggest you leave such comments alone.

[Maizefarmer]

For the benfit of all who didnt pick up on the other Sin Sot thread - read on:

Firstly, it is never a condition and no approving parent (rich or poor) cares two hoots about it.

Let me put that another way, if practised as it should be, it is NEVER asked for - and if it is, then something is wrong right from the start - it is gesture, made to the parents in-law by the husband to be entirely of his own free will.

It is about an expression on the husband to be's side to accept his role of care in the family - and that is a very traditional Thai (and South East Asian) practise (in reply to the forum member who questioned why in was so totaly oppisite to "dowry" as practised in places like India and Pakistan).

Yes, it is practised less and less nowadays, because the family structures are less and less what they were in the old days, but a lot of families do still practise it.

Where sinsot is practised honestly in Thai society, you will find that the parents in law often return most of it back with the other hand to the new couple as a wedding present - who suddenly find that the poor old dad (who hadnt a penny to his name before you married his daughter) has purchased them some land for them to build a house on - or it is spent in some other relivant context: to take the often poor abused buffulo (and the excuses which this animal provides), a rice farmer would buy his new son-in-law a "new" buffalo to pull the plough (if the one the son inlaw had was old).

And yes - fact it is practised more in the rural communities, where traditions have hung on a bit longer, but its practise has been across the whole Thai social status strata, and it is not limited to certain incoime brackets - so please dont hang onto the "poverty" comparison I have made - the key words are "relivant to the circumstances".

The point I am making is that it is traditonaly reciprocated by the parents in law - so if you are concerned and trying to establish whether or not the sinsot was conducted in its correct context - look out for some sort of reciprocation, because by and large it is returned to the couple in some way or another that would be of help and relivant to the circumstances.

That is sinsot in its correct place.

It is not about money - its about gesture, tradition, committement and a whole set of values related to you becoming part of that family. It is a serious matter which has no value if it becomes an "exchange of goods" as outlined in my first posting on this subject.

It has no legal value in the sense that it is part of Thai marrige law.

In reply to the forum member who raised the question why sinsot as a subject had been related so much to bar-girls - well the fact of the matter is that most instances of sinsot practised between farangs and Thais takes place between guys who marry bargirls - not all cases, but the majority - and this is the same group in which most marriages between ex-pat males and Thai girls take place (again , not all but most) - and it is against that background that most sinsot takes place out of its correct and proper context and/or role.

I hope that helps to put the subject into perspective.

Tim

[VanZam]

I'm interested to know if any husband has requested that his own cluture be respected also, and ask the father of the bride to pay for the wedding?

If not, and you are being "asked" for sin sot, why not?

[jdinasia]

Maize ... I would disagree. Many parents WILL insist upon it .... But likely not the people the average farang would meet. It may be a rather high amount at that! <It will ALL go back to the daughter and her hubby .. sometimes immediately and sometimes after a set amount of time.>

It is oft used to make sure that the prospective husband is able to care for the daughter etc.

The upcountry rural poor practices of sinsot I can only comment on what I have read. The millions of baht that I saw at a wedding of a CH/Th man and his Th wife was amazing. The fact that the girl is the only daughter of a Landholding family in a province just north of BKK was the determining factor. Since he was Ch/Th she moved to live with his family, a very wealthy merchant family. However, the wife's family insisted that they build a house in the family compound for the daughter too. <Social insurance at its best!>

[Maizefarmer]

Maize ... I would disagree. Many parents WILL insist upon it .... But likely not the people the average farang would meet. It may be a rather high amount at that! <It will ALL go back to the daughter and her hubby .. sometimes immediately and sometimes after a set amount of time.>

It is oft used to make sure that the prospective husband is able to care for the daughter etc.

............ which is exactly what I said i.e "it is an expression on the side of the husband which demonstrates his committment" - I emphasized that point.

If the parents are insisting on it, I am sorry, but that is not right - anyway, step back and take a look at that situation: there is something not quite right if the parents are asking for the groom to put his money where his mouth is. Yes - I know it is often asked for - as it should be practised, no it should not be asked for.

The upcountry rural poor practices of sinsot I can only comment on what I have read. The millions of baht that I saw at a wedding of a CH/Th man and his Th wife was amazing. The fact that the girl is the only daughter of a Landholding family in a province just north of BKK was the determining factor. Since he was Ch/Th she moved to live with his family, a very wealthy merchant family. However, the wife's family insisted that they build a house in the family compound for the daughter too. <Social insurance at its best!>

I think the cirucmstances you describe that particular case as having taken place in, put the whole matter into its perspective.

Tim

[jdinasia]

Let me put that another way, if practised as it should be, it is NEVER asked for - and if it is, then something is wrong right from the start - it is gesture, made to the parents in-law by the husband to be entirely of his own free will.

My point is ... not only might it be asked for .... it is oft required.

[Maizefarmer]

I'm interested to know if any husband has requested that his own cluture be respected also, and ask the father of the bride to pay for the wedding?

If not, and you are being "asked" for sin sot, why not?

When sin sot was "invented" for lack of a better word, I can assure you it did not take into consideration the marrige pratcises of other cultures - as you say your self "his own culture".

I have no issue with anyone who feels that it is justifiable to be asked aginst the background of this or that other circumstance.. fair comment.

Let me just explain where I am coming from on this subject: In the mid '90's was ordained as a Bhuddist monk - I spent 18 months in robes (and if you doubt what I say I still have my "Yellow Pages" - ask any monk for his "Yellow Pages" he will know exactly what you are talking about - its a take off from the Yellow Pages telephone book, and is the monk's id book which is issued to all professed monks). I studied this matter at Mahachulalongkorn Buddhist University. No , I dont have any formal qualification on the subject and I am not a speciliast, but I do know and understand the traditions and how sin sot should be practised - as it was a subject my Ajarn asked me to learn about to discuss with the farang males who often asked him the same question, and who went to him for guidance (his english was bad and he was always often busy doing other things).

So I have a bit more than the man in the street insight understanding of the subject.

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

Let me put that another way, if practised as it should be, it is NEVER asked for - and if it is, then something is wrong right from the start - it is gesture, made to the parents in-law by the husband to be entirely of his own free will.

My point is ... not only might it be asked for .... it is oft required.

Oh yes, you quite right - it is often required or insisted on and causes a lot of heartache. Many a poor groom (excuse pun) has found himself in that situation. Some parents relent, and I know of cases where others have not relented - and it can lead to all sorts of problems between all concerned if an ammicable solution cannot be arrived at.

In so far as that occurs with ex-pats, their partner has usually worked out before what he can offord, and the price will be set accordinly. And there have been cases where the girl has disagreed with what her parents have asked for and has done a runner with the guy, and their are cases in which the girl has supported her parents, and the guy has had to beg borrow or steal - or just knock the plan on the head.

Each case has its own set of unique circumstances, I accept - my only commentswere in respect of how it was/is practised in its correct context.

Tim

[phibunmike]

personally i think you are on a wind up, havent got a thai gf and are a 25 stone ugly bloke who sits behind his PC all day trying to invent a persona.

that's how you come across!!!!

i'd like to hear 'your' opinions on life, the universe and everything after your startlingly incisive views on sin sot.

I used to think Donz was a bit of a twerp, but after seeing more of his posts and learning to understand his sense of humour, he seems like a straight forward decent guy. I think it is very difficult to judge people from fora. I also think we are subliminally influenced by avatars....

[Maizefarmer]

personally i think you are on a wind up, havent got a thai gf and are a 25 stone ugly bloke who sits behind his PC all day trying to invent a persona.

that's how you come across!!!!

i'd like to hear 'your' opinions on life, the universe and everything after your startlingly incisive views on sin sot.

I used to think Donz was a bit of a twerp, but after seeing more of his posts and learning to understand his sense of humour, he seems like a straight forward decent guy. I think it is very difficult to judge people from fora. I also think we are subliminally influenced by avatars....

You refering to me??

[phibunmike]

personally i think you are on a wind up, havent got a thai gf and are a 25 stone ugly bloke who sits behind his PC all day trying to invent a persona.

that's how you come across!!!!

i'd like to hear 'your' opinions on life, the universe and everything after your startlingly incisive views on sin sot.

I used to think Donz was a bit of a twerp, but after seeing more of his posts and learning to understand his sense of humour, he seems like a straight forward decent guy. I think it is very difficult to judge people from fora. I also think we are subliminally influenced by avatars....

You refering to me??

Not in the least Tim, I have very much enjoyed your posts in Isaan forum where you have very generously shared your obviously extensive knowledge of farming. If you lack an avatar, I consider that a mild impediment indeed

I was merely broadening the coverage of my post, and commenting that when we try to "know" the person behind the post, we not only read what they say but are also influenced by their avatars. For example, Guesthouse comes across as slightly cool, partly because of his "Humph" avatar.

My particular comments (in defence of Donz) were aimed at LeftCross's... well... left cross....

Edited September 26, 2006 by phibunmike

[Maizefarmer]

personally i think you are on a wind up, havent got a thai gf and are a 25 stone ugly bloke who sits behind his PC all day trying to invent a persona.

that's how you come across!!!!

i'd like to hear 'your' opinions on life, the universe and everything after your startlingly incisive views on sin sot.

I used to think Donz was a bit of a twerp, but after seeing more of his posts and learning to understand his sense of humour, he seems like a straight forward decent guy. I think it is very difficult to judge people from fora. I also think we are subliminally influenced by avatars....

You refering to me??

Not in the least Tim, I have very much enjoyed your posts in Isaan forum where you have very generously shared your obviously extensive knowledge of farming. If you lack an avatar, I consider that a mild impediment indeed

I was merely broadening the coverage of my post, and commenting that when we try to "know" the person behind the post, we not only read what they say but are also influenced by their avatars. For example, Guesthouse comes across as slightly cool, partly because of his "Humph" avatar.

My particular comments (in defence of Donz) were aimed at LeftCross's... well... left cross....

Fair and accpted - thanxs for your comment re the Isaan thread.

My front door is always open to any genuine forum member - should they wish meet me and see I am who I say am.

And should anyone think I take a high horse attitude - nothing could be further from the truth - I to shagged my way around Phuket and Bangkok and was up to all sorts of tricks - and got hel_l from my wife and mother in law when I was caught on the job (the old boy couldnt stop laughing) - so have been their done that.

Have been here longer than most, my dad worked for the Red Cross at Chula hospital for many years from 56 - 83 and my grandfather before him from 29 - 48, so the Thai connection covers 3 generations. I think I can say quite honestly I have fair insight into how things work here. But there are subjects on the forum I no nothing about and wouldnt dare comment on.

Thanxs mate

Tim

[phibunmike]

Have been here longer than most, my dad worked for the Red Cross at Chula hospital for many years from 56 - 83 and my grandfather before him from 29 - 48, so the Thai connection covers 3 generations. I think I can say quite honestly I have fair insight into how things work here. But there are subjects on the forum I no nothing about and wouldnt dare comment on.

Thanxs mate

Tim

Your insight is valuable and appreciated. What's more you take the time to share your views and experience with other members. Thanks.

Cheers,

Mike

[Maizefarmer]

Appreciated - door always open - just drop me a PM beforehand.

Tim

[Rdrokit]

I'm interested to know if any husband has requested that his own cluture be respected also, and ask the father of the bride to pay for the wedding?

If not, and you are being "asked" for sin sot, why not?

If the family was living in the USA and the wedding was in the USA the I would ask the brides father to pay for the wedding as that is tradition in the US. But we are living in Thailand and must respect Thai culture.

[phibunmike]

I'm interested to know if any husband has requested that his own cluture be respected also, and ask the father of the bride to pay for the wedding?

If not, and you are being "asked" for sin sot, why not?

If the family was living in the USA and the wedding was in the USA the I would ask the brides father to pay for the wedding as that is tradition in the US. But we are living in Thailand and must respect Thai culture.

My understanding was that in Thailand the brides father pays for the wedding, irrespective of any sin sot agreement. Is that right ?