Bizarre college hazing rituals must be stopped

[TimmyT]

fraternities are nothing like families.

at least to be someone's kinsman you don't need to be initiated. you are already a kinsman. in monarchy bad effect of nepotism is counterbalanced by good effect of genes, continuity and independence from ohlos.

in history there were so many rich families and monarchies which lost there wealth and power because negative effects became stronger than good effects

"initiation" is just a ritual - a lie and manipulation in order to convince someone to obey (without no objective reason) the collective and it's self-proclaimed leader(s). to give up personality and free will.

people with weak personalities, who subconsciously wish to give up the responsibility for life choices, are happy to be a part of a collective, a tribe, a gang, which will tell them what to do, how to live and what to believe in.

all mafias, gangs, radical movements and parties, religious sects and cults, fraternities, etc are in constant search of this kind people.

read Erich Fromm's "Escape from Freedom".

1. Good effect of genes? No one is that uniformed. Genes and the house of Windsor? http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/haemophilia.html or Google genetic disorders European Royality.

2. Initiation may involve doing good or charity work. You don't know.

3. Most US Presidents were members of Fraternities.

Read

18 U.S. Presidents Were in College Fraternities

It is obvious you are not a member of a Fraternity or an owner of a business. So, I submit you are talking from the outside looking in - without any actual experience of what you speak.

1) they can have genetic disorder and still inherit better than average intellectual abilities

2) charity work can be performed without initiation. I respect charity work with an idea to make people's liefe better as a goal. and I am against initiation as a principle

3) and it does not characterize US presidents from a good side. What we know about US presidents of previous 25 years (Bushes, Clinton, Obama) shows us how harmful fraternities are. Same can be said about all American population - the quality of US graduates is quite low now and declining - that's why US depends on foreign students and specialists. may be the one reason is that american students spend time on stupid rituals, initiations, parties, fraternities, alcohol, drugs, sexual orgies etc?

and foreign students just study hard and get skills.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21567373-american-universities-represent-declining-value-money-their-students-not-what-it

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/07/12/new-report-shows-dependence-us-graduate-programs-foreign-students

many people believe that members of Yale's Skull & Bones Secret Society seized power in the US and manipulate the whole country. May be it's perfect for the members but it has a devastating effect for the whole US society

same as mafia.

PS quote: "It is obvious you are not a member of a Fraternity or an owner of a business. So, I submit you are talking from the outside looking in - without any actual experience of what you speak. "

this is just an ad hominem argument. According to discussion rules I shouldn't answer, but OK, I will answer.

I am the business owner (believe it or not!) and choose my staff regarding professional abilities only. When I was in university I was persistently "asked" to take part in initiation ritual to be a part of fraternity. I refused because obedience to informal leader(s) without any objective reason disgusts me. I am not a monkey, I am human. They tried to force me to obey but didn't succeed. Because even at that time I respected myself and knew that I don't need to be a part of a tribe to be happy. I need to study and develop skills rather than partying, drinking alcohol, taking drugs, and having sex with as many women as possible. I had some parties but neither drank nor smoke - because I didn't need mind-altering chemicals to be happy. I was comfortable with sane myself.

in a few month I developed good relationship with members of all fraternities (and those who refused the initiation like myself also), some of them became my friends and I felt myself much more free than any member of any fraternity in the uni.

some of them are still my friends, nevertheless I refused to be initiated.

now, remembering my study, I understand how clever I was to choose not to play the stupid game, but to study.

monkey initiation rituals should be ridiculed

Edited September 9, 2015 by TimmyT

[lostoday]

fraternities are nothing like families.

at least to be someone's kinsman you don't need to be initiated. you are already a kinsman. in monarchy bad effect of nepotism is counterbalanced by good effect of genes, continuity and independence from ohlos.

in history there were so many rich families and monarchies which lost there wealth and power because negative effects became stronger than good effects

"initiation" is just a ritual - a lie and manipulation in order to convince someone to obey (without no objective reason) the collective and it's self-proclaimed leader(s). to give up personality and free will.

people with weak personalities, who subconsciously wish to give up the responsibility for life choices, are happy to be a part of a collective, a tribe, a gang, which will tell them what to do, how to live and what to believe in.

all mafias, gangs, radical movements and parties, religious sects and cults, fraternities, etc are in constant search of this kind people.

read Erich Fromm's "Escape from Freedom".

1. Good effect of genes? No one is that uniformed. Genes and the house of Windsor? http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/haemophilia.html or Google genetic disorders European Royality.

2. Initiation may involve doing good or charity work. You don't know.

3. Most US Presidents were members of Fraternities.

Read

18 U.S. Presidents Were in College Fraternities

It is obvious you are not a member of a Fraternity or an owner of a business. So, I submit you are talking from the outside looking in - without any actual experience of what you speak.

1) they can have genetic disorder and still inherit better than average intellectual abilities

2) charity work can be performed without initiation. I respect charity work with an idea to make people's liefe better as a goal. and I am against initiation as a principle

3) and it does not characterize US presidents from a good side. What we know about US presidents of previous 25 years (Bushes, Clinton, Obama) shows us how harmful fraternities are. Same can be said about all American population - the quality of US graduates is quite low now and declining - that's why US depends on foreign students and specialists. may be the one reason is that american students spend time on stupid rituals, initiations, parties, fraternities, alcohol, drugs, sexual life etc?

and foreign students just study hard and get skills.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21567373-american-universities-represent-declining-value-money-their-students-not-what-it

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/07/12/new-report-shows-dependence-us-graduate-programs-foreign-students

many people believe that members of Yale's Skull & Bones Secret Society seized power in the US and manipulate the whole country. May be it's perfect for the members but it has a devastating effect for the whole US society

same as mafia.

Inherit intelligence from European royal genes? Skull and Bones the same as Mafia? US depends on foreign students? Like Bill Gates? I believe you are a child posting on here so I'll stop conversing with you.

[TimmyT]

fraternities are nothing like families.

at least to be someone's kinsman you don't need to be initiated. you are already a kinsman. in monarchy bad effect of nepotism is counterbalanced by good effect of genes, continuity and independence from ohlos.

in history there were so many rich families and monarchies which lost there wealth and power because negative effects became stronger than good effects

"initiation" is just a ritual - a lie and manipulation in order to convince someone to obey (without no objective reason) the collective and it's self-proclaimed leader(s). to give up personality and free will.

people with weak personalities, who subconsciously wish to give up the responsibility for life choices, are happy to be a part of a collective, a tribe, a gang, which will tell them what to do, how to live and what to believe in.

all mafias, gangs, radical movements and parties, religious sects and cults, fraternities, etc are in constant search of this kind people.

read Erich Fromm's "Escape from Freedom".

1. Good effect of genes? No one is that uniformed. Genes and the house of Windsor? http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/haemophilia.html or Google genetic disorders European Royality.

2. Initiation may involve doing good or charity work. You don't know.

3. Most US Presidents were members of Fraternities.

Read

18 U.S. Presidents Were in College Fraternities

It is obvious you are not a member of a Fraternity or an owner of a business. So, I submit you are talking from the outside looking in - without any actual experience of what you speak.

1) they can have genetic disorder and still inherit better than average intellectual abilities

2) charity work can be performed without initiation. I respect charity work with an idea to make people's liefe better as a goal. and I am against initiation as a principle

3) and it does not characterize US presidents from a good side. What we know about US presidents of previous 25 years (Bushes, Clinton, Obama) shows us how harmful fraternities are. Same can be said about all American population - the quality of US graduates is quite low now and declining - that's why US depends on foreign students and specialists. may be the one reason is that american students spend time on stupid rituals, initiations, parties, fraternities, alcohol, drugs, sexual life etc?

and foreign students just study hard and get skills.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21567373-american-universities-represent-declining-value-money-their-students-not-what-it

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/07/12/new-report-shows-dependence-us-graduate-programs-foreign-students

many people believe that members of Yale's Skull & Bones Secret Society seized power in the US and manipulate the whole country. May be it's perfect for the members but it has a devastating effect for the whole US society

same as mafia.

Inherit intelligence from European royal genes? Skull and Bones the same as Mafia? US depends on foreign students? Like Bill Gates? I believe you are a child posting on here so I'll stop conversing with you.

everybody say like this when he runs out of arguments. quite predictable.

you can read about who am I in the add to my previous answer.

bill Gates is very talented businessmen (but not scientist at all). but he is just one. and we speak about US graduates en masse. And statistics say than in science, technology, engineering and mathematics more than 60-70% of graduates are foreigners.

and in some ridiculous easy useless courses, such as, for example "African studies" or "Feminist, Gender, and Sexuality Studies" Americans have, of course, more than 99%!

lol

[aussieinthailand]

fraternities are nothing like families.

at least to be someone's kinsman you don't need to be initiated. you are already a kinsman. in monarchy bad effect of nepotism is counterbalanced by good effect of genes, continuity and independence from ohlos.

in history there were so many rich families and monarchies which lost there wealth and power because negative effects became stronger than good effects

"initiation" is just a ritual - a lie and manipulation in order to convince someone to obey (without no objective reason) the collective and it's self-proclaimed leader(s). to give up personality and free will.

people with weak personalities, who subconsciously wish to give up the responsibility for life choices, are happy to be a part of a collective, a tribe, a gang, which will tell them what to do, how to live and what to believe in.

all mafias, gangs, radical movements and parties, religious sects and cults, fraternities, etc are in constant search of this kind people.

read Erich Fromm's "Escape from Freedom".

1. Good effect of genes? No one is that uniformed. Genes and the house of Windsor? http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/haemophilia.html or Google genetic disorders European Royality.

2. Initiation may involve doing good or charity work. You don't know.

3. Most US Presidents were members of Fraternities.

Read

18 U.S. Presidents Were in College Fraternities

It is obvious you are not a member of a Fraternity or an owner of a business. So, I submit you are talking from the outside looking in - without any actual experience of what you speak.

1) they can have genetic disorder and still inherit better than average intellectual abilities

2) charity work can be performed without initiation. I respect charity work with an idea to make people's liefe better as a goal. and I am against initiation as a principle

3) and it does not characterize US presidents from a good side. What we know about US presidents of previous 25 years (Bushes, Clinton, Obama) shows us how harmful fraternities are. Same can be said about all American population - the quality of US graduates is quite low now and declining - that's why US depends on foreign students and specialists. may be the one reason is that american students spend time on stupid rituals, initiations, parties, fraternities, alcohol, drugs, sexual orgies etc?

and foreign students just study hard and get skills.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21567373-american-universities-represent-declining-value-money-their-students-not-what-it

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/07/12/new-report-shows-dependence-us-graduate-programs-foreign-students

many people believe that members of Yale's Skull & Bones Secret Society seized power in the US and manipulate the whole country. May be it's perfect for the members but it has a devastating effect for the whole US society

same as mafia.

PS quote: "It is obvious you are not a member of a Fraternity or an owner of a business. So, I submit you are talking from the outside looking in - without any actual experience of what you speak. "

this is just an ad hominem argument. According to discussion rules I shouldn't answer, but OK, I will answer.

I am the business owner (believe it or not!) and choose my staff regarding professional abilities only. When I was in university I was persistently "asked" to take part in initiation ritual to be a part of fraternity. I refused because obedience to informal leader(s) without any objective reason disgusts me. I am not a monkey, I am human. They tried to force me to obey but didn't succeed. Because even at that time I respected myself and knew that I don't need to be a part of a tribe to be happy. I need to study and develop skills rather than partying, drinking alcohol, taking drugs, and having sex with as many women as possible. I had some parties but neither drank nor smoke - because I didn't need mind-altering chemicals to be happy. I was comfortable with sane myself.

in a few month I developed good relationship with members of all fraternities (and those who refused the initiation like myself also), some of them became my friends and I felt myself much more free than any member of any fraternity in the uni.

some of them are still my friends, nevertheless I refused to be initiated.

now, remembering my study, I understand how clever I was to choose not to play the stupid game, but to study.

monkey initiation rituals should be ridiculed

So you have no support of initiation's, that's cool you have that right, What I would like to point out is, that I have no like for initiation's that have a detrimental affect on an individual or people as a whole, also there are initiation's that are positive, peaceful, many if not all religions have initiation's of some sort, many clubs have them where no one is hurt, so I have no problem with initiation's that are there as long as they are of value to the person and the whole group.

[Tomtomtom69]

Initiation rituals have been part of life in all societies since societal groups formed. Any social organization, which includes military, governmental, religious, academic, technological, fraternal and ideological has initiation rites.

Properly conducted, they are valuable in building a sense of belonging, purpose and teamwork.

The problem happens when sadistic idiots abuse the rites to get their jollies. Or untrained idiots put people's lives at risk in the name of camaraderie.

Sick hazing was rife in the '70s when I was in college and was centuries old even then, so it's hardly a recent Thai thing.

and what if they came to uni not for "the sense of belonging"? what if they don't want to "belong" to any self-proclaimed social group, but just study, to get a good job in the future?

all these "fraternities" is bullshit and nothing else.

I never wanted to feel myself "belonged" to one, because I felt confident in communication with people without regard of what "fraternity" they belonged to.

The urge to divide the world into friends and foes is completely instinctive. it's a feature of undeveloped, unconscious mind.

If you do not have that sense of belonging; that is your choice. However, many have benefited well from belonging--these social organizations are great networks for that all-important future job market. As I said, before my post was so severely truncated; moderation in these rituals is the key, and staying moderate takes brains; something many of these posers simply do not possess

Who goes to uni to participate in this crap nobody. Only in Thailand do uni students act like 10 year old kids but nowhere else in the world do students wear uniforms or have written anywhere in the syllabus that hazing would be a course requirement to pass or graduate. Uni is voluntary even in Thailand. So why would anyone care if a student participated in a hazing ritual or not. You simply don't show up for orientation that's it. Haha what q laughable claim that fraternities help you in the job market. I'm sure a potential employer would be very impressed by seeing pictures of you passed out on a park bench or trying to look up ladies skirts and having those pictures posted to Facebook.

[lostoday]

and what if they came to uni not for "the sense of belonging"? what if they don't want to "belong" to any self-proclaimed social group, but just study, to get a good job in the future?

all these "fraternities" is bullshit and nothing else.

I never wanted to feel myself "belonged" to one, because I felt confident in communication with people without regard of what "fraternity" they belonged to.

The urge to divide the world into friends and foes is completely instinctive. it's a feature of undeveloped, unconscious mind.

If you do not have that sense of belonging; that is your choice. However, many have benefited well from belonging--these social organizations are great networks for that all-important future job market. As I said, before my post was so severely truncated; moderation in these rituals is the key, and staying moderate takes brains; something many of these posers simply do not possess

Who goes to uni to participate in this crap nobody. Only in Thailand do uni students act like 10 year old kids but nowhere else in the world do students wear uniforms or have written anywhere in the syllabus that hazing would be a course requirement to pass or graduate. Uni is voluntary even in Thailand. So why would anyone care if a student participated in a hazing ritual or not. You simply don't show up for orientation that's it. Haha what q laughable claim that fraternities help you in the job market. I'm sure a potential employer would be very impressed by seeing pictures of you passed out on a park bench or trying to look up ladies skirts and having those pictures posted to Facebook.

Fraternities make up a large part of American college life at the better universities. Some of them are like Animal house. Except men actually in Fraternities never call them, "frats" that word is for the Hollywood wannabes who never made it.

[impulse]

I think ability is the only thing that SHOULD be counted. and civilized humanity must strive for it. by hardly punishing and derision of all kinds of "initiation ceremonies"

No offense but it is obvious you are an employee not a boss/owner.

and you think general manager should base his employee choice on who have been with him in fraternity, school, uni, kindergarten?

this is called nepotism

company with such personnel policy will not prosper for long. that's why it's hardly prosecuted by any sane board of directors

Seriously?

Look up the board of directors of any Fortune 500 Company, (Wall Street in particular) and you'll see a network of nepotism and cronyism. They vote each other huge bonus packages and massive perks. They play golf together, they vacation together (they each fly in on their own jet, however), they marry each others sisters, and cheat with the same mistresses. They invite each other over for dinner, they throw massive birthday parties for each other, they sponsor each others' kids school's trips to the Himalayas (and that's the 4th grade trip), and they hire each others' coke snorting, one step ahead of the DEA, kids.

Is it right? Probably not. Is it smart? Probably not.

Are they each wealthier than the entire list of people who posted on TVF today? You bet your ass.

Edited September 10, 2015 by impulse

[lostoday]

I think ability is the only thing that SHOULD be counted. and civilized humanity must strive for it. by hardly punishing and derision of all kinds of "initiation ceremonies"

No offense but it is obvious you are an employee not a boss/owner.

and you think general manager should base his employee choice on who have been with him in fraternity, school, uni, kindergarten?

this is called nepotism

company with such personnel policy will not prosper for long. that's why it's hardly prosecuted by any sane board of directors

Seriously?

Look up the board of directors of any Fortune 500 Company, (Wall Street in particular) and you'll see a network of nepotism and cronyism. They vote each other huge bonus packages and massive perks. They play golf together, they vacation together (they each fly in on their own jet, however), they marry each others sisters, and cheat with the same mistresses. They invite each other over for dinner, they throw massive birthday parties for each other, they sponsor each others' kids school's trips to the Himalayas (and that's the 4th grade trip), and they hire each others' coke snorting, one step ahead of the DEA, kids.

Is it right? Probably not. Is it smart? Probably not.

Are they each wealthier than the entire list of people who posted on TVF today? You bet your ass.

I believe British intelligence in WW2 was run by people mostly from Cambridge and Oxford and the USA's from the Ivy league.

The Ivy League opted out of the Vietnam war as did Oxford and Cambridge and look what happened.

[TimmyT]

Seriously?

Look up the board of directors of any Fortune 500 Company, (Wall Street in particular) and you'll see a network of nepotism and cronyism. They vote each other huge bonus packages and massive perks. They play golf together, they vacation together (they each fly in on their own jet, however), they marry each others sisters, and cheat with the same mistresses. They invite each other over for dinner, they throw massive birthday parties for each other, they sponsor each others' kids school's trips to the Himalayas (and that's the 4th grade trip), and they hire each others' coke snorting, one step ahead of the DEA, kids.

Is it right? Probably not. Is it smart? Probably not.

Are they each wealthier than the entire list of people who posted on TVF today? You bet your ass.

wow. that was a cool post. you should be a writer

may be that's why modern world economy is so ineffective and oriented on permanent growth and overproduction. so many people are starving, homeless or live for less than a dollar.