Thailand, A Broadband Dream, Er... Nightmare Come True

[Lannig]

I was watching the titles of recent posts on the same page:

• Tot Adsl Not Working Good
  
• Maxnet Tt&t Problems
  
• How Bad Is True Adsl ?
  

Just wondering if there's any hope... guess not.

And now liberalisation of the telecom/market here probably is even further away. As for the qualified IT staff Thailand is starving for, well, probably recent events won't encourage many people to come help.

How pathetic.

--Lannig

Edited September 27, 2006 by Lannig

[bazmlb]

Is it any wonder tho, if a thai got qualified as a CCIE (cisco top qual) they would be able to earn around USD$100k p.a in the states, these are the type of people who run and design the backbones, just to get the qual takes around two years and more money than most would earn in 5 years in IT, so just do the sums why the network here isnt quiet as good as it should be.

Couple all this with aerial run telephone lines that aren't well joined and all the wierd stuff the transparent proxies do, its a wonder anything works

[giulio]

yes,i agree,very very bad situation and no hope better in the future

[Firefoxx]

I can tell you from first hand experience that certification means squat in Thailand, unless you get to work for a *really* big/good company. It doesn't do anything for your salary, doesn't help you get a job. I put my certifications on my resume and they didn't even realize it until a few months after I was hired.

Salaries here are also about 1/10th what you'd get in the US (or less). You could use the cost of living argument, but it doesn't really cost 1/10th to live at the same level here as in the US (as long as you're not into having a loft in Manhattan or something).

[Prasert]

Some engineers working at the ISP's are CCNA certified. I can tell that from the signatures under the emails they sent. (CCNA is the entry level in Cisco certification)

But certified doesn't mean qualified....it takes experience.

I have had several more in-depth email conversations with engineers from both True and CSLoxinfo. If you're lucky, you can find one who actually knows what he or she is talking about. But to the most simple technical questions I often get answers that don't even deal with the question at all.

Next to that, the majority does not speak english. Now keep that in mind when you take a look at all the equipment used in networks these days: every single device configuration is in English. A Cisco exam can only be done in English.

So as long as the language is the main problem, things won't change. The websites from the major network equipment suppliers (e.g. Cisco, Juniper, Nortel) are only available in English. So if you want to look up some information when you're troubleshooting an issue.........

.......or just deny the problem and go to the temple.

[kayo]

I`d have thought that with the demise of toxy, that maybve his companies would have less power.... more liberalisation??

[Lannig]

Couldn't agree more with you, Prasert. I actually worked in one of these big ISPs for years and I can vouch for every word you wrote. English is the problem. I was actually amazed to see some of my coworkers actually passing CISCO exams (can't quite recall what level, probably CCNA) while I had to communicate with them in Thai only because their English was so broken. Furthermore for most of them their level of expertise in network routing etc. was... well, kind of low.

How did they make it? no idea. Probably learning a lot of things just by heart, this is the typical method of education here (ever saw English lessons in ordinary primary or seconday schools?). That's didn't make them fully operational after this for sure.

I don't have much trust in certifications anyway. I'm an old school IT guy and I believe only in hands-on experience. But that I saw while working there certainly didn't make me change my mind.

The other important aspect here is work method (or lack of). I was always amazed to see my Thai colleagues making drastic changes to the routers or servers 'just to see if it does the trick', with of course no kind of tracking of actions, no roll-back copies, absolutely no consideration for consistency, company standards and even less 'good practice' rules. Most of them seemed to consider the routers and servers as their own toys to experiment and have fun with. Really not much concern for the sometimes catastrophic effects this could have on the customers. Yes, that was several years ago, and now I'm out of this, but what I hear about the experiences of True, TOT, CSLox etc. customers makes me think this hasn't changed much.

Sorry if I sound like bashing Thais here. I love this country and this people, I wouldn't have lived here if I didn't, but honestly, it's a real nightmare for IT people trying to work professionally here. IT really isn't their thing, culture-wise.

--Lannig

Edited September 28, 2006 by Lannig

[nikster]

The other important aspect here is work method (or lack of). I was always amazed to see my Thai colleagues making drastic changes to the routers or servers 'just to see if it does the trick', with of course no kind of tracking of actions, no roll-back copies, absolutely no consideration for consistency, company standards and even less 'good practice' rules.

Don't think that's so much a Thai thing - it's something that I have seen many times in IT and even programming - people who are clueless, who are either not able to understand or don't make an effort but are still in the job - they "try" things.

Maybe only in Thailand where they can get away with turning off the entire companys internet without getting fired though ...Kreng Jai...

I do know a few Thai nationals who are excellent engineers. In fact I do most of my contracting work for one.

[nikster]

To answer the OPs question: Yes, Internet in Thailand is very bad.

Ping times on ADSL are inbetween 300 and 400 (U.S.: around 50). On satellite, around 700 or 800 (Satellite delay + Thailand delay because it's going through Bangkok).

Download speeds during the day on a 1024K line (most you can get where I am) are ~30 - 40K, reaching 100K - which is the normal speed - at night. There are frequent downtimes though it has been getting better.

On a positive note, Internet has been improving constantly since I am here, and networking equipment is being installed at a blazing speed. Thailand is behind, but it's catching up fast. And I would not be surprised if the CATs international gateway monopoly fell and internet speeds would increase dramatically.

The ADSL guys where I am (TOT) even talked about wanting to switch to ADSL2+ with 12Mbit download speeds soon. I am guessing they have put it on the back burner because what good is a 12MBit connection to Bangkok when the international gateway is already completely maxed out. Once the CAT monopoly falls things will improve.

Thailand often gives the impression that nothing ever happens here, but it's deceiving because when it happens, it happens FAST. I am in the north, Mae Hong Son province in the mountains and I have DSL. Who am I to complain?

[astral]

But certified doesn't mean qualified....it takes experience.

This is the really scary thing about these Certification schemes, and they are all the rage now.

I am grateful that my certification as an HP Instructor on NonStop systems is grandfathered.

Our exams do need experience as well as book knowledge and I have seen guys with many years

experience struggling to make the grade to get the certificate.

To me that makes the certificate worth having.

[Lannig]

To answer the OPs question: Yes, Internet in Thailand is very bad.

Ping times on ADSL are inbetween 300 and 400 (U.S.: around 50). On satellite, around 700 or 800 (Satellite delay + Thailand delay because it's going through Bangkok).

Download speeds during the day on a 1024K line (most you can get where I am) are ~30 - 40K, reaching 100K - which is the normal speed - at night. There are frequent downtimes though it has been getting better.

Thanks Nikster, but I have been around here for quite some time, I kind of know this already. My posting was just

talk, not to get a report of the situation here. I (unfortunately) know what it is.

On a positive note, Internet has been improving constantly since I am here, and networking equipment is being installed at a blazing speed.

Do you think so? well, I mean, yes it has improved in terms of the bandwidth available to the mere mortal, but in terms of reliability I'm not sure things have improved so much. I remember the days that dial-ups from Loxinfo were extremely reliable.

Today with the price war and rush to ADSL, I think that all ISPs are operating very, very fragile networks.

Thailand is behind, but it's catching up fast.

Not my impression again. I really see it lagging more and more behind the global trend.

And I would not be surprised if the CATs international gateway monopoly fell and internet speeds would increase dramatically.

Well we certainly agree that would be an excellent thing, but is this going to happen any time soon? honestly I don't think so.

The ADSL guys where I am (TOT) even talked about wanting to switch to ADSL2+ with 12Mbit download speeds soon. I am guessing they have put it on the back burner because what good is a 12MBit connection to Bangkok when the international gateway is already completely maxed out.

With download speeds from foreign sites nearing the dial-up speeds in the evening on a TOT 1024kb/s subscription, I don't quite see the point to upping the speed of the subscriber's link at this time.

The issue is the price. CAT is a real rackett, charging for int'l b/w many times what is charged elsewhere. People are now expecting to pay sub-1k bahts prices for their ADSL lines, so how can they run a profitable buisness?

Oh yes, sorry, TOT doesn't really need to make money. I forgot

Thailand often gives the impression that nothing ever happens here, but it's deceiving because when it happens, it happens FAST. I am in the north, Mae Hong Son province in the mountains and I have DSL. Who am I to complain?

It all happens too fast IMO. Technology is rolled out without the proper infrastructure, staffing etc.

You pay it in usability and reliability.

--Lannig

[Deksan]

To answer the OPs question: Yes, Internet in Thailand is very bad.

Ping times on ADSL are inbetween 300 and 400 (U.S.: around 50). On satellite, around 700 or 800 (Satellite delay + Thailand delay because it's going through Bangkok).

Download speeds during the day on a 1024K line (most you can get where I am) are ~30 - 40K, reaching 100K - which is the normal speed - at night. There are frequent downtimes though it has been getting better.

On a positive note, Internet has been improving constantly since I am here, and networking equipment is being installed at a blazing speed. Thailand is behind, but it's catching up fast. And I would not be surprised if the CATs international gateway monopoly fell and internet speeds would increase dramatically.

The ADSL guys where I am (TOT) even talked about wanting to switch to ADSL2+ with 12Mbit download speeds soon. I am guessing they have put it on the back burner because what good is a 12MBit connection to Bangkok when the international gateway is already completely maxed out. Once the CAT monopoly falls things will improve.

Thailand often gives the impression that nothing ever happens here, but it's deceiving because when it happens, it happens FAST. I am in the north, Mae Hong Son province in the mountains and I have DSL. Who am I to complain?

From what I see here http://iir.ngi.nectec.or.th/internet/map/firstpage.html , CAT gateway capacity has not improved at all, while they were allocating more bandwith to each isp. I fear we have reached the top of the mountains CAT was going to climb, and now CAT is waiting for ISP to run away with their own IIG. Which so far only ToT seems to have started. I believe true took a IIG gateway only to threaten CAT. It will be soon a year since NTC has said they ll provide IIG licence and that we heard that true and tot were the first one to get it. Where are we since then ?

True's dns is falling appart quite often, that I have decided to use ToT one. The price are going down sacrificing reliability as Lannig said. Some days at night around 19h/20h it s really painful to do anything. The worst is when you try to play online in the US and have to explain the concept of reliability of your connection to the customer support who is talking only in terms of bandwidth.

The biggest problem in thailand is the lack of transparency, when something is wrong you never know why, there is no homepage on CAT / True (dont give me the network status link it s totally useless) or other ISP that would explain you why for 5 mn between 7 and 8 you werent able to connect to google. Why your msn connection dropped for an hour. Having problem is normal and every ISPs in the world face it, some transparency helps customers to understand it.

[The Coder]

Deregulating CAT is not going to do squat in my opinion. True has proven they do not scale their allocated bandwidth to meet incremental increases in customers. Now they are allocating less bandwidth per user than *ever* before and speed limiters are *more* annoying than ever. This has nothing to do with CAT. Be realistc, if bandwidth charges drop by half, it's not going to be like flipping a switch and we all of a sudden have a "real" internet connection. True will not slash prices, will not get rid of the speed limiters, will not stop playing user contention ratio games, and reliability won't suddenly improve. As long as customers accept a poor service, that is exactly what they are going to provide. I honestly don't see the model changing; Thai's are used to broken things that don't work right and they sort of expect it.