Thai editorial: In teaching English, say it first, grammar later

[Goethe]

The internet is a very democratic institution: it allows everyone to participate in discussing any topic -- whether or not they have any knowledge or expertise about that topic.

Unfortunately, almost all the responses to and opinions expressed about this topic reveal a complete ignorance about the process of learning a second language.

1. Comparing the learning of one's native language to learning a second language is a false analogy. You are immersed in your first language from birth, 24 hours a day Starting to learn a second language around the age of 7 of 8 years of age in the classroom for even one hour a day will ensure that progress is painfully slow. Two years in a classroom is equivalent to one week in the country of the target language.

2. Those who advocates "speak first; grammar can come later" fail to realise that even the simplest phrases ("Hello, how are you") are based on correct grammar. There are three goals of language learning: reading, writing and speaking. The last one (speaking) is the hardest to acquire and requires years and years of practice.

3. Without some study of grammar all second-language speakers will speak fractured English -- O.K. for everyday communication, but a handicap when aiming for better-paying jobs (e.g. hotel receptionist).

4. To conduct an intelligent conversation in a second language requires approx. 3000 hours of study and practice -- that is, 10 hours a week for six years. Individual results may vary (some people have a "knack" for languages), but the average person will never speak truly fluently with a wide vocabulary without years of study and/or years spent in the country. How many farang do you know who speak fluent Thai? What percentage of the total number of permanent residents do they represent?

Trust me, I'm a Doctor - a retired Professor of Languages.

Doctor, can a person who does not speak a language teach it?

Thank God he's retired. Hopefully the theory will die with him.

Attacking someone personally (it's called an "ad hominem" argument) does not invalidate the opinions that person expressed. "Ad hominem" attacks are employed by people who are either ignorant or immature or who have no counter-argument. It is better to keep quiet in order not to embarrass oneself.

[ronwparker]

I agree totally .Thailand is in Asean and English is the only common language yet on thw whole the speaking and teaching of English is the worst in Asean.

There have been many highly publicised attempts at reform but to this day the education system concentrates on Grammar and even very intelligent graduates cannot speak it well(if at all)!

There honourable exceptions but relatively few sadly.

[arfurcrown]

Trust me, I'm a Doctor - a retired Professor of Languages.

So therefore in your view the rest of the participants in this thread who disagree with your comments are not allowed to voice their opinions?

Expert or specialist?

An expert knows a little about a great deal

A specialist knows a great deal about very little.

Now if you feel that the comments are to abrasive for you to stomach your course of action is easy . Don't view or post in the thread.

[silent]

Soooo... How did we all learn our native languages? In a classroom studying grammar?

No, we learned from our mothers and others and we could speak and listen long before we saw a classroom. The grammar doesn't begin to make sense until one knows the language just a bit.

The author is absolutely correct about methods, and that the present system doesn't work as proved by the clear fact that Thai children can't speak English after 12 years of it.

Not wasting my time reading the whole damned thing (not meaning the quote), not many of us were able to come out of the womb walking or talking like a pro and I don't know how in hell I ever managed grammar or pronunciation other than listening and talking with people and dear teacher mother correcting.

There's a hell of a difference between practical use and I still don't know every word in the dictionary like my brother or even care to, but for some reason I'm able to have people understand me with a lesser degree, or command of the English language. All these years and I still sometimes have a problem with proper punctuation though.

For the grammar in Thailand I have to admit how much smarter they appear in my limited understanding of the Thai language. Apparently something like "go market" in any instance can mean either you, we, I, they etc. am going, are going, have gone or will be going to the market and, depending on the obvious circumstances might also mean do you want to come with me. It takes a tremendously intelligent person to immediately be able to figure all that out.

Attitude more than education might make it easier for Thais to communicate in English, if not for most English wanting perfectionism in an imperfect world ridiculing those that aren't as perfect as themself, [ (or should that be themselves and this now have a question mark at the end of the sentence, (before or after the end parenthesis, or bracket).]?

Edited September 23, 2015 by silent

[FruitPudding]

I agree with the article, they lack speaking skills the most.

The grammar doesn't need to be taught explicitly.

You just teach the vocab and sentences (grammatically correct...obviously) and give them plenty of speaking practice. They will notice the grammar patterns and accept them.

[MaxLee]

I agree with the OP. Having an understanding of what the words mean & putting them together in a sentence should come well before worrying about grammar. I hated grammar at school, never fully understood it & still don't to this day.

Hope this helps.

Well the most important, stop terrorizing the youngsters with saving face brainwashing

[Scott]

You can't communicate effectively unless you know how to change the verb to match context - eat, eats, ate, has eaten, is eating, was eating, will eat, is going to eat, will have eaten, had eaten etc. Grammar is essential otherwise people speak like bar girls - you eat mango today, you eat mango tomorrow, you eat mango now and that's just about it.

I don't totally disagree, but the problem is many people can't say much of anything. Grammar is how you eventually explain what you are correcting.

[LannaGuy]

Speak it first is the right approach and worry about technicalities later. When I used to go to Russia a lot I could communicate quite well and had NO clue about the technicalities, I am a native English speaker for decades and still don't understand the technicalities I just communicate!

Thais don't speak much English because they are xenophobic and think Thai is the number one language in the world and they don't 'need' foreigners!

Thais don't speak much English because Thai is the official language here. I have never met 1 Thai who thinks that Thai is the number one language in the world.

And what about this 'don't need foreigners' statement? Thais are more than capable of taking care of them selves. They've done this for ages, with or without English.

think it through please? have you been to India? Philippines? waaaaaaay ahead of Thais in speaking English (the international language of finance, science, aviation etc. etc.). Everyone knows Thais are xenophobic and "gob nai kala"

[Thai at Heart]

I agree with the OP. Having an understanding of what the words mean & putting them together in a sentence should come well before worrying about grammar. I hated grammar at school, never fully understood it & still don't to this day.

Hope this helps.

Oh the irony.

"How to write GOOD?" How about, "How to write well."?

Edited September 23, 2015 by Thai at Heart

[FruitPudding]

Soooo... How did we all learn our native languages? In a classroom studying grammar?

No, we learned from our mothers and others and we could speak and listen long before we saw a classroom. The grammar doesn't begin to make sense until one knows the language just a bit.

The author is absolutely correct about methods, and that the present system doesn't work as proved by the clear fact that Thai children can't speak English after 12 years of it.

While I agree 100% with you (that the author is absolutely correct about the methods), you may want to refrain from saying the words "learn" and "native language" together like that.

We don't learn our native languages, we aquire them.

Google "1st language aquisition" and "2nd language learning". They are a not the same and we should avoid comaparing 2nd language learning to 1st language aquisition.

That being said, all students need is to understand the meaning of the target language and then get plenty of practice using with the four skills. So long as the language is taught grammatically correct, there won't be any grammer mix ups.

Some adult learners, however, insist on wasting time with grammar and never develop their speaking skills. Ironically, their grammar doesn't tend to improve either. They just go round in circles.

Language is practical. It's not theoretical. They need to use the language as much as possible.

[seajae]

maybe if they actually left tv programs in english and had thai text under it they would pick it up a lot easier, translating every single tv show into thai is pretty bad, even in the west they leave some programs in the original language and use english text. Problem is everyone in Thailand thinks that the thai language is simply yhr only one in the world worth speaking, until they realize they are not as important as they think they are and start to leave shows in the original language with thai text they will continue to be english illiterate as they simply do not hear enough of it spoken in everyday life.

[ratcatcher]

Burmese speak better English as well...

Oh, that's because those jolly nice chaps from the "Empire Upon Which The Sun Never Set", were there to make their lives more interesting and worthwhile.

[Srikcir]

Introduce english-speaking TV programs with Thai captioning on public programming.

Maybe even allow an international english-speaking news broadcast or create an ASEAN Community english news program. Even if it were focused on nonpolitical events, delivery in english is the main objective.

[toybits]

Just imagine if Thais learned English. Many of you blokes here in Thailand would be out of a job.

Edited September 23, 2015 by toybits

[Thai at Heart]

The internet is a very democratic institution: it allows everyone to participate in discussing any topic -- whether or not they have any knowledge or expertise about that topic.

Unfortunately, almost all the responses to and opinions expressed about this topic reveal a complete ignorance about the process of learning a second language.

1. Comparing the learning of one's native language to learning a second language is a false analogy. You are immersed in your first language from birth, 24 hours a day Starting to learn a second language around the age of 7 of 8 years of age in the classroom for even one hour a day will ensure that progress is painfully slow. Two years in a classroom is equivalent to one week in the country of the target language.

2. Those who advocates "speak first; grammar can come later" fail to realise that even the simplest phrases ("Hello, how are you") are based on correct grammar. There are three goals of language learning: reading, writing and speaking. The last one (speaking) is the hardest to acquire and requires years and years of practice.

3. Without some study of grammar all second-language speakers will speak fractured English -- O.K. for everyday communication, but a handicap when aiming for better-paying jobs (e.g. hotel receptionist).

4. To conduct an intelligent conversation in a second language requires approx. 3000 hours of study and practice -- that is, 10 hours a week for six years. Individual results may vary (some people have a "knack" for languages), but the average person will never speak truly fluently with a wide vocabulary without years of study and/or years spent in the country. How many farang do you know who speak fluent Thai? What percentage of the total number of permanent residents do they represent?

Trust me, I'm a Doctor - a retired Professor of Languages.

No one said it was easy......

Fact is most Thais barely speak English at all, but this generation is still markedly better than their parents.

No one is expecting the entire population to be fluent, but the overbearing focus on grammar versus spoken English isn't helping any of them. Plus it makes the whole thing a completely academic exercise versus something practical.

[JAG]

Can i hell you sir?

But we all understood what you meant. And given a spare 5 minutes I can teach you to sound your "p"s.

[JAG]

I'm currently teaching a general communication course that is run by a Thai teacher. I was asked what I thought of the book beforehand and I said it was awful as there was no real opportunity to get the students to speak. Lo and behold she chose the book anyway. As you can imagine we are having lots of fun with the endless vocabulary that is not given in context; when to use ooh, uh-oh and shoot; grammar points like causative's, need+passive infinitive or need+verb+ing. It's great if you like to sit at the front of the class with the microphone just reading the teacher's book to the students, but it means I have to do so much more because i need to cover all of that and find time to get a class of 35 speaking too. Incredibly frustrating!

I couldn't agree more on the subject of Textbooks. I was glancing at an M2 textbook the other day, ( I normally teach Pratom) and was faced by an in depth discussion of the pros and cons of youth hostelling in Northern Europe. Anything less relevant and accessible to a 14 year old in Northern Thailand is hard to imagine!

Still I suppose the fringe benefits for ordering a hundred plus copies were good.

Edited September 23, 2015 by JAG

[billd766]

Total Waffle !!

Do you have any constructive ideas or are you content just to criticise and waffle?

[JAG]

I taught my kids English. They Aced their TOEFL exams. I am not an English teacher.

Well done. A good result. Now try it with a mixed ability class of 37 12 year olds, 2 0f whom are at different levels on the asperges/autism spectrum and one who is in tears because her puppy died last night. I'm not disparaging what you did - but it's not the same as "teaching".

[gandalf12]

Looks a good idea as long as it tackled with determination and not just for a few days then declaring it not working. Out side help is essential as there are nuances in English that only a native English speaker will understand

[diehard60]

This is exactly what I have been saying for years. I used to do this with my students just to get them over the fear of speaking. And it works. I don't care wht the other say

[skildpadden]

Quite funny Thai sketch on English teaching in Thailand:

https://youtu.be/ILkAY58If9Q

Edited September 23, 2015 by skildpadden

[eliotness]

I have seen several chemistry lessons on the learning channels on the TV. So far from things relevant to young Thais. Much better to teach them the chemistry of food and agriculture. Far more chance of them taking an interest. If they then showed an understanding, ok move on to more abstract chemistry.

[JAG]

A language is made up from vocabulary and a structure - grammar if you like. It only has any use if it is itself used. Children need a basic grasp of both, and they must use the language. Grammar errors can be corrected if necessary if the child is speaking English. They cannot if the child won't try to speak.

[eliotness]

Burmese speak better English as well...

Oh, that's because those jolly nice chaps from the "Empire Upon Which The Sun Never Set", were there to make their lives more interesting and worthwhile.

So how do you explain the Cambodians, an ex French colony, being better at english.

[FangFerang]

ALL languages are learned in spoken form long before any writing or reading is seriously inserted. Further, all languages were spoken before a written form evolved. We even think Neanderthals had a spoken language.

[KVJ]

Well with the current thai national school program revealed - as outlined in this week's NY Times article - to be promoting trivial school contests instead of academics. It's quite obvious the last thing this government wants in Thailand is Thai people proficient in English.

Stay dumb, stay loyal is the motto.

Got a link to the NY Times article?

[ratcatcher]

Burmese speak better English as well...

Oh, that's because those jolly nice chaps from the "Empire Upon Which The Sun Never Set", were there to make their lives more interesting and worthwhile.

So how do you explain the Cambodians, an ex French colony, being better at english.

Well, sorry about the sarcasm elliot, I don't feel an explanation is/was necessary, but I guess the Cambodians decided they needed to be better than the Burmese so made an effort to learn English.

French isn't as useful as English on a worldwide scale, except when ordering classic cuisine.

[Lorn]

You can't communicate effectively unless you know how to change the verb to match context - eat, eats, ate, has eaten, is eating, was eating, will eat, is going to eat, will have eaten, had eaten etc. Grammar is essential otherwise people speak like bar girls - you eat mango today, you eat mango tomorrow, you eat mango now and that's just about it.

But you could transport a bar girl to a foreign (English speaking) country and she would survive on her own.

95% of Uni grads would starve

Quite true.

Laugh, as many will, at "bar-girl" English, the fact is that a many of the ladies who have made their way in the "R & R" business are far more competent at "communicating" in English , and sometimes other languages, than most of the people with university degrees employed at department stores, banks and other retail areas.

"Bar-girl" English is an effective way of communicating, hard on the ear for grammar purists indeed, but nevertheless effective and rewarding (for them).

I speak enough basic Thai to try to make myself understood, yet, unfortunately for me, have never had an hour's Thai language teaching. I learned by listening to Thais speak, both family, friends and TV and movies. Yet when I enter a bank or e.g. , an AIS office, I am lucky to find one basic English speaker.

I don't have a problem with the argument "Well, TIT, so speak Thai, but these people have all spent hours listening to a Thai teacher droning on about English grammar and sentence structure, without even having a basic conversation.

Some fortunate souls have had an overseas education and it shows.

Going to generalise a bit but your average Bar- girls have a few stock questions they ask and make no effort to actually understand your response. University students are less confident in their abilities but if pressed can have much more intelligent conversations, The only advantage bargirls may have, is dealing with new/strange accents, because they are going to come across a greater variety.

I really don't think those who keep spouting this nonsense about bargirls having better English skills, have actually talked to (m)any university students. Or perhaps due to them being obvious sex-pests, the classier ladies have no inclination to "communicate" with them" and fake an inability to understand what they are saying.

P.S Are people who work in retail and department stores, all university graduates?

[cornishcarlos]

You can't communicate effectively unless you know how to change the verb to match context - eat, eats, ate, has eaten, is eating, was eating, will eat, is going to eat, will have eaten, had eaten etc. Grammar is essential otherwise people speak like bar girls - you eat mango today, you eat mango tomorrow, you eat mango now and that's just about it.

But you could transport a bar girl to a foreign (English speaking) country and she would survive on her own.

95% of Uni grads would starve

Quite true.

Laugh, as many will, at "bar-girl" English, the fact is that a many of the ladies who have made their way in the "R & R" business are far more competent at "communicating" in English , and sometimes other languages, than most of the people with university degrees employed at department stores, banks and other retail areas.

"Bar-girl" English is an effective way of communicating, hard on the ear for grammar purists indeed, but nevertheless effective and rewarding (for them).

I speak enough basic Thai to try to make myself understood, yet, unfortunately for me, have never had an hour's Thai language teaching. I learned by listening to Thais speak, both family, friends and TV and movies. Yet when I enter a bank or e.g. , an AIS office, I am lucky to find one basic English speaker.

I don't have a problem with the argument "Well, TIT, so speak Thai, but these people have all spent hours listening to a Thai teacher droning on about English grammar and sentence structure, without even having a basic conversation.

Some fortunate souls have had an overseas education and it shows.

Going to generalise a bit but your average Bar- girls have a few stock questions they ask and make no effort to actually understand your response. University students are less confident in their abilities but if pressed can have much more intelligent conversations, The only advantage bargirls may have, is dealing with new/strange accents, because they are going to come across a greater variety.

I really don't think those who keep spouting this nonsense about bargirls having better English skills, have actually talked to (m)any university students. Or perhaps due to them being obvious sex-pests, the classier ladies have no inclination to "communicate" with them" and fake an inability to understand what they are saying.

P.S Are people who work in retail and department stores, all university graduates?

I have talked to plenty of Uni students. My wife runs a private tutoring school and so I interact with most of her students. Generally their grammar is excellent but they can't reply if I ask them what their name is ! I don't have an accent either...

The simple fact remains, dump them on their own in the middle of London or New York, 95% would be hard pressed to book into a hotel and get a meal.