The prevalence of using bought in curry pastes in Thai cooking in Thailand ...

[wooloomooloo]

But as a serious chef wanting to customize the flavor profile of your dish, as curry paste is often the dominant flavor profile of dishes that use it, it seems to me you'd want to make your own Thai curry pastes.

Nothing posted here has convinced me otherwise. So far.

My wife is a serious chef. She'll take shortcuts and when necessary she'll do the lot and that can take all day.

I let her get on with it.

[AyG]

But as a serious chef wanting to customize the flavor profile of your dish, as curry paste is often the dominant flavor profile of dishes that use it, it seems to me you'd want to make your own Thai curry pastes.

I think there is a currently a definite difference in attitudes to food between Occident and Orient. In Europe and America we laud chefs for their innovations - new ingredients, new tastes, new presentations. Here, however, tradition is valued more highly. A top chef is going to make the best possible version of a traditional dish, with the traditional flavour profile. OK, the presentation may be innovative, but the taste will be true to the original. A good chef here isn't going to want to "customize the flavor profile".

I think this is very much reflected in conversations with friends over meals here. They are very analytical of the food, commenting on the sweetness, spiciness, sourness, and so forth. And if something is out of balance it will be noted. However, very rarely are there comments along the lines of "oh, there should have been a touch more galangal", or "she should have used less kaffir lime rind in the paste". There is a Platonic ideal for each Thai curry, something to which each aspiring chef aspires. Innovation and "experimenting" are not the order of the day - balance and tradition are.

[Jingthing]

That's interesting but the flavors of Thai food in Thailand HAVE changed over the years. Older Thai people will tell you modern Thai food is MUCH SWEETER.

I must admit a western bias towards innovation for master chefs to put their own signature on the dishes. It may explain why some of the "best" Thai chefs in the world today according to western critics are not Thais.

I'll go even further. I don't think in general that modern Thai cooking rates among the best in the world today, judged by global standards, not "Thainess" standards.

Yes I do of course love good Thai food and feel lucky that I can enjoy it living in Thailand. Just trying to be objective about it.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Jingthing

[AyG]

That's interesting but the flavors of Thai food in Thailand HAVE changed over the years. Older Thai people will tell you modern Thai food is MUCH SWEETER.

I must admit a western bias towards innovation for master chefs to put their own signature on the dishes. It may explain why some of the "best" Thai chefs in the world today according to western critics are not Thais.

I'll go even further. I don't think in general that modern Thai cooking rates among the best in the world today, judged by global standards, not "Thainess" standards.

Yes I do of course love good Thai food and feel lucky that I can enjoy it living in Thailand. Just trying to be objective about it.

You really need to distinguish between top quality cuisine, average food, and food for the poor (for want of a better expression).

Yes, generally Thai food is much sweeter than it was, but that's really been for the mass market. It's really not that different from the fast food joints of America lading everything with massive amounts of fat, salt and sugar. It appeals to the mass market and boosts profits. Similarly you can't judge the cuisine of America by McDonald's and KFC.

There's also been a shift in proteins. Green curry here, previously only made with beef, is now made mostly with chicken and fish balls, totally losing the purpose of the precise blend of the curry paste (to neutralise the odour and taste of beef). There has been a concomitant change in the curry paste to adapt to the new proteins. However, there is a sadly now a certain ignorance about the roots of the cuisine.

As for the "best Thai chefs ... are not Thai", I think you'll find that these chefs put a lot of effort in trying to understand the roots of Thai cuisine and want to capture that in their food, rather than innovate. Perhaps Neil Perry not so much (I consider him pan-Asian, rather than Thai), but David Thompson certainly (with his collection of Thai funerary books), and Henrik Yde-Andersen. I'm not sure I'd rate Dylan Jones as a "best Thai chef" just yet (though he's pretty good), but again, he strives pretty obsessively to capture the authentic tastes of the past.

[Jingthing]

Just making some generalizations. In general Thai food could be more creative. Of course innovation just for the sake of novelty isn't desirable.

Now getting into grander generalizations ... definitely a bigger area than the original thread, and of course only my subjection impressions.

It seems to me that Thai food culture is STUCK IN A RUT. Not really heading anywhere. Staying the same.

I contrast this to other world cuisines.

Peruvian food, like Thai a rich mixture of influences including from Asia, has emerged due to some amazing chefs and a different culture in Peru into one the most exciting and creative food scenes on the planet. The influence of the master chefs has filtered down to change Peruvian food culture, in Peru, and internationally. International chefs go to study with the innovative Peruvians chefs and are probably making their own marks on it outside Peru.

American food, which yes I know many people think is crap because they don't understand it, has evolved in dramatic ways. The American food done by good chefs is almost unrecognizable from the American food of the 1950s, even in good restaurants. There is a reason American food used to be really bad ... it was a developing frontier nation where other things just had more priority but now it has matured, arguably become more decadent, but the food really is different and changed.

Chinese food. There are two Chinese chefs in the U.S. that I particularly love. Both from China (Sechuan and Hong Kong). One of them a Sechuan chef considered by food critics to be among the best chefs in the US, not only the best among Chinese or Asian chefs. These two chefs have STARTED with their traditional food culture and because of their talent they have tweaked it in remarkable ways, but the food still tastes authentically Chinese. In the case of the Sechuan chef he is being widely copied, and even if his innovations never make it back to China, he has changed Sechuan cooking forever.

I don't see that kind of thing in the evolution Thai food. Like at all. Some remarkable chefs, yes, but I don't see a filtering of their influence to actually really CHANGE/PROGRESS Thai food culture in general.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Jingthing

[AyG]

I don't see that kind of thing in the evolution Thai food. Like at all. Some remarkable chefs, yes, but I don't see a filtering of their influence to actually really CHANGE/PROGRESS Thai food culture in general.

I'm not sure that change is necessarily progress. Thai food has changed significantly over the last 50 years, but mostly not for the better. The variety of dishes available has reduced. Sugar is used more heavily. And short cuts, such as frying curry paste in oil, rather than cracking coconut cream, have become common. One of the Bangkok Post's weekend columnists (whose name eludes me. He's a retired editor.) regularly writes ruefully on such themes.

I'm also reminded of a comment made by Chef McDang in an article I read a few years ago about how there was no such thing as "Royal" Thai cuisine. What he ate as child living in the palace was the same as ordinary people ate, just better presented and a greater number of dishes.

Over a longer timescale, I'd posit that Thai cuisine has changed more than that of China or France. During the Ayutthaya period Thailand adopted new ingredients from abroad such as capsicums, chillies, peanuts, potatoes, aubergines. Later there were Chinese influences such as deep fat frying, noodles, and the whole gamut of Thai-Chinese dishes. The use of coconut milk in curries came from Indian traders. There are the Portuguese desserts. And traditionally eggs were not eaten.

[tutsiwarrior]

JT...you've done it again! a wonderful discussion regarding the merits of culinary, etc...including everything (growing herbs) made from scratch!

but the last time that I was in town I made a masaman using a Lobo packet that took 30 mins to prepare and the wife followed her nose then came down to my kitchen and stole most of it...

follow the directions on the packet then throw in sliced pork loin and tatties and 'bobs yer uncle'...

probably carcinogenic as hell but who gives a ...

oh, 'give me bacon, spodiodi and sausages, spodiodi, ham spodiodi' and etc...but in moderate amounts only...

Edited October 27, 2015 by tutsiwarrior

[bandos2000]

i once ran a small restaurant in a north east province, my chef bought the paste from the local market, the massaman was the best ive ever had , and lots of others thought so as well. me being the idiot i am , never learnt how he did it exactly,one day i will track him down to find out.

[eldragon]

It's impossible to imagine a restaurant using bought in curry pastes winning a Michelin star

It's impossible to imagine a Thai restaurant getting a Michelin star

I could be mistaken, but I believe Michelin stars are only (have only been) awarded in Europe, USA, Japan, and Hong Kong/Macau.

[eldragon]

There might be a few exceptions, but I'm fairly certain most of the markets make or buy the curry pastes in very large quantities. These curry pastes are known to have large amounts of salt and other preservatives to help stretch out the shelf life. I assume most of the better restaurants make their own pastes, but it could be rare. When it comes down to it, a lot of the Thai food tastes the same these days. Very little is unique.

[Jingthing]

Ouch.

[Jingthing]

It's impossible to imagine a restaurant using bought in curry pastes winning a Michelin star

It's impossible to imagine a Thai restaurant getting a Michelin star

I could be mistaken, but I believe Michelin stars are only (have only been) awarded in Europe, USA, Japan, and Hong Kong/Macau.

Doesn't matter. Wasn't meant to be taken that literally.

[eldragon]

It's impossible to imagine a restaurant using bought in curry pastes winning a Michelin star

It's impossible to imagine a Thai restaurant getting a Michelin star

I could be mistaken, but I believe Michelin stars are only (have only been) awarded in Europe, USA, Japan, and Hong Kong/Macau.

Doesn't matter. Wasn't meant to be taken that literally.

Fair enough. But I can't imagine a Thai restaurant getting a Michelin star either. Not clean enough.