Saving Face - By Lying?!

[Kf6vci]

Hi All, how would you see this? I came across Thais who chose blatant lies over the truth and it was explained to me my that they have been acting like this "to save face". Examples: the broadband and phone bills hadn't been paid and one day, both got disconnected. A resolution was promised. Weeks later, it appeared that the promise was intentionally false. So from day one, it was very clear to the Thasi wanting to save face that she was lyign and that she would not make the payment as promised. - I'm not sure how to take this. // another example is about lying within the family. One student will get thrown out, after already dropping 2 of 5 subjects. But he made his mother cough up for next year's student fees knowing very well that he will get kicked out of this degree program. mom will only get 60% back. So - he has Mom waste about THB 10,000 just to "save face" for a few extra days?! I would have thought that both examples will result in a dramatic l o s s of face! Can someone explain this, please?

[Vespa]

Hi All, how would you see this? I came across Thais who chose blatant lies over the truth and it was explained to me my that they have been acting like this "to save face". Examples: the broadband and phone bills hadn't been paid and one day, both got disconnected. A resolution was promised. Weeks later, it appeared that the promise was intentionally false. So from day one, it was very clear to the Thasi wanting to save face that she was lyign and that she would not make the payment as promised. - I'm not sure how to take this. // another example is about lying within the family. One student will get thrown out, after already dropping 2 of 5 subjects. But he made his mother cough up for next year's student fees knowing very well that he will get kicked out of this degree program. mom will only get 60% back. So - he has Mom waste about THB 10,000 just to "save face" for a few extra days?! I would have thought that both examples will result in a dramatic l o s s of face! Can someone explain this, please?

Common Thai flaw

[GuestHouse]

Saving Face - By Lying?!, is this common? I'm astonished and puzzled

Guys do it on here all the time.

[Sing_Sling]

Saving Face - By Lying?!, is this common? I'm astonished and puzzled

Guys do it on here all the time.

Nooooo, say it isn't so!!!

It definitely is more pronounced than in many other countries . . . but saying it's purely a matter of saving face is a bit simplistic.

[mazo]

My wife will tell me black is white to save face when she is wrong. If i push the fact that she is wrong she will just shut up and go in to thai silence mode. I have told her that there is nothing wrong with making a mistake thats how pepole learn but to lie and cover it up is wrong. I have come across many cases of blatant lieing in thailand and i must say i realy dont like it.

[Soph]

Oh yes, its brilliant - just lie to make things sound better, I saw it with my boyfriend, work colleagues, travel agents, laundy ladies - especially when the dye your clothes dodgy colours then swear that they didnt do it. I found it rubbing off on me a little bit too, funny.

[udon]

To the OP.

If staying in Thailand, you'd better get used to it.

Saying that, I do love it when g/f's go in to "silent mode" when confronted with the truth.

To Vespa;

Why would you quote the OP if you are the first person to respond?

[Sing_Sling]

Why would you quote the OP if you are the first person to respond

I was wondering the same, it creates longer and longer threads to scroll through.

I like Vespa's avatar, though . . . but why not a Vespa?

[lannarebirth]

Saving Face - By Lying?!, is this common?

Is it common? Why, I think it's a rule.

[a2396]

For me this is one of the big "downers" of living in Thailand. One can never know what to believe, particularly with someone you do not know well or you have no way of veryfiying the truth about something. I assume they don't really view it as lying, but I have always wondered how this constant twisting of the truth squares with the tenets of the local religion, which is practiced so devoutly here.

[TBWG]

I like Vespa's avatar, though . . . but why not a Vespa?

Alternatively ... why not a wasp?

TBWG

[Maizefarmer]

Saving face by lieing - I think its "common" everywhere - I dont feel its down to culture - lieing is down to character - thats my take on it, but yes the "loosing face" thing is a bit of an issue here and if the situation involves lieing, then if that person has that character trait they are likely to do just that.

Tim

[higgy88]

For me, I think the problem is that I have always thought of true or false, and all of the gray inbetween, as adjectives used to describe something. While IMHO the Thais seem to see these as nouns, things to be used or not used depending on the situation and of course what they think is in their best interests. A much different way of seeing things than I do. It certainly keeps me on my toes.

[patri]

Example 2, That's not saving face.... the kid just did it to save his ass, for a time being. He just didn't know any better.

He just dare not to tell his mom since falling from the class is a very serious matter for some parents around here. This is not about the face of the kid, it's more about the face of the parents.

Edited October 2, 2006 by patri

[Sing_Sling]

I like Vespa's avatar, though . . . but why not a Vespa?

Alternatively ... why not a wasp?

TBWG

Indeed . . . good point!

[alexth]

Lieing is part of the Thai culture...not sure if it's for face saving or for something else though

[Douggie Style]

in some cultures its a necessity

[Plus]

Sometimes their lies are just naive believe that things will really happen their way - they wish they happen their way and so they tell you.

Sometimes they don't have time and real justification to really think up an honest answer and just want to get rid of you. It's like talking to kids - people make all sorts of lies to make them go away.

[PeaceBlondie]

Western civilizations place a very high value on truth telling. In the USA at least, one is expected to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God" when testifying in court, or by affidavit. But they lie, and feel guilty.

I think that in general, Thais don't value absolute truth, not in the Western sense. They don't want to hear bad news, even if it's bad truth. Nobody (including farang) wants to lose face. If they can't solve the problem easily within their own power in a short time, the 'truth' is mai bpen rai, beside the point, irrelevant.

Almost everybody tells "little white lies." Most Thais have different ways of measuring 'little' and 'white.'

After three years here, I find that it's easy and shameless to tell huge dark lies.

[dgoz]

What about gf's, wives and cheating.

Do these face saving lies come into play here? On both sides.

[kayo]

Saving Face.... There is often a given situation where the thai would not NEED to lie, if (s)he was not confronted with his/her error.

By the confrontation, there is a NEED to save face.

Hence, in many cases, the lie can be avoided, by not confronting the person.

I specify "in many cases", meaning, sometimes something is so obvious, it is our trait to want to stand on our soap box and point it out. maybe it makes us feel superoir or whatever.

But if the situation is obvious anyway, what's the point (except for our need to feel better)?

Let the sleeping dog lie, and (s)he won't need to lie (p.t.pun)

song baht... ch..ching!

[Ulysses G.]

Lieing is part of the Thai culture...not sure if it's for face saving or for something else though

It's just easier than telling someone something that they don't want to hear sometimes.

[Camelot]

...especially true when the question concerns age, salary, fidelity or marital status, or so I've heard.

[Maldoror]

Everyone lies, in all countries and at all levels. "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!!!!" (From a movie. I believe "Code Red").

Hungary have at present an issue with the duly appointed PM taped where he admits lying to his fellow Hungarians in order to proceed to a higher goal. The intelligence that led to the Coalition forces to invade Iraq has been questioned. Some say it was misinterpreted, vague and even falsified.

Some lie to make a cover up for alreday made mistakes in a, sometimes desperate, attempt to save "face". Others lie because they (honestly) believe that the lie will eventually become ...true. And amount to something good. In a day or two. Or soon after.

To lie is a tricky business. Means you have to keep record of what is true and what is not in a number of situations you might or might not encounter. I have had my fair share of those moments where I have been told, "no problem, it will be OK, no lie, just little bit", to say this to that person and that to another one, act in a certain way, etc and so forth. That's not going to happen! I speak the truth or keep my silence. Or use the fascinating "white lie" concept.

"Tell me what you really thought about that book I recommended."

"It was the best book I read in a long time. Thank you".

Maldoror

[chownah]

One aspect of face that is often overlooked by westerners is that the person asking a question which requires a lie to avoid embarassment has lost face too and in some situations the person asking the clumsy question loses more face than the person telling the lie in response (lieing does involve loss of face but in a small and mostly insignificant way....depending on the lie and its consequences). Most westerners are used to direct questions because they think that the answer is the most important thing while Thai people often see the quality of the interaction as being more important than the results.

Chownah

[the swagman]

...especially true when the question concerns age, salary, fidelity or marital status, or so I've heard.

What country or culture are we talking about here?

Everybody or deserves a certain amount of privacy. And indeed many like a bit of mystery.

[the swagman]

Everyone lies, in all countries and at all levels. "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!!!!" (From a movie. I believe "Code Red").

Hungary have at present an issue with the duly appointed PM taped where he admits lying to his fellow Hungarians in order to proceed to a higher goal. The intelligence that led to the Coalition forces to invade Iraq has been questioned. Some say it was misinterpreted, vague and even falsified.

Some lie to make a cover up for alreday made mistakes in a, sometimes desperate, attempt to save "face". Others lie because they (honestly) believe that the lie will eventually become ...true. And amount to something good. In a day or two. Or soon after.

To lie is a tricky business. Means you have to keep record of what is true and what is not in a number of situations you might or might not encounter. I have had my fair share of those moments where I have been told, "no problem, it will be OK, no lie, just little bit", to say this to that person and that to another one, act in a certain way, etc and so forth. That's not going to happen! I speak the truth or keep my silence. Or use the fascinating "white lie" concept.

"Tell me what you really thought about that book I recommended."

"It was the best book I read in a long time. Thank you".

Maldoror

The movie was called 'A Few Good Men' Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise.

Everybody lies. It is not a trait perticular to any race or culture.

The idea of 'face' is a complex one. Chownah explains one aspect of it it well.

[terry57]

hello punters,

i have a theory about lying and its not very hard to understand.

when im in farang land i never tell lie's because at sometime down the track it will come back and bite you on the arse.

when it does, one will pay a very large price as you will lose all credibility and trust with people especially if you try it on with your friends.

id much rather face issue's head on and put people off side rather than tell lies.

it's like this forum and the stories ive told along the way. they have all been true and i can always back myself up as has been proved in one controversial case where a punter accused me of lying.

now the thai's are a totally different story as its about this loss of face, which i must say is the only thing i hate about thailand.

its drives me insane and ive always grappled with this concept but it explains why they lie and its all about this loss of face business.

i hate lying and always have.

told a few porky's when i was a kid though.

end of story.

cheers friends

[Johpa]

Read Niels Muldar's book on Everyday Life in Thailand to get one of the better views as to why Thais value "face" more than "truth" in many, of not most, circumstances.

[GracelessFawn]

Saving face in Thailand is a common practice. It seems that everybody does it in one way or another. And yeah, some would even go as far as lie or cheat inorder to save face.

Saying, " I'm Sorry" makes them lost face! And saying, "I made a mistake" makes them lost face even more.

And just a hint - never confront them! (That could make them lost face as well.)

And if you ever get into any argument with a Thai, do make sure that he was a way to back down or defend himself in order ot save face.

Edited October 3, 2006 by GracelessFawn