Expected too much in Thailand?

[JLCrab]

Per the above, Nicholas Kristof is a now a NY Times columnist who, with his wife, won a Pulitzer Prize for their 1989 Tianamen Square protest coverage, this from 2010:

Here’s a one-word language test to measure whether someone really knows a foreign country and culture: What’s the word for doorknob? People who have studied a language in a classroom rarely know the answer. But those who have been embedded in a country know.

Edited November 12, 2015 by JLCrab

[SoiBiker]

I can't really imagine in what scenario it would be necessary to know the word for 'doorknob', to be honest.

[CharlieH]

Unless you wanted to buy them to put on a new door to the house/room?

[JLCrab]

I always take it with a large pinch of salt when anybody here claims to be 'fluent' in Thai.

Can you tell if they are fluent?

[JLCrab]

I can't really imagine in what scenario it would be necessary to know the word for 'doorknob', to be honest.

From wikipedia: Bill Clinton said in September 2009 regarding Nicolas Kristof:

"There is no one in journalism, anywhere in the United States at least, who has done anything like the work he has done to figure out how poor people are actually living around the world, and what their potential is....So every American citizen who cares about this should be profoundly grateful that someone in our press establishment cares enough about this to haul himself all around the world to figure out what's going on....I am personally in his debt, as are we all."

But I guess you would know better.

[SoiBiker]

I always take it with a large pinch of salt when anybody here claims to be 'fluent' in Thai.

Can you tell if they are fluent?

Are you unfamiliar with the idiom I used? It implies scepticism.

If I was able to confirm the statement either way, why would I be sceptical about it?

[SoiBiker]

Unless you wanted to buy them to put on a new door to the house/room?

I'd probably just pick one of the shelves and take it to the till.

[JLCrab]

I always take it with a large pinch of salt when anybody here claims to be 'fluent' in Thai.

Can you tell if they are fluent?

Are you unfamiliar with the idiom I used? It implies scepticism.

If I was able to confirm the statement either way, why would I be sceptical about it?

Yes and some people can tell whether someone is fluent or not by listening to them.

Edited November 12, 2015 by JLCrab

[SoiBiker]

I can't really imagine in what scenario it would be necessary to know the word for 'doorknob', to be honest.

From wikipedia: Bill Clinton said in September 2009 regarding Nicolas Kristof:

"There is no one in journalism, anywhere in the United States at least, who has done anything like the work he has done to figure out how poor people are actually living around the world, and what their potential is....So every American citizen who cares about this should be profoundly grateful that someone in our press establishment cares enough about this to haul himself all around the world to figure out what's going on....I am personally in his debt, as are we all."

But I guess you would know better.

I'm sure his credentials are impeccable.

Nevertheless, I can't recall when I last used the word 'doorknob' in English, let alone in any other language.

Other people might use it every day, I suppose. I can't imagine why, though.

[MaeJoMTB]

Unless you wanted to buy them to put on a new door to the house/room?

I'd probably just pick one of the shelves and take it to the till.

I take a photo on my smartphone, and show it to a sales assistant.

Works most of the time.

(Luuk Bit)

Edited November 12, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[SoiBiker]

I always take it with a large pinch of salt when anybody here claims to be 'fluent' in Thai.

Can you tell if they are fluent?

Are you unfamiliar with the idiom I used? It implies scepticism.

If I was able to confirm the statement either way, why would I be sceptical about it?

Yes and some people can tell whether someone is fluent or not by listening to them.

By 'here' I meant on Thaivisa.

[SoiBiker]

Unless you wanted to buy them to put on a new door to the house/room?

I'd probably just pick one of the shelves and take it to the till.

I take a photo on my smartphone, and show it to a sales assistant.

Works most of the time.

You take photos of your knob and show them to people?

[JLCrab]

I can't really imagine in what scenario it would be necessary to know the word for 'doorknob', to be honest.

Kristof notes in the full article that it's the kind of word you learn from practical experience being in a country and not just sitting in a classroom

... and I take everything here with a grain of salt.

Edited November 12, 2015 by JLCrab

[SoiBiker]

I can't really imagine in what scenario it would be necessary to know the word for 'doorknob', to be honest.

Kristof notes in the full article that it's the kind of word you learn from practical experience being in a country and not just sitting in a cllassroom

Yes. I grasped that point.

I'm not sure it's a very good example, though, for the reasons I've stated.

Don't take it personally, though. We don't have to agree.

[JLCrab]

I can't really imagine in what scenario it would be necessary to know the word for 'doorknob', to be honest.

Kristof notes in the full article that it's the kind of word you learn from practical experience being in a country and not just sitting in a cllassroom

Yes. I grasped that point.

I'm not sure it's a very good example, though, for the reasons I've stated.

Don't take it personally, though. We don't have to agree.

Kristof thinks it was a good example -- that's good enough for me if you know who he is.

[SoiBiker]

I can't really imagine in what scenario it would be necessary to know the word for 'doorknob', to be honest.

Kristof notes in the full article that it's the kind of word you learn from practical experience being in a country and not just sitting in a cllassroom

Yes. I grasped that point.

I'm not sure it's a very good example, though, for the reasons I've stated.

Don't take it personally, though. We don't have to agree.

Kristof thinks it was a good example -- that's good enough for me if you know who he is.

Fair enough. Personally I tend to apply critical thinking to what I read, regardless of the source. But each to his own.

[JLCrab]

Critical thinking is fine but when one has traveled to 150+ countries as a working journalist, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. BTW Bill Gates said reading one of Kristof's 1997 NY Times articles on child mortality was an inspiration in their starting the Gates Foundation's focus on world health.

BTW when that article first appeared in 2010, I did not know or had ever used the word 'doorknob' in Thai but I was able t figure it out. Also, when the article appeared there were on NY Times comments that it was not a good example because there are many cultures that do not even have doorknobs. But I think Nick was aware of that.

Edited November 12, 2015 by JLCrab

[fekman]

I think personality types come into play....Those that are quieter - a touch reserved and introspective and have a genuine curiousity and interest in Thailand and it's people do well here. Thai folks enjoy and embrace enthusiasm in a reserved way.

In many ways they are a reserved and traditional culture.

It is a 180 from some peoples cultures and life experiences.

If someone comes here that is

loutish - brash - loud - harsh - judgemental & uncomprehending wanting to change those around them to be like themselves will not fare well here long term no matter their bank account.....They are wired completely differently from the Thai people....

Odds are good they also ran out of time and people/friends where they came from aside from a couple of drinking cronies......So here would be a good place to restart and sort it all out - bad choice.....

Some won't do the simple things like eat Thai food, experience enough of the culture to learn, they live and shop in farang enclaves, mix only with the Thais they buy - then wonder why Thailand falls short of their expectations......

My Thai is VERY poor.....Unfortunately languages have always been a gift I never possessed.

That being said; although I will never blend in - but I really have never experienced an uncomfortable feeling amongst the Thai people....From day one......

Family wise here has the same feeling as family at my birth country.....No one has to work at it and it just flows....Think maybe I got lucky in that respect - or maybe somehow I earned it....

Being respectful, enthusiastically

curious, quiet - relaxed demeanor, with a smile will get you a long way here towards acceptance.....

I've traveled nonstop for almost 9 years. Been to 72 countries and lived in 6 for more than 6 months. My buddy said "Bro, do you hate LOS yet? The Thais HATE us bro. Don't buy into the fake smiles. THEY HATE US. Go to Philippines, they love us there."

.

After 16 months here, I am starting to feel a bit of that. I noticed they love us, as long as we are buying from them. I used to buy a latte almost every day here near my place. The family couldnt be nicer, yelling across the street when they saw me. I stopped amonth ago, as I want to eliminate dairy. They ignore me now, and even give dirty looks when they see me. They make it impossible to do business here. The hurdles are endless. They just want you to spend money (stupidly) from income you earned outside of LOS. They want uninformed, spend-hard tourists. There is a Thai saying that loosely translates to "a foreigner who knows Thailand well is useless to us"

.

Visa issues make things tougher now. Considering PP Cambodia. EZ stay, EZ business, EZ regulation....

[Nowisee]

Awfully assumptive... why do you think people want to turn 180's?

[Stevemercer]

Well, the beaches, surf and fishing along the Gulf coast are a bit disappointing coming from Australia. The Andaman Sea is better and nearly as good. But everything else is better.

[Cypress Hill]

Most of the "unfulfilled expectations" foreigners experience stem from the fact that they just can't handle being a minority.

They're used to having all the clout, all the say, all the influence and, in Thailand, they ain't got jack . . . even with the benefit of big baht

Certainly, there are some who manage just fine but there's a significant hardcore that yearns for the feeling of security and power that comes with being part of the majority that dishes out the crap rather than having to take it.

The ignominy of having people they'd typically walk all over back home telling them not only when to jump but also how high is just too much to bear for some of the old colonials

It's only hard to cope with if you think you should be treated better on account of the colour of your skin or the nationality in your passport

What a load of old blx.

Wow, such an intellectual argument.

Let me guess . . . Eton? No, Harrow??

[fang37]

In the very beginning, maybe.

Big hopes & dreams to be met.

After a few years, reality sets in - actually enjoy living in LOS (except Immigration Office).

[slipperylobster]

I think a big part of it is realising that the small strips of bars in particular tourist areas are far removed from daily life in Thailand. The realisation that to hang out in bars with prostitutes is no different to doing the same in any other country.

Thai guys do much the same, but in different bars with different prostitutes.

In Thailand nearly all men hang out with hookers ....... at some time.

Not only in thailand..but most of asia. I spent 7 years in Japan, and those guys had company credit cards. The sole purpose of these company credit cards were to entertain clientale in karaoke bars filled with foreign women. It was much more subdued..no short times. Basically, they would arrange an afternooner at a Love Motel in a secluded resort. They went through great lengths to keep secrecy. Korea was much the same. In Thailand, you can bet the money guys are loading golf bags in the back of the vehicle, for a quick 9 hole followed up by a 3 holer.

Please don't ask me specifics...this is factual.. The foreign girls were russian, chinese, filipina, and thai. Pretty much it. Japanese girls were reserved for the extremely affluent.

Edited November 12, 2015 by slipperylobster

[fang37]

Never ever have I been with a hooker.

If I did I would have to confess to Father Brian.

Father B is very demanding as you can guess.

[vento]

I felt kind if dissapointed in Any country i lived in. No matter where i go, it Will never be perfect. Ad i get older i kind of expect to be dissapointed with sine things, and thats made it easier to deal with "the things"

[SoiBiker]

It's interesting when people justify their involvement in prostitution by saying that some of the locals do it.

Some of the locals also deal drugs. Is it ok for us to do that too?

[Lukasisgood]

Many retirees especially the drinkers are unhappy wherever they retire. Here in the states they are sitting at the bar still complaining about the government an yelling at the television. It's the same wherever you go.

[MaeJoMTB]

It's interesting when people justify their involvement in prostitution by saying that some of the locals do it.

Some of the locals also deal drugs. Is it ok for us to do that too?

Almost every guy I have ever met does prostitutes and drugs.

It's entirely normal in any country.

I used drugs almost every evening in the UK, they were readily available, and not expensive.

I used prostitutes frequently in Thailand (when I was a bit younger), why not, they were there, and not expensive.

When I was in the USA, nearly every middle class party I attended had cannabis and cocaine on the table.

But to equate drinking with hookers to dealing drugs is a bit of a stretch, even for you.

Edited November 12, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[slipperylobster]

Many retirees especially the drinkers are unhappy wherever they retire. Here in the states they are sitting at the bar still complaining about the government an yelling at the television. It's the same wherever you go

exactly true. I waited a long time to get back to the Philippines (retired serviceman). However, when I arrived, there were only a few places left that resembled what I knew in the mid seventies. Pinatubo had pretty much decimated the area, and it was slowly rebuilt. There were a few bars/ladies left.... and it was very pathetic. Now Angeles is busting out from side to side with gals and bars...but I have long given that up.

But my memories were of the old, retired sailors in subic bay. Not one of them looked at a girl or smiled. They all screamed and shouted at each other, or at fox news...while 10 gorgeous girls would be dancing, half naked, behind them.

I never got over it. And...to tell you the truth...I would much rather see a smartly dressed gal in a mall, than a naked one in a sleazy bar ...be it subic or thailand...

yeah ...i still look. and its not at fox news. But I do not imbibe. Happy with what I have at home.

[SoiBiker]

It's interesting when people justify their involvement in prostitution by saying that some of the locals do it.

Some of the locals also deal drugs. Is it ok for us to do that too?

Almost every guy I have ever met does prostitutes and drugs.

It's entirely normal in any country.

I used drugs almost every evening in the UK, they were readily available, and not expensive.

I used prostitutes frequently in Thailand (when I was a bit younger), why not, they were there, and not expensive.

When I was in the USA, nearly every middle class party I attended had cannabis and cocaine on the table.

But to equate drinking with hookers to dealing drugs is a bit of a stretch, even for you.

That says more about the people that you hang out with than anything else.

I know you guys want to believe that all men do what you do. But they don't.