Getting Your Tongue Around It...

[bkkmick]

Hi

My spoken Thai isn't too bad, but I always get stuck with the ร pronounciation.

My wife says that it should come out as a cross between r sound and the l sound. When I listen to people speaking it generally sounds like an L (e.g. Long Lhem rather than Rong Rhem).

Is it generally ok for a farang just to make it sound like the L sound?

I hope that all makes sense.

Mick

[kayo]

kids in your pic are adorable bkkmike. the one on the right looks a bit like one o' my nieces.

I'm perhaps not best qualified to answer this one, but I would say, listen to your local thais speaking english... Some of them say the l some say the r. So when you speak the thai phonetic sound thai, adapt yourself in that regard?

[meadish_sweetball]

You should preferably have a distinct rolling r for ร, close to the one used in Scottish or Spanish, but unlike the 'r' sound used in most varieties of English. Since I don't know what your variety of English pronunciation is like, it's hard to say exactly what you need to do... but I'll give it a shot anyway.

The way you achieve this trilled r sound is by letting the tip of your tongue trill (bounce repeatedly) off your hard palate, which is the ridge just behind your front teeth.

If you want a good guide for pronunciation, you should modulate your speech on newsreaders, as they are required to have distinct, rolling รs and also pronounce other words clearly and correctly.

The fact that many Thai people (especially Northern and Northeastern Thais, but also Central Plains and Bangkok people of lower education) often pronounce ร and ล the same does not mean you should do the same. You should also avoid using the type of 'r' that is common in Midwestern American English or Irish, as that type of 'r' is one of the distinguishing features Thai use when they make fun of Westerners trying to speak Thai.

As for ล it should sound the same as initial l in Southern British English, i.e. not a 'dark' L as in American. Try to listen to how I pronounce raw reua and law ling in the mp3 attached below (Sorry about my English accent - my Thai is better ;-)).

I added an mp3 to this post which I hope is helpful. Feel free to download it. Pronunciation_of_the_phonemes_Ror_Reua_and_Law_Ling.mp3

[guardian]

Anyone else notice this............ How Thais pronounce some words containing "ล" "L"? Many such words, I notice they pronounce it as "N". eg. Pahonyothin.

[meadish_sweetball]

^That is the standard and correct pronunciation - ล, ร, ฬ are always pronounced as /n/ in syllable final position, except for some loans from English where it sounds like ว /w/ by some speakers - I remember meeting a Thai friend outside the cinema and asking what film he'd seen - the answer was kiw biw (Kill Bill).

I was then told by Richard W this pronunciation of syllable final L is used in Estuarine English, too.

[bkkmick]

Thanks for the replies guys.

(yea, Kayo, they are cute. Even if I am a bit biased).

I can roll the R but to my (Northern Irish) ear, when I hear Thai people pronounce a Thai word like Hotel or School, it always sounds as if the words are pronounced using an L sound to start each word.

Ah well, I'll just keep trying to roll it as M_S suggests. Kind of tickles my tongue so there is some advantage (for me).

All the best

Mick

p.s. When you order your bill you ask for a check 'bin' I was wondering of the origin. Then I seen it written in Thai - บิล which looks like Bill but, as M_S points out, ends up sounding like Bin. That's my conspiricy theory anyway. My mates here in BKK insist that it came from American GI's - guess that sounds at as reasonable.

[meadish_sweetball]

I can roll the R but to my (Northern Irish) ear, when I hear Thai people pronounce a Thai word like Hotel or School, it always sounds as if the words are pronounced using an L sound to start each word.

There's nothing wrong with your ear.

You are 100% correct that most people pronounce ร exactly the same as ล... but if you catch them at it, they also know there should be a difference, and most of them can achieve it if they concentrate.

This is a case where the spoken language has evolved but the writing has stayed the same. Happens with all languages at some point... It is usually quite difficult to reverse these changes, if not impossible.

People tend to speak as they like instead of listening to their teachers or government department recommendations. ...but, for a foreigner there is no reason to emulate the "bad" habits.

[samran]

This is a case where the spoken language has evolved but the writing has stayed the same. Happens with all languages at some point... It is usually quite difficult to reverse these changes, if not impossible.

I'm not the academic here, but it basically takes a revolution, like say in Laos, for them to change the writing system totally. My understanding (from the lonely planet no less.... is that they basically abolished the equivelent of 'r' from the lao script for being too 'foreign' (ie...Thai!)

For me, I try and do the 'r' every now and again, but is sounds a bit forced. There was a stage where I was doing it all the time and got quite good at it (university teacher was a stickler), but you get lazy, or you don't want to seem to uppity in social situations, so you drop the 'r' for the more common 'l'.

[sbk]

Unless you live in the south Samran, southerners are quite capable of rolling their "r"s and do so quite clearly. Your "l" sound will mark you out as an uppity city person

[qualigenz]

Unless you live in the south Samran, southerners are quite capable of rolling their "r"s and do so quite clearly. Your "l" sound will mark you out as an uppity city person

I am from the south and not a poor educated, but I cann't make that rolling as well. I guess it is inherited from my teacher My son does it very well and he laugh at me when I try to do it right. I believe that if you try to force it, your tongue will get twist in higher degree. So, I let it be.