Why The War? When Did It Start?

[Donz]

Dam my Thai gf makes me take out the garbage, dam I should of met a Thai girl in Thailand instead of sydney hey

[Jersey_UK]

And for your 223rd post JerseyUk? Oh me oh my!!! I wasn't, I didn't????

Post No. 223, just for you

Anyone know what this " " means??

[Nam Kao]

Khall64 sounds nice

[sbk]

(ok, apart from anybody whose wife has / had a d#ck )

And here I was thinking, "why is 'duck' being censored?"

[Sheryl]

The "war" O/P refers to wasn't sdo much a war as a social upheavel and it ended a long time ago. Its only current reality is in his head and those of similiar minded men who haven't been able to accept the outcome. Most of these are from the generation in which the upheaval occurred, so they were raised to expect a set of privileges and gender roles that then did not materialize, and some of them are still unable to deal with it. It's a minority of that generation overall, but they are disporportionately represented among western men living in asia . And they are obsessively vocal about it...unfortunately, on the ladies forum of all places.

As most of the other ladies posting have said -- it's your problem, not ours.

[cathyy]

As most of the other ladies posting have said -- it's your problem, not ours.

And no amount of whining and blaming women for it can make it our problem!

[Soju]

The "war" O/P refers to wasn't sdo much a war as a social upheavel and it ended a long time ago. Its only current reality is in his head and those of similiar minded men who haven't been able to accept the outcome. Most of these are from the generation in which the upheaval occurred, so they were raised to expect a set of privileges and gender roles that then did not materialize, and some of them are still unable to deal with it. It's a minority of that generation overall, but they are disporportionately represented among western men living in asia . And they are obsessively vocal about it...unfortunately, on the ladies forum of all places.

As most of the other ladies posting have said -- it's your problem, not ours.

IMHO, it's not a problem with the ladies, and it's not a problem with the men. It's an issue with modern western society which has changed due mainly to economics. A lot of men blame western women for not being what they are expecting, but everyone in the society is to "blame" for allowing their society to change. The majority have spoken, and if you don't like what modern western society has become, you get out and find someplace more suitable to you. I decided long ago that I prefer Asian countries and Asian cultures to any Western country/culture and then made my move here and plan to remain here for the rest of my life. I don't particularly care for the bashing of Western women that goes on because I think it is totally misplaced. If someone wants to do some bashing, they should bash Western society as a whole.

Still a majority of Western men gladly accept Western society and it's women in their new roles. Some who do not have moved to Asia and find a bountiful supply of women here that are more to their liking. I say everyone should be happy and shouldn't bash another for their choices. However I do think discussing and debating issues related to this can be interesting and entertaining. Provided people don't cross the line and start bashing each other for their personal choices I see discussions of such as being healthy and informative.

[Khutan]

What has recently intrigued me is the way the farang husbands who live nearby try to prevent their wives from spending any time with me. The farang men seem to be afraid that their Thai ladies will be contaminated by seeing how I am treated by my husband, and will compare it to how they are treated and expect better.

That is something in your relationship, and there are certain things that are important to some people, and not important to others. Some things that one person does not mind dong that makes their partner feel good.

I am not afraid to let my wife meet any western woman or couple, in fact I welcome it. We just don't see too many in our part of Bangkok.

Like my husband carries out the garbage; a simple little thing routinely done by most American men, but no farang husband with a Thai wife around here does that. In fact, the other men were horrified to learn about it, and urged my husband to not let their wives know.

Neither my wife nor I do that or many, if any domestic chores, that is what the maid is paid for.

So I agree with the previous posters who have said that any war is all in the minds of the Western men who want a doormat and can't deal with an actual woman. There are a good many farangs married to Thai women who do treat their wives well, as I can tell by the posters here. I just haven't met them where I live.

I sort of agree with you and I also strongly disagree. I have remarked to my wife with some shock the way some men treat their wives, regardless of race and I wonder why in fact they bothered to get married. So I agree with you on that point. It seems if they wanted a dog or a doormat they chsould have bought one rather than marry someone and eventually make their lief miserable.

However;

There are many western women out there who seem to have a "Chip on their shoulder" and its a really sad state of affairs. As an example I might find myself in a pub or the like and when you are sitting around waiting for friends etc, you see other western people, give them a nod or a smile and probably about 60% of the time have a conversation. More often than not they are tourists or new to the country and are greatful for advice.

This is the case with men. Women give me some of the strangest looks and even I have been given insulting remarks, when all I have been trying to do is be polite, as I was brought up to be. Not having any motive other than conversation and maybe sharing some of my limited wisdom, the scenario can become distressing.

So now, I never talk to western women unless they talk to me first, I never make a facial gesture, even a smile unless they do so first, and even though I have seen them have trouble with Maps and getting directions from Thai's I don't bother to give assistance, unless there is a male with them.

A recent example I was was at the front of my work (while I was having a smoke) and these two ladies were "negotiating" with a Tuk-Tuk Driver for he price of 250 B to take them from just near Ari BTS to Pantip Plaza. Anyone who knows the area will know its a short train ride to Ratchaterri BTS and about a 10 minute walk. I decided that it was not my story and more than likley my opinion was not welcome.

Ask yourself this, how many times if you see a male sitting alone in a pub (no I don't mean a bar) and you give them a polite greeting would you expect to be told to get lost of given a similar insult.

Now as far as most western women, unless I know them as a friend or from work, then I do not look at them, and I do not talk to them.

So not a war, just total indifference.

[fruittbatt]

The "war" O/P refers to wasn't sdo much a war as a social upheavel and it ended a long time ago. Its only current reality is in his head and those of similiar minded men who haven't been able to accept the outcome. Most of these are from the generation in which the upheaval occurred, so they were raised to expect a set of privileges and gender roles that then did not materialize, and some of them are still unable to deal with it. It's a minority of that generation overall, but they are disporportionately represented among western men living in asia . And they are obsessively vocal about it...unfortunately, on the ladies forum of all places.

Sheryl this is an excellent summary of the situation as I see it, too.

As most of the other ladies posting have said -- it's your problem, not ours.

IMHO, it's not a problem with the ladies, and it's not a problem with the men. It's an issue with modern western society which has changed due mainly to economics. A lot of men blame western women for not being what they are expecting, but everyone in the society is to "blame" for allowing their society to change. The majority have spoken, and if you don't like what modern western society has become, you get out and find someplace more suitable to you. I decided long ago that I prefer Asian countries and Asian cultures to any Western country/culture and then made my move here and plan to remain here for the rest of my life. I don't particularly care for the bashing of Western women that goes on because I think it is totally misplaced. If someone wants to do some bashing, they should bash Western society as a whole.

Still a majority of Western men gladly accept Western society and it's women in their new roles. Some who do not have moved to Asia and find a bountiful supply of women here that are more to their liking. I say everyone should be happy and shouldn't bash another for their choices. However I do think discussing and debating issues related to this can be interesting and entertaining. Provided people don't cross the line and start bashing each other for their personal choices I see discussions of such as being healthy and informative.

Soju, I think you are spot on when you point out that a number of farang men who move to Asia do so because they carry bitter baggage from their former lives- for the reasons Sheryl has stated.

It is not social change which is "to blame" here, but rather the unwillingness of some men to ADAPT to changes that makes them seek a place where they are not required to treat women in the same way as in the West.

To many Western women this retreat from "reality" seems like a grossly childish cop-out, and one which is doomed to fail, as Asian women are not generally as demure, subservient, and compliant as some farang men imagine.

We see the outrage and hate surface again and again on TV every time some gronk gets ripped off by the "object" of his affections. Suddenly the Thai women who have been depicted as caring and sooo unlike their western counterparts are slammed for their "trickery" and much worse besides. Or the "rip-off" is explained in schizoid terms: Thai women are either madonnas or "bar-girls". If they are the latter, then they are said to be totally untrustworthy, lazy, unfaithful, money-grubbing etc.

It is interesting that when the "punter" is blamed by other men on TV for the "rip-off", the advice is usually to the effect that the "punter" was "naive" and so deserved all he got. What is really interesting is that the underlying attitudes of seeing women (farang and Thai) as objects of sexual pleasure to be indulged, purchased, dominated, infantilised, domestic servants, are rarely questioned or suggested as reasons for the "rip-off" and end of the relationship.

You can take the baggage out of the country, but (unless we're talking Suvannaphum ), the whole sad kaboodle is still there in your new country, waiting for you.

I do not think the majority of farang men in Thailand fits the above profile. I keep hearing so many positive reports from men who are happily partnered with Thai women they respect and love. However, the hard-core minority of dinosaurs still gronks on relentlessly ...and so we have to have this discussion yet again...

[Wolfie]

I've been reluctant to enter into this discussion, but i will drop my 2 satang into the fray...

I've had similar experiences to Khutan in the respect i have had more 'negative vibes' from western women than any one else. Sometimes it feels like merely saying "Hello" or asking if someones alright or needs help gets translated via the babble fish in their ears to "Do you wanna shag?" (or similar) resulting in being told to p1ss off, get lost or simply ignored and turning their backs on me. Maybe its just me!

Thats not to say it happens all the time, but it does seem to happen more often than not. So, as with Khutan, i don't tend to get involved very often these days, preferring to walk on by without the slightest attempt at making contact, even when they look like they could do with a bit of assistance, its just not worth the risk. Its a shame, my grandparents really hammered into me that "Manners maketh man" so not acting like a gentleman really goes against the grain.

As with the fat smelly farang stereotype we all love to hate, its probably just a few 'rotten apples' spoiling it for everyone else.

Hey at least if you look on the plus side, back in blighty if you smiled and said hello to a bloke he would probably punch you, out here doing that results in a friendly conversation and a beer or two.

[Boo]

Wolfie & Khutan, very interetsing observations but what exactly does any of that have to do with the so called perceived war that the op thinks is going on between men & women?

So some western women don't want to talk to you? I didn't realise it was a requirement to talk to every strange man who approached me.

I don't smile at complete strangers in my home country & doubt you do too, so why has being in LOS got to change that?

As for offering help, well it goes both ways in fact. I too have made eye contact with western men I see needing help only too be ignored, I have also been insulted & abused for being white & a women. (quite often on this forum). I refuse to get blinkered though so will continue to try & keep an open mind & continue to offer help.

So not a war, just total indifference.

So why bother trying?

[fruittbatt]

As a happy little soul, I usually take my cue from the Thais and smile at anyone who makes eye contact. I have noticed that certain farang men avoid eye contact altogether. This action confirms my view that these few really do have a big problem with farang women.

Whenever a farang man does smile back or speak or hold open a door, I am grateful and will show it. I also speak with anyone sharing an elevator or a songthaew. Most farangs are pleased to make contact.

The two nastiest people I have encountered are an old German woman and a Japanese American who freaks out every time I address her or her Australian husband! I think there are insecure farangs of both genders. Such a waste of energy!

[Soju]

Wolfie & Khutan, very interetsing observations but what exactly does any of that have to do with the so called perceived war that the op thinks is going on between men & women?

So some western women don't want to talk to you? I didn't realise it was a requirement to talk to every strange man who approached me.

I don't smile at complete strangers in my home country & doubt you do too, so why has being in LOS got to change that?

As for offering help, well it goes both ways in fact. I too have made eye contact with western men I see needing help only too be ignored, I have also been insulted & abused for being white & a women. (quite often on this forum). I refuse to get blinkered though so will continue to try & keep an open mind & continue to offer help.

So not a war, just total indifference.

So why bother trying?

My own experience living in Asia is that in general Farangs tend to greet each other with a nod and a smile, and maybe a friendly "hello" or something. In a place like BKK where Farangs are numerous, it doesn't happen as much, but elsewhere I find it to be the norm rather than the exception. Back home it would be very rare for people to greet everyone they met in that manner, and you'd have every right to not want to respond, especially if you thought they might be a pervert or some strange character.

I've noticed some Farangs of both sexes don't seem to respond to the "Farang Handshake" in Asia. Maybe because they're newbies, or just tourists. With regards to more women ignoring the Farang handshake than men, I chalk it up more to just that they don't want to give the wrong impression - that maybe the guy is hitting on her and she responds like she would back home by ignoring her.

So anyways, I don't read a whole lot into it. I'm usually friendly with other Farang guys, but like Wolife and Khutan, tend to shy away from making the first gesture towards a Farang gal, but certainly will respond if she goes first. However, if I'm together with my wife I usually do avoid eye contact with Farang women merely to avoid giving the impression to my wife that I'm flirting or otherwise interested in the woman.

[eddy-ham]

Why is it that in many posts regarding the man V women it seems to be that all the scourne is placed at the mans feet.

In reality it takes 2 to make a relationship work, there is not just one party that is hard done by.

Nobody can place a price on being there watching your children grow up............

[Wolfie]

Wolfie & Khutan, very interetsing observations but what exactly does any of that have to do with the so called perceived war that the op thinks is going on between men & women?

I think its got everything to do with the OP's original point, this perceived war is exactly that, perceived. Its not real, its a reaction to the events that have shaped his attitude.

I was simply offering my thoughts to this and sharing my experiences as to why i can understand the OP's point about a perceived war (even if i don't agree with him)

I hope you don't think me rude for sharing my thoughts on this subject.

So some western women don't want to talk to you? I didn't realise it was a requirement to talk to every strange man who approached me.

Nope not a requirement, but i was always taught if someone says hello to you, its impolite to tell them to 'p1ss off', 'get lost' or to just turn your back on them. You don't want to talk to every person that comes up to you, thats perfectly fine but 'rejecting' them in a polite manner is a much nicer thing to do and generally makes the world a nicer place.

"Manners maketh man" - one of the most influential phrases i was ever taught.

I don't smile at complete strangers in my home country & doubt you do too, so why has being in LOS got to change that?

Thailand its common to see people smiling at you, i guess a bit of that 'Thai thing' has rubbed off on me. I like the "Smile" attitude, it makes things seem more warm and friendly, not like the cold streets of blighty where smiling at someone is likely to result in abuse.

Maybe we should all walk around with our eyes downcast and not make contact/smile at anyone except those we already have an established friendship with???

As for offering help, well it goes both ways in fact. I too have made eye contact with western men I see needing help only too be ignored, I have also been insulted & abused for being white & a women. (quite often on this forum). I refuse to get blinkered though so will continue to try & keep an open mind & continue to offer help.

I think, as a lady, your less likely to get insulted/ignored by males than the other way around, sorry if you don't agree with that. (Ignoring the forum, i class that as a different beast, I'm talking face-to-face dealings here.. i know you get a rough ride on the forums)

As i stated in my earlier post, in my experience at least, offering help to a female who appears to be in a position to benefit from help (looks lost, having a 'situation' with a tuk tuk driver/shopkeeper, struggling to communicate in Thai... to give you some examples) seems to get completely misinterpreted into some sinister alteria motive which results in general rudeness.

Maybe that reaction is down to having to deal with pricks and idiots more regularly than not, again i do think thats down to the 'rotten apples' analogy and whilst i don't blame ladies for harboring that attitude i do feel its one of societies greatest failings. One more reason, i guess, why this perceived war is perceived by some.

I just class it as (generally) people have a lot less manners these days than the days of my childhood. For better for worse, its a sad, sorry fact. In my humble opinion its not a war of man vs woman, its a mindset that being rude to others is an acceptable way forward.

A shame, a crying shame.

[Boo]

I agree with that wolfie, it is a shame & your right, it is perceived only.

My point was that there are rude people everywhere. Being in Thailand doesn't change that. Plenty of rude thai women & men too, how about an indian tailor grabbing you to go into their shop. Thats lack of manners. It's not only white women but we seem to be the ones who come under so much fire & that just becuase the person being rude is a western women in thailand, then we are all somehow tarred with the same brush or that we must bend over backwards to be nice to people we don't know, have no intersting in knowing & may think is being intrusive/creepy etc.

Whatever the reason for the rebuke, it is the individuals choice & their reason ALONE for doing it.

[Wolfie]

It's not only white women but we seem to be the ones who come under so much fire & that just becuase the person being rude is a western women in thailand, then we are all somehow tarred with the same brush or that we must bend over backwards to be nice to people we don't know, have no intersting in knowing & may think is being intrusive/creepy etc.

I, for one, feel the same... it feels (sometimes) that we males are 'tarred with the same brush' when we face situations like the ones i have described. Its a horrible situation to be branded a "Male chauvinistic pig" or a "Bitter western woman hater" just because the last male she met was one.

Swings and roundabouts i guess

[Boo]

I dont' think there will ever be a solution

[bkkmadness]

I have noticed that certain farang men avoid eye contact altogether. This action confirms my view that these few really do have a big problem with farang women.

Just because a farang guy avoids eye contact with you, it doesn't mean they have a big problem with farang women, and to think that way seems a little over sensitive to me. Or am I missing something here?

[Dakhar]

Seems to me folks have not mentioned the largest baby sitting corporation in the world.

The Television. Lets think about the soap's. For some reason, the women are all beautiful, unemployed and rich. They also are deviant and manipulative. Err, and do I dare ask who gives them these life styles... some rich husband, boy-friend, lover, Mommy & Daddy, (Daddy gave Mommy the life style) etc etc.

So yes, I can see why some attitudes of men being subserviant to women can be developed. The soaps are the same around the globe.

I don't put the entire blame on the Soaps, but I will also say that to me Farang women and Thai women are essentially the same. There is no "Free Pass." Just because you married a Thai, does not make life any easier/better. No, she may not need the most expensive lip stick, but her mothers, brother wife has a sick buffalo & for some reason it is the Farangs problem. It all equals out.

Secondly for the farang ladies that think that men marry Asian women because asians are more subserviant.... You can rest assured, your Asian sisters are the same, just a little shorter.

Fortunatley at my house, the maid does the domestic chores. But that comes with a whole set of issues. Lets say the man works, and the woman does not.... but she is used to having a maid do all the house hold chores. Now if the man expects the woman to do those chores while he is off to work.... for some reason the logic does not compute and the woman finds house work to be a demeaning activity, and refuses to do it or resents doing it.

So then to appease her rath you get a maid, so now, she has more of an oppertunity to watch more soaps.

So the guy goes to work, so she does not have too... I am sure this same guy is wondering who is he going to hire to do his job so he can go fishing.

Kind of makes a person wonder why people get married in the first place.

I like the second or third post when the poster said....

"It all started with Adam......."

[Khutan]

....I don't smile at complete strangers in my home country & doubt you do too, so why has being in LOS got to change that?

Its to do with a shared experience or a shared difficulty and here in Thailand, they are different than where we come from. Therefore it can be helpful and comforting to share an experience or difficulty with someone who looks at the situation through the same eyes.

Its also to do with being polite to what amounts to being a "Fellow Kinsman" rather than just giving no acknowledgement of their existance.

Maybe that is why there is a Thai community in other parts of the world, total strangers who may never have met, but still have the same culture and experience, but away from their (Cultural) home. I know my wife just about fell over Thai people when she met them in Australia, from all sorts of backgrounds, and all they wanted to do was talk.

.... So why bother trying?

Thats my point - I have stopped trying for women, unless they have a male with them.

[Boo]

Its to do with a shared experience or a shared difficulty and here in Thailand, they are different than where we come from.

And there is the problem. Assuming that people feel the same as you when many don't, creates the problem of perceived slights when in reality you may be (to strangers) coming on over friendly or unusual to what they are used to. But then again, they may just be rude. Thats their perogative & as I said, rude is everywhere.

As for thai community, most we know don't mix with other thais very often. Apart from the people they are forced to work with (if working in resteraunt) they have other friends from other countries & don't involve themselves in the temple lifestyle. Again, different people with different wants or expectations & different perception. Not all thais are sociable or want other thais around all the time.

[bkkmadness]

It's not only white women but we seem to be the ones who come under so much fire & that just becuase the person being rude is a western women in thailand, then we are all somehow tarred with the same brush or that we must bend over backwards to be nice to people we don't know, have no intersting in knowing & may think is being intrusive/creepy etc.

I, for one, feel the same... it feels (sometimes) that we males are 'tarred with the same brush' when we face situations like the ones i have described. Its a horrible situation to be branded a "Male chauvinistic pig" or a "Bitter western woman hater" just because the last male she met was one.

Been chatting with Kat?

[LaReina]

Allow me digress from the topic and make a few comments.

There are many western women out there who seem to have a "Chip on their shoulder" and its a really sad state of affairs. As an example I might find myself in a pub or the like and when you are sitting around waiting for friends etc, you see other western people, give them a nod or a smile and probably about 60% of the time have a conversation. More often than not they are tourists or new to the country and are greatful for advice.

You are 100% correct. And that is a bloody good question. But if it is any consolation, I am a female and I agree with you.

I don't smile at complete strangers in my home country & doubt you do too, so why has being in LOS got to change that?

Boo, I smile at complete strangers in my home country. I carry on conversations with complete strangers while standing at a check outline. There is an un-written belief that when you encounter a non native person in a foreign country, that you just acknowledge them. But then again, maybe it is a cultural thing.

[Boo]

We are different people with different ideas. Just because you speak to complete strangers, doesn't mean that I will.

My personality means I like to keep myself to myself. You are obviosly more outgoing. Good for you & good for me. It's these differences that make the world an intersting place.

But FYI, I also talk to the check out lady or man at the supermarket but wouldn't approach a stranger in a bar or in the street. Different senarios IMO as I am in my comfort zone at the supermarket checkout & not in a bar.

Also this "unwritten belief" is only the belief of people who belive it I made & still have many friend in LOS but when I first moved there was quite wary of jumping into friendships with people just because they were farang. It worked nicely for me, I have a strong goup of farang & thai friend who even after 2 years of living outside of LOS still visit, call, email & care about me & vise versa.

Edited October 12, 2006 by Boo

[bkkmadness]

Theres a lot of farang in my appartment block here, but I never bother to start a converstion with one just because they are non natives like myself, that's just not big enough a connection for me to warrant talking to someone.

Of course this is Bangkok where farangs are common, out in the sticks, maybe I would make the effort more.

Quite a few of them do start talking to me though, and I know for precisely that reason and then I don't mind a chat, but overall I wouldn't go out of my way for it.

Edited October 12, 2006 by bkkmadness

[Donz]

Well I always say hi to people in my apartment block. Most say Hi back some dont but its probaly the smile (people say sleazy) that I have. But I cant help it I smile 24/7 as thats how my lips are shaped

[fruittbatt]

I have noticed that certain farang men avoid eye contact altogether. This action confirms my view that these few really do have a big problem with farang women.

Just because a farang guy avoids eye contact with you, it doesn't mean they have a big problem with farang women, and to think that way seems a little over sensitive to me. Or am I missing something here?

OK when the same guys consistently avoid any type of acknowledgement even when we eat at the same place, share the same elevator, I open doors for the old curmudgeons because they are decrepit or carrying something heavy, speak with their Thai partners...and they STILL ignore me...I think it is a fair assumption. I am just so glad they are a minority or I would be checking to see whether I still exist!

Edited October 12, 2006 by fruittbatt

[bkkmadness]

Just because a farang guy avoids eye contact with you, it doesn't mean they have a big problem with farang women, and to think that way seems a little over sensitive to me. Or am I missing something here?

Maybe you don't.

[fruittbatt]

Just because a farang guy avoids eye contact with you, it doesn't mean they have a big problem with farang women, and to think that way seems a little over sensitive to me. Or am I missing something here?

Maybe you don't.

ah! an existentialist and some censorship: how refreshing!

Edited October 12, 2006 by fruittbatt