Moving & Working In Germany

[hUsh]

I am thinking of moving to Germany to work and live there with my boyfriend. Here’s my situation and I would like to ask for some advice/inputs based on my background and also I would like to express some of my concerns.

I’ve been in this relationship for a year now and my boyfriend (German) and I decided that we should do something about the long distance relationship. So I will take the step in moving.

Background: I am currently working in sales and marketing for electronic-support company and living in Thailand. My previous work experience includes working for Japanese and Thai companies. I hold a Bachelors Degree in Business from Canada with some graduate courses in business too. I am fluent in English; speak Thai & Japanese (not sure if that would be helpful/useful in Germany) and willing to learn German.

I would like to know what my chances of getting a job in Munich are. My bf said he’ll help me with some people he knows, but I also want to know how difficult/easy it would be. I do not want to depend on him when I move there so would like to work possibly in the same field -sales&marketing and/or business development. Separately, I am concern whether Munich is a friendly/accepting city to Asians. While I have a lot of international friends –some Europeans-, I have never been to Europe.

I will visit Germany next year as a start...

I would appreciate advices and or shared experiences similar to mine…

[Naam]

"I would like to know what my chances of getting a job in Munich are. My bf said he’ll help me with some people he knows, but I also want to know how difficult/easy it would be. I do not want to depend on him when I move there so would like to work possibly in the same field -sales&marketing and/or business development. Separately, I am concern whether Munich is a friendly/accepting city to Asians."

- getting a job is not the real problem but obtaining residence and work permit is. i don't see a possibility how your boyfriend would be able to assist you in this respect (assuming you are a male).

- Munich is (has been for decades) a cosmopolitan city and i see no problems for you living there.

Edited October 10, 2006 by Dr. Naam

[hUsh]

- getting a job is not the real problem but obtaining residence and work permit is. i don't see a possibility how your boyfriend would be able to assist you in this respect (assuming you are a male).

Is getting a work permit there as hard (or harder) as it is in TH?

FYI, female here

Thanks Dr. Naam

[Rajah]

Work permit is easy, if you are married to a German. You have to fill in a form, leave it with agency of labour and you have a lifelong work permit (not so strict like Thailand).

If you are married to a German you can stay for three years in Germany. After that you can get an extension (lifelong) without leaving the country. Even if you get divorced after three years, you won't have to leave.

Job opportunities: there are more than 4 million people in Germany without job, i.e. Germany doesn't wait for you. If you can't speak German, you can't get a job for sure. You need to study the language first.

I am not really sure, if you can work in your business (sales and marketing). I know about Thai ladies with universtity degrees (e.g. lawyers) who did cleaning jobs or helped out in Thai restaurants.

Germany is a wonderful country with lots of foreigners, also Asians. So you don't have to worry about that. But it will be difficult for you to find a job here, I tell you that. Don't expect too much, otherwise you will be disappointed. But you also shouldn't worry that much. Come to Munich, visit your boyfriend, take a close look at the city and the country and make up your mind.

Chok dee!

[worldfun]

hush,

We're in similar situation to you & your bf being that I'm working in Munich & living with thai wife since now some 6months.

Work permit/visa is not the main problem, but the language barrier & high unemployment - say some 8% for munich will be

I'm afraid I have to agree with the other poster that Germany(even international Munich) is very much a german speaking country & it'll be very tough to get a good job quickly withour good german speaking skills.

However your multi language skills should help you as should your boyfriends contacts.

But marketing is a popular field & there's plenty of native germans with fluent english out there hunting for the same jobs as you.

Of course you should not give up, but really need to focus on your asian skills such as japanese language although there'll be other native japanese here you'll need to compete with as well...

Most thais working your field in Munich would be brough up here or perhaps having studied in Germany.

Perhaps start with intensive language course & after 6 months you'd stand a much better chance at the marketing job market. In the mean time you could try applying at some thai businesses, restaurants, schools etc.

So don't be scared to get a taste of life here by applying for 3 months schengen tourist/visitor visa.

Feel free to PM me for further Munich/Thai related info & I could potentially link you up with my thai wife(also marketing degree).

[Naam]

- getting a job is not the real problem but obtaining residence and work permit is. i don't see a possibility how your boyfriend would be able to assist you in this respect (assuming you are a male).

Is getting a work permit there as hard (or harder) as it is in TH?

FYI, female here

Thanks Dr. Naam

that you are a lady changes the situation quite a bit "hUsh". i was not sure about this . however, the advice of "rajah" concerning a "lifelong work permit when married to a german" is not correct and neither does one file a relevant application with the "agency of labour" (Arbeitsamt). the work permit is issued by the same authority that issues the residence permit and under the present circumstances (high unemployment) i see your only chance to obtain both permits by marrying your boyfriend.

applying for a 3-months visitor visa should not be a big problem but even in this case the assistance of your boyfriend ("my fiancée would like to visit Germany...bla-bla") would facilitate the procedure. to get a taste of Germany a three months stay would be indeed advisable.

[busygirl]

I was in a similar situation as you. I am a Chinese-American who at first had a long distance relationship with my German boyfriend. I met him when he was on vacation in the States. For over a year we talked on msn and on the phone and made the occasional visit which seemed to be over in no time. Then I entered graduate school and decided to do my exchange in Germany but also to spend the summer there beforehand for a total of 7 months. In that way I would be able to see him everyday.

For that summer I studied German intensively and later part-time during my exchange studies. What I know is that even if I had studied German for a year intensively I wouldn’t be proficient enough to undertake a business role there. When someone has to write reports, read reports, make presentations and argue points in a clear and persuasive manner someone cannot get to this high level with 1 year of German studies. I would think to be at this level it may take 2 or 3 years of intensive study in Germany not elsewhere as one needs to be surrounded by the language.

The 7 months I stayed in Germany was definitely important as I got to know him and his culture more. But I also knew that I didn’t want to get married right away and work in a menial job especially with my educational background. I was 25 at that time and knew him only in a long distance relationship for a year with a few visits here and there. As you know having a long distance relationship means that you are not seeing the whole picture of who he is and for that matter, he’s not seeing the whole picture of who you are. You never get that until you spend a lot of time together in the same place.

Now my boyfriend is living with me here in the States after he asked for a transfer by his company. In the year and half we have been living together I have been able to understand him a lot more, his good points and his flaws. By staying in the States I am not financially dependent (or culturally) on him since I have a good career and I know if this relationship ends at some point I haven’t sacrificed my career and goals. I would have been depressed sooner or later in Germany since I know I wouldn’t have been able to get a real career. If I had married him to stay there and later the marriage ended I would be completely devastated!!! For him, it wasn’t a sacrifice to come to the States since he is great at English and was able to continue his career here.

In terms of getting a work permit for Germany I have heard that it is very difficult if not impossible since the unemployment rate is high, a strong command of German is necessary for business jobs and in your field (marketing) many Germans are more than capable of doing this work (especially since a very strong understanding of culture plays an important role in marketing). Even if you get married to stay there these issues would still make it difficult to secure a job. I’m not sure if your boyfriend’s contacts would help you get a job if you get married but then what happens if the marriage fails? .That’s a lot of dependency…

The fact that you have Japanese may help in the job market but that also depends on how proficient you are with this language. It’s my understanding that normally firms looking for Japanese language skills are seeking those who have it as their mother language (or very close to it) due to the complexity of the language and the cultural connotations involved that Japanese want to do business with other Japanese. I have often seen this in the States and when I asked some Japanese businesspersons that was the response I got.

I think the best scenario is for your boyfriend to be transferred to Thailand. I’m not sure if this is feasible but it is worth the try. Living together in Thailand will allow you to continue and develop your career and let you get to know him better before you move to a bigger step. I would not be able to take the risk of getting married to someone I have known mainly in a long distance relationship without trying on the goods for a longer period of time if you know what I mean. It definitely takes a long time to really get to know someone’s inner character and that’s even harder at a distance. As you know, long distance relationships are difficult but in the end, both of you have to make the decision of what to do. Good luck and keep us all posted.

[Nongwahyay]

The simple answer is that, UNLESS YOU ARE MARRIED to an EU national (he does not have to be German - I am British, living in Berlin with my thai wife), you have no chance WHATSOEVER of obtaining a residence permit for Germany. On the invitation of your boyfriend you would be granted a 3-month visa. You would, however, be absolutely forbidden to work in any form during your stay here. The visa can also NOT BE EXTENDED. You will DEFINITELY be required to leave the country after 3 months. Your boyfriend will not be able to help you in any way in altering these circumstances.

As other TV members have also written, an inability to speak German will almost certainly exclude you from the job market........at least in the field of work, to which you are accustomed.

[worldfun]

Good point s from all. I'm afraid thats the hard facts explained, so unless willing to sacrifice your career for the moment or somehow able to get past the bad odds it seems you should really try to go for the living in Thailand/Philippines option or delay the living together scenario.

Best of luck

[hUsh]

@Busygirl: thank you for sharing your experience...

and for all the others-- thanks for your replies...

I guess it would be really hard for me to get a job there (which I already knew), but my bf insist on him helping me get a job... On the other hand, he has also applied to a company in Malaysia and may have a chance of getting the job. If he does get the job, then i will just move to Malaysia.

As of moving to Germany, a friend recommend that I go there as a student as a start. So I have been checking out universities that offer graduate courses and at the same time I would like to study German. I understand that the tuition fee in Germany (based on my research) is about 500 Euro per semester which is cheap compared to US, Can and Aus. Anyone has insights on this?

Although I would like to go to a better business school, I will take my chances in enrolling in Munich for some courses if not the whole program. Any advises on other unis that I can check out?

Moreover, if I study in Germany--would there be any chances of getting a part time job as a student? As I will be spending my savings on uni fees and other living expenses...

I would appreciate comments/suggestios in studying in Germany..

The simple answer is that, UNLESS YOU ARE MARRIED to an EU national

I see this a lot-- as much as I love my bf, I would like to know him more and not rush into getting married yet.. will see...

[busygirl]

Hush,

I'm not sure of the 500 Euro per semester master level program/courses. If you were to study through a program then make sure that it's a reputable one that employers recognize. To give you some insight I did my exchange at WHU Otto Beisheim School of Management (thru Kellogg) and I know that the full program is 35,000 Euros with books included. Other decent schools may charge around 15,000 to 20,000 Euros for their programs—1 yr to 16 months (MBA and non-MBA business programs)--don't know if all have English instruction but there is Munich Bus. School that does. I would advise you to go for a good program rather than a cheap one that may not be worth your time and effort in the long run. If you only take courses another question I have is that can these credits be transferred to other programs in Germany or abroad if you plan to do a full program elsewhere? It’s a bit difficult to understand that there are master level programs for 500 Euro per semester unless they are not really reputable/recognized or may be this is per course then plus other fees? Or they are subsidized by the government if one is German—I’m not sure. Of course, if you're only thinking about studying German than that's a different matter entirely. As far as I know full-time students can work 90 days a year or 180 half-days a year—okay for a part-time job.

Mayasia sounds like an idea if you too can find work there. If not, it's not that far from Bangkok and what I realize the flights are reasonable too.

You mentioned that you have a business degree from Canada. Do you have any status there? Or would that degree and your experience help you qualify for residency/working status? In my line of work we are often sending management consultants to Calgary, Alberta, Canada where there is a major oil boom and many other sectors/industries are booming along with it. They are in short supply of all skilled workers and are actively seeking workers from abroad (and not keeping up). The pay there is insane as they cannot meet demand. I wonder if your boyfriend could work in one of the skilled sectors and you finding work related to your background/or in a similar area. I have heard they are training people for these skilled jobs even if they do not have the required education. This goes to show how much employers are willing to attract new workers. The standard of living and the pay would definitely be much better than that of Malaysia and with better prospects for the future.

Edited October 31, 2006 by busygirl

[Naam]

"I'm not sure of the 500 Euro per semester master level program/courses. If you were to study through a program then make sure that it's a reputable one that employers recognize."

*****

i (not so) humbly beg to differ "busygirl". Germany is not the Greatest Nation on Earth :~) where it matters which school, college or university education you passed as far as employment is concerned.

what you have mentioned are private entities which charge unjustified fancy fees but are not really recognized by german employers and especially not by the relevant ministries of education (each german federal state has its own). in many cases an MBA from these private schools cannot be transferred into the equivalent german degree, carrying which is strictly governed by laws.

moreover, only a VERY tiny majority is attending these "schools". the reason is that most of the attendants do not qualify for admission into regular universities which are subsidized (and therefore not expensive) but have stringent conditions for admission. perhaps you would like to check google, keyword "numerus clausus". the problem with german universities (we have no colleges!) is that there are too many applicants and even those who possess the basic qualifications (Abitur) cannot select freely anymore the subject they would like to study. "numerus clausus" requires certain minimum grades (the passing grades in Abitur) to grant the applicant a free choice what subject to select. those who do not have the required grades are left to study "breadless arts" such as anthropology, sociology , and a bunch of others.

for a foreigner the admission to a german university is by far much easier as there are no proper yardsticks to measure the foreign education (exceptions prove the rule!).

Edited October 31, 2006 by Dr. Naam

[giruz]

Hi,

Same situation here. I'm Italian, she is Thai..we currently live in Australia but next year we will leave.

First problem: WORK

Except for UK, Ireland and maybe Holland and Belgium there are no possibilities for you (and for your bf) if you don't speak the local language (i.e. Italian in Italy, German in Germany and so on).

SECOND PROBLEM: IMO, the only practical way is to go in EU is to move in UK.

NOTE: I don't know and I never heard about anyone who obtained a visa in this way.

In theory, your bf as EA national can go in UK. Then, settle over there and after a year (not sure if it is only ONE) ask for a permanent residency (settlement visa).

Then after, he can sponsor you using his settlement visa as fiancee (you will have to marry him within six months..i think) or as de-facto partner (in this case you need to live together 2yrs before).

Holland, belgium and UK have defacto.

Moreover, most of the countries have really tight restrictions on fiancee visa.

(FYI Ireland doesn't have fiancee visa)

...

Or you can marry him and get a visa immediately....and move anywhere in EU.

....

BUT...because you mentioned Canada... well...canada is pretty relaxed with immigration. I would check if you can apply over there for a residency PR with partner (or without)...and I would remind to your bf that he can go to canada using his working holiday (if is younger than 30yo).

In my case after with my gf we reach the minimun points and we will qualify for canada...just give it a try

bye

g.

[Rajah]

... a "lifelong work permit when married to a german" is not correct and neither does one file a relevant application with the "agency of labour" (Arbeitsamt).

Did that change? I didn't know. "Arbeitsamt" issued my wife a lifelong workpermit. It's a while ago, though.

Edited November 7, 2006 by Rajah