UK expats for EU exit

[buddy]

Seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the June 23rd IN/OUT EU referendum and people want to know the facts.

Here are some facts to consider,

You are not voting to leave the European Economic Area (EEA) or the World Trade Organisation (WTO) meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged when we leave.

Britain's trade with the EU is dwindling year on year and accounts for approximately 14% of our trade, however Britain's trade with the rest of the world is increasing year on year so the EU needs Britain's trade more than Britain needs the EU, for example when Britain leaves the might of the German car industry will be knocking on herr Merkels door looking for a favourable trade deal with Britain.

You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change when we leave.

You are not voting to leave the United Nations, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.

You are not voting to leave Europe, Europe is a continent not a political Union!

You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the EU so your human rights are still guaranteed when we leave.

You are not voting against workers rights. The UK had plenty of workers rights before the EU even existed and these will remain, in fact unlike the UK the EU has no minimum wage so workers are open to exploitation of slave wages by being in the EU.

Just to dispel a few myths,

1. Paid holiday leave - EU 4 weeks.... UK 5.6 weeks.

2. Maternity leave - EU 14 weeks...UK 52 weeks.

3. Maternity pay - EU no minimum pay.... UK 90% of your wages for 6 weeks then £140 for 33 weeks.

4. Equal pay - This was law in 1970 before the UK joined the EU.

5. Wages- The EU has no minimum wage unlike the UK and we have one of the highest minimum wages in the world

6. Discrimination- The UK had laws on sex (1975)and race (1965) discrimination long before the EU.

7. Health and Safety- We in the UK have some of the best health and safety at work and have since 1974...We all look in shock horror at working conditions and standards when on holiday in many EU countries.

You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global organised crime.

Contrary to the belief of some EU fearmongers recently on TV you are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members and this will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).

The UK economy will benefit to the tune of tens of £billions of pounds in the first year after we leave instead of being Billions being sent overseas to the corrupt EU and frittered away. our money can be spent to benefit British people who's hard work paid for the tax money in the first place.

Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU who then get our re-labelled money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.

Farming will not lose money because of EU funding (our own relabelled money) being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.

You are not voting leave to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into organisations like the NHS. Passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport that will not change. However Britain will take full control of its borders back and control who come in to Britain. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS for example, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the USA, Canada and Australia use will come into effect.

You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of a Ford Transit Van Factory from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford £80m!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty and the right to determine our own destiny. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union that the British people did not vote for. You are voting against an EU commission of unelected, elite men and women that nobody at all voted for and yet they make laws and decisions on our behalf without your consent. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives and unlike the EU you have the opportunity every 5 years to vote them out if you don't like them. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, big business and career politician's who need EU money to thrive!

Think about the future...and your family's future.

VOTE LEAVE!

[fcgprg]

Seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the June 23rd IN/OUT EU referendum and people want to know the facts.

Here are some facts to consider,

You are not voting to leave the European Economic Area (EEA) or the World Trade Organisation (WTO) meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged when we leave.

Britain's trade with the EU is dwindling year on year and accounts for approximately 14% of our trade, however Britain's trade with the rest of the world is increasing year on year so the EU needs Britain's trade more than Britain needs the EU, for example when Britain leaves the might of the German car industry will be knocking on herr Merkels door looking for a favourable trade deal with Britain.

You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change when we leave.

You are not voting to leave the United Nations, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.

You are not voting to leave Europe, Europe is a continent not a political Union!

You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the EU so your human rights are still guaranteed when we leave.

You are not voting against workers rights. The UK had plenty of workers rights before the EU even existed and these will remain, in fact unlike the UK the EU has no minimum wage so workers are open to exploitation of slave wages by being in the EU.

Just to dispel a few myths,

1. Paid holiday leave - EU 4 weeks.... UK 5.6 weeks.

2. Maternity leave - EU 14 weeks...UK 52 weeks.

3. Maternity pay - EU no minimum pay.... UK 90% of your wages for 6 weeks then £140 for 33 weeks.

4. Equal pay - This was law in 1970 before the UK joined the EU.

5. Wages- The EU has no minimum wage unlike the UK and we have one of the highest minimum wages in the world

6. Discrimination- The UK had laws on sex (1975)and race (1965) discrimination long before the EU.

7. Health and Safety- We in the UK have some of the best health and safety at work and have since 1974...We all look in shock horror at working conditions and standards when on holiday in many EU countries.

You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global organised crime.

Contrary to the belief of some EU fearmongers recently on TV you are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members and this will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).

The UK economy will benefit to the tune of tens of £billions of pounds in the first year after we leave instead of being Billions being sent overseas to the corrupt EU and frittered away. our money can be spent to benefit British people who's hard work paid for the tax money in the first place.

Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU who then get our re-labelled money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.

Farming will not lose money because of EU funding (our own relabelled money) being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.

You are not voting leave to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into organisations like the NHS. Passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport that will not change. However Britain will take full control of its borders back and control who come in to Britain. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS for example, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the USA, Canada and Australia use will come into effect.

You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of a Ford Transit Van Factory from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford £80m!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty and the right to determine our own destiny. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union that the British people did not vote for. You are voting against an EU commission of unelected, elite men and women that nobody at all voted for and yet they make laws and decisions on our behalf without your consent. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives and unlike the EU you have the opportunity every 5 years to vote them out if you don't like them. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, big business and career politician's who need EU money to thrive!

Think about the future...and your family's future.

VOTE LEAVE!

What is the amount that we would save per week if we were to leave the EU. I see you mention tens of billions of pounds?.

[MissAndry]

There's nothing bigoted in wanting your country back after years of abuse!

I agree with the first part of your comment. But please tell us: where have YOU been abused by the EU in recent years? And how did it negatively impact on YOUR PERSONAL life?

Found this, but personally don't care either way

How the EU hurts Britain. (written by Pete Giles)

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Hollands AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,

1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.

2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.

3/ You don't think it matters.

Edited June 11, 2016 by MissAndry

[Ace of Pop]

The last time Brits had a free vote, the best the clowns came up with was Boaty Boatface.Now those idiots can vote for English Folk to stay in.

[DUS]

You nor i or anybody else cannot predict the future when Britain leaves the EU but Britain will be free to make our own trade deals with the rest of the World and in Britain's interests, not the EU interests.

We can however see the past and what a bitter experience for Britain it has been being in the EU for the last 40 years, sovereignty and democracy stolen by function creep, lies and deceit, British industries decimated due to EU red tape, British workers jobs lost by transferring jobs to the EU, non and low skilled British workers wages kept low by wage compression due to mass open door EU immigration, strain in the NHS, housing, schools, food prices kept artificially high by the EU Common agricultural policy are just but a few.

"You nor I or anybody ...": I agree! But my gripe is that the Outers claim they can. "We will be better off." On the other side a comment like "We run the risk of a negative impact on trade and employment" is generally always brushed aside as scaremongering.

"Bitter experience... British industries decimated ... wage compression .... (etc)": You are assuming that all of this is due to the EU and only the EU? The things you mention have nothing to do with the British government and their own policies? Nothing to do with globalisation? Nothing to do with British companies making mistakes, failing to adjust to new market trends etc? Why are so many people within the NHS saying that without immigrants working in the NHS the NHS would have collapsed a long time ago?

Personally, i hate the bitterness in this "black and white" discussion about in/out. The EU isn´t perfect but neither is it the devil in disguise. Personally, I´d like to see the UK to stay in because I think it is better for Britain, better for the EU and better for the world. I also would not want to see my purchasing power in LoS being decimated by a plummeting pound if Britain leaves. But if Britain votes "out" it will certainly be "entertaining" us on this board for months and years to come and I am convinced that these stupid sounding comments from the out campaign that "It will all be fine! We´ll be better off! Nothing will change in terms of trade" etc bla bla bla will be proven utterly wrong.

But only time will tell. Maybe we will find out, maybe we won´t ....

Anyways, a nice weekend to everyone!

DUS

Edited June 11, 2016 by DUS

[nong38]

One of the big questions on the economic front asked particularly by the remain groups is "what would the out vote look like for the UK?" Its a fair question on the face of it but is it? You vote to stay as we are life carries on or you vote for a change, well what change?

The way I see it its like this, firstly if there is vote to leave nothing will change straight away, it would take time to "agree" to get out of the EU and a timeline, then treaties will have to be changed/emended or ended this would apparently take 2 years or more, then you would begin to see some small changes and more as time goes whether that would affect the likes of you and me is another question we may not in our remaining lifetime.

If we stay in, putting the boot on the foot, remain have not said what we would see, remember the EU have shelved a raft of new proposals until after the referendum, something that I am suspicious of, what do they not want us to know, what are they afraid of? The truth is that the rmain camp would find it difficult to tell us what remain actually means, apart from "things will carry on as usual". Well I have seen over the years how the EU has morfed from the EEC into the EU and I never saw that coming or wanted it although I am sure some did but chose not to alert the ordinary people about it.

Whilst we have our referendum the Greek situation carries on, its not sorted out is it, the IMF have said they will give no more support that leaves the EU to bail it out, are they making payment back or defaulting? No one is saying but its one of the smaller countries is giving the EU a big problem. The EU bent the rules to allow Greece, Italy and France to join and that is the root of the problem, well one of them they are not good with money but they want ever more of it, remember that auditors have been unable to sign of their books for 20 years.

So the truth is that neither side is able to give you a cast iron view of what the world will turn out to be, neither can predict the future, David Buik, financial pundit on the BBC 5 live "Wake up to Money programme said " Its impossible to predict the future more than 6 months into the future, 3 is bad enough" so any Treasury forecasts for the longer term are you guesses and its no surprise when they get them wrong.

Will we get our democracy back or will it be further taken over by Brussels? An out vote would bring some laws repealed whereas staying in would mean that there will be more of a Brussels impact on our lives, so here things are little clearer.

I dont intend to go into Immigration here as it would take too long other than to say its an issue no doubt for a country that is the most densely populated in the continent and I am sure you will all have your views from 6000 miles away.

Whether we stay or go it will be a leap of faith to a certain degree, stay with what you have been used to for the last 40 years or a change of direction based on that experience.

I have voted for out as I believe we can thrive outside of the "Single Market/EU" concept, it will be to the EU's detriment if they cannot come to terms with this, taking the 5th biggest economy out of their market will diminish their influence and they do like influence which is why they are ever expanding. In short I am optimistic over our future outside and pesimistic our it inside.

My influence over how this will be achieved is nil apart from my vote, the same as yours.

[DUS]

... , it will be to the EU's detriment if they cannot come to terms with this, ...

I agree with that comment, absolutely! However, I think it misses the important part that, imho, the UK would suffer as well. Brexit is a lose-lose scenario. And to be honest, I don´t care which side might lose a little bit more in the end. I just hate losing at all.

[buddy]

Seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the June 23rd IN/OUT EU referendum and people want to know the facts.

Here are some facts to consider,

You are not voting to leave the European Economic Area (EEA) or the World Trade Organisation (WTO) meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged when we leave.

Britain's trade with the EU is dwindling year on year and accounts for approximately 14% of our trade, however Britain's trade with the rest of the world is increasing year on year so the EU needs Britain's trade more than Britain needs the EU, for example when Britain leaves the might of the German car industry will be knocking on herr Merkels door looking for a favourable trade deal with Britain.

You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change when we leave.

You are not voting to leave the United Nations, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.

You are not voting to leave Europe, Europe is a continent not a political Union!

You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the EU so your human rights are still guaranteed when we leave.

You are not voting against workers rights. The UK had plenty of workers rights before the EU even existed and these will remain, in fact unlike the UK the EU has no minimum wage so workers are open to exploitation of slave wages by being in the EU.

Just to dispel a few myths,

1. Paid holiday leave - EU 4 weeks.... UK 5.6 weeks.

2. Maternity leave - EU 14 weeks...UK 52 weeks.

3. Maternity pay - EU no minimum pay.... UK 90% of your wages for 6 weeks then £140 for 33 weeks.

4. Equal pay - This was law in 1970 before the UK joined the EU.

5. Wages- The EU has no minimum wage unlike the UK and we have one of the highest minimum wages in the world

6. Discrimination- The UK had laws on sex (1975)and race (1965) discrimination long before the EU.

7. Health and Safety- We in the UK have some of the best health and safety at work and have since 1974...We all look in shock horror at working conditions and standards when on holiday in many EU countries.

You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global organised crime.

Contrary to the belief of some EU fearmongers recently on TV you are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members and this will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).

The UK economy will benefit to the tune of tens of £billions of pounds in the first year after we leave instead of being Billions being sent overseas to the corrupt EU and frittered away. our money can be spent to benefit British people who's hard work paid for the tax money in the first place.

Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU who then get our re-labelled money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.

Farming will not lose money because of EU funding (our own relabelled money) being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.

You are not voting leave to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into organisations like the NHS. Passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport that will not change. However Britain will take full control of its borders back and control who come in to Britain. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS for example, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the USA, Canada and Australia use will come into effect.

You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of a Ford Transit Van Factory from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford £80m!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty and the right to determine our own destiny. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union that the British people did not vote for. You are voting against an EU commission of unelected, elite men and women that nobody at all voted for and yet they make laws and decisions on our behalf without your consent. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives and unlike the EU you have the opportunity every 5 years to vote them out if you don't like them. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, big business and career politician's who need EU money to thrive!

Think about the future...and your family's future.

VOTE LEAVE!

What is the amount that we would save per week if we were to leave the EU. I see you mention tens of billions of pounds?.

Depending on which reference you refer to Britain's direct contributions are anywhere between 50 million and 65 million pounds A DAY! (the 65 Million a day takes takes into account the EU prosperity tax where the EU taxes Britain more the more successful Britain's economy is based on Britains GDP, last year the EU prosperity tax was an extra 1.7 Billion pounds)...so the answer to your question is anywhere between 350 million pounds to 455 million pounds a Week....this does not take into account the burden of cost that EU red tape adds to British businesses so in fact the figure will be higher.

[buddy]

One of the big questions on the economic front asked particularly by the remain groups is "what would the out vote look like for the UK?" Its a fair question on the face of it but is it? You vote to stay as we are life carries on or you vote for a change, well what change?

The way I see it its like this, firstly if there is vote to leave nothing will change straight away, it would take time to "agree" to get out of the EU and a timeline, then treaties will have to be changed/emended or ended this would apparently take 2 years or more, then you would begin to see some small changes and more as time goes whether that would affect the likes of you and me is another question we may not in our remaining lifetime.

If we stay in, putting the boot on the foot, remain have not said what we would see, remember the EU have shelved a raft of new proposals until after the referendum, something that I am suspicious of, what do they not want us to know, what are they afraid of? The truth is that the rmain camp would find it difficult to tell us what remain actually means, apart from "things will carry on as usual". Well I have seen over the years how the EU has morfed from the EEC into the EU and I never saw that coming or wanted it although I am sure some did but chose not to alert the ordinary people about it.

Whilst we have our referendum the Greek situation carries on, its not sorted out is it, the IMF have said they will give no more support that leaves the EU to bail it out, are they making payment back or defaulting? No one is saying but its one of the smaller countries is giving the EU a big problem. The EU bent the rules to allow Greece, Italy and France to join and that is the root of the problem, well one of them they are not good with money but they want ever more of it, remember that auditors have been unable to sign of their books for 20 years.

So the truth is that neither side is able to give you a cast iron view of what the world will turn out to be, neither can predict the future, David Buik, financial pundit on the BBC 5 live "Wake up to Money programme said " Its impossible to predict the future more than 6 months into the future, 3 is bad enough" so any Treasury forecasts for the longer term are you guesses and its no surprise when they get them wrong.

Will we get our democracy back or will it be further taken over by Brussels? An out vote would bring some laws repealed whereas staying in would mean that there will be more of a Brussels impact on our lives, so here things are little clearer.

I dont intend to go into Immigration here as it would take too long other than to say its an issue no doubt for a country that is the most densely populated in the continent and I am sure you will all have your views from 6000 miles away.

Whether we stay or go it will be a leap of faith to a certain degree, stay with what you have been used to for the last 40 years or a change of direction based on that experience.

I have voted for out as I believe we can thrive outside of the "Single Market/EU" concept, it will be to the EU's detriment if they cannot come to terms with this, taking the 5th biggest economy out of their market will diminish their influence and they do like influence which is why they are ever expanding. In short I am optimistic over our future outside and pesimistic our it inside.

My influence over how this will be achieved is nil apart from my vote, the same as yours.

Good points and we do not need to be in a political union to trade!

[DUS]

....this does not take into account the burden of cost that EU red tape adds to British businesses so in fact the figure will be higher.

Does it take into consideration the additional billions of pounds British and UK based companies generate in tax based on being in the EU and based on the free-trade and minimal if any trade barriers between EU members? Just asking....

[buddy]

You nor i or anybody else cannot predict the future when Britain leaves the EU but Britain will be free to make our own trade deals with the rest of the World and in Britain's interests, not the EU interests.

We can however see the past and what a bitter experience for Britain it has been being in the EU for the last 40 years, sovereignty and democracy stolen by function creep, lies and deceit, British industries decimated due to EU red tape, British workers jobs lost by transferring jobs to the EU, non and low skilled British workers wages kept low by wage compression due to mass open door EU immigration, strain in the NHS, housing, schools, food prices kept artificially high by the EU Common agricultural policy are just but a few.

"You nor I or anybody ...": I agree! But my gripe is that the Outers claim they can. "We will be better off." On the other side a comment like "We run the risk of a negative impact on trade and employment" is generally always brushed aside as scaremongering.

"Bitter experience... British industries decimated ... wage compression .... (etc)": You are assuming that all of this is due to the EU and only the EU? The things you mention have nothing to do with the British government and their own policies? Nothing to do with globalisation? Nothing to do with British companies making mistakes, failing to adjust to new market trends etc? Why are so many people within the NHS saying that without immigrants working in the NHS the NHS would have collapsed a long time ago?

Personally, i hate the bitterness in this "black and white" discussion about in/out. The EU isn´t perfect but neither is it the devil in disguise. Personally, I´d like to see the UK to stay in because I think it is better for Britain, better for the EU and better for the world. I also would not want to see my purchasing power in LoS being decimated by a plummeting pound if Britain leaves. But if Britain votes "out" it will certainly be "entertaining" us on this board for months and years to come and I am convinced that these stupid sounding comments from the out campaign that "It will all be fine! We´ll be better off! Nothing will change in terms of trade" etc bla bla bla will be proven utterly wrong.

But only time will tell. Maybe we will find out, maybe we won´t ....

Anyways, a nice weekend to everyone!

DUS

Forget about trade the EU is becoming less and less significant to Britain every year.

Consider this,

How did the EU come to be in the position it is now when Britain actually voted to join a trading block called the European Economic Community (EEC) NOT A POLITICAL Union that interferes in every aspect of our lives?

The EU achieved this by lies, deceit and function creep.

I for one feel i have had my democracy stolen and my country has had its sovereignty stolen by the EU...who gave the unelected EU commission the mandate to rule over us without our consent eh?

These 2 issues are so important that to vote out is the only option to their recovery.

[DUS]

The EU achieved this by lies, deceit and function creep.

I for one feel i have had my democracy stolen and my country has had its sovereignty stolen by the EU...who gave the unelected EU commission the mandate to rule over us without our consent eh?

Well, nothing could ever have happened without the consent of the ELECTED political "elite" in Westminster, Berlin, Paris etc. No treaty would have come into effect without those elected leaders and heads of states agreeing to it. And let´s not forget that most treaties required unanimous decisions (at EU level). So my point is: most if not all of what we moan about these days was not imposed upon us by an alien life form but by the leaders who the electorate voted for in their respective countries. And if those "political elites" are to blame for the misery you and many others feel to be in at the moment why didn´t the UK electorate give UKIP a mandate at the last general election to pull Britain out of the EU without a referendum?

What I am saying is that with all the politicians who eagerly signed all the EU treaties in the past, do we really think that going forward these same politicians and political parties will all of the sudden start make all the right decisions, decisions that are right for Britain? Phew, I like your optimism.... even if I fail to share it......

Edited June 11, 2016 by DUS

[buddy]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3636143/Greediest-snouts-EU-trough-Not-sure-vote-Read-stinking-wealth-hypocrisy-Brussels-fat-cats-Kinnocks-help-decide.html

[buddy]

The EU achieved this by lies, deceit and function creep.

I for one feel i have had my democracy stolen and my country has had its sovereignty stolen by the EU...who gave the unelected EU commission the mandate to rule over us without our consent eh?

Well, nothing could ever have happened without the consent of the ELECTED political "elite" in Westminster, Berlin, Paris etc. No treaty would have come into effect without those elected leaders and heads of states agreeing to it. And let´s not forget that most treaties required unanimous decisions (at EU level). So my point is: most if not all of what we moan about these days was not imposed upon us by an alien life form but by the leaders who the electorate voted for in their respective countries. And if those "political elites" are to blame for the misery you and many others feel to be in at the moment why didn´t the UK electorate give UKIP a mandate at the last general election to pull Britain out of the EU without a referendum?

What I am saying is that with all the politicians who eagerly signed all the EU treaties in the past, do we really think that going forward these same politicians and political parties will all of the sudden start make all the right decisions, decisions that are right for Britain? Phew, I like your optimism.... even if I fail to share it......

The politicians are in it for EU money - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3636143/Greediest-snouts-EU-trough-Not-sure-vote-Read-stinking-wealth-hypocrisy-Brussels-fat-cats-Kinnocks-help-decide.html

Nearly 4 million UKIP voters are the very reason why we are having an EU referendum.

[DUS]

Nearly 4 million UKIP voters are the very reason why we are having an EU referendum.

In my view that´s not the point and in a way it is irrelevant. We could or should then also ask how many millions voted for parties who are pro EU?

[nong38]

... , it will be to the EU's detriment if they cannot come to terms with this, ...

I agree with that comment, absolutely! However, I think it misses the important part that, imho, the UK would suffer as well. Brexit is a lose-lose scenario. And to be honest, I don´t care which side might lose a little bit more in the end. I just hate losing at all.

The point I was making was that the EU I dont think have taken it on board that we might just leave and what life be like them for the EU if we did, I dont think they ever thought we would/might leave. Like our own HMG they have not thought about or planned for the alternative scenario.

Let me honest here, financially the markets dont like uncertainty and that usually means a fall, I expect a fall in the markets and the currency as we get to and after the vote, esp if the vote is to leave. After then the markets will settle down, if we leave it may take a bit longer but they will settle and adapt to the position.

Many years ago our traders set off to the horizon to see what was there, was the world flat or well what would they find? We now know that those brave people prospered, they had optimism on their side then we have done it many times since as well, why should we not do it again? We are still great traders, planers and innovators, not to mention negotiators, we did after all run 1/3 of the world. The EU have done non of these things, they do not have trade agreements with the US or India, why? They are planners and they are poor fixers, they do not hold all the cards, they think they do, perhaps because they think they are better than they are, they conveniently forget or hide all their failures and there have been a few.

In the end we all have our view and at any particular time you make a judgement which proves you right or wrong.

On the 24th June the answer will not be there for us to see, the answer will be further into the future.

If you are bringing money to Thailand do it quickly or wait a while.

[jpinx]

Looks like Netherlands will be deciding on the future of the EU soon too.,,,,,

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/677994/EU-European-Union-referendum-Holland-Netherlands-Brexit-Nexit

Having had their votes ignored by MP's and eurocrats, they are not happy.... I just hope that people in UK will not allow themselves to be scared and herded by the self-interest of the MP's and others, and the vote to leave is carried. We've seen the tactics of the thugs in command when Scotland wanted out........

[buddy]

Nearly 4 million UKIP voters are the very reason why we are having an EU referendum.

In my view that´s not the point and in a way it is irrelevant. We could or should then also ask how many millions voted for parties who are pro EU?

Well in your Euro centric thinking maybe not, however it is a fact that the Conservative led British government thought it such an existential threat to them regaining power they put the EU in/out referendum in their election manifesto, without it being there more voters would have not voted for the Conservative party and more would have voted for UKIP and the Conservatives would have lost power.

So it is VERY relevant!

[nong38]

It occurred to me today that one issue that has not been brought up in the great debate is cricket. Only Denmark and Holland have had a go apart from the French ( who are too tight buy stumps- can you imagine what Broad would do to their legs). The EU just dont get cricket do they and they have made no effort to try and understand it, of course I would not put it past them to try and put a tariff on the game if we leave or VAT on it if we stay.

Lets face it the EU just is not cricket and that says it all really, apart from when the votes are counted will the finger be raised and the EU sent back to the pavilion ( another word they dont recognize-ghosh they have missed a lot)?

[DUS]

It occurred to me today that one issue that has not been brought up in the great debate is cricket. Only Denmark and Holland have had a go apart from the French ( who are too tight buy stumps- can you imagine what Broad would do to their legs). The EU just dont get cricket do they and they have made no effort to try and understand it, of course I would not put it past them to try and put a tariff on the game if we leave or VAT on it if we stay.

Lets face it the EU just is not cricket and that says it all really, apart from when the votes are counted will the finger be raised and the EU sent back to the pavilion ( another word they dont recognize-ghosh they have missed a lot)?

I admit that I miss watching the odd game at Trent Bridge, sipping a few beers and dozing off in the sun.... sigh.....

[nong38]

It occurred to me today that one issue that has not been brought up in the great debate is cricket. Only Denmark and Holland have had a go apart from the French ( who are too tight buy stumps- can you imagine what Broad would do to their legs). The EU just dont get cricket do they and they have made no effort to try and understand it, of course I would not put it past them to try and put a tariff on the game if we leave or VAT on it if we stay.

Lets face it the EU just is not cricket and that says it all really, apart from when the votes are counted will the finger be raised and the EU sent back to the pavilion ( another word they dont recognize-ghosh they have missed a lot)?

I admit that I miss watching the odd game at Trent Bridge, sipping a few beers and dozing off in the sun.... sigh.....

On May the 14th I was doing exactly that, having a pint of Trent Bridge IPA in the Trent Bridge Inn and very good it was too, well worth the trip. It was also whilst riding the 2 new tram lines that I noticed all the "OUT" support along the journey.

Trent Bridge, the bridge is not that big but its fame is vast across the globe, the cricket ground is second only to Lords in stature and a happy hunting ground for the England team.

[gennisis]

I think the 'remain' camp are now verging on the stupid,the latest claim that Bus Passes and OAP TV licences 'MAY BE IN DANGER'

What in the hell has that got to do with the EU ??

All their claims have been preceeded by the word MAY.

Lets be more specific.....No one can possibly know what might happen should the UK vote for Brexit. The EU might act tough or they might be reasonable.Come June 23rd we will see.

[nong38]

I think the 'remain' camp are now verging on the stupid,the latest claim that Bus Passes and OAP TV licences 'MAY BE IN DANGER'

What in the hell has that got to do with the EU ??

All their claims have been preceeded by the word MAY.

Lets be more specific.....No one can possibly know what might happen should the UK vote for Brexit. The EU might act tough or they might be reasonable.Come June 23rd we will see.

Yes may is the word of the moment indeed and the reason they use it is because they are not sure. If the economy goes down then there would be consequences and I think this is what they "guessing about".

Its all speculation and thats what all the rich and the famous are throwing at us, economists, politicians etc SPECULATION, no one knows what the future holds.

The facts they can give us are very few indeed, you look back at history as see facts, although you may also leave some out as well to suit your case.

When I looked at my postal vote, I did not vote straight away, I did have one last think about it and in the end I did still vote out, there are a lot of sensible people who are for out, they are not a bunch of cranks who want to ruin the country they believe that we can prosper without the dubious help of the power mad EU and that fact, the power mad EU is a fact, you can see how they taken more and more control of the continent and frankly I dont like it so I did not change my mind.

Michael Gove is on Andrew Marr next Sunday and I am looking forward to that I think he is good speaker, makes his case and not easily rattled, just hope that Andrew does let him state his case before he makes his challenge.

[nong38]

I see the French airline pilots are going on strike again, France stumbles along from one strike to another, is this what being in the EU is all about? France seems to to do whatever it likes. They have their very own veto on the CAP so you know it is not ever going to change, the French farmers love it, good for them but when Cameron tried to get a Veto on interference with the London Financial Centre he was told there was no chance. Some seem to have more influence than others in the EU but do we really want to go back to strikes again? Funny old world the EU, good place for holidays, wine and food but for most other things I think we do it better and they just cant accept that or wont.

As for security, how did the Russian fans get into the stadium with flares, clubs and axes etc? Hardly helps the cause to stay does it? Whatever next!

[DUS]

I quite liked what Neil Woodford had to say earlier today when asked about his view on Brexit and his investment decisions. Puts Brexit into context......

This realistic caution is a reflection of the complex coalition of linked challenges policymakers face. They are daunting and include, in no particular order: excessive government and consumer debt (excessive corporate debt in China); excess capacity and deflation; rapidly ageing demographics; very weak productivity growth; and a lack of investment.

There are others, such as the unfunded retirement commitments common among Western democracies, inadequate savings, wealth inequality, the rise of political populism, and in my view the challenges posed by the scale of the Chinese credit bubble and the implications of its rapid deflation.

Many of these issues will exert a more profound influence over the UK economy in the long run than will our membership of the European Union. These problems will not be resolved by our membership of the EU nor will they be resolved through leaving it.

In my view, these are the challenges which we must confront if we are to sustain our democracy and deliver the rising living standards that we all expect. Furthermore, these are multi-regional, global problems and their solution requires co-ordinated global policy action, the likes of which we have not really seen since the Bretton Woods Conference and the gathering of delegates from 44 nations in the aftermath of World War II.

[DUS]

I just read an article on bloomberg.com regarding "divided Britain". It´s about yet another YouGov survey claiming to show that the "Brexiteers" are

- older folks

- less educated than the "remainers"

- lower class people

Wow, I immediately thought of us TVF users here in this thread. Not very flattering, ...lol......

Anyway, what I actually quite liked in the article was this piece of analysis:

Both those for and against staying in Europe told pollsters by 6-to-1 margins that the economy has fundamental problems, but as YouGov President Peter Kellner noted, the crucial difference is that they disagree about the causes. The “remain” voters blamed the problems on the banks, the Conservative government and growing inequality. The “leave” voters picked different scapegoats: EU regulations, low-wage immigrant workers and the previous Labour government.

The referendum is not really about Europe or at least it isn't just about Europe. It's about austerity and inequality, opportunity and insecurity. Europe is stuck in a battle for self definition, one that is playing out across major democracies. This is the undertow that threatens Cameron and his "remain" camp.

[nong38]

Apparently 3 opinion polls yesterday all put Brexit in from from between 1 and 7 %. The next few days are going to be very interesting indeed. They are only polls after all but both sides will take heart if it suits their cause or disregard them if it is not favourable.

[DUS]

True....

The sad thing is that whatever the outcome roughly half the population will feel hugely disappointed and in case of a Remain vote even cheated on and robbed. Britain will remain a vastly divided country when it comes to its relationship with the continent and the EU.... regardless of what June 23 will bring. :-(

[piersbeckett]

I just read an article on bloomberg.com regarding "divided Britain". It´s about yet another YouGov survey claiming to show that the "Brexiteers" are

- older folks

- less educated than the "remainers"

- lower class people

Wow, I immediately thought of us TVF users here in this thread. Not very flattering, ...lol......

Anyway, what I actually quite liked in the article was this piece of analysis:

Both those for and against staying in Europe told pollsters by 6-to-1 margins that the economy has fundamental problems, but as YouGov President Peter Kellner noted, the crucial difference is that they disagree about the causes. The “remain” voters blamed the problems on the banks, the Conservative government and growing inequality. The “leave” voters picked different scapegoats: EU regulations, low-wage immigrant workers and the previous Labour government.

The referendum is not really about Europe or at least it isn't just about Europe. It's about austerity and inequality, opportunity and insecurity. Europe is stuck in a battle for self definition, one that is playing out across major democracies. This is the undertow that threatens Cameron and his "remain" camp.

A political change in response to global changes and to expectations of Europeans may be states leaving what so many believe to be a failed or disappointingly ineffective EU beginning with the UK.

[Ace of Pop]