Australia looms large in latest National Rifle Association manifesto

[farcanell]

Seems to me that there is a proportion of the US population who care more about their ancient constitutional rights than the lives of their friends and family. Seems to me that any American who takes the same stance as the NRA, or worse donates money to it, has his head stuck firmly in the sand.

Are you saying that the right to bear arms isn't to make it easier to overthrow tyranny?

What tyranny do you speak of? 18 th and 19 th century wars ( revolution and civil war)

The right to bear arms in a modern war is not an argument, as no army that I can think of, lets you take your own weapons to the fight.

[Bench499d]

Seems to me that there is a proportion of the US population who care more about their ancient constitutional rights than the lives of their friends and family. Seems to me that any American who takes the same stance as the NRA, or worse donates money to it, has his head stuck firmly in the sand.

Are you saying that the right to bear arms isn't to make it easier to overthrow tyranny?

What tyranny do you speak of? 18 th and 19 th century wars ( revolution and civil war)

The right to bear arms in a modern war is not an argument, as no army that I can think of, lets you take your own weapons to the fight.

Putting aside personal opinions on American leaders, what chance is there that the US will need to overthrow tyranny within its own borders? One could say that the guns are tyrannical in themselves.

[MW72]

Yeah right , Australia 1.06 per 100.000 deaths by gun related homicides

USA 10.64

it's working very well for the USA isn't it

Yeah, wrong.

Your source (Wikipedia?) provides basically the same figures but gives the following explanation:

"This is a historical list of countries by firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population in one year.

It should be noted that the following list includes suicides, accidental fatalities, and justifiable homicides."

The published figures for homicides alone are...

Australia - 0.18 per 100 000

U. S. A.. - 3.55 per 100,000

It's working a little bit better for both of us when the correct figures are posted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Ah, so White Christmas 13's incorrect figures would have us believe that the US firearm related homicide rate was 10 times that of Australia whereas you have correctly pointed out that it is in fact closer to 20 times the rate.

Kinda just emphasizes his point.

[OMGImInPattaya]

Seems to me that there is a proportion of the US population who care more about their ancient constitutional rights than the lives of their friends and family. Seems to me that any American who takes the same stance as the NRA, or worse donates money to it, has his head stuck firmly in the sand.

Your country has a serious problem which needs to be solved, wake up!

But I'm just a Brit so what do I know?

Not much as you still genuflect before your betters, The Queen and her retinue, and aren't even a citizen of your own country but a "subject" of said queen.

[OMGImInPattaya]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary have a read of Australian gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

I don't give a rat's turd about Australia's gun laws...if that's what they want that's fine. Americans will adopt gun laws in line with American law, cultural traditions, and historical experience.

Yeah right , Australia 1.06 per 100.000 deaths by gun related homicides

USA 10.64

it's working very well for the USA isn't it

I could care less what the ratio is...1.06, 5.0, 10.0, 50., whatever. People die from all sorts of things...in Oz you got all sorts of poisonous snakes and spiders that kill people that we don't have in the USA, and that's not even counting all the death by salties. There is a problem of access to mental health care and general life stress in American society that should be addressed but this has nothing to do with guns.

[ClutchClark]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary....

Now there is a task the Gods would not have even forced upon Sisyphus!

[kaorop]

Oh this will be another of those threads,

where the europoids, aussies and kiwies

will rise and spout their nonsence.

Osamba Obama bin Lauden can prostrate all he wants.

It will never clear the House/Senate.

It also infers Billary Clinton will persue this.

Watch her numbers fall.

So this AM I sent 5K USD to the NRA.

This is above my annual donation of 2K USD.

I would have been tempted to spend it finishing your education.

Brilliantly funny reply, but will only draw a gun, sorry, contempt from the target, sorry, member.

Edited December 22, 2015 by kaorop

[ClutchClark]

Oh this will be another of those threads,

where the europoids, aussies and kiwies

will rise and spout their nonsence.

Osamba Obama bin Lauden can prostrate all he wants.

It will never clear the House/Senate.

It also infers Billary Clinton will persue this.

Watch her numbers fall.

So this AM I sent 5K USD to the NRA.

This is above my annual donation of 2K USD.

I would have been tempted to spend it finishing your education.

There is an example of the Chicog I used to respect!

Surgical.

[cocopops]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary have a read of Australian gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

I don't give a rat's turd about Australia's gun laws...if that's what they want that's fine. Americans will adopt gun laws in line with American law, cultural traditions, and historical experience.

Would that be the cultural tradition to shoot everything that goes "bump" in the night or the historical experience of 355 mass shootings in one year?

It's the historical experience of settling a frontier, a cultural experience of fathers teaching their sons to hunt, and finally saving gun-fearing countries like Oz from an imminent Japanese invasion and rescuing a gun-hating continent like Europe from the clutches of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.

And your figure for "mass shootings" is so bogus...what's it down to now...two or more injured or killed is now a "mass" shooting; and the majority of these so called mass shootings are drunken bar brawls wherein people get injured or killed by a gun. These are hardly the type of incidents most people associate as a "mass shooting" event.

They do sound like the type of incidents that stricter gun laws would reduce though.

Edited December 22, 2015 by cocopops

[Richard W]

Seems to me that there is a proportion of the US population who care more about their ancient constitutional rights than the lives of their friends and family. Seems to me that any American who takes the same stance as the NRA, or worse donates money to it, has his head stuck firmly in the sand.

Are you saying that the right to bear arms isn't to make it easier to overthrow tyranny?

What tyranny do you speak of? 18 th and 19 th century wars ( revolution and civil war)

The right to bear arms in a modern war is not an argument, as no army that I can think of, lets you take your own weapons to the fight.

Putting aside personal opinions on American leaders, what chance is there that the US will need to overthrow tyranny within its own borders? One could say that the guns are tyrannical in themselves.

18th (and 17th - don't forget the English Civil War) century wars are the inspiration.

An armed uprising will use what arms it can get. Did the Afghan mujahideen start with a standard weapons issue? Part of the argument is that a well-armed populace deters tyranny.

Why put aside personal opinions on American leaders? Presidents of the United States have been known to ignore its Supreme Court. Now, I don't think Hillary Clinton is planning to disarm the people so she can ride roughshod over the constitution, but some have considered that a possibility. British liberties are being reduced, so the general trend in the Anglo-Saxon world is worrying.

[cocopops]

Seems to me that there is a proportion of the US population who care more about their ancient constitutional rights than the lives of their friends and family. Seems to me that any American who takes the same stance as the NRA, or worse donates money to it, has his head stuck firmly in the sand.

Your country has a serious problem which needs to be solved, wake up!

But I'm just a Brit so what do I know?

Not much as you still genuflect before your betters, The Queen and her retinue, and aren't even a citizen of your own country but a "subject" of said queen.

Incorrect since 1949.

[farcanell]

Seems to me that there is a proportion of the US population who care more about their ancient constitutional rights than the lives of their friends and family. Seems to me that any American who takes the same stance as the NRA, or worse donates money to it, has his head stuck firmly in the sand.

Are you saying that the right to bear arms isn't to make it easier to overthrow tyranny?

What tyranny do you speak of? 18 th and 19 th century wars ( revolution and civil war)

The right to bear arms in a modern war is not an argument, as no army that I can think of, lets you take your own weapons to the fight.

Putting aside personal opinions on American leaders, what chance is there that the US will need to overthrow tyranny within its own borders? One could say that the guns are tyrannical in themselves.

18th (and 17th - don't forget the English Civil War) century wars are the inspiration.

An armed uprising will use what arms it can get. Did the Afghan mujahideen start with a standard weapons issue? Part of the argument is that a well-armed populace deters tyranny.

Why put aside personal opinions on American leaders? Presidents of the United States have been known to ignore its Supreme Court. Now, I don't think Hillary Clinton is planning to disarm the people so she can ride roughshod over the constitution, but some have considered that a possibility. British liberties are being reduced, so the general trend in the Anglo-Saxon world is worrying.

Correct... A rebellious uprising will indeed use whatever weapons they can lay their hands on.... And as the average American seems to already have a mini personal arsenal, I actually see little merit in trying to change the status quo

Nut jobs will still get their guns, and gun related violence will continue... This type of change in the US will be only achievable over the course of a few generations

But as it doesn't effect me, I accept that my personal view has no relevance

All I can do personally, is hope that an armed uprising never happens again, given the horrors of the civil war, in the 1860's... Brother against brother, father against son... Absolutely horrific battle death statistics to boot

That said, I don't see any changes of note in the general trends in Australia, regarding gun ownership, which seems now to be more responsible in our society, even though, as in America, the bad elements can still get firearms.

But I dare not assume to speak to much on behalf of the Brits, as they seem to have one hell of a problem looming in the not too distant future, and perhaps curtailing some of their civil liberties is a step towards reducing the effect of the whirlwind to come

[mopar71]

• The percentage of homicides committed with a firearm continued a declining trend which began in 1969. In 2003, fewer than 16% of homicides involved firearms. The figure was similar in 2002 and 2001, down from a high of 44% in 1968.

16%?? That's 1 in 6. I thought they confiscated the guns? Who are these shooters and where did they get their firearms?

[Lopchan]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary have a read of Australian gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

I don't give a rat's turd about Australia's gun laws...if that's what they want that's fine. Americans will adopt gun laws in line with American law, cultural traditions, and historical experience.

Yeah right , Australia 1.06 per 100.000 deaths by gun related homicides

USA 10.64

it's working very well for the USA isn't it

Yeah, wrong.

Your source (Wikipedia?) provides basically the same figures but gives the following explanation:

"This is a historical list of countries by firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population in one year.

It should be noted that the following list includes suicides, accidental fatalities, and justifiable homicides."

The published figures for homicides alone are...

Australia - 0.18 per 100 000

U. S. A.. - 3.55 per 100,000

It's working a little bit better for both of us when the correct figures are posted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Works a little better Chuck? With the figures you've quoted, it shows that instead of ten times the number of gun related homicides, it blows out to nearly 20 times.

Now put in real figures

Aus- Population: 24 million / 100K = 240 X 0.18 = 43.2 deaths / year

USA - Population: 326 million / 100K = 3260 x 3.55 = 11573 (actually, this year it's already over 12, 000)

Here's a great link, which is updated in real time, so if you like you can watch it climb sorta like a video game and celebrate a new "high score"

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

I was unable to find the current figures for OZ (maybe because there are so few, real time is less noticable)

Please note that so far this year there have been over 50K "incidents" involving firearms in the US with only 4232 of those involving the police.

Draw your own conclusions from the figures.

Final word: I forget who stated it, but the "we saved you from the JApanese, we saved you from Hitler" thing is tired and totally irrelevant here.

You also need to remember you were late to the party on that one as you were too busy supplying materials of war to Nazi germany (profiteering)

Add to that fact, that all of the so called teaching us how to "defend" other countries, yes, that worked so well in Vietnam didn't it.

[simple1]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary have a read of Australian gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

I don't give a rat's turd about Australia's gun laws...if that's what they want that's fine. Americans will adopt gun laws in line with American law, cultural traditions, and historical experience.

Wasn't suggesting you should care about Oz gun laws, just an opportunity to review the reality of the Oz legislation. Out of curiously after reading the link what do you specifically object to in the US context?

So why post the link? And no I wouldn't waste my time reading up on Australia's guns laws because I'm not interested in them and I think America's are fine as is. (Well, actually they're far too strict in many places and I support efforts to roll-back allot of these unconstitutional laws.) As I said, Australians are free to govern and make laws on how they want to live. I don't have any problem with that. I just wish people would also give Americans and our laws and constitution the same respect.

Again posting the link was for members who are interested in Oz gun ownership legislation when considering if they wish to respond to the OP, you're not interested to do so, so be it. As to your other observation, read the OP, in the context of this topic it's American citizens who are trying to encourage a debate to revise gun ownership legislation, not foreigners.

Edited December 22, 2015 by simple1

[shirtless]

There is some truth to this since the gun buy back scheme and banning of semi autos gun crime has risen.

[duckmandon]

Australia have very sensible gun laws. An excellent model to follow.

Presumably they are fine for Australia. That doesn't mean other countries who have different traditions, cultures and constitutional rights should follow them or use them as a model.

Maybe Australia should follow the American model; or the Swiss model?

Why would Australia follow an American model. The laws were written in the original constitution & have not been updated for over 200 years. A bit backward don't you think? Just like the American thoughts on the world. It's only America, no other countries exist in their history. I can feel safe when I walk the streets in Australia which I wouldn't in America because there are to many crazies there with guns that they are allowed to carry in public. Fact not fiction!!!!! Maybe that's why Americans need to be armed just in case another crazy tries to attack them.

[simple1]

Seems to me that there is a proportion of the US population who care more about their ancient constitutional rights than the lives of their friends and family. Seems to me that any American who takes the same stance as the NRA, or worse donates money to it, has his head stuck firmly in the sand.

Your country has a serious problem which needs to be solved, wake up!

But I'm just a Brit so what do I know?

Not much as you still genuflect before your betters, The Queen and her retinue, and aren't even a citizen of your own country but a "subject" of said queen.

A good example of ill-informed commentary

[OMGImInPattaya]

Seems to me that there is a proportion of the US population who care more about their ancient constitutional rights than the lives of their friends and family. Seems to me that any American who takes the same stance as the NRA, or worse donates money to it, has his head stuck firmly in the sand.

Your country has a serious problem which needs to be solved, wake up!

But I'm just a Brit so what do I know?

Not much as you still genuflect before your betters, The Queen and her retinue, and aren't even a citizen of your own country but a "subject" of said queen.

Incorrect since 1949.

Correct until it's the "United Republic" rather than the "United Kingdom."

[OMGImInPattaya]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary have a read of Australian gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

I don't give a rat's turd about Australia's gun laws...if that's what they want that's fine. Americans will adopt gun laws in line with American law, cultural traditions, and historical experience.

Wasn't suggesting you should care about Oz gun laws, just an opportunity to review the reality of the Oz legislation. Out of curiously after reading the link what do you specifically object to in the US context?

So why post the link? And no I wouldn't waste my time reading up on Australia's guns laws because I'm not interested in them and I think America's are fine as is. (Well, actually they're far too strict in many places and I support efforts to roll-back allot of these unconstitutional laws.) As I said, Australians are free to govern and make laws on how they want to live. I don't have any problem with that. I just wish people would also give Americans and our laws and constitution the same respect.

Again posting the link was for members who are interested in Oz gun ownership legislation when considering if they wish to respond to the OP, you're not interested to do so, so be it. As to your other observation, read the OP, in the context of this topic it's American citizens who are trying to encourage a debate to revise gun ownership legislation, not foreigners.

Its already been debated to death but the anti-Second Amendment crowd will never be satisfied until all guns are confiscated like in Australia.

[DM07]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary have a read of Australian gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

I don't give a rat's turd about Australia's gun laws...if that's what they want that's fine. Americans will adopt gun laws in line with American law, cultural traditions, and historical experience.

Would that be the cultural tradition to shoot everything that goes "bump" in the night or the historical experience of 355 mass shootings in one year?

It's the historical experience of settling a frontier, a cultural experience of fathers teaching their sons to hunt, and finally saving gun-fearing countries like Oz from an imminent Japanese invasion and rescuing a gun-hating continent like Europe from the clutches of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.

And your figure for "mass shootings" is so bogus...what's it down to now...two or more injured or killed is now a "mass" shooting; and the majority of these so called mass shootings are drunken bar brawls wherein people get injured or killed by a gun. These are hardly the type of incidents most people associate as a "mass shooting" event.

Oh deary me...

[DM07]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary have a read of Australian gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

I don't give a rat's turd about Australia's gun laws...if that's what they want that's fine. Americans will adopt gun laws in line with American law, cultural traditions, and historical experience.

Yeah right , Australia 1.06 per 100.000 deaths by gun related homicides

USA 10.64

it's working very well for the USA isn't it

I could care less what the ratio is...1.06, 5.0, 10.0, 50., whatever. People die from all sorts of things...in Oz you got all sorts of poisonous snakes and spiders that kill people that we don't have in the USA, and that's not even counting all the death by salties. There is a problem of access to mental health care and general life stress in American society that should be addressed but this has nothing to do with guns.

You should change your username to OMGImindenial!

Now the gun- nuts are not only taking hammers or cars as example for things that kill people, besides guns.

Now mother nature herself is on par with some hillybilly redneck, who shoots up Planned Parenthood!

[simple1]

<snip>

Its already been debated to death but the anti-Second Amendment crowd will never be satisfied until all guns are confiscated like in Australia.

As you are refusing to acquaint yourself with Australian gun laws, you're doing exactly what I was trying to minimise; making ill-informed comments. Or in truth are you just baiting / trolling?

[gemguy]

Collectively the pieces argue Australians are less safe due to tough gun laws

That is just a rubbish statement

Over the past 18 years (1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007), the rate* of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07. *rate per 100,000 population. (Australia)

That is all homicides, not just firearms

• The percentage of homicides committed with a firearm continued a declining trend which began in 1969. In 2003, fewer than 16% of homicides involved firearms. The figure was similar in 2002 and 2001, down from a high of 44% in 1968.

https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjN_Me43u7JAhVVjo4KHaCZAvgQFggkMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aic.gov.au%2Fstatistics%2Fhomicide.html&usg=AFQjCNEVUTeK1CaVdqrgFja5eFG0-Tzwvw&sig2=4tQp6QxBCGnVRfNjr9ugEw

I am not a supporter of the NRA and their self serving doctrine that suits them and in effect promotes and protects and sustains the firearms industry that is the basis of the gun related problems that America suffers now and will forever suffer.

It is far too late for the USA while the gun related social problems will continue to grow worse...not better.

The dialogue set forth in the NRA propaganda basically reveals to me that America ( as wonderful as it is in many aspects ) is also a very sick place in so many ways while the numerous social ramifications of having an abundance of guns readily available to the citizens is such that living in America actually has come to the point that American citizens need to arm themselves to protect themselves from all the sickos and weirdo's and Fxxked up American citizens and gun toting criminals that America has an overwhelming abundance of.

In comparison, Australia has far less desperate people and gun toting criminals and crazies and weirdoes and sickos and low life wanna be gang member criminals and drug addicts and drug traffickers and human Fxxk ups in general, per capita, than the USA.

If the US Government did try to reclaim all the guns I doubt that the gun owning citizens would start a civil war such as they speak of ....or so say they say and in theory which is spouted by the gun toting, gun zealots that claim they will fight to the death to keep their guns and weapons and protect their right to own a gun.

If that was the case then I surmise that many other Americans would be indifferent to the plight of any guns owners that were shot and killed by a Gun ( killed by a gun of all things...who would have guessed ) while trying to protect their Gun(s) and their rights to own a gun...of all things to be dying from.

Just saying

Edited December 24, 2015 by gemguy

[Grouse]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary have a read of Australian gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

I don't give a rat's turd about Australia's gun laws...if that's what they want that's fine. Americans will adopt gun laws in line with American law, cultural traditions, and historical experience.

Would that be the cultural tradition to shoot everything that goes "bump" in the night or the historical experience of 355 mass shootings in one year?

It's the historical experience of settling a frontier, a cultural experience of fathers teaching their sons to hunt, and finally saving gun-fearing countries like Oz from an imminent Japanese invasion and rescuing a gun-hating continent like Europe from the clutches of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.

And your figure for "mass shootings" is so bogus...what's it down to now...two or more injured or killed is now a "mass" shooting; and the majority of these so called mass shootings are drunken bar brawls wherein people get injured or killed by a gun. These are hardly the type of incidents most people associate as a "mass shooting" event.

Please get an education before spouting drivel on here

As for your ridiculous fetish with guns, please yourselves. I for one have given up caring

Bang, bang - you're dead!

[neverdie]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary have a read of Australian gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

I don't give a rat's turd about Australia's gun laws...if that's what they want that's fine. Americans will adopt gun laws in line with American law, cultural traditions, and historical experience.

It's a custom of open slaughter of innocent men, women and children, all based around fantasy. Sad custom. Edited December 24, 2015 by neverdie

[Rancid]

US gun laws are an issue for the US. How about they don't copy Aussie gun laws and in return we don't have to copy US laughably titled patriot act laws.

[Seastallion]

To say it's too late to change because the culture is embedded is the same as saying it's too late to make Thailand roads safer because poor driving is embedded in the culture.

One has to try! And it IS possible to change...even if it is a long-term goal that will take a generation.

[Seastallion]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary have a read of Australian gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

I don't give a rat's turd about Australia's gun laws...if that's what they want that's fine. Americans will adopt gun laws in line with American law, cultural traditions, and historical experience.

It's a custom of open slaughter of innocent men, women and children, all based around fantasy. Sad custom.

Good to see you back around the traps, old mate.

[thaibeachlovers]

In an endeavour to stop this topic immediately descending into ill-informed commentary have a read of Australian gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

I hope everyone reads it and learns that research does not support the contention that banning guns reduces gun caused deaths. Obviously there is something different in the psyches of Oz/ NZ citizens as against US citizens that explains the lower death rate.