AleG Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Inspiring such confidence in their DNA testing results, its the same lab that said they tested the hoe and found no DNA on it. The defense team told Khaosod English that they will discuss which pieces of additional evidence they would like send to the Central Institute of Forensic Science, a lab administered by the Ministry of Justice. Pol.Lt.Col. Kewalee, who conducted police’s original testing of the garden hoe, told the court today that only Witheridge’s blood was found on the weapon. No other DNA was found on the tool, she said. She also did not supply the full documentation of the results she gathered in her forensic testing, citing a policy that bars scientists from providing investigative officers with detailed graphs of a person’s genetic makeup. http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437661326 Tsk tsk... the current "truth", the one being used on a new online petition is that "NO DNA testing was done on the hoe!!!!one!!!eleven!!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bung Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 BANGKOK, 10 July 2015 The Royal Thai Police chief has clarified that the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case had been stored at the Institute of Forensic Medicine, quelling allegations that the evidence was lost during investigation. The Royal Thai Police Commissioner-General Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang, addressed a misunderstanding about the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case, giving an assurance that the evidence was not lost. He cited the Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner, stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine by investigators, before being examined by the Central Scientific Crime Detection Division. The examination results of the DNA samples have been used to compile forensic evidence for the cases court proceedings. http://www.forensic-news.com/police-chief-says-talk-of-lost-koh-tao-dna-a-misunderstanding-pattaya-mail-pattaya-news/ ........but I thought that all of you lot were remonstrating about the DNA evidence going AWOL. Appears that your protests weren't warranted. The whole "DNA is lost!" brouhaha came from the time the Phangan police chief testified, what he said was that they didn't have the DNA evidence collected at the crime scene, because they had already sent it to Bangkok to the Forensic Institute. Somehow the last part got conveniently overlooked and next thing you hear was that the police said there was no more DNA evidence. Can you back up that statement with any credible link? If not It's just hearsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asiamaster Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Siding with the prosecutor, the court yesterday accepted the DNA test as valid and up to international standards. It rejected argument from the defense lawyers that the DNA test was performed solely by the Institute of Forensic Medicine, which operates under the Thai police force, could have been forged or tampered with. http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042373 yes I hear you but what are you saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUH Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) Inspiring such confidence in their DNA testing results, its the same lab that said they tested the hoe and found no DNA on it. The defense team told Khaosod English that they will discuss which pieces of additional evidence they would like send to the Central Institute of Forensic Science, a lab administered by the Ministry of Justice. Pol.Lt.Col. Kewalee, who conducted police’s original testing of the garden hoe, told the court today that only Witheridge’s blood was found on the weapon. No other DNA was found on the tool, she said. She also did not supply the full documentation of the results she gathered in her forensic testing, citing a policy that bars scientists from providing investigative officers with detailed graphs of a person’s genetic makeup. http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437661326 Tsk tsk... the current "truth", the one being used on a new online petition is that "NO DNA testing was done on the hoe!!!!one!!!eleven!!!!" Outsanding AleG please refer your point to the comments section of the petition Edited December 30, 2015 by HUH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTee Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) Okay here is the link where it was stated that that DNA HAD BEEN sent to Singapore. All that this forensic evidence was used for was to narrow down their search and to exclude that the DNA was from David or any of the foreigners on the island at that time. It was stated before the B2 were arrested and I see no reason why he would be lying about this. I mean Nomsod is also Asian isn't he? http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2014/09/22/more-dna-evidence-collected-koh-tao-police-move-new-field-suspects You have a very low bar for a burden of proof - you link to a "news" site, that is reporting what was said on another "news" site, and to you that is a confirmed "fact" that DNA HAD BEEN sent.. Agreed but the same can be said for those who are posting links in defense of the B2. Okay I'll ask you a question then: why did they decide to narrow down their search to Asians only? And if you would know of an institute that could do the DNA ethnicity test in Thailand please provide me a link to their website. And the quote is "the DNA of two Asian men was found at the crime scene and had been sent to Singapore for advanced analysis". So yeah good question asiamaster! How would a policeman know if he found the DNA of an Asian man, how would he know it even human DNA, how would he know it was 2 men.. I'm glad you are starting to pay attention . Given, as you state, there is no known "institute that could do the DNA ethnicity test in Thailand".. How does this policeman know even before sending some DNA sample to somewhere for advanced analysis? Given, as I posted earlier, that the top professor of genetics at Geneva says you cannot determine race from DNA profiling.. How does a policeman know it is 2 Asian men's DNA? Emmanouil (Manolis) Dermitzakis - Professor of Genetics at the University of Geneva in Switzerland say that Race cannot be determined from DNA profiles. See his Reddit AMA I'd wager he knows more about DNA than most posters here. Also population geneticist John Novembre say race cannot be determined by DNA profiling. He explained it in a Reddit AMA: "There simply hasnt been enough time since we spread across the globe for extensive differences to have accumulated across the genome." I'd wager he knows more about DNA than most posters here. While certain characteristic can be shown by profiling DNA this is way beyond basic profiling and takes weeks if not months to develop a theory which may be more or less accurate. Given this statement was made only days after the discovery of the crime scene, how could a detailed analysis have been made that could even produce a statistical likelihood of the race of source of the DNA? There is only one way that a Policeman knew that the DNA belonged to 2 Asian men. I'm sure if you question more you will find your eureka moment - Be strong brother. Edited December 30, 2015 by MrTee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenterry Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 BANGKOK, 10 July 2015 The Royal Thai Police chief has clarified that the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case had been stored at the Institute of Forensic Medicine, quelling allegations that the evidence was lost during investigation. The Royal Thai Police Commissioner-General Pol Gen Somyot Pumpunmuang, addressed a misunderstanding about the DNA samples in the Koh Tao murder case, giving an assurance that the evidence was not lost. He cited the Provincial Police Region 8 Commissioner, stating that all collected DNA samples from the date of the incident had been sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine by investigators, before being examined by the Central Scientific Crime Detection Division. The examination results of the DNA samples have been used to compile forensic evidence for the cases court proceedings. http://www.forensic-news.com/police-chief-says-talk-of-lost-koh-tao-dna-a-misunderstanding-pattaya-mail-pattaya-news/ ........but I thought that all of you lot were remonstrating about the DNA evidence going AWOL. Appears that your protests weren't warranted. The whole "DNA is lost!" brouhaha came from the time the Phangan police chief testified, what he said was that they didn't have the DNA evidence collected at the crime scene, because they had already sent it to Bangkok to the Forensic Institute. Somehow the last part got conveniently overlooked and next thing you hear was that the police said there was no more DNA evidence. Do you have any credible link for that? Otherswise it's just hearsay. As smedly would say, provide the original samples and test them independently against the b2. What's so difficult if it's genuine evidence? That would shut everyone up, but that won't happen because it won't match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky11 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 what was sent to Singapore? Nothing went to Singapore, all original DNA testing was carried out at "The Institute of Forensic Medicine: attached to the Police Hospital in Bangkok. There lab technicians and witnesses were at the trial and took the stand explaining their procedure with one even commenting on how surprisingly quickly the test results were obtained from their own lab. Unfortunately we have a couple of posters here saying the dna was tested in Singapore they obviously have not followed the trial in any detail. That several laboratories were involved in the process was known since the beginning. The Bangkok Post today lists the Chiang Mai University, Prince of Songkla University and Chulalongkorn University as laboratories that were used to verify the DNA evidence. For what reason would these universities fabricate the results, mix up samples etc: I just don't see that the work done in these university labs being unreliable or disbelievable. This being the case, then what's all the screeching about. They would have to collude together in such a way that would be impossible to produce unsatisfactory results that implicate a certain pair. Why would they need to be sent to an independent test lab to be reliable, it just isn't necessary? Forget about Singapore, Myanmar or the UK and have confidence in the results!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCruncher Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 what was sent to Singapore? Nothing went to Singapore, all original DNA testing was carried out at "The Institute of Forensic Medicine: attached to the Police Hospital in Bangkok. There lab technicians and witnesses were at the trial and took the stand explaining their procedure with one even commenting on how surprisingly quickly the test results were obtained from their own lab. Unfortunately we have a couple of posters here saying the dna was tested in Singapore they obviously have not followed the trial in any detail. That several laboratories were involved in the process was known since the beginning. The Bangkok Post today lists the Chiang Mai University, Prince of Songkla University and Chulalongkorn University as laboratories that were used to verify the DNA evidence. For what reason would these universities fabricate the results, mix up samples etc: I just don't see that the work done in these university labs being unreliable or disbelievable. This being the case, then what's all the screeching about. They would have to collude together in such a way that would be impossible to produce unsatisfactory results that implicate a certain pair. Why would they need to be sent to an independent test lab to be reliable, it just isn't necessary? Forget about Singapore, Myanmar or the UK and have confidence in the results!! Don't you understand that those universities were paid off, same as the RTP, the Press, witnesses, the defense lawyers and some even suggest the victims family. In fact I believe that in this case more money went under the table than the total Thai GDP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenterry Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 what was sent to Singapore? Nothing went to Singapore, all original DNA testing was carried out at "The Institute of Forensic Medicine: attached to the Police Hospital in Bangkok. There lab technicians and witnesses were at the trial and took the stand explaining their procedure with one even commenting on how surprisingly quickly the test results were obtained from their own lab. Unfortunately we have a couple of posters here saying the dna was tested in Singapore they obviously have not followed the trial in any detail. That several laboratories were involved in the process was known since the beginning. The Bangkok Post today lists the Chiang Mai University, Prince of Songkla University and Chulalongkorn University as laboratories that were used to verify the DNA evidence. For what reason would these universities fabricate the results, mix up samples etc: I just don't see that the work done in these university labs being unreliable or disbelievable. This being the case, then what's all the screeching about. They would have to collude together in such a way that would be impossible to produce unsatisfactory results that implicate a certain pair. Why would they need to be sent to an independent test lab to be reliable, it just isn't necessary? Forget about Singapore, Myanmar or the UK and have confidence in the results!! You are so naive. Who received the results? The rtp. Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUH Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 what was sent to Singapore? Nothing went to Singapore, all original DNA testing was carried out at "The Institute of Forensic Medicine: attached to the Police Hospital in Bangkok. There lab technicians and witnesses were at the trial and took the stand explaining their procedure with one even commenting on how surprisingly quickly the test results were obtained from their own lab. Unfortunately we have a couple of posters here saying the dna was tested in Singapore they obviously have not followed the trial in any detail. That several laboratories were involved in the process was known since the beginning. The Bangkok Post today lists the Chiang Mai University, Prince of Songkla University and Chulalongkorn University as laboratories that were used to verify the DNA evidence. Yes we are all aware of that but as you well know that was for the mass DNA testing of people in KT but NOT for the DNA testing of the alleged DNA found on/in Hannah. That was done in Bangkok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky11 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 To ST. Who then used them in the court case!! so what's the problem? The defence was given the same results and for some unknown reason declined to use them. What was their concern. Are you saying that the 3 universities fabricated the results handed to both teams? If not, then they were of more use to the prosecution in what they revealed!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky11 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Don't kid them cruncher!! This will become a fact now, in their eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTee Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 what was sent to Singapore? Nothing went to Singapore, all original DNA testing was carried out at "The Institute of Forensic Medicine: attached to the Police Hospital in Bangkok. There lab technicians and witnesses were at the trial and took the stand explaining their procedure with one even commenting on how surprisingly quickly the test results were obtained from their own lab. Unfortunately we have a couple of posters here saying the dna was tested in Singapore they obviously have not followed the trial in any detail. That several laboratories were involved in the process was known since the beginning. The Bangkok Post today lists the Chiang Mai University, Prince of Songkla University and Chulalongkorn University as laboratories that were used to verify the DNA evidence. For what reason would these universities fabricate the results, mix up samples etc: I just don't see that the work done in these university labs being unreliable or disbelievable. This being the case, then what's all the screeching about. They would have to collude together in such a way that would be impossible to produce unsatisfactory results that implicate a certain pair. Why would they need to be sent to an independent test lab to be reliable, it just isn't necessary? Forget about Singapore, Myanmar or the UK and have confidence in the results!! The answer is simple enough : Garbage in - Garbage out, Garbage in - Garbage out - no need for a massive conspiracy, or payoffs, or fabrication from the Universities. What was actually sent to the Universities? Garbage in - Garbage out Garbage in - Garbage out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beammeup Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I have no connection with any other posters here and not wanting to repeat myself, I can say that now that I am more acquainted with the facts, I am content with the guilty verdict and as proponent of the death penalty, I do support the sentence. Yes but why repeat this as a daily, repeated message in the forum ? It will not help either side , I also believe B2 are involved somehow and not just some random scape goats , but when not all the facts are on the table , you just can't defend a death sentence, especially in this case I do support a life sentence , if they are the real killers. I agree completely, balo. A very balanced opinion. How can you agree completely? he supports a life sentence if they are guilty as do I. You states that they are 100% innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGareth2 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) why is it that Singapore is not willing to confirm the DNA testing? I can tell you why DELETED simple 100 lies don't make a truth I read that you wanted the truth How about starting with just a little one it will get easier go on give it a try Edited December 30, 2015 by seedy troll / flaming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCruncher Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 why is it that Singapore is not willing to confirm the DNA testing? I can tell you why you are lying simple 100 lies don't make a truth I read that you wanted the truth How about starting with just a little one it will get easier go on give it a try Has there been a request to Singapore for confirming the DNA, and have they denied to comply, or is this something you just made up between your soup and potatoes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGareth2 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) refute my claim with facts DELETED Edited December 30, 2015 by seedy troll / flaming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCruncher Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 refute my claim with facts sorry I don't frequent soup kitchens Thanks for confirming that there never has been a request for confirmation. NEXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2fishin2 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Let it go people.....its finished and you guys are fighting each other for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedy Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 One Troll / Flaming post removed Two posters are going back and forth. Agree to Disagree and move on please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGareth2 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 sorry not into soup and pottatoes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AleG Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 The whole "DNA is lost!" brouhaha came from the time the Phangan police chief testified, what he said was that they didn't have the DNA evidence collected at the crime scene, because they had already sent it to Bangkok to the Forensic Institute. Somehow the last part got conveniently overlooked and next thing you hear was that the police said there was no more DNA evidence. Do you have any credible link for that? Otherswise it's just hearsay. "So when the defence lawyer asked him in the court about the DNA samples and evidence, he said he did not have them. This may have made people misunderstand that the evidence no longer exists or was lost," the police chief said. Thawatchai agreed, saying the BBC had misunderstood the officer and that the evidence had not been lost. However, he said, some DNA samples may have been used up in accordance with the examination process." How about you ask the people making the claim that the police said all DNA evidence was lost provide a source? The closest primary source is from a journalist saying that the evidence collected from Witheridge's body was "finished" (you see how nice I am, I'm even doing your job for you). "Koh Tao trial. Items that can be retested: hoe, shoe, bag. Items that can't: ("finished") -all DNA from Hannah Witheridge body." The context of that quote was the Phangan police chief being asked what evidence they (the Phangan local police) could provide for re-examination, they didn't have those DNA samples (taken at the crime scene) because they had been sent out, furthermore the post-mortem was done in Bangkok so any and all DNA evidence collected there (in particular the one from inside the victim) had nothing to do with what the Phangan police chief said so either way the preposition that DNA from Witheridge is lost is a non-starter. But wait, it gets better than that, the only quote I've seen from Pol Lt-General Decha Butrnampetch is: "Much of the defence’s case revolves around a bid to retest key forensic evidence, including DNA on cigarettes and a condom found near the crime scene as well as DNA swabs taken from the victims’ bodies. “The DNA on the cigarettes is all finished,” the head of police on the nearby island of Koh Pha Ngan told the defence team outside the courtroom on Koh Samui on Thursday." Which again it's a moot point because the cigarette butts were not used as evidence against the two Burmese anyway. So what again is the problem here? That evidence that was not used against the Burmese supposedly can't be contested? To mix metaphors, this is nothing but clutching at windmills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUH Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Activist group Anonymous joins protest against convictions of men for David Miller's death http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2015-12-30/activist-group-anonymous-joins-protest-against-convictions-of-men-for-david-millers-death/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky11 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Let it go people.....its finished and you guys are fighting each other for no reason. The truest word spoken for a long while!! Something that we should all agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AleG Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) That several laboratories were involved in the process was known since the beginning.The Bangkok Post today lists the Chiang Mai University, Prince of Songkla University and Chulalongkorn University as laboratories that were used to verify the DNA evidence. For what reason would these universities fabricate the results, mix up samples etc: I just don't see that the work done in these university labs being unreliable or disbelievable. This being the case, then what's all the screeching about. They would have to collude together in such a way that would be impossible to produce unsatisfactory results that implicate a certain pair. Why would they need to be sent to an independent test lab to be reliable, it just isn't necessary? Forget about Singapore, Myanmar or the UK and have confidence in the results!! The answer is simple enough : Garbage in - Garbage out, Garbage in - Garbage out - no need for a massive conspiracy, or payoffs, or fabrication from the Universities. What was actually sent to the Universities? Garbage in - Garbage out Garbage in - Garbage out Right, they sent DNA from Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo to the labs at the start of the investigation so that after two weeks of running around like headless chicken naming suspects left right and center as a diversionary tactic they would suddenly go "Aha! DNA match! this are the guys!" Or is your theory even more... challenged, and you are suggesting that they actually sent garbage (completely unrelated DNA samples, no DNA, what?) to the universities and they didn't notice that or just played along with the charade, oh, no you said no massive conspiracies. Hmmm... So what are you talking about? Never mind asking for any shred of evidence that whatever you are talking about, ever happened... as if ever. You are just throwing poorly (I'm feeling generous) thought ideas around expecting them to be accepted, and you talk about Garbage In Garbage Out? Pfffff. Edited December 30, 2015 by AleG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthEnergiser Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Activist group Anonymous joins protest against convictions of men for David Miller's death http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2015-12-30/activist-group-anonymous-joins-protest-against-convictions-of-men-for-david-millers-death/Thats interesting they would be capable at getting to the bottom of something like this from what i have read about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky11 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 The whole "DNA is lost!" brouhaha came from the time the Phangan police chief testified, what he said was that they didn't have the DNA evidence collected at the crime scene, because they had already sent it to Bangkok to the Forensic Institute. Somehow the last part got conveniently overlooked and next thing you hear was that the police said there was no more DNA evidence. Do you have any credible link for that? Otherswise it's just hearsay. "So when the defence lawyer asked him in the court about the DNA samples and evidence, he said he did not have them. This may have made people misunderstand that the evidence no longer exists or was lost," the police chief said. Thawatchai agreed, saying the BBC had misunderstood the officer and that the evidence had not been lost. However, he said, some DNA samples may have been used up in accordance with the examination process." How about you ask the people making the claim that the police said all DNA evidence was lost provide a source? The closest primary source is from a journalist saying that the evidence collected from Witheridge's body was "finished" (you see how nice I am, I'm even doing your job for you). "Koh Tao trial. Items that can be retested: hoe, shoe, bag. Items that can't: ("finished") -all DNA from Hannah Witheridge body." The context of that quote was the Phangan police chief being asked what evidence they (the Phangan local police) could provide for re-examination, they didn't have those DNA samples (taken at the crime scene) because they had been sent out, furthermore the post-mortem was done in Bangkok so any and all DNA evidence collected there (in particular the one from inside the victim) had nothing to do with what the Phangan police chief said so either way the preposition that DNA from Witheridge is lost is a non-starter. But wait, it gets better than that, the only quote I've seen from Pol Lt-General Decha Butrnampetch is: "Much of the defence’s case revolves around a bid to retest key forensic evidence, including DNA on cigarettes and a condom found near the crime scene as well as DNA swabs taken from the victims’ bodies. “The DNA on the cigarettes is all finished,” the head of police on the nearby island of Koh Pha Ngan told the defence team outside the courtroom on Koh Samui on Thursday." Which again it's a moot point because the cigarette butts were not used as evidence against the two Burmese anyway. So what again is the problem here? That evidence that was not used against the Burmese supposedly can't be contested? To mix metaphors, this is nothing but clutching at windmills. In a similar vein, the confessions and everything surrounding that weren't either. In other words, everything they have contested about was irrelevant to the trial and played no part in it. That stuffed those interfering HR organisations as they kept on bleating about, torture, plastic bags, beatings, lighters, gasoline etc: just like they do at every opportunity they can find to make them look and feel useful. If they thought that Bin Laden was being persecuted - there they would be, jumping to his defence!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AleG Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) Activist group Anonymous joins protest against convictions of men for David Miller's death http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2015-12-30/activist-group-anonymous-joins-protest-against-convictions-of-men-for-david-millers-death/ That was started and is being organized by the same man that has run the MWRN fundraisers. So not so anonymous. Edited December 30, 2015 by AleG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCruncher Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Activist group Anonymous joins protest against convictions of men for David Miller's death http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2015-12-30/activist-group-anonymous-joins-protest-against-convictions-of-men-for-david-millers-death/Thats interesting they would be capable at getting to the bottom of something like this from what i have read about them. To me it would be interesting if you could share with us a few of their ACHIEVEMENTS that you have read about, not just their announcements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthEnergiser Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Activist group Anonymous joins protest against convictions of men for David Miller's death http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2015-12-30/activist-group-anonymous-joins-protest-against-convictions-of-men-for-david-millers-death/Thats interesting they would be capable at getting to the bottom of something like this from what i have read about them. To me it would be interesting if you could share with us a few of their ACHIEVEMENTS that you have read about, not just their announcements. Ask them yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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