Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[NCFC]

Extract from Miller statement. 'It is our opinion that the evidence against Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo is overwhelming.'

My question is what overwhelming evidence (from a legal perspective) is there to support their opinion that the B2 killed David Miller? Any of the B2's DNA on any murder weapon or on DM's body? No. Excuse me?

Oh yes, they were in the vicinity of the crime scene at some point that night. They must have killed him. That's overwhelming enough to pass beyond reasonable doubt. Total B/S and a charade from start to finish.

Adding to that - wasn't it also reported that police/forensics were unable to take DNA from David's body because there was too much blood on it? Not been able to work that one out either. His body was not covered in blood. DNA of the killers would have been on David's body. Why wasn't it tested?

David was dragged into the sea and left to drown. The killers DNA washed off.

[Nigeone]

It's sad but we all could go on and on trying to work out this verdict and how it was arrived at...It says a lot for people in here that although so many are angry also most are just dumbfounded...Really what's happened is a new low in Thai justice and there is no explanation except one word......Money......This hasn't been about finding the B2 guilty or not or finding who did do it but about making sure the real murderers didn't get arrested and charged... The B 2 haven't done this crime of that I'm sure and sadly because of money the real perpetrators are still out there and probably laughing... I cannot and will never understand the Miller family statement and while I can understand that money has changed hands in making sure the murderers were not arrested I can't work out the motive for that statement...It quite honestly is not in any way a true account of the prosecution case or the arrival of the verdict. Very sad and inexcusable and worries me that it seemed a prepared statement and very defensive towards the justice system and RTP. The RTP are corrupt from top to bottom and this case has shown them up for what most people in Thailand know them to be...The fight will go on I'm sure as only speaking for Brits but they sure don't like wrongdoing of this sort of scale...The next few weeks and months are going to be interesting I'm sure of that...This isn't over !!

[catsanddogs]

Probably one of the biggest travesties of so-called Thai justice in the decade. A 'cut and dried' verdict from the very moment the original investigating Police officer was removed as he was pointing in a different direction than the 2B patsies. Just proves that if you are a member of a wealthy Thai family you can get away with murder.

That meme has no basis on reality, it's been debunked over and over again, and then the people that cling to that and other demonstrably false "facts" look bewildered as how could it be that the two Burmese were found guilty.

Photo of one the murderers in line to have DNA samples taken over a week before Panya Mamen was promoted:

1898192_710568065687588_4671542267254917225_n.jpg

Incidentally the defense claims that never happened.

Photo of one the murderers in line to have DNA samples taken over a week before Panya Mamen was promoted:

Why wasn't that 'murderer' arrested at that time then? Why did the tests become positive only after the Burmese men were held at the safe house - which turned out, I believe, to be a room at the Ocean View hotel where Hannah and David were staying.

[greenchair]

The phone. Why did they have the victims phone.

[Nigeone]

The phone. Why did they have the victims phone.

To be honest mate I've followed this case and couldn't ascertain what phone and who it belonged too kept on getting mentioned..For sure the early phone produced by the RTP wasn't the same as the later one produced..Someone on here will be able to explain but the phone business was certainly not clear..Mind you that same statement would apply to the whole case..

Edited December 26, 2015 by Nigeone

[NCFC]

For all u non believers, watch bbc and see the brother and family make a statement, nothing but praise for the justice system, they have been there for many months, visiting the ocurts, not you keyboard warriors that want to knock Thailand at every opportunity. the burmese guys had top lawyers paid for by an activist group, how pathetic, activisits are idiots.

here we go, the troll is back !

are you saying family did not say they are happy with verdict or did not spend months with police both Thai and British or Burmese did not have top lawyers dont just knock this report say where its wrong

You forgot a very important aspect...........the verdict was bought and paid for long before the end of the trial so no matter what the family believed or how many "top lawyers" there were in attendance the guilty verdict was the "face saving", bought and paid for outcome.

When you approach this from two different perspectives you can see why a great majority of the posters here support the innocence of the B2, and yet just a few others support the guilty verdict, let me explain...........

Those who believe that the B2 are innocent are judging this on how such a case would be presented in a first-world country with a justice system which although not perfect, has, by and large, stood the test of time. They, like me, believe that the fact that the crime scene was contaminated, that the police collecting the evidence were not trained to do so, that crucial evidence has gone missing, that important CCTV footage was never viewed, that the supposed murder weapon was shown as two different hoes, that the wounds in David's head did not match the murder weapon...............and so much more.

All of the above and other aspects of the case would have ensured that in a first-world country the case would have been thrown out a long time ago.

Now consider the other perspective; the supporters of the guilty verdict are looking at it from their viewpoint, accepting that Thailand is a Third World country and is known for its corruption, human trafficking and other human rights violations, that the BIB have been proven to be corrupt time and time again as have many people in power, that money can buy absolutely ANYTHING (lives included), that saving face is more important than anything else............and so on, so you get the picture.

So they either accept the verdict because of the above, or because they refuse to believe that any of the points in the last paragraph actually do exist. In both cases I believe they are morally bankrupt.

And you can judge the intelligence level of one of them who posted something along the lines of, "wow, they are innocent because the date/time was incorrect" in a sarcastic remark relating to the huge discrepancies in DNA testing procedures, when that discrepancy alone would have ensured that evidence was considered "null and void" in any legal system apart from one in which the verdict was bought beforehand.

You assume that the police, and I suppose, the prosecution and the judges, were paid off but offer no proof that it happened. The defence supplied no evidence that anyone was paid off. It is an assumption made because, this is Thailand.

For sure investigation standards were not up to western standards but that doesnt mean that criminals are not guilty simply because western procedures have not been followed. Posters who believe that are behaving in an arrogant manner more befitting a 19th century colonial attitude.

There seems to be a wholesale denial that B2 semen was found inside Hannah's body. Some posters even claiming that the police made the B2 produce semen samples which they then planted in the victim. Well even the defence didn't try to present such a ridiculous defence. In fact the defence didn't even challenge the semen evidence in court at all

We know western standards were not adhered to but it is up to the defence to challenge, and they didn't, even though they had a foreign expert on hand.

I don't have an opinion on whether the B2 were guilty or not because I haven't and won't see all the evidence. But if the defence can't challenge the core evidence of semen in the victim's body then the balance of suspicion falls onto the B2 in my mind.

I know the supporters of the B2 will say that the DNA evidence is inadmissible because of procedural handling but the defence team didn't successfully challenge that supposition.

And for those who think the result was a foregone conclusion because, well this is Thailand, that is not proof that would stand up in court, either. You can't argue that standards of proof for DNA are unsatisfactory but equal standards of proof of corruption are not necessary because we all know what happens in Thailand.

[smedly]

Look, the Millar family have every right to say what they did, most of us may not agree with their opinion but they are entitled to have one. They have no more information than anyone here, but it must be understood that they are just an ordinary family, they are not lawyers or police, they have no experience of such things as courts - police procedures - evidence - DNA etc, they listened to and believed what they were told by Thai police and prosecutors, it is easy to see how they would accept that without question - that is what they are used to in the UK - police actually trying to solve a crime and put the right people in jail with no agenda other than pride and a sense of achievement , perhaps in time they may see the folly but for now it is what it is.

However what is rather disgusting is how the Thai authorities have used their statement to somehow endorse this verdict in the media, well the Millar family believe so it must be true, this is total nonsense and quite frankly disgraceful

The Millar family were told the DNA was a match, I would also have believed if the Thai police could have produced the evidence (original samples) and they stood up to verification and retest, but they could not do that, what's even worse is that these samples would have been plentiful and yet they claim they were used up, sorry but that is total nonsense, there should be numerous samples available taken at the crime scene and autopsy, these samples would have been huge in DNA terms, - The court stated they based their conviction on this DNA match, in the west this evidence would not have been allowed for various reasons but primarily because the evidence could not be produced to the court.

The prosecution did offer the defence samples of "processed" DNA that they claim was from the victim, this was turned down simply because there was no way to prove where these "already processed" samples originated - they could simply have been from the accused saliva - what would be the point of retesting such a sample - it would not verify or prove anything

We also have a UK coroner report stating that there was no evidence of a rape on Hannah's body, this is significant because it does two things.

1. The motive for these murders was not rape

2. The claim of DNA in Hannah's body (sperm from the accused) did not exist

Also the fact that the victims clothes were not examined for DNA - the sort of evidence that could be verified if claimed

Two phones were found, one at the crime scene and another at the residence of the accused, the phone found at the crime scene was displayed several times on TV footage, the police have never confirmed who owned this phone, at first they believed it belonged to Hannah but then retracted that when a friend produced Hannah's phone, then they find a phone at the residence of the accused and suddenly claim this was David's phone and ask the family the verify an EMEI number of "A" phone - what happened the other phone ?

Then we have the crime scene and the placement of the Hoe, how did Mon know that the Hoe was moved ? - who had it ? and why he told the gardener to return it to a specific location.

The injuries on David's body which should be revealed in the UK autopsy report once released - several small deep cuts about the size of a "shark tooth" on various locations, how did they happen ? as yet unexplained

As we all know there is more - a lot more, but these are key points for me

I would also say that the defence team did not do enough, putting the accused on the stand was a waste of 2 days, the fact that their forensic expert was not allowed to take the stand was also shocking to say the least but then at that point the prosecution had not submitted anything so in reality there was no evidence to cross examine - that very same "no evidence" the court based their convicted on

[catsanddogs]

Extract from Miller statement. 'It is our opinion that the evidence against Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo is overwhelming.'

My question is what overwhelming evidence (from a legal perspective) is there to support their opinion that the B2 killed David Miller? Any of the B2's DNA on any murder weapon or on DM's body? No. Excuse me?

Oh yes, they were in the vicinity of the crime scene at some point that night. They must have killed him. That's overwhelming enough to pass beyond reasonable doubt. Total B/S and a charade from start to finish.

Adding to that - wasn't it also reported that police/forensics were unable to take DNA from David's body because there was too much blood on it? Not been able to work that one out either. His body was not covered in blood. DNA of the killers would have been on David's body. Why wasn't it tested?

David was dragged into the sea and left to drown. The killers DNA washed off.

Police said David had too much blood on him to take DNA tests.

[smedly]

are you saying family did not say they are happy with verdict or did not spend months with police both Thai and British or Burmese did not have top lawyers dont just knock this report say where its wrong

You forgot a very important aspect...........the verdict was bought and paid for long before the end of the trial so no matter what the family believed or how many "top lawyers" there were in attendance the guilty verdict was the "face saving", bought and paid for outcome.

When you approach this from two different perspectives you can see why a great majority of the posters here support the innocence of the B2, and yet just a few others support the guilty verdict, let me explain...........

Those who believe that the B2 are innocent are judging this on how such a case would be presented in a first-world country with a justice system which although not perfect, has, by and large, stood the test of time. They, like me, believe that the fact that the crime scene was contaminated, that the police collecting the evidence were not trained to do so, that crucial evidence has gone missing, that important CCTV footage was never viewed, that the supposed murder weapon was shown as two different hoes, that the wounds in David's head did not match the murder weapon...............and so much more.

All of the above and other aspects of the case would have ensured that in a first-world country the case would have been thrown out a long time ago.

Now consider the other perspective; the supporters of the guilty verdict are looking at it from their viewpoint, accepting that Thailand is a Third World country and is known for its corruption, human trafficking and other human rights violations, that the BIB have been proven to be corrupt time and time again as have many people in power, that money can buy absolutely ANYTHING (lives included), that saving face is more important than anything else............and so on, so you get the picture.

So they either accept the verdict because of the above, or because they refuse to believe that any of the points in the last paragraph actually do exist. In both cases I believe they are morally bankrupt.

And you can judge the intelligence level of one of them who posted something along the lines of, "wow, they are innocent because the date/time was incorrect" in a sarcastic remark relating to the huge discrepancies in DNA testing procedures, when that discrepancy alone would have ensured that evidence was considered "null and void" in any legal system apart from one in which the verdict was bought beforehand.

You assume that the police, and I suppose, the prosecution and the judges, were paid off but offer no proof that it happened. The defence supplied no evidence that anyone was paid off. It is an assumption made because, this is Thailand.

For sure investigation standards were not up to western standards but that doesnt mean that criminals are not guilty simply because western procedures have not been followed. Posters who believe that are behaving in an arrogant manner more befitting a 19th century colonial attitude.

There seems to be a wholesale denial that B2 semen was found inside Hannah's body. Some posters even claiming that the police made the B2 produce semen samples which they then planted in the victim. Well even the defence didn't try to present such a ridiculous defence. In fact the defence didn't even challenge the semen evidence in court at all

We know western standards were not adhered to but it is up to the defence to challenge, and they didn't, even though they had a foreign expert on hand.

I don't have an opinion on whether the B2 were guilty or not because I haven't and won't see all the evidence. But if the defence can't challenge the core evidence of semen in the victim's body then the balance of suspicion falls onto the B2 in my mind.

I know the supporters of the B2 will say that the DNA evidence is inadmissible because of procedural handling but the defence team didn't successfully challenge that supposition.

And for those who think the result was a foregone conclusion because, well this is Thailand, that is not proof that would stand up in court, either. You can't argue that standards of proof for DNA are unsatisfactory but equal standards of proof of corruption are not necessary because we all know what happens in Thailand.

this is not about western standards, it is about recognised global standards and to a point common sense and understanding the science. The recognised forensic institute of Thailand operate to global standards but were not allowed to be involved in this investigation - go figure

[Briggsy]

The Miller family have been expertly manipulated by the Thai police.

It wouldn't be hard. They come from Jersey, a small island. They are decent, law-abiding people. They are conditioned to put their trust in authority. They can't speak Thai. Their interpreted information will come from police sources. Thais can be charming, flattering and sycophantic in the extreme if required. The Miller family have been under unimaginable stress and grief.

[catsanddogs]

Look, the Millar family have every right to say what they did, most of us may not agree with their opinion but they are entitled to have one. They have no more information than anyone here, but it must be understood that they are just an ordinary family, they are not lawyers or police, they have no experience of such things as courts - police procedures - evidence - DNA etc, they listened to and believed what they were told by Thai police and prosecutors, it is easy to see how they would accept that without question - that is what they are used to in the UK - police actually trying to solve a crime and put the right people in jail with no agenda other than pride and a sense of achievement , perhaps in time they may see the folly but for now it is what it is.

However what is rather disgusting is how the Thai authorities have used their statement to somehow endorse this verdict in the media, well the Millar family believe so it must be true, this is total nonsense and quite frankly disgraceful

The Millar family were told the DNA was a match, I would also have believed if the Thai police could have produced the evidence (original samples) and they stood up to verification and retest, but they could not do that, what's even worse is that these samples would have been plentiful and yet they claim they were used up, sorry but that is total nonsense, there should be numerous samples available taken at the crime scene and autopsy, these samples would have been huge in DNA terms, - The court stated they based their conviction on this DNA match, in the west this evidence would not have been allowed for various reasons but primarily because the evidence could not be produced to the court.

The prosecution did offer the defence samples of "processed" DNA that they claim was from the victim, this was turned down simply because there was no way to prove where these "already processed" samples originated - they could simply have been from the accused saliva - what would be the point of retesting such a sample - it would not verify or prove anything

We also have a UK coroner report stating that there was no evidence of a rape on Hannah's body, this is significant because it does two things.

1. The motive for these murders was not rape

2. The claim of DNA in Hannah's body (sperm from the accused) did not exist

Also the fact that the victims clothes were not examined for DNA - the sort of evidence that could be verified if claimed

Two phones were found, one at the crime scene and another at the residence of the accused, the phone found at the crime scene was displayed several times on TV footage, the police have never confirmed who owned this phone, at first they believed it belonged to Hannah but then retracted that when a friend produced Hannah's phone, then they find a phone at the residence of the accused and suddenly claim this was David's phone and ask the family the verify an EMEI number of "A" phone - what happened the other phone ?

Then we have the crime scene and the placement of the Hoe, how did Mon know that the Hoe was moved ? - who had it ? and why he told the gardener to return it to a specific location.

The injuries on David's body which should be revealed in the UK autopsy report once released - several small deep cuts about the size of a "shark tooth" on various locations, how did they happen ? as yet unexplained

As we all know there is more - a lot more, but these are key points for me

I would also say that the defence team did not do enough, putting the accused on the stand was a waste of 2 days, the fact that their forensic expert was not allowed to take the stand was also shocking to say the least but then at that point the prosecution had not submitted anything so in reality there was no evidence to cross examine - that very same "no evidence" the court based their convicted on

Great post. Agree with last para totally.

[NCFC]

are you saying family did not say they are happy with verdict or did not spend months with police both Thai and British or Burmese did not have top lawyers dont just knock this report say where its wrong

You forgot a very important aspect...........the verdict was bought and paid for long before the end of the trial so no matter what the family believed or how many "top lawyers" there were in attendance the guilty verdict was the "face saving", bought and paid for outcome.

When you approach this from two different perspectives you can see why a great majority of the posters here support the innocence of the B2, and yet just a few others support the guilty verdict, let me explain...........

Those who believe that the B2 are innocent are judging this on how such a case would be presented in a first-world country with a justice system which although not perfect, has, by and large, stood the test of time. They, like me, believe that the fact that the crime scene was contaminated, that the police collecting the evidence were not trained to do so, that crucial evidence has gone missing, that important CCTV footage was never viewed, that the supposed murder weapon was shown as two different hoes, that the wounds in David's head did not match the murder weapon...............and so much more.

All of the above and other aspects of the case would have ensured that in a first-world country the case would have been thrown out a long time ago.

Now consider the other perspective; the supporters of the guilty verdict are looking at it from their viewpoint, accepting that Thailand is a Third World country and is known for its corruption, human trafficking and other human rights violations, that the BIB have been proven to be corrupt time and time again as have many people in power, that money can buy absolutely ANYTHING (lives included), that saving face is more important than anything else............and so on, so you get the picture.

So they either accept the verdict because of the above, or because they refuse to believe that any of the points in the last paragraph actually do exist. In both cases I believe they are morally bankrupt.

And you can judge the intelligence level of one of them who posted something along the lines of, "wow, they are innocent because the date/time was incorrect" in a sarcastic remark relating to the huge discrepancies in DNA testing procedures, when that discrepancy alone would have ensured that evidence was considered "null and void" in any legal system apart from one in which the verdict was bought beforehand.

You assume that the police, and I suppose, the prosecution and the judges, were paid off but offer no proof that it happened. The defence supplied no evidence that anyone was paid off. It is an assumption made because, this is Thailand.

For sure investigation standards were not up to western standards but that doesnt mean that criminals are not guilty simply because western procedures have not been followed. Posters who believe that are behaving in an arrogant manner more befitting a 19th century colonial attitude.

There seems to be a wholesale denial that B2 semen was found inside Hannah's body. Some posters even claiming that the police made the B2 produce semen samples which they then planted in the victim. Well even the defence didn't try to present such a ridiculous defence. In fact the defence didn't even challenge the semen evidence in court at all

We know western standards were not adhered to but it is up to the defence to challenge, and they didn't, even though they had a foreign expert on hand.

I don't have an opinion on whether the B2 were guilty or not because I haven't and won't see all the evidence. But if the defence can't challenge the core evidence of semen in the victim's body then the balance of suspicion falls onto the B2 in my mind.

I know the supporters of the B2 will say that the DNA evidence is inadmissible because of procedural handling but the defence team didn't successfully challenge that supposition.

And for those who think the result was a foregone conclusion because, well this is Thailand, that is not proof that would stand up in court, either. You can't argue that standards of proof for DNA are unsatisfactory but equal standards of proof of corruption are not necessary because we all know what happens in Thailand.

this is not about western standards, it is about recognised global standards and to a point common sense and understanding the science. The recognised forensic institute of Thailand operate to global standards but were not allowed to be involved in this investigation - go figure

No. I have only seen posters discuss standards in their home countries, western countries, compared to Thailand. I've not seen any discussion about standards in cambodia or India, for example. The comparison is always between the west and Thailand. And you will probably never, ever get western standards of proof in any Thai court case.

I agree that if this case was heard in the west it would most likely be thrown out but that is never going to be the case here.

Edited December 26, 2015 by NCFC

[smedly]

The Miller family have been expertly manipulated by the Thai police.

It wouldn't be hard. They come from Jersey, a small island. They are decent, law-abiding people. They are conditioned to put their trust in authority. They can't speak Thai. Their interpreted information will come from police sources. Thais can be charming, flattering and sycophantic in the extreme if required. The Miller family have been under unimaginable stress and grief.

exactly and very well presented

[metisdead]

Off topic nonsense posts and replies have been removed. A post containing content from a Facebook site has been removed as well as the replies as that site is not a credible source of information.

[glenmohr]

It's sad but we all could go on and on trying to work out this verdict and how it was arrived at...It says a lot for people in here that although so many are angry also most are just dumbfounded...Really what's happened is a new low in Thai justice and there is no explanation except one word......Money......This hasn't been about finding the B2 guilty or not or finding who did do it but about making sure the real murderers didn't get arrested and charged... The B 2 haven't done this crime of that I'm sure and sadly because of money the real perpetrators are still out there and probably laughing... I cannot and will never understand the Miller family statement and while I can understand that money has changed hands in making sure the murderers were not arrested I can't work out the motive for that statement...It quite honestly is not in any way a true account of the prosecution case or the arrival of the verdict. Very sad and inexcusable and worries me that it seemed a prepared statement and very defensive towards the justice system and RTP. The RTP are corrupt from top to bottom and this case has shown them up for what most people in Thailand know them to be...The fight will go on I'm sure as only speaking for Brits but they sure don't like wrongdoing of this sort of scale...The next few weeks and months are going to be interesting I'm sure of that...This isn't over !!

What has seldom been touched on Nige is the role of the British authorities in all of this.

Another poster has suggested that the Miller family statement was composed by the British Foreign Office.

There is a theory that the Thai police have been previously helpful in locating British criminals who have been located in Thailand. British authorities may want that arrangement to continue going forward.

Whatever, there are some very big players in this horrible saga.

Good to see a large protest occurred in Yangon yesterday and that the Burmese Amabassador has been very busy with his Thai counterparts over the last 24 hours, a real rift between Myanmar and Thailand might develop.

So sad that the Burmese may be sacrificed for the " bigger picture"

I am feeling that the British authorities have been complicit in the sorry state of affairs. The British authorities may wish to see the Burmese go down to preserve their existing relationship with the RTP.

[Nigeone]

Extract from Miller statement. 'It is our opinion that the evidence against Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo is overwhelming.'

My question is what overwhelming evidence (from a legal perspective) is there to support their opinion that the B2 killed David Miller? Any of the B2's DNA on any murder weapon or on DM's body? No. Excuse me?

Oh yes, they were in the vicinity of the crime scene at some point that night. They must have killed him. That's overwhelming enough to pass beyond reasonable doubt. Total B/S and a charade from start to finish.

Adding to that - wasn't it also reported that police/forensics were unable to take DNA from David's body because there was too much blood on it? Not been able to work that one out either. His body was not covered in blood. DNA of the killers would have been on David's body. Why wasn't it tested?

David was dragged into the sea and left to drown. The killers DNA washed off.

Mm so why didn't the said blood not wash off as well..The blood that allegedly prevented the Police from taking the DNA... The pictures I saw there was no blood as you would expect as he was in the water..but the police said there was...

[happy Joe]

Latest from Andy Hall is that the defence's case will be heard by Region 8 Appeals court (Surat Thani) and the outcome likely from October 2016. Koh Samui is in the Surat Thani province, and I have little doubt that they would agree with the verdict made by their legal colleagues.

In which case, the defence will present it to the Supreme court - and by then we could be looking at late 2017 for the outcome. By then, war in Syria would have taken precedence.

Maybe time to close the thread until then? All this misguided armchair speculation might be titillating for some, but is distasteful and doesn't help anyone.

Totally agree with you Brewsterbudgen, coarse and repeated speculations of armchair detectives carry on our foreheads an undeserved shame.

- First they insulted the police

- Then they insulted and accused a businessman of the island.

- After they challenged and insulted the judges

- Now they insult the Miller family simply because it does not share their ragots.

I pray that Thais do not make the mistake of thinking that we are all also definitely bounded.

For me this is the first time in my life that I follow a criminal case and confronted me with various facts lovers I regarded as the dregs of society. I can say here that this will be the last.

[Jonathan Fairfield]

Koh Tao Murders: Court Says DNA Trumps Other Flaws in Case

Sue Miller holds photograph of her son, David Miller, during a Dec. 24 news conference at Samui courthouse.

By Teeranai Charuvastra

Staff Reporter

SAMUI – Although it accepts that the case against the two Myanmar men - found guilty of killing two British tourists in southern Thailand last year - was not without flaws, the court said yesterday that DNA samples collected from the crime scene are so incontrovertible, that they justify a conviction.

The flaws include lack of chain of custody in evidence, arrest and interrogation of the two suspects without charge or legal representation and a lack of any witness who saw the two defendants committing the crimes.

Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, both 22, were found guilty Thursday of killing British backpackers David Miller and Hannah Witheridge on Koh Tao on Sept. 15, 2014. The two men were also convicted of raping Witheridge before killing her. Both victims died in the early hours of Sept. 15.

For their alleged crimes, the court on Samui island yesterday morning sentenced both defendants to death – the highest penalty for premeditated murder.

Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, who worked as bar workers on Koh Tao, were arrested on Oct. 1 2014 and brought to a police “safehouse” on Koh Tao for interrogation. They were not formally charged until Oct. 3 2014.

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042373

-- Khaosod English 2015-12-26

[Jonathan Fairfield]

Koh Tao Murders: Rights Group Demands Fresh Investigation Into Torture Claims

Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo at samui courthouse yesterday

By Teeranai Charuvastra

Staff Reporter

BANGKOK - Amnesty International today issued a statement calling for an independent inquiry to determine whether the two Myanmar men, recently convicted of murder, were tortured into making a false confession as the defendants allege.

The international watchdog group said it feared that the two defendants, Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, might have been among the victims of ill treatment by the Thai police force, which is notorious for a long history of using force to extract false confessions.

The two men initially confessed that they were responsible for the Sept. 15, 2014, killings of British backpackers David Miller and Hannah Witheridge in southern Thailand, but the pair later retracted the confession, saying that they were beaten and coerced by local police to admit guilt against their will. The two suspects were also accused of raping Witheridge.

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042817

-- Khaosod English 2015-12-26

[Nigeone]

The Miller family have been expertly manipulated by the Thai police.

It wouldn't be hard. They come from Jersey, a small island. They are decent, law-abiding people. They are conditioned to put their trust in authority. They can't speak Thai. Their interpreted information will come from police sources. Thais can be charming, flattering and sycophantic in the extreme if required. The Miller family have been under unimaginable stress and grief.

exactly and very well presented

You post very well and I always respect your professional thoughts on this case but my personal opinion is that statement went over and beyond what you would expect from persons in that situation..I cannot understand how you would feel standing there after the judgement but it seemed to me it went over board to absolve the RTP of any incompetence or failures. I'm sorry but that just doesn't ring true.. I really don't know what I think about the possible compliance of the Embassy etc but just something doesn't sit right in the tone of that statement...It was very assertive in tone and while I accept they will have been fed a watered down version of the true happenings it still doesn't sit right.. As I said I understand your logic and I agree they have more than a right to say what they want but just something really doesn't feel right about the content and tone of it...My opinion for what it's worth Smedly and I so respect yours...

[Artisi]

Latest from Andy Hall is that the defence's case will be heard by Region 8 Appeals court (Surat Thani) and the outcome likely from October 2016. Koh Samui is in the Surat Thani province, and I have little doubt that they would agree with the verdict made by their legal colleagues.

In which case, the defence will present it to the Supreme court - and by then we could be looking at late 2017 for the outcome. By then, war in Syria would have taken precedence.

Maybe time to close the thread until then? All this misguided armchair speculation might be titillating for some, but is distasteful and doesn't help anyone.

Totally agree with you Brewsterbudgen, coarse and repeated speculations of armchair detectives carry on our foreheads an undeserved shame.

- First they insulted the police

- Then they insulted and accused a businessman of the island.

- After they challenged and insulted the judges

- Now they insult the Miller family simply because it does not share their ragots.

I pray that Thais do not make the mistake of thinking that we are all also definitely bounded.

For me this is the first time in my life that I follow a criminal case and confronted me with various facts lovers I regarded as the dregs of society. I can say here that this will be the last.

Have you ever considered for one minute other than what appears as your own limited views that some of the comments against police, business people, residents, and to a certain point the judges might be well placed. As for the Miller family I agree what they shouldn't be brought into it, even though I found their comments to be contrived and argueable.

[Nigeone]

Latest from Andy Hall is that the defence's case will be heard by Region 8 Appeals court (Surat Thani) and the outcome likely from October 2016. Koh Samui is in the Surat Thani province, and I have little doubt that they would agree with the verdict made by their legal colleagues.

In which case, the defence will present it to the Supreme court - and by then we could be looking at late 2017 for the outcome. By then, war in Syria would have taken precedence.

Maybe time to close the thread until then? All this misguided armchair speculation might be titillating for some, but is distasteful and doesn't help anyone.

Totally agree with you Brewsterbudgen, coarse and repeated speculations of armchair detectives carry on our foreheads an undeserved shame.

- First they insulted the police

- Then they insulted and accused a businessman of the island.

- After they challenged and insulted the judges

- Now they insult the Miller family simply because it does not share their ragots.

I pray that Thais do not make the mistake of thinking that we are all also definitely bounded.

For me this is the first time in my life that I follow a criminal case and confronted me with various facts lovers I regarded as the dregs of society. I can say here that this will be the last.

Interesting post in reply !! And not worth a reply as what you have written is not factually correct...

I won't miss your contributions though..not sure anyone else will either...Happy Xmas...

Edited December 26, 2015 by Nigeone

[amerasianex]

You can forget about reasonable doubt. There is no jury. And if there was it would be all Thais and they would still ne found guilty

One thing that is present and undeniable in in Thailand is Thais are Patriots. Absent in most western countries. In the regard they tend to stick together. The chance of any acquittal as miniscule at best...I dont think Thais really know what the letters DNA stand for

[z42]

Koh Tao Murders: Court Says DNA Trumps Other Flaws in Case

Sue Miller holds photograph of her son, David Miller, during a Dec. 24 news conference at Samui courthouse.

By Teeranai Charuvastra

Staff Reporter

SAMUI Although it accepts that the case against the two Myanmar men - found guilty of killing two British tourists in southern Thailand last year - was not without flaws, the court said yesterday that DNA samples collected from the crime scene are so incontrovertible, that they justify a conviction.

The flaws include lack of chain of custody in evidence, arrest and interrogation of the two suspects without charge or legal representation and a lack of any witness who saw the two defendants committing the crimes.

Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, both 22, were found guilty Thursday of killing British backpackers David Miller and Hannah Witheridge on Koh Tao on Sept. 15, 2014. The two men were also convicted of raping Witheridge before killing her. Both victims died in the early hours of Sept. 15.

For their alleged crimes, the court on Samui island yesterday morning sentenced both defendants to death the highest penalty for premeditated murder.

Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, who worked as bar workers on Koh Tao, were arrested on Oct. 1 2014 and brought to a police safehouse on Koh Tao for interrogation. They were not formally charged until Oct. 3 2014.

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042373

-- Khaosod English 2015-12-26

More delusion. A DNA sample without appropriate chains of custody, and that is processed by people unqualified to do so to international standards makes it absolutely worthless.

So on the contrary all the other items listed as being substandard simply compound the use of illegitimate DNA results as being tantamount to an at best, flimsy case file.

The court is being incredibly foolish because they are attempting to deceive people who in most cases can research exactly what the required standards are.

They are trying to polish a turd and only really succeeding in damaging any tiny shred of credibility they may have left

[Bluespunk]

You forgot a very important aspect...........the verdict was bought and paid for long before the end of the trial so no matter what the family believed or how many "top lawyers" there were in attendance the guilty verdict was the "face saving", bought and paid for outcome.

When you approach this from two different perspectives you can see why a great majority of the posters here support the innocence of the B2, and yet just a few others support the guilty verdict, let me explain...........

Those who believe that the B2 are innocent are judging this on how such a case would be presented in a first-world country with a justice system which although not perfect, has, by and large, stood the test of time. They, like me, believe that the fact that the crime scene was contaminated, that the police collecting the evidence were not trained to do so, that crucial evidence has gone missing, that important CCTV footage was never viewed, that the supposed murder weapon was shown as two different hoes, that the wounds in David's head did not match the murder weapon...............and so much more.

All of the above and other aspects of the case would have ensured that in a first-world country the case would have been thrown out a long time ago.

Now consider the other perspective; the supporters of the guilty verdict are looking at it from their viewpoint, accepting that Thailand is a Third World country and is known for its corruption, human trafficking and other human rights violations, that the BIB have been proven to be corrupt time and time again as have many people in power, that money can buy absolutely ANYTHING (lives included), that saving face is more important than anything else............and so on, so you get the picture.

So they either accept the verdict because of the above, or because they refuse to believe that any of the points in the last paragraph actually do exist. In both cases I believe they are morally bankrupt.

And you can judge the intelligence level of one of them who posted something along the lines of, "wow, they are innocent because the date/time was incorrect" in a sarcastic remark relating to the huge discrepancies in DNA testing procedures, when that discrepancy alone would have ensured that evidence was considered "null and void" in any legal system apart from one in which the verdict was bought beforehand.

You assume that the police, and I suppose, the prosecution and the judges, were paid off but offer no proof that it happened. The defence supplied no evidence that anyone was paid off. It is an assumption made because, this is Thailand.

For sure investigation standards were not up to western standards but that doesnt mean that criminals are not guilty simply because western procedures have not been followed. Posters who believe that are behaving in an arrogant manner more befitting a 19th century colonial attitude.

There seems to be a wholesale denial that B2 semen was found inside Hannah's body. Some posters even claiming that the police made the B2 produce semen samples which they then planted in the victim. Well even the defence didn't try to present such a ridiculous defence. In fact the defence didn't even challenge the semen evidence in court at all

We know western standards were not adhered to but it is up to the defence to challenge, and they didn't, even though they had a foreign expert on hand.

I don't have an opinion on whether the B2 were guilty or not because I haven't and won't see all the evidence. But if the defence can't challenge the core evidence of semen in the victim's body then the balance of suspicion falls onto the B2 in my mind.

I know the supporters of the B2 will say that the DNA evidence is inadmissible because of procedural handling but the defence team didn't successfully challenge that supposition.

And for those who think the result was a foregone conclusion because, well this is Thailand, that is not proof that would stand up in court, either. You can't argue that standards of proof for DNA are unsatisfactory but equal standards of proof of corruption are not necessary because we all know what happens in Thailand.

Their argument boils down to "The must be innocent because I am prejudiced against Thailand", it holds no weight.

Nonsense.

[Ace of Pop]

Why is the Brother happy with the Verdict then..?.

[Aj Mick]

Latest from Andy Hall is that the defence's case will be heard by Region 8 Appeals court (Surat Thani) and the outcome likely from October 2016. Koh Samui is in the Surat Thani province, and I have little doubt that they would agree with the verdict made by their legal colleagues.

In which case, the defence will present it to the Supreme court - and by then we could be looking at late 2017 for the outcome. By then, war in Syria would have taken precedence.

Maybe time to close the thread until then? All this misguided armchair speculation might be titillating for some, but is distasteful and doesn't help anyone.

Totally agree with you Brewsterbudgen, coarse and repeated speculations of armchair detectives carry on our foreheads an undeserved shame.

- First they insulted the police

- Then they insulted and accused a businessman of the island.

- After they challenged and insulted the judges

- Now they insult the Miller family simply because it does not share their ragots.

I pray that Thais do not make the mistake of thinking that we are all also definitely bounded.

For me this is the first time in my life that I follow a criminal case and confronted me with various facts lovers I regarded as the dregs of society. I can say here that this will be the last.

All deserving of insult in this travesty of justice. Being a police officer, a businessman, a judge, or related to a crime victim does not automatically make someone worthy of the respect some seem to think they deserve. Cream floats; so does scum.

[Aj Mick]

Why is the Brother happy with the Verdict then..?.

Because he wants to believe a pack of lies and has found closure from them.

[Bluespunk]

Latest from Andy Hall is that the defence's case will be heard by Region 8 Appeals court (Surat Thani) and the outcome likely from October 2016. Koh Samui is in the Surat Thani province, and I have little doubt that they would agree with the verdict made by their legal colleagues.

In which case, the defence will present it to the Supreme court - and by then we could be looking at late 2017 for the outcome. By then, war in Syria would have taken precedence.

Maybe time to close the thread until then? All this misguided armchair speculation might be titillating for some, but is distasteful and doesn't help anyone.

Totally agree with you Brewsterbudgen, coarse and repeated speculations of armchair detectives carry on our foreheads an undeserved shame.

- First they insulted the police

- Then they insulted and accused a businessman of the island.

- After they challenged and insulted the judges

- Now they insult the Miller family simply because it does not share their ragots.

I pray that Thais do not make the mistake of thinking that we are all also definitely bounded.

For me this is the first time in my life that I follow a criminal case and confronted me with various facts lovers I regarded as the dregs of society. I can say here that this will be the last.

Having read all your comments on this thread I can only say I hope you keep true to that commitment.

[Bluespunk]

You can forget about reasonable doubt. There is no jury. And if there was it would be all Thais and they would still ne found guilty

One thing that is present and undeniable in in Thailand is Thais are Patriots. Absent in most western countries. In the regard they tend to stick together. The chance of any acquittal as miniscule at best...I dont think Thais really know what the letters DNA stand for

Nonsense. Thais would see the flaws in this case as well as anyone else. You are being overtly negative of a nation based on your prejudices.