David Miller's father opposes Koh Tao death sentence

[oldsailor35]

In this day and age, only the most backward and uncivilised countries have the death penalty.

In this day and age, the most forward looking and civilised countries have the death penalty and they should actively promote its use around the world.

You're in good company with Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, savage!

Nottocus does'nt really sound like a North Korean name to me . But then who knows !

[IslandLover]

catsanddogs, on 20 Jan 2016 - 09:22, said:catsanddogs, on 20 Jan 2016 - 09:22, said:

The Millers knew they were supporting the death penalty when they said the evidence was overwhelming. Now they say they don't not want the men to get the death penalty - bit late in my opinion. Should have thought more before Michael Miller read the long prepared statement to the media almost immediately after the verdict was read. The Millers believe that David was hacked from behind and left to drown. Do they also believe that story the police want them to, that Hannah and David were having sex on the beach? That Hannah and David, before getting down to the act, threw their clothes all over the beach far and wide and that Hannah went to the beach in just her knickers/shorts? - her skirt wasn't found. Maybe the Millers just saw the crime scene photos after the police (and other individuals) had some some tidying up and they are convinced that the neat little pile of clothes on the rock was the work of Hannah and David before they got intimate. The Miller's feelings would not be so worrying if it were just one person's beliefs, but this is a whole family of adults seemingly of the same unwavering belief. Cold comfort that they would prefer the men to simply rot in prison for the rest of their lives for a crime they likely didn't commit rather than be put to death.

Not quite true that Hannah's skirt wasn't found, catsanddogs. She was found still wearing her skirt and top, but minus her underwear which was laying on the beach with the other items of clothing, including her pink flip-flops. It was the prosecution in court that couldn't confirm the whereabouts of her skirt and top post crime, or whether it had been tested for DNA. However, this is only a minor detail in an otherwise excellent post. I listened to the whole of Michael Miller's speech (he was reading from a script which was prepared well in advance and just repeated the mantra of the RTP and the prosecution) outside the court house and it was apparent to me that HE supported the death penalty. So what has caused this volte-face? Is it that Mr. Ian Miller has more compassion than his surviving son?

Edited January 20, 2016 by IslandLover

[oldsailor35]

They were obviously not guilty as most people know in Thailand!

You mean most people who think they know everything about everything.

If they are so smart they can judge from behind a keyboard, half whom never get out the house and the other half don't even live in Thailand, then show some evidence who did commit the crime.

Not one of us heard all the evidence but the evidence we did hear was damning.

"We decided to go for swim in the rain and oh my!! on the way home I found her phone" In the dark on the beach? I would believe Billy Liar before these two .

You appear not to know that the original Investigating Police officer named the two murderers, saying that he had all the evidence that he needed from CCTV. You apparently do not know that he was dismissed and another Police officer installed, who declared that there was no CCTV evidence. Thereafter the village headman went into an extremely expensive protection mode as the original two accused were his son and brother. Then of course, the two Burmese (naturally) "patsies" were found and tortured into admission.

Edited January 20, 2016 by oldsailor35

[oldsailor35]

I get the feeling that the Miller family were "fed a story" that convinced them of the B2's guilt...and this was done outside the course of legal process.....now that they are faced with condoning a death penalty on what to the whole world is an unsatisfactory trial, the seeds of doubt have been sewn.

The "whole world" - a tad exaggerating. Do you think many outside Thailand's expat community, some in the UK, and some who follow certain social media sites are interested, informed or particularly bothered?

I suggest the vast majority of the world's population won't even be aware of this case.

Those that followed the investigation subsequent trial will have formed an opinion. But hardly the whole world. And, unlikely to change anything.

The British authorities won't release the information they provided to the breaved families in seems; and now the two families appear to have different views.

The only sure things are that the real truth of all that happened on that fateful night is unlikely to be revealed; and nothing will change as a result of this case.

I live in England, and most people I know are fully aware of this case, it has been widely publicised here.

Yes. Back in mid-September 2014 I personally was made aware of these murders by a friend in the UK who has no connection to Thailand.

Ah! but did they see the court proceedings and evidence, as published on a daily basis, as we did, or did they only see the "juicy bits" selected by the UK media.

[IslandLover]

dabhand, on 19 Jan 2016 - 16:51, said:

Patsycat, on 19 Jan 2016 - 15:08, said:

Odd that Mr Miller has suddenly spoken out after Laura's very truthful and sad facebook post.

I wonder, with all respect - did the Millers accept any compensation?

Mods, if this is over the top - delete it.

The article from the Jersey Evening Post, from which the quote in the OP originates, is dated 9.00am on 10th January. So likely that he made his comments the day before, if not earlier. A poster on an earlier thread had this as a link shortly after publication, so the date looks correct.

http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2016/01/10/there-has-been-enough-death-family-of-murdered-david-miller-say-they-dont-endorse-death-penalty-for-his-killers/

So might the comments of Mr Miller predate those of Laura?

When were the facebook comments posted? I seem to recall around the 11th / 12th, but could be wrong.

Laura Witheridge's facebook post was made on Sunday, 10th January 2016, the same day as the Miller article appeared in the Jersey Evening Post. Coincidence? Laura's facebook post was in response to the news about the death of Luke Miller on Koh Tao. Facebook posts are instantaneous but newspaper articles are usually not, so I imagine the Millers must have talked to the JEP before 10th January.

However, on Saturday 9th January 2016 the JEP published another article on the Koh Tao case which David Miller's mother has been posting all over facebook. It seems to have appeared in their print edition and provides details of the Court Judgment. This family is in no doubt that the verdict was the correct one and coming forward one day later to say that they do not support the death penalty is just back-pedaling.

[smotherb]

I surely hope that they don't reject the guilty verdict just so they can have closure. I for one would not accept that innocent people would be put away for life for something they didn't do. I would pressure the Thai authorities into bringing the real murderers to trail, that would be the only closure I would hope for and accept.

Good on ya, but just how do you expect the Millers and Witheridges to do that?

[MockingJay]

Now, that's some positive news in this case for a change! Reading between the lines, shall it say, "innocent deaths"?

[spidermike007]

Good for him. The death penalty should be opposed in all circumstances.

Some argue the death penalty is not a deterrent, but it does serve at least two good purposes: 1) tax payer expenses for incarceration are lessened and 2) the perp will never do it again

Actually number ! is misleading, because in places like the US people are on death row for years and years and the cost is much higher than normal imprisonment.

..and number 2 - well you are assuming they did it in the first place.

It is estimated that to put to death one individual in California it costs over $60 million US. Due to a silly system, the appeal process, extra costs for special services and special wards, etc. Quite ridiculous. So, the death penalty does not really save any money, unless you just put a bullet in the head, ala Fat Kim or Vlad the Impaler (Putin) style.

[smotherb]

smotherb said, "Ah yes, the world is not perfect and that is never acceptable. Aside from the fact that a perfect legal system has never been and most probably never will be achieved, how acceptable is world hunger, genocide, religious persecution, etc. ad infinitum. We live in an imperfect world. I think you need to rethink more than your opposition to the death penalty.

Besides, even if the person executed was not the perp, they will never commit a future crime. No matter whether the person convicted was guilty or not, tax payer incarceration expenses will still be lessened."

sjaak327 said, "I think the one you quoted isn't going to rethink his position on the death penalty based on your post. Your first argument isn't an argument of course, and defies logic. Your second argument isn't very strong either and in the case of Thailand pretty much inconsequential, the savings would be minimal. In any case, that could never be a reason for the death penalty."

Neither was an argument, they were simple statements of fact. The person executed will never commit a future crime and even in Thailand, taxpayer expense would be lessened if you do not have to house, feed, and guard them as long.

I really don't expect any of you to rethink your position on the death penalty, but if you are looking for unicorns, you need to look elsewhere.

"Besides, even if the person executed was not the perp, they will never commit a future crime."

The point here is that innocent people would not have to be prevented from commiting a crime in the future..... You would prevent guilty people from commiting a crime in the future, not innocent people.

Yes it is a fact that people executed unjustly would never be able to commit a future crime, but I honestly think that this fact is one of the most clear reasons to be against the death penalty.

Well, you are assuming a person innocent of one crime will not commit another. However, you have missed the obvious. I am not making arguments for the death penalty, or against it; I am simply making factual statements about how things are from my perspective.

We live in an imperfect world. People are not convicted because they are guilty; no matter the crime. They are convicted because they failed to convince the legal system of their innocence—or in some areas, they failed to bribe the right people.

Two reasons are most often posited for being against the death penalty—1) an innocent person may be executed, and 2) the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime.

While I agree with the premise of #1, I cannot believe any law enforcement or judicial system is flawless. Therefore, mistakes will be made. Certainly, allowing multiple appeals diminishes the chance of an innocent’s execution, but may never erase it.

Yes, I know, if you execute an innocent person, they will never have a chance to live again and if you incarcerate an innocent man, you have only taken away his freedom for a while—that is if the legal system ever finds out and frees him.

Therefore, I would rather rely on our exhaustive appeals system than not permit the death penalty.

I disagree with #2. The death penalty would be a deterrent for me; while I may commit a crime which only meant jail time, I would not commit a crime for which I could be executed. I doubt I am alone in that mindset.

However, if the death penalty were not permitted; then terrorists, murderers, rapists, kidnappers and any other perpetrators of crimes which may warrant the death penalty would certainly be less deterred.

Furthermore, such crimes may be employed for gain by any low-life who has a current miserable existence. The worst punishment would be an upgrade--jail time in a place with more amenities than they currently have.

Please note again, I am not arguing the death penalty, I am stating facts as I see them. Arguing any belief is most futile. Have we decided abortion, religion, gay marriage, racism, death penalty . . . ?

[sjaak327]

smotherb said, "Ah yes, the world is not perfect and that is never acceptable. Aside from the fact that a perfect legal system has never been and most probably never will be achieved, how acceptable is world hunger, genocide, religious persecution, etc. ad infinitum. We live in an imperfect world. I think you need to rethink more than your opposition to the death penalty.

Besides, even if the person executed was not the perp, they will never commit a future crime. No matter whether the person convicted was guilty or not, tax payer incarceration expenses will still be lessened."

sjaak327 said, "I think the one you quoted isn't going to rethink his position on the death penalty based on your post. Your first argument isn't an argument of course, and defies logic. Your second argument isn't very strong either and in the case of Thailand pretty much inconsequential, the savings would be minimal. In any case, that could never be a reason for the death penalty."

Neither was an argument, they were simple statements of fact. The person executed will never commit a future crime and even in Thailand, taxpayer expense would be lessened if you do not have to house, feed, and guard them as long.

I really don't expect any of you to rethink your position on the death penalty, but if you are looking for unicorns, you need to look elsewhere.

"Besides, even if the person executed was not the perp, they will never commit a future crime."

The point here is that innocent people would not have to be prevented from commiting a crime in the future..... You would prevent guilty people from commiting a crime in the future, not innocent people.

Yes it is a fact that people executed unjustly would never be able to commit a future crime, but I honestly think that this fact is one of the most clear reasons to be against the death penalty.

Well, you are assuming a person innocent of one crime will not commit another. However, you have missed the obvious. I am not making arguments for the death penalty, or against it; I am simply making factual statements about how things are from my perspective.

We live in an imperfect world. People are not convicted because they are guilty; no matter the crime. They are convicted because they failed to convince the legal system of their innocence—or in some areas, they failed to bribe the right people.

Two reasons are most often posited for being against the death penalty—1) an innocent person may be executed, and 2) the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime.

While I agree with the premise of #1, I cannot believe any law enforcement or judicial system is flawless. Therefore, mistakes will be made. Certainly, allowing multiple appeals diminishes the chance of an innocent’s execution, but may never erase it.

Yes, I know, if you execute an innocent person, they will never have a chance to live again and if you incarcerate an innocent man, you have only taken away his freedom for a while—that is if the legal system ever finds out and frees him.

Therefore, I would rather rely on our exhaustive appeals system than not permit the death penalty.

I disagree with #2. The death penalty would be a deterrent for me; while I may commit a crime which only meant jail time, I would not commit a crime for which I could be executed. I doubt I am alone in that mindset.

However, if the death penalty were not permitted; then terrorists, murderers, rapists, kidnappers and any other perpetrators of crimes which may warrant the death penalty would certainly be less deterred.

Furthermore, such crimes may be employed for gain by any low-life who has a current miserable existence. The worst punishment would be an upgrade--jail time in a place with more amenities than they currently have.

Please note again, I am not arguing the death penalty, I am stating facts as I see them. Arguing any belief is most futile. Have we decided abortion, religion, gay marriage, racism, death penalty . . . ?

I do believe #2 has been debunked by relevant statistics. In other words, countries that do actively utilize the death penalty have not achieved lower capital crime statistics, in fact countries like Thailand and the US are high up on the list of murders for instance.

I wouldn't personally think that terrorists are deterred, they usually avoid capture at all costs anyway

[farcanell]

In this day and age, only the most backward and uncivilised countries have the death penalty.

In this day and age, the most forward looking and civilised countries have the death penalty and they should actively promote its use around the world.

Oh please nottocus, do some research. Just google "the Death Penalty Worldwide"

Please note all those forward looking and civilized countries listed below. However, please also note the three most economically successful countries--US, China, and Japan--do permit the death penalty. Almost amusing, isn't it?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html

Death Penalty Permitted

• Afghanistan
• Antigua and Barbuda
• Bahamas
• Bahrain
• Bangladesh
• Barbados
• Belarus
• Belize
• Botswana
• Chad
• China (People's Republic)
• Comoros
• Congo (Democratic Republic)
• Cuba
• Dominica
• Egypt
• Equatorial Guinea
• Ethiopia
• Gambia
• Guatemala
• Guinea
• Guyana
• India
• Indonesia
• Iran
• Iraq
• Jamaica
• Japan
• Jordan
• Kuwait
• Lebanon

• Lesotho
• Libya
• Malaysia
• Nigeria
• North Korea
• Oman
• Pakistan
• Palestinian Authority
• Qatar
• St. Kitts and Nevis
• St. Lucia
• St. Vincent and the Grenadines
• Saudi Arabia
• Singapore
• Somalia
• South Sudan
• Sudan
• Syria
• Taiwan
• Thailand
• Trinidad and Tobago
• Uganda
• United Arab Emirates
• United States
• Vietnam
• Yemen
• Zimbabwe

Wow... That's quite shocking really... A lot of third world countries there, which is almost understandable, but there is also a lot of what could be deemed as civilized countries as well

[farcanell]

Time with the appeal court to look at and review the decision, on the first basis, and make its own decision, an appeal can also be lodged to review the appeal courts decision to the supreme court, who may look at the case or decide not to review, , after all the appeals have been exhausted or refused the prisoners or some one on their behalf have 60 days to apply for a royal pardon , which may succeed,

Mr Millers wish for a non lethal outcome for these men may well come to fruition. [/quote}


The defense had 30 days to lodge an appeal.

Has anybody read anything, seen anything on TV news whatever indicating that an appeal has been lodged?

I had a good look on the net, and could not find anything confirming that the appeal has been lodged.

A few days ago, the defense team did come out and say that they were working on the appeal, and apparently there has been calls for an extension of time to lodge the appeal, but I found nothing granting an extension, so the defense only has a couple of days left to lodge the appeal

Anyone with more information, please jump in.

I also agree with tukkytuktuk... I would prefer a hot shot over a life in prison, with leg irons welded on for the duration... Stressing here that if all appeals fail, and they stay in prison with death penalty reduced to life imprisonment, per daddy millers opinion / plea... #u< that for a game of soldiers.

[catsanddogs]

Time with the appeal court to look at and review the decision, on the first basis, and make its own decision, an appeal can also be lodged to review the appeal courts decision to the supreme court, who may look at the case or decide not to review, , after all the appeals have been exhausted or refused the prisoners or some one on their behalf have 60 days to apply for a royal pardon , which may succeed,

Mr Millers wish for a non lethal outcome for these men may well come to fruition. [/quote}

The defense had 30 days to lodge an appeal.

Has anybody read anything, seen anything on TV news whatever indicating that an appeal has been lodged?

I had a good look on the net, and could not find anything confirming that the appeal has been lodged.

A few days ago, the defense team did come out and say that they were working on the appeal, and apparently there has been calls for an extension of time to lodge the appeal, but I found nothing granting an extension, so the defense only has a couple of days left to lodge the appeal

Anyone with more information, please jump in.

I also agree with tukkytuktuk... I would prefer a hot shot over a life in prison, with leg irons welded on for the duration... Stressing here that if all appeals fail, and they stay in prison with death penalty reduced to life imprisonment, per daddy millers opinion / plea... #u< that for a game of soldiers.

No doubt the perpetrators of the crimes would agree with you - better that the B2 were silenced and six foot under. I guess it would only be a matter of time, should they be ever released, that they would talk. I live in hope.

[JLCrab]

<snip>

No doubt the perpetrators of the crimes would agree with you - better that the B2 were silenced and six foot under. I guess it would only be a matter of time, should they be ever released, that they would talk. I live in hope.

If they really had anything about which to talk, the 'real' perps might be unwilling to take that chance and might have already rendered the 2 convicted of the crimes permanently unable to talk.

[cumgranosalum]

In this day and age, only the most backward and uncivilised countries have the death penalty.

In this day and age, the most forward looking and civilised countries have the death penalty and they should actively promote its use around the world.

You're in good company with Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, savage!

And you shall be known by your friends, the Khmer Rouge officer Hun Sen of Cambodia, Russia and the SLORC crowd of today's military-controlled Burma.

"SLORC crowd of today's military-controlled Burma." - interestingly enough you cite a country that on paper at least is more democratic that Thailand - at least they have an elected assembly. I think this really underlines your lack of understanding of the real issues surrounding this trial....or any court proceedings for that matter.

[dageurreotype]

I personally am an ardent supporter of the death penalty where there is guilt beyond any doubt. This decision, I do not believe is one of the "beyond any doubt" cases.

So you're all for Judicial Murder then? For that is what it is. There are things far worse than death you know. Barbarian.

[phuketandsee]

Andy Hall has just posted this:

"Koh Samui Court today granted the extension requested by defense lawyers in Koh Tao murder case to delay submitting appeal until 24 Feb 2016"

[Nobb]

Watch out what you say because the Thai police think they did a great job! If not they will arrest you!

[smotherb]

joebrown said,

"In any country where capital punishment exists, the evidence presented in Court should be 100% accurate and leave not the slightest element of doubt as to the culpability of the defendant(s)."

Where is this mystical place where the evidence is 100% accurate and there is not the slightest element of doubt?

[connda]

There is one positive in this whole mess. It has focused a brilliant spotlight on something that would otherwise prefer to stay hidden in the dark recesses of a floor crevice under an equally dark shadow of a sofa. It's now been pulled out into the light of day, even as it struggles to scurry back to it's hiding place.

You'll have to pull the meaning out the the metaphor. Unfortunately we can't just say want we really want to say here in the LOS.