How the people of Tonga got so darned obese

[Jingthing]

A dramatic case in point of how globalization mixed with elements in a local culture, plus genetics, can create a massive obesity epidemic.

I add genetics because certain ethnic groups have adapted to long periods of relative food famines so don't adapt as well when abundant food is always there.

The traditional culture part is interesting. As is not uncommon in traditional cultures, large size is seen as indicating higher social status and even attractiveness. That certainly isn't modern. Of course, nothing attractive about DIABETES.

It's interesting to see similarities and differences to the situation in Thailand where obesity is also expanding, but not nearly to such an extreme as Tonga.

How mutton flaps are killing Tonga

In 1973, 7% of the population were suffering from non-communicable disease - a phrase that has come to be used as synonymous with diabetes in Tonga. By 2004 the figure was 18%. It is now 34% according to the Tongan Health Ministry, thoughsome think the figure could be as high as 40%.

...

Some scientists believe Tonga's problem is partly down to genetics - that Pacific islanders in the past had to survive long periods without food so their bodies are programmed to cling on to fats.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35346493

Edited January 19, 2016 by Jingthing

[singa-traz]

"The genes are strong with this one."

Could not help but notice that Genetic is only mentioned once in this long article, only one sentence, but in your short summary it's written twice , making this point a bit over represented compare to the original text.

On the contrary, Mutton is mentioned more than 10 times, but barely appears once, as the title in the quoted section in smaller font.

Anyway, let's come back to the article.

The change of diet and the influence of the local culture is far more important, and in Thailand you can effectively see a similar effect, people still confusing fat as being healthy.

I still have the old aunty telling me that when I married her niece, she disapproved as I was, then, way too skinny, but actually only normal weight.

Same, when Diabetes Type 2 is diagnosed, then suddenly being fit, is seen in a more positively light.

Funny enough, it's also the older generation that can be more active, doing their regular exercice in the early morning.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change."

[Cynical Sailor]

I've spent quite a bit of time in Tonga and can confidently say that they are among the happiest and friendliest races on earth.

Coincidence?

[singa-traz]

I've spent quite a bit of time in Tonga and can confidently say that they are among the happiest and friendliest races on earth.

Coincidence?

The happy Jolly ones?

The few guys from the pacific that I meet, were very friendly, and large too, but before making any quick conclusion, you should check the difference between "Correlation and Causation".

[robblok]

"The genes are strong with this one."

Could not help but notice that Genetic is only mentioned once in this long article, only one sentence, but in your short summary it's written twice , making this point a bit over represented compare to the original text.

On the contrary, Mutton is mentioned more than 10 times, but barely appears once, as the title in the quoted section in smaller font.

Anyway, let's come back to the article.

The change of diet and the influence of the local culture is far more important, and in Thailand you can effectively see a similar effect, people still confusing fat as being healthy.

I still have the old aunty telling me that when I married her niece, she disapproved as I was, then, way too skinny, but actually only normal weight.

Same, when Diabetes Type 2 is diagnosed, then suddenly being fit, is seen in a more positively light.

Funny enough, it's also the older generation that can be more active, doing their regular exercice in the early morning.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change."

Actually your right.. they are in the article going on about the change in diet and how the mutton got them fat and how it was not unusual to eat 1kg of mutton in a sitting. They say that the change came around the same time as they changed their diet.

So its mainly about food but genes add in to it too, but as usual JT puts the blame mostly on something that is not possible to change and ignores the food part and the story about the guy that lost 70 kg by changing his diet.

But he is right genes do account for something, many islanders also make great bodybuilders (look at the rock). The same genes that make people fat also help with getting muscles. I am one of those guys.. easy to get fat.. but also (relatively) easy to get muscular. So again its not only outside influences but its what you do with the lot in life that you got.

The will to change and to take charge that is what separates failure and moaners from successful people. But genes certainly account for a lot, take 2 people and both let them do hard exercise.. one will grow muscles the other won't but the one that won't usually does not get easy fat either.

Once you know your limitations its up to yourself to live with it and adapt your life to it or moan about it and don't do a thing.

But lets not be unfair here, if your in an environment where everyone is fat and its normal.. then people will accept it There is then not much effort to change, also change is hard if your a social person in such an environment.

JT is always campaigning against fat shaming.. (he is right partly) but the acceptance of obesity calling it a disease and or accepting it as normal is also not the right way because then all motivation to change is gone. Just look at Tonga. Social pressure does help as we are a social species and in general want to fit in. So once you give obesity the disease status and accept it too much much of the pressure to change is taken away, of course we should not go to the other extreme too and put obese people down all the time.

[Jingthing]

"The genes are strong with this one."

Could not help but notice that Genetic is only mentioned once in this long article, only one sentence, but in your short summary it's written twice , making this point a bit over represented compare to the original text.

On the contrary, Mutton is mentioned more than 10 times, but barely appears once, as the title in the quoted section in smaller font.

Anyway, let's come back to the article.

The change of diet and the influence of the local culture is far more important, and in Thailand you can effectively see a similar effect, people still confusing fat as being healthy.

I still have the old aunty telling me that when I married her niece, she disapproved as I was, then, way too skinny, but actually only normal weight.

Same, when Diabetes Type 2 is diagnosed, then suddenly being fit, is seen in a more positively light.

Funny enough, it's also the older generation that can be more active, doing their regular exercice in the early morning.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change."

Actually your right.. they are in the article going on about the change in diet and how the mutton got them fat and how it was not unusual to eat 1kg of mutton in a sitting. They say that the change came around the same time as they changed their diet.

So its mainly about food but genes add in to it too, but as usual JT puts the blame mostly on something that is not possible to change and ignores the food part and the story about the guy that lost 70 kg by changing his diet.

But he is right genes do account for something, many islanders also make great bodybuilders (look at the rock). The same genes that make people fat also help with getting muscles. I am one of those guys.. easy to get fat.. but also (relatively) easy to get muscular. So again its not only outside influences but its what you do with the lot in life that you got.

The will to change and to take charge that is what separates failure and moaners from successful people. But genes certainly account for a lot, take 2 people and both let them do hard exercise.. one will grow muscles the other won't but the one that won't usually does not get easy fat either.

Once you know your limitations its up to yourself to live with it and adapt your life to it or moan about it and don't do a thing.

But lets not be unfair here, if your in an environment where everyone is fat and its normal.. then people will accept it There is then not much effort to change, also change is hard if your a social person in such an environment.

JT is always campaigning against fat shaming.. (he is right partly) but the acceptance of obesity calling it a disease and or accepting it as normal is also not the right way because then all motivation to change is gone. Just look at Tonga. Social pressure does help as we are a social species and in general want to fit in. So once you give obesity the disease status and accept it too much much of the pressure to change is taken away, of course we should not go to the other extreme too and put obese people down all the time.

The article is about obesity related topics in TONGA.

The article is not about me.

Again, total garbage personal lies about me and about what I do or don't believe in that post.

So many garbage lies, yet again, can you please stop HARASSING me?

I don't appreciate being BULLIED on this forum and there is no reason it should be tolerated.

If you want to reply to CONTENT in TOPICS, great, but the way you have been lying about me personally and HARASSING me for years is just not OK.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I've spent quite a bit of time in Tonga and can confidently say that they are among the happiest and friendliest races on earth.

Coincidence?

I have some exposure to Pacific Islanders of that region and I don't really see how their personal affect, which yes I suppose is stereotypically a positive happy one, really has much to do with the health risk they are dealing with with such high rates of obesity, which of course is directly related to diabetes, among other diseases.

[Jingthing]

"The genes are strong with this one."

Could not help but notice that Genetic is only mentioned once in this long article, only one sentence, but in your short summary it's written twice , making this point a bit over represented compare to the original text.

...

Where is that quote from,

"The genes are strong with this one."

I don't see it in the previous text or article.

It seems strange to quote something that isn't there.

Anyone, back to the actual content in the OP, I had invited people to compare and contrast the growing obesity epidemic in Tonga vs. Thailand. The factors mentioned about Tonga... how do they compare to the factors seen in Thailand, among Thais, not so much among expats? What's different between Tonga and Thailand? What's similar?

Edited January 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[robblok]

"The genes are strong with this one."

Could not help but notice that Genetic is only mentioned once in this long article, only one sentence, but in your short summary it's written twice , making this point a bit over represented compare to the original text.

On the contrary, Mutton is mentioned more than 10 times, but barely appears once, as the title in the quoted section in smaller font.

Anyway, let's come back to the article.

The change of diet and the influence of the local culture is far more important, and in Thailand you can effectively see a similar effect, people still confusing fat as being healthy.

I still have the old aunty telling me that when I married her niece, she disapproved as I was, then, way too skinny, but actually only normal weight.

Same, when Diabetes Type 2 is diagnosed, then suddenly being fit, is seen in a more positively light.

Funny enough, it's also the older generation that can be more active, doing their regular exercice in the early morning.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change."

Actually your right.. they are in the article going on about the change in diet and how the mutton got them fat and how it was not unusual to eat 1kg of mutton in a sitting. They say that the change came around the same time as they changed their diet.

So its mainly about food but genes add in to it too, but as usual JT puts the blame mostly on something that is not possible to change and ignores the food part and the story about the guy that lost 70 kg by changing his diet.

But he is right genes do account for something, many islanders also make great bodybuilders (look at the rock). The same genes that make people fat also help with getting muscles. I am one of those guys.. easy to get fat.. but also (relatively) easy to get muscular. So again its not only outside influences but its what you do with the lot in life that you got.

The will to change and to take charge that is what separates failure and moaners from successful people. But genes certainly account for a lot, take 2 people and both let them do hard exercise.. one will grow muscles the other won't but the one that won't usually does not get easy fat either.

Once you know your limitations its up to yourself to live with it and adapt your life to it or moan about it and don't do a thing.

But lets not be unfair here, if your in an environment where everyone is fat and its normal.. then people will accept it There is then not much effort to change, also change is hard if your a social person in such an environment.

JT is always campaigning against fat shaming.. (he is right partly) but the acceptance of obesity calling it a disease and or accepting it as normal is also not the right way because then all motivation to change is gone. Just look at Tonga. Social pressure does help as we are a social species and in general want to fit in. So once you give obesity the disease status and accept it too much much of the pressure to change is taken away, of course we should not go to the other extreme too and put obese people down all the time.

The article is about obesity related topics in TONGA.

The article is not about me.

Again, total garbage personal lies about me and about what I do or don't believe in that post.

So many garbage lies, yet again, can you please stop HARASSING me?

I don't appreciate being BULLIED on this forum and there is no reason it should be tolerated.

If you want to reply to CONTENT in TOPICS, great, but the way you have been lying about me personally and HARASSING me for years is just not OK.

Not bullying at all.. and i was really OT. You took the article out of context.. putting the spotlights on the genes while most of the article was about changes in eating habits. Just pointed out how you look at things given your posting history and what you did in this topic.

If you call that bullying then you really have chip on your shoulder.

You call every opinion that is not your own bullying..

Edited January 20, 2016 by robblok

[Jingthing]

"The genes are strong with this one."

Could not help but notice that Genetic is only mentioned once in this long article, only one sentence, but in your short summary it's written twice , making this point a bit over represented compare to the original text.

On the contrary, Mutton is mentioned more than 10 times, but barely appears once, as the title in the quoted section in smaller font.

Anyway, let's come back to the article.

The change of diet and the influence of the local culture is far more important, and in Thailand you can effectively see a similar effect, people still confusing fat as being healthy.

I still have the old aunty telling me that when I married her niece, she disapproved as I was, then, way too skinny, but actually only normal weight.

Same, when Diabetes Type 2 is diagnosed, then suddenly being fit, is seen in a more positively light.

Funny enough, it's also the older generation that can be more active, doing their regular exercice in the early morning.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change."

Actually your right.. they are in the article going on about the change in diet and how the mutton got them fat and how it was not unusual to eat 1kg of mutton in a sitting. They say that the change came around the same time as they changed their diet.

So its mainly about food but genes add in to it too, but as usual JT puts the blame mostly on something that is not possible to change and ignores the food part and the story about the guy that lost 70 kg by changing his diet.

But he is right genes do account for something, many islanders also make great bodybuilders (look at the rock). The same genes that make people fat also help with getting muscles. I am one of those guys.. easy to get fat.. but also (relatively) easy to get muscular. So again its not only outside influences but its what you do with the lot in life that you got.

The will to change and to take charge that is what separates failure and moaners from successful people. But genes certainly account for a lot, take 2 people and both let them do hard exercise.. one will grow muscles the other won't but the one that won't usually does not get easy fat either.

Once you know your limitations its up to yourself to live with it and adapt your life to it or moan about it and don't do a thing.

But lets not be unfair here, if your in an environment where everyone is fat and its normal.. then people will accept it There is then not much effort to change, also change is hard if your a social person in such an environment.

JT is always campaigning against fat shaming.. (he is right partly) but the acceptance of obesity calling it a disease and or accepting it as normal is also not the right way because then all motivation to change is gone. Just look at Tonga. Social pressure does help as we are a social species and in general want to fit in. So once you give obesity the disease status and accept it too much much of the pressure to change is taken away, of course we should not go to the other extreme too and put obese people down all the time.

The article is about obesity related topics in TONGA.

The article is not about me.

Again, total garbage personal lies about me and about what I do or don't believe in that post.

So many garbage lies, yet again, can you please stop HARASSING me?

I don't appreciate being BULLIED on this forum and there is no reason it should be tolerated.

If you want to reply to CONTENT in TOPICS, great, but the way you have been lying about me personally and HARASSING me for years is just not OK.

Not bullying at all.. and i was really OT. You took the article out of context.. putting the spotlights on the genes while most of the article was about changes in eating habits. Just pointed out how you look at things given your posting history and what you did in this topic.

If you call that bullying then you really have chip on your shoulder.

You call every opinion that is not your own bullying..

Yes, it was a personal attack because you created FICTIONAL NARRATIVES, LIES actually, which were about you stating BS about what I personally think and don't think, rather than about the topic. That is not OK. You can deny it but you've been doing it for years. I put you on ignore for years hoping you would stop doing that, but instead you abused that situation and created even more outlandish fictional narratives about me. Again, post on the TOPIC and stop harassing me with your obsessive ideological campaign about me personally which has nothing to do with me, but something about you which I will leave to a psychologist to understand the motivation. I am not interested in the motivation. I am interested in posting here without your constant bullying.

Rob, it is not that hard.

You see CONTENT in posts.

Reply to CONTENT.

No more JT this, JT that, so many lies, yes it is bullying.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[gk10002000]

Very similar to the American Indians. Hundreds of generations improving and surviving on often scarce food supplies led some to develop a phenomenal ability to store calories. Then modern junk food came along and the glut of calories leads to obesity and other health issues.

[robblok]

@JT

Ask a mod to come and check it.. if they tell me its bullying I accept it.. otherwise you will apologize on this board for accusing me.

Its not that hard.. mods make the rules.. not you.

[robblok]

Very similar to the American Indians. Hundreds of generations improving and surviving on often scarce food supplies led some to develop a phenomenal ability to store calories. Then modern junk food came along and the glut of calories leads to obesity and other health issues.

Yep, they were OK on their traditional diet.. and then eat crap food at a caloric surplus and they get fat. Its both.. bad diet plus genes.. but even without the genes many would have gotten fat on the bad diet.. just look at normal Americans on the same diet.

Genes account for one thing but the main problem is not the genes but the diet.. But it certainly ads to the misery.

[Jingthing]

@JT

Ask a mod to come and check it.. if they tell me its bullying I accept it.. otherwise you will apologize on this board for accusing me.

Its not that hard.. mods make the rules.. not you.

I am not talking about one or two posts. I am talking about your posting tactic for years. I am not going to discuss mod matters with you on the public forum.

I have told you explicitly that this is a problem, and you persist. Why would you do that? Why can't you keep to the CONTENT instead of your relentless JT this, JT that, total off topic personal attacks filled with outlandish fictional narratives that you've fabricated, for years now?

In real life if someone tells you again and again, you're harassing me, you're obsessively broadcasting lies about me, can you please knock it off, do you just KEEP DOING IT? I would hope not. So why here, do you do that, for years?

This is really not complicated, Rob.

It's simple actually.

We can both post on this health forum in harmony. No problem.

Just focus on the actual CONTENT in posts.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[robblok]

@JT

Ask a mod to come and check it.. if they tell me its bullying I accept it.. otherwise you will apologize on this board for accusing me.

Its not that hard.. mods make the rules.. not you.

I am not talking about one or two posts. I am talking about your posting tactic for years. I am not going to discuss mod matters with you on the public forum.

I have told you explicitly that this is a problem, and you persist. Why would you do that? Why can't you keep to the CONTENT instead of your relentless JT this, JT that, total off topic personal attacks filled with outlandish fictional narratives that you've fabricated, for years now?

In real life if someone tells you again and again, you're harassing me, you're obsessively broadcasting lies about me, can you please knock it off, do you just KEEP DOING IT? I would hope not. So why here, do you do that, for years?

This is really not complicated, Rob.

It's simple actually.

We can both post on this health forum in harmony. No problem.

Just focus on the actual CONTENT in posts.

Hot air then.. no bullying.. your afraid to ask a mod as you know I was not abusive in the least in this topic.

Bye JT live with it or get a mod.

Mods are impartial so i would love to have one look at this.

Edited January 20, 2016 by robblok

[Cynical Sailor]

You're both as bad as each other. Give it a rest.

[Jingthing]

I will not discuss mod matters on the forum. I was trying to address this in a civilized way and proposed a civilized solution. Again, not complicated at all. Focus on the CONTENT. Stop with the JT this, JT that ridiculousness PERSONALIZING everything.

[Jingthing]

You're both as bad as each other. Give it a rest.

Could be you don't know the history. But I agree, it should stop, and I've proposed a very reasonable solution. Focus on content. Not personal BS.

I also do feel it's not fair to readers to have to read this noise. But if it was you being lied about for years in a personal way, wouldn't you eventually feel you just had to CONFRONT the person doing that bullying behavior and ask him to cut it out? Well, unfortunately, that's where it's at now.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[Cynical Sailor]

You're both as bad as each other. Give it a rest.

Could be you don't know the history. But I agree, it should stop, and I've proposed a very reasonable solution. Focus on content. Not personal BS.

I also do feel it's not fair to readers to have to read this noise. But if it was you being lied about for years in a personal way, wouldn't you eventually feel you just had to CONFRONT the person doing that bullying behavior and ask him to cut it out? Well, unfortunately, that's where it's at now.

You're right. I don't know the history, but like any confrontation it should be done in private. The pair of you have once again managed to totally derail a thread.

[Jingthing]

You're both as bad as each other. Give it a rest.

Could be you don't know the history. But I agree, it should stop, and I've proposed a very reasonable solution. Focus on content. Not personal BS.

I also do feel it's not fair to readers to have to read this noise. But if it was you being lied about for years in a personal way, wouldn't you eventually feel you just had to CONFRONT the person doing that bullying behavior and ask him to cut it out? Well, unfortunately, that's where it's at now.

You're right. I don't know the history, but like any confrontation it should be done in private. The pair of you have once again managed to totally derail a thread.

Your idea ... resolved in private sounds reasonable, but it's not as easy as you might imagine in some cases. So I have made this public appeal. Post on the topics. Don't post on personalities. Say your opinions. Don't invent opinions of others as a means of personally attacking them.

Again, these topics are about the topics.

Content topics here are about whatever they're about.

In the context of THIS thread, as the OP, I will say this:

-- If you have something to say about the content of the OP, Obesity in Tonga, please do so.

-- If you only want to post character assassination posts or personal evaluations of other members here, DO NOT post here.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Regarding the cheap fatty lamb TAIL FAT being sent to Tonga, it was news to me that is the same ingredient used in very popular Turkish lamb kebabs called ADANA KEBAB. I actually had one of those the other day. Once in a while, I'm sure OK, but as a the main meat in your daily diet. Uh oh!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adana_kebab%C4%B1

Edited January 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[MaeJoMTB]

I've spent quite a bit of time in Tonga and can confidently say that they are among the happiest and friendliest races on earth.

Coincidence?

Nobody will challenge fat and lazy people being happy.

They have less time alive than healthy people to be unhappy.

[Jingthing]

It's interesting that "scrap meats" in one country are prized in other countries. Like American horse meat going to France. Not that horse meat is a concern for obesity as are lamb tails. Some of the tastiest cooking in the world was developed based on cheaper meat cuts. Then sometimes those once tasty "cheap" cuts get so popular they become expensive. Like lobster used to be considered trash seafood.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Looking more into Tonga.

Definitely, a different cultural outlook towards food there.

Rather extreme.

A saying there: Eat Until You Die.

http://www.downeyobesityreport.com/tag/tonga/

Tongans used to go on long sea voyages. The larger ones were more likely to survive. Knowing that, the cultural association there of large size and health/status makes more sense.

BTW, I found this Downey Obesity Report randomly but it appears to be quite an interesting and unusual resource on a wide variety of obesity related issues.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[robblok]

So in short... its more about their change in diet and their outlook on food as it is on genes (the fact that is out of their control). Genes do contribute but the other factors are far more important. So why stress out genes while most of it are other factors.

[Jingthing]

So in short... its more about their change in diet and their outlook on food as it is on genes (the fact that is out of their control). Genes do contribute but the other factors are far more important. So why stress out genes while most of it are other factors.

I think it's more about a story of a kind of PERFECT STORM that has occurred there of a variety of different factors that has resulted in the mess of such a high obesity/diabetes rate. They've got a lot of work to do going forward and their leaders are going to have to decide what steps to take that make the most sense to get the best results in the most cost effective way (it's not a rich country). I assume, as in most nations facing similar epidemics, that would probably be to focus on the youth PREVENTION and also perhaps some conscious TOP DOWN effort to change the culture (not easy). On the lamb tail thing, that's hard and political. If it was me I would say tax the hell out of them and make the tails expensive and figure out ways of promoting cheaper foods not associated with increased obesity. Many would see that as social control and suppressing freedom. This mirrors the discussions in many countries. Such as the sugar tax in Mexico. It seems to me on a small nation like Tonga it would be a lot easier to get quicker results with social/tax policies than a very large diverse nation like Mexico, but first they would need the political will do that, and I assume they don't have that.

As far as genetics, I'm not knowledgeable on what scientific proof, IF ANY, they have in Tonga that they can actually see at the genetic level. Maybe it's more like theories based on what they know about the history and culture of their sea voyages and long famine periods. I reckon it's true there isn't anything to be done about the genetic aspect there at this time. Action to help with that aspect of the PERFECT STORM would involve some kind of gene therapy to alter individual's genes. That's all over my head. If news comes about such gene therapies coming in the future (Tonga would seem a perfect place to work on that) I'd be curious to see it.

But I totally agree from the POV of ACTION NOW, the gene theory part is more about ACADEMIC CURIOSITY than anything that can have practical application here and now to help the people there.

Also as Tonga is a small nation with an unusually severe obesity problem, it continues to be of academic interest to the entire world, much of which faces similar problems, but not as severe. Sort of like a laboratory. If Tonga does take specific widespread actions and the results work well or not, the entire world may learn from that and decide whether those tactics might apply to their countries. Some of the issues Tonga faces are specific to Tonga. Some are not.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Jingthing

[robblok]

Genes are always interesting and they do play a role but in this case its more the food culture and the change in foods that they ate.

Yes it was a perfect storm it all made it worse that is for sure. Taxing it might work.. but that wont be a popular measure.. actually there are no popular measures. I would say education and prevention but your right.. they might have to tax those kinds of foods.

Gene therapy.. that is so far impossible.. so far we can't change genetic makeup (once its there). But again genes do play a role but its not a huge role its more the overeating and being obsessed by food. Otherwise they would have been obese before the change of foods.

Actually for almost everyone it boils down to eating too much or the the wrong stuff. Genes and individual characteristics do influence stuff but within those limits we can all be of normal weight. We are not designed to be overweight, its just us eating the wrong stuff that gets us that way.

Take the example of biking, everyone will improve on biking once they start training it.. but even if you put 3 times the effort in as a a beginner with lance Armstrong genes you will never be better as him. But you can improve a lot on yourself. I could train as hard as Schwarzenegger.. take all his steroids and still never be him... but I would be one huge guy in my own right and far above average. So yes genes matter.. but not as much as you would think and only past a certain level.

Same for loosing weight.. we will al get to a normal size.. however some will become fitness model slim and others no matter how hard they try will just be "normal". Life is not fair and its not only the effort we put into it but at least we can all improve on ourselves. To get the same result. some need to restrict more as others.. But that is with all things in life.. some people are smarter as others.. others can sing better.. or construct things better. Does not mean that those who are not as good are sick or stupid.. we just have to accept our limitations.

[Jingthing]

Many Tongans have been obese in the past, we do KNOW this about their history and culture, during times of plenty, the genetic theory asserts that the obesity was a successful thing to be in Tonga for survival and thus the more obesity related genetic makeup may have evolved to be more common in that population.

What wasn't there in the past, was the MASSIVELY HIGH RATE of obesity probably because the food supplies weren't there in abundance all the time also combined with the fact that the old traditional diet didn't include stuff like lamb tail fat.

What we see in Tonga is a toxic COMBINATION of factors showing a dramatic result.

As far as relative "importance" of this or that, you can assert theories and opinions all you like.

I don't have enough information to even begin to assert such theories and opinions on that matter of relative importance, so I won't.

If others want to focus about that for whatever reason, with limited information, that's cool, but it doesn't really interest me unless people can actually provide some definitive scientific evidence of their assertions.

I think I can say with some good level of certainty that IF it is really true that Tongans have a genetic tendency towards obesity based on evolution of their ethnic group that this SAME population with the same feast/famine culture and change of diet to lamb tails would NOT have AS high a rate of obesity if they didn't have that genetic tendency. To surmise how much less severe, that's not something any of us here are qualified to say. I don't think even the specialists studying Tonga are at the point of commenting on that question, so it's kind of silly and arrogant to presume any of us non-scientists can know that.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263516504_Gene_Therapy_for_Obesity_Progress_and_Prospects

Edited January 21, 2016 by Jingthing

[robblok]

JT,

I have been reading last night but nowhere did I find anything about being able to change our genes once we are already born. (sounds a lot like the experiments of Mengele). I have found some vague reports of changing the top layer of genes or something like that. But that all came from one source.

If you have something please share, I am interested in reading because I thought it was impossible. With cloning and genetic modifications we can change animals but that is when they are still a bunch of cells not when they are already living. I would figure that we are not further with human trials as we are on animals.

[Jingthing]

I am not a geneticist. So I wouldn't be the person to ask for authoritative final answers about such things. I suggest if you're sincerely interested such things that you dig deeper. Perhaps you'd like to start a new thread about the current state of gene therapy research related to the prevention and treatment of obesity. This thread isn't really that thread.

I think we can all agree that you can't go into a doctor NOW or take your baby into a doctor NOW and seek such gene therapy. As far as the future, and when in the future, I certainly don't know!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090309191858.htm

http://conscienhealth.org/2015/12/gene-therapy-for-obesity/

Anyway, I do think it is fair to say that genetics is a FACTOR (not the only factor, ONE FACTOR) in obesity for each individual, and each individual's genetic code is theirs so the extent of that factor will vary by individual. PERHAPS as indicated in the linked article in the OP some ETHNIC GROUPS have a larger percentage than "normal" of their population with such obesity promoting genetic factors.

To be clear, a person or an ethnic group PERHAPS having these genetic factors does not PREDETERMINE a lifetime of obesity, but arguably it DOES make it more likely when combined with person's behaviors and situation in life. In the case of modern Tonga, the current abundance of food, the popularity of foods like lamb fat tails and sugar sodas, and the traditional culture where obesity is associated with status and attractiveness. Take that same person with the same genes and raise him in a different culture where he behaves differently, very good chance that obesity wouldn't develop.

Jumping this a bit here, addressing the readers here who have or have had weight control issues, whether GENETIC FACTORS are a factor FOR US is a personal matter. I don't know how we would know for sure unless we went in and had our genetic code examined and the scientists could point out factors in it associated with obesity. I know a lot of people look at families ... were both parents obese? Do that prove anything scientifically about a genetic factor? I don't think so but people do look at that. It's interesting that for things that are fully accepted as clinical diseases, like diabetes, family history is taken very very seriously.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Jingthing