Dual Citizenship Is Illegal

[chairat]

Forum discussion in Pantip websites -- Dual citizenship is illegal under Thai law

http://www.pantip.com/cafe/rajdumnern/topi...1/P2761521.html

Please clarify about dual citizenship under Thai law

[chairat]

Look at comment 16 in pantip

http://www.pantip.com/cafe/rajdumnern/topi...2761521.html#16

What is your opinion?

[elsie]

According to Ministry of Foreign Affairs, it is not illegal to have dual citizenship.

Edited April 14, 2004 by LovelyCutie

[samran]

Chairat,

STOP STRESSING!!!!

As you can see, everyone is confused on Pantip. So I'll just say this: If dual nationality was illegal, the royal Thai embassy in canberra would not have renewed my Thai passport last year. They know full well I am an Australian citizen also, and I am way over 20 years of age.....

So as long as they keep letting me use my Thai passport, I will keep using it.

[samran]

พ.ร.บ. สัญชาติ พ.ศ. 2508 แก้ไขโดย พ.ร.บ. สัญชาติ (ฉบับที่2 และฉบับที่3) พ.ศ. 2535 มิได้มีบทบัญญัติกำหนดเกี่ยวกับผู้มีสัญชาติไทยและสัญชาติอื่นในขณะเดียวกันไว้โดยตรง และไม่ได้มีบทบัญญัติกำหนดว่าให้ผู้ที่มีสัญชาติไทยและสัญชาติอื่นในขณะเดียวกันต้องเสียสัญชาติไทยเพราะข้อเท็จจริงที่บุคคลนั้นมีสัญชาติอื่นอยู่ด้วย ดังนั้น หากบุคคลผู้ถือสัญชาติไทยและสัญชาติอื่นในขณะเดียวกันมิได้แสดงเจตนาสละสัญชาติไทย หรือกระทำการใดที่อาจเป็นเหตุให้องค์กรของรัฐถอนสัญชาติ และไม่มีสถานการณ์ที่บุคคลอาจเสียสัญชาติ หรือกระทำการใดที่เป็นการยอมรับว่าตนเป็นคนต่างด้าว บุคคลนั้นจึงสามารถถือสัญชาติไทยและสัญชาติอื่นได้ในขณะเดียวกัน ส่วนบุคคลนั้นจะเสียอีกสัญชาติหนึ่งหรือไม่ประการใดก็ย่อมเป็นไปตามกฎหมายสัญชาติของประเทศนั้น ทั้งนี้ คุณดวงใจฯ สามารถหาข้อมูลเพิ่มเติมและข้อมูลในทางปฎิบัติได้จากกระทรวงมหาดไทย ซึ่งเป็นหน่วยงานผู้รักษาการพ.ร.บ.สัญชาติฯ

Chairat (and others who are interested)

you may have seen this one on Pantip. This sounds like it has been written by a lawyer. It is also is how this issue has been explained to me before by various people. A rough translation:

"The Nationality act of 2508 was ammended by the Nationality Act of 2535. This act does not have any section which has a direct reference dealing with people who have both Thai and foriegn citizenship.

"Neither does it have any section forcing people who have both Thai and other citienship to relinquish Thai nationality.

"Given this, holding both Thai and foreign nationality, does not display on that persons part the intention to renounce Thai nationality (note: it used to be that holding a foreign nationality was deemed showing intention that this was the case).

"Nor does it give sufficent cause for a body of the state to withdraw Thai citizenship from that person, provide circumstance that a person has lost Thai nationaility, nor display any other action that the person accepts an alien status.

"Those people are therfore able to hold both Thai and foreign nationalities at the same time.

"Those who are do give up a second nationality, will do so based upon the laws of the second country they have nationality with.

"For those who are interested, they are able to request more information from the Ministry of Interior, which is charged for overseeing the Nationality Act"

So there you go people. Sounds authoritive enough for me........

[dr_Pat_Pong]

A lotta people take a lotta drink it seems Chris. Thanks for that explanation. My Thai reading is soooo slow ... Gor Kor and I get troubled by Hor ( sara arai na ? )

[samran]

No worries Dr.

I am good at reading thai (except newspapers which give me a head ache). Can't write it for peanuts though.

I used to stress about this issue as much as Chairat. Then I went to work for the Thai government. Taught me a few things on how to handle the average civil servant and their rules.

[chairat]

Taksin said that his government would make a law to state that no one could

hold more than one citizenship.

http://www.manager.co.th/asp-bin/Viewnews....D=4760293318032

[samran]

and do you believe everything that the PM says Chairat?

You read the Pantip forum didn't you? Many Many members of parliament have dual citizenship. Why would they allow a law which takes it away from them.

Taksins son, "Oak", was born in the US and is on the record as having a US passport.

Taksin says many things, but haven't you learnt yet not to beleive him? (fix traffic problems in 6 months, no chicken flu in Thailand, how he will fix the problems down south).

The whole reason why the law was changed in 2535 was that the law was unfairly stripping away the citizenship rights of Thai women who happened to marry foreigners, many of whom who had children in Thailand who effectively became stateless. It was a common sense solution to a huge problem.

Just because the PM says something....doesn't mean that we should beleive him.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

and do you believe everything that the PM says Chairat?

You read the Pantip forum didn't you? Many Many members of parliament have dual citizenship. Why would they allow a law which takes it away from them.

Taksins son, "Oak", was born in the US and is on the record as having a US passport.

Taksin says many things, but haven't you learnt yet not to beleive him? (fix traffic problems in 6 months, no chicken flu in Thailand, how he will fix the problems down south).

The whole reason why the law was changed in 2535 was that the law was unfairly stripping away the citizenship rights of Thai women who happened to marry foreigners, many of whom who had children in Thailand who effectively became stateless. It was a common sense solution to a huge problem.

Just because the PM says something....doesn't mean that we should beleive him.

He said that the drug issue had gone away too.

[eploy]

I work at a law firm here in Bangkok, Thailand. Although I am not myself a qualified lawyer, I keep myself well-informed on this topic since I hold dual Thai-US citizenship. I acquired my dual citizenship status automatically by operation Thai and American law (two separate bodies of law). I was born and raised in the US to 2 Thai nationals. I acquired US citizenship by birth on US soil (my parents had legally immigrated to the US in the late 1960s). I acquired Thai citizenship because both of my parents are Thai citizens and have never renounced their Thai citizenship (my parents also became naturalized US citizens in the 1990s).

The British Embassy in Thailand once asked my law firm whether Thailand recognizes dual citizenship? A joint response from a British lawyer and Thai lawyer read in part:

Thai law implicitly recognises the concept of dual nationality.

Thai law also provides for:

- various circumstances in which a dual Thai/foreign national is permitted to renounce Thai nationality; and

- various circumstances in which a Thai national may be deprived of Thai nationality.

. . . in relation to the children of Thai/foreign parents who have dual nationality during childhood, this is an example of a situation where renunciation of Thai nationality is permitted. When the child becomes of legal age under Thai law, i.e. twenty, he or she may within the next twelve months renounce Thai nationality. When that twelve month period has expired, there is no longer any such right of renunciation, though the Interior Minister retains a discretion to approve an application to renounce.

The above legal opinion was derived from a reading of the Thai Nationality Act B.E. 2508 (C.E. 1965). Nowhere in the Act does it specifically or even implicitly forbid dual citizenship. As stated in the opinion above, Thai law allows people to renounce their Thai citizenship at the age of 20. When I asked the Thai and British lawyers why this option existed, the rationale was to allow otherwise eligible men to legally avoid the Thai military draft, and also to allow those individuals who are citizens of other countries not permitting dual citizenship to relinquish their Thai citizenship in compliance with the law of the other country (e.g., until recently Australia did not permit its nationals to hold dual citizenship. Also, The Netherlands still does not allow dual citizenship).

In addition to the above legal opinion and its source, I could find no Thai law forbidding dual citizenship (keep in mind that I am not a qualified lawyer). Laws such as the 1997 Constitution go so far as to protect the Thai citizenship of individuals. Other laws such as the US-Thai tax treaty are drafted in such a way as to suggest the possibility of dual citizenship.

As earlier posters have properly noted, many in elite Thai society hold dual citizenship. I know of many prominent Thais with dual citizenship including PM Thaksin's own son, Phan Thong Tae, and even the American-born grandchildren of HM King Rama IX 'the Great' (i.e., the Jensen children). Legally, if the elites can hold dual citizenship, then so can the great 'unwashed' masses including myself. Theoretically at least, everyone is equal under Thai law, correct?

Dual citizenship has become an issue recently with regard to the bombing and violence in the South. The current government believes that the perpetrators of such acts are those holding Thai-Malay dual citizenship. From what I understand, there were talks to prohibit dual Thai-Malay citizenship and even dual citizenship status for all. This proposal has been thankfully dropped when it was realized that the economic benefits of dual citizenship far outweigh any potential problems caused by such an arrangement. Besides, there are arguably better ways to address the violence in the South than by stripping people of their Thai citizenship or forcing them to renounce their dual citizenship status. Also, the Thai government has not conclusively shown or publicized that those holding Thai-Malay dual citizenship are the root of most of the violence in the South.

Despite the above legal opinion, and other sources of Thai law, Thais persistently believe that one cannot be dual citizens. My uncle (who holds both Thai and US citizenship having lived and worked for 20 years in Texas) still erroneously believes that dual citizenship is illegal and will not allow his children to acquire US citizenship despite my personal advice. When I travel to the US, Thai Airway Personnel constantly ask to see my green card to the US. When I show them my Thai and US passport, they shake their head in disapproval and tell me that I can only have 1 passport. My response to them is that these people have never read

the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 let alone closely scrutinize its provisions. They are uninformed people, and yet they should know the law in this area. There is very little excuse for not knowing one's legal rights (and obligations). I hope that by posting this message, I can help get the word out on this matter.

[eploy]

I have one correction to my previous post. The legal advice to the British Embassy in Thailand as given by the Thai and British lawyer was based on the Nationality Act, B.E. 2536 (1993) and not the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965) which was repealed. The rest of my message stays the same.

[Guest chingy]

http://www.usa.or.th/cservices/index.htm

under Dual Citizenship and Births Overseas

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad.

[eploy]

I have read comment no. 16 from Panthip. (My Thai stinks and it took me some time to read it).

The woman is a victim (yes, "victim") of a mis-informed bureaucrat. Before returing to Thailand 5 years ago, I was under the same false impression as the mis-informed bureaucrat (i.e., that one had to renounce either one's Thai or foreign passport/dual nationality status at the age of 20). I received my misinformation from my parents who inturn received it from a low-ranking Thai Airlines Official and several others. Interestingly, none of these self-appointed immigration "experts" were lawyers, had any legal or other suitable training, or even claimed to have read the Nationality Act. They based their knowledge on what someone else told them without checking the facts for themselves. This reliance on what an "authoritative figure" says combined with personal laziness is how mis-information in Thailand gets spread. (As an aside, I encourage all interested Thais - not just those trained in the law or immigration bureaucrats - to actually read the Nationality Act for themselves. Perhaps you can travel to and from Thailand with a copy of this law ready in hand to proverbially club some mis-informed bureaucrat over the head with it).

As I stated in my previous posting, I could find nothing written in Thai law which says that a person must renounce either their Thai or foreign passport at the age of 20. Thai law gives people the option of relinquishing their Thai passport in order to allow those individuals who are citizens of other countries not permitting (as opposed to not recognizing) dual citizenship to relinquish their Thai citizenship in compliance with the law of the other country. This, however, is merely an option. It is not mandatory to do so, and indeed the right to do so expires when one turns 21. Also, Thai authorities have no right or business telling you that you must surrender your foreign passport. That matter is between you and your other home country, which has its own separate nationality laws.

By the way, I found the following information off the Royal Thai Embassy website in Brussels (http://www.waw.be/rte-be/english/dao/eng_home.htm):

According to the Thai Nationality Act (2535 B.E.), it is possible for a person born to either father or mother of Thai nationality, within or outside Thailand, to acquire Thai nationality.

To Apply for a Thai Birth Certificate

1. A child born to a Thai parent outside Thailand is entitled to acquire Thai nationality. The parents can apply for a birth certificate for their child at the Royal Thai Embassy in the country of birth. If a child is born in Belgium or Luxembourg, the parents can apply for a birth certificate at the Royal Thai Embassy in Brussels.

2. The following documents are required in order to obtain a Thai birth certificate:

- 2 copies of the Belgian birth certificate and its translation into Thai, both documents must be legalized by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Belgium,

Perhaps a Belgium or Luxembourgish citizen or long-term resident can fill me in here, but can birth in Belgium and Luxembourg entitle one automatically to citizenship in these countries? I understand that Birth in Ireland to parents who have legally immigrated to Ireland entitles the newborn to Irish citizenship. If so, then this official Thai government website is implying that one can have dual citizenship.

[samran]

great contribution eploy. We get enough questions on this issue. Pehaps its time for a permanent poster on this issue should be put at the top of this disussion group.

Some futher comment from the Nation.....

EDITORIAL: Citizenship debate: if it ain’t broke . . .

Published on Apr 21, 2004

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra made a mistake in asking his Malaysian counterpart Abdullah Ahmad Badawi to revoke the dual citizenship of a large number of Muslim Thais in the deep South as part of the government’s effort to suppress violence in the Muslim-majority region. The prime minister and his officials know full well that the majority of people in the border provinces are ethnic Malays who live among their clans and relatives in an area that was divided by the border that came to separate southern Thailand from northern Malaysia.

Such familial connections and kinship continue to exist long after Thailand and Malaysia demarcated their boundaries and divided these people into two nationalities. For many of these people, dual citizenship is a necessary convenience that suits their way of life and offers certain benefits.

Dual citizenship did not happen by accident. Malaysian politicians and officials first offered Malaysian citizenship and its attendant rights to Thais of Malay descent in the border provinces in exchange for political favour in the usually fiercely-contested elections in Malaysia’s northern border states. Malaysian politicians have the clear benefit of being able to count on the votes of those with dual citizenship.

Meanwhile, Thailand benefits from a healthy inflow of remittances from people who take advantage of their dual citizenship to seek jobs and a better standard of living in Malaysia. The growing popularity of Thai food there has spawned a large number of Thai food outlets in Malaysia over the past 10 years and attracted hordes of enterprising Thais, mostly ethnic Malays from the deep South.

According to a random survey conducted by this newspaper last month, Thai restaurant workers can expect to earn a fairly decent wage of 30 to 40 ringgit (Bt300 to Bt400) per day. Cooks can make Bt15,000 to Bt18,000 a month. Street vendors selling Thai food pull in as much as Bt20,000 a month.

The prime minister should realise that virtually no unskilled worker can expect to earn as much doing similar jobs in Thailand.

In principle, most of the workers and vendors obtain a renewable three-month work permit. But many of them work in Malaysia illegally. Malaysian authorities often target undocumented migrants in the restaurant business. Unless they have a Malaysian identity card, Thais looking to open a restaurant are required to either set up a joint venture with a Malaysian partner or register the restaurant under a Malaysian’s name. There have been many complaints from Thais of being cheated by these Malaysian partners.

Muslim Thais who have dual citizenship have no such problem. No reliable estimate has been made of how many citizens there are with dual nationality or how much money they send back home to southern Thailand, which has been neglected by Bangkok for decades. Big and beautiful houses that have cropped up in Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat in recent years are the fruits of the labour of dual nationals. Prince of Songkhla University’s Pattani campus estimated in a survey years ago that there were hundreds of thousands of dual nationals in the South. But nobody could really verify the figure since dual nationals are inclined to keep their status secret.

Thaksin hoped that his pet “smart ID card” project could help detect those who hold dual citizenship so that he could force them to choose one nationality.

Even if both Thai and Malaysian smart ID cards contain such biometric data as fingerprints, there will be no guarantee that the identification systems of the two countries will be compatible and whether it is a desirable thing for the two governments to be sharing personal data of their citizens.

Certainly, there are better and more effective ways to suppress violent crimes or terrorist activities in the deep South. The exchange of accurate intelligence on suspected separatists and terrorists should be enough if the Thai side has a clue whom to monitor. Kuala Lumpur has proved time and again its commitment to helping Bangkok combat separatism. Malaysia has handed over a number of Thai separatists or criminal suspects to Thai authorities after receiving convincing evidence against them.

There is absolutely no need to disturb the mostly positive people-to-people ties facilitated by dual nationality and the economic and social benefits that the arrangement brings through the free flow of cross-border, mutually-beneficial transactions.

[samran]

From the horses mouth.... a news article from MCOT where the foreign minister himself has implcitly said that there is nothing wrong with Dual Nationality. http://etna.mcot.net/query.php?nid=26932

Dual nationality talks likely to be focused on criminals

BANGKOK, Apr 12 (TNA) - Fears of Thailand stripping holders of dual Thai-Malaysian nationality of their Thai citizenship rights were quashed yesterday by Foreign Minister Surakiart Sathirathai, who stressed that talks between Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his Malaysian counterpart in Kuala Lumpur today on the emotive issue of dual nationality were likely to be focused only on criminals.

Speaking before Mr. Thaksin is due to travel to Malaysia for discussions with Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, Mr. Surakiart refused to be drawn on the agenda for the meeting, saying only that the topics under discussions would be chosen by the prime minister.

Nonetheless, he dropped his guard for long enough to hint that the talks would look at the development of towns in the southern border region, as agreed during the Malaysian prime minister's earlier visit to Thailand.

But the main thrust of the talks is likely to be the unrest in Thailand's southern border region, which has already seen four Malaysian tourists injured in an explosion.

Describing security cooperation between the two nations as being extremely good, Mr. Surakiart confirmed that the two prime ministers were likely to bring up the subject of citizens holding joint Thai-Malaysian nationality, a number of whom have been blamed by Thailand as being responsible for the violence.

Although he noted that Malaysian law did not permit dual nationality, the foreign minister stressed that most holders of dual citizenship were unlikely to be affected by outcomes of the talks.

"We are not focusing on general holders of dual nationality, but are, instead, only looking at crime", he said.

Noting that there were probably relatively few holders of dual citizenship involving in criminal activities, he said: "We will look at 3-4 methods to discuss with Malaysia…Our goal is only holders of dual citizenship involving in crime. This does not concern ordinary members of the public".

However, he conceded that both countries were not yet aware of how many holders of dual citizenship having involved in the southern arrest, or who precisely these people are.

His insistence that ordinary people would not be affected was echoed by Deputy Prime Minister Gen. Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, who stressed that holders of dual nationality had in many cases lived in Thailand for years.

Thailand would only come down heavily on people who posed a danger to both nations, he said, adding that only around 30-40 holders of dual nationality had involved in criminal activities. (TNA)--E006

[chairat]

What do you think about comment 46 on pantip?

http://www.pantip.com/cafe/rajdumnern/topi...2761521.html#46

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Furthermore, immigration officer ( Police lieutenant major charempong ) said that he did not sure whether dual nationality is illegal. Even immigration officer did not sure, how can people be sure? Amazing Thailand.

http://www.imm3.police.go.th/webboard/view.php?No=678

[dr_Pat_Pong]

What do you think about comment 46 on pantip?

http://www.pantip.com/cafe/rajdumnern/topi...2761521.html#46

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Furthermore, immigration officer ( Police lieutenant major charempong ) said that he did not sure whether dual nationality is illegal. Even immigration officer did not sure, how can people be sure? Amazing Thailand.

http://www.imm3.police.go.th/webboard/view.php?No=678

I'd be more inclined to believe the Thai Foreign Minister than a relatively low ranking policeman.

[eploy]

We Thais enjoy what one senior World Bank representative in Thailand described as “one of the best Constitutions in the world”. It is my firm belief that the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, B.E. 2540 (1997) does an excellent job in protecting the rights and liberties of Thai citizens.

For example, Sections 4, 26, 27 & 28 of the Constitution protect the “ . . . rights and liberties . . .” of the people. The National Assembly, the Council of Ministers, Courts, and all other state organizations and their employees (including immigration officials) are charged with protecting our rights and liberties. Some of these rights and liberties include: the right/obligation to vote (Section 68); the right to equal protection under the law (Sections 5 & 30); and most significantly, the guaranteed right that no Thai national shall be deported or prohibiting from entering the Kingdom (Section 36, Paragraph 3).

Admittedly, Section 29 does allow for the restrictions of rights in some instances, but these “shall not be imposed except . . . and only to the extent necessary and provided that it shall not affect the essential substances of such rights and liberties”. As stated in my previous post(s), neither I nor my British and Thai lawyer colleagues could find any provision in the Nationality Act that expressly or implicitly forbid dual Thai-foreign citizenship. We are also unaware of any subsequent Ministerial Notifications issued by the relevant Ministry, which explicitly bans dual citizenship. Furthermore, I could find no express or implied provisions in the Constitution, which prohibit dual citizenship. No prohibition of dual citizenship is mentioned in Chapter IV of the Constitution (Duties of the Thai People), and arguably holding 2 passports does not violate “good morals” as stated in Section 28. Besides, people are presumed innocent and with good morals and intentions until proven otherwise, especially in Thailand.

Because the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, any law, rule, regulation (or act of an immigration official in taking away your Thai passport or else depriving you of your rights as a Thai citizen), which is contrary to or inconsistent with this Constitution is unenforceable (Section 6).

As stated before, I am not a qualified lawyer so please do not accept what I say without consulting a qualified immigration lawyer, or at least studying the Thai Nationality Act, any subsequent Ministerial Notifications, and the Thai Constitution of 1997 for yourself as I have done. (Most of these laws, especially the Constitution, are available in Thai, English and bi-lingual editions at Asia Books. The bi-lingual editions are especially useful if your Thai is not strong, and you need to speak with Thai bureaucrats).

So what happens when you are ‘caught’ leaving or re-entering the country with both Thai and foreign passports? The immigration official will undoubtedly try to bully you into believing that you must either surrender your Thai or foreign passport. Of course, he has no right to take away your foreign passport since that document is the property of your other home country. Should he take it away, you should immediately report the matter to your other home country’s embassy. Ultimately, the foreign passport will probably be sent to your other home country’s embassy, which will then return it to you. Such confiscation will probably not constitute a renunciation of your foreign nationality since you had no intention of renouncing your foreign citizenship.

Alternatively, the immigration official will try to take away your Thai passport. He will then be in for a ‘big shock’ as you will by then know enough of the Thai Nationality Act and the Thai Constitution to debate the matter with him. On your side, you will hopefully have copies of the Nationality Act, any Ministerial Notifications, and the Thai Constitution on hand to make your case. The immigration official will have several colleagues and superiors who will try to aid him. Don’t let their uniforms, badges of rank, and cantankerous demeanor scare you. They are your civil servants, and your tax dollars pay their salaries. Do, however, be very polite and respectful, and try to smile. Don’t be cocky, but instead speak firmly as an informed citizen. The immigration official will have to show that taking away your passport and your citizenship (thereby disallowing all dual citizenship even to the elites) is “necessary” as stated in Section 29 of the Constitution. He may even have to provide you with an explanation for why he is taking away your Thai passport (try Section 58). Be sure to have him cite his legal sources. The immigration official should not have any written laws to support his position (unlike you), and may indeed be relying solely on what a mis-informed superior (one with poor reading comprehension skills) once told him without checking the law for himself. Of course, this is an inadequate reason to take away your Thai passport. He’ll have to do better than that!

In the end, the immigration official will probably so taken aback by your knowledge of Thai law and your ability to cite specific sections. Indeed, your knowledge of Thai law might even rival his (many government officials were management or political science majors and not law majors). He and his colleagues will most likely tire of arguing with you and simply waive you through. (Once again be polite but firm in your stance. Also, try not to make the official lose too much face as this will likely make him angry and uncooperative. You may even need to massage his ego despite the fact that he is wrong and you are right).

In a worst-case scenario, the matter may blow out of proportion and eventually make its way into the highest echelons of government where many members of the Thai elite and their relatives, including Phan Thong Tae Shinawatra, either quietly or openly hold dual citizenship. If so, you can rest assured that the corpus of written Thai law including the Constitution - the supreme law of the land, economic realities, the global trend toward recognizing/not prohibiting dual citizenship, etc. support your position and not theirs. You may even become a great champion for this cause and become famous. If so, please do not forget to share your experiences with the others members of this group, who will be extremely impressed and grateful to you.

[samran]

Comment 46 on Pantip is just saying that the Nationality law is written badly and there are sections which seem contradictory. That is nothing unusual when it comes to Thai law.

Best listen to the foreign minister.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Comment 46 on Pantip is just saying that the Nationality law is written badly and there are sections which seem contradictory. That is nothing unusual when it comes to Thai law.

Best listen to the foreign minister.

As ever old friend. we agree .

[samran]

Cheers to that Dr P, me thinks that a beer may be in order when I hit town in a couple of months don't you think!

Eploy, great informed contributions. Keep it up as you are helping to dispel some of the myths of this whole issue. Definetly helpful to many members of this forum with wives and kids who have dual passports who are told the opposite.

As for getting "caught" this has happend before to me at Sadao immigration many moons ago. They couldn't beleive a 6 foot 1 guy with farang features had a Thai PP. When they confronted me I naively admitted to having dual nationaity, at which point the proceeded to tell me that it was illegal. Not being familiar with the law, I smiled and said, well "if the Chavalit just offered a Thai PP to Tiger Woods why can't I have one". At that, he waived me through.

Thats why if I am asked now about it in Thailand, I lie, to save myself the hassel of saying "The nationality act of 2535 doesn't expressly forbid.......blah blah". But then again, I am rarely asked these days.

Appealing to the Thai class mentality seems to have an affect if you want it to.

[eploy]

Eploy, great informed contributions. Keep it up as you are helping to dispel some of the myths of this whole issue. Definetly helpful to many members of this forum with wives and kids who have dual passports who are told the opposite.

Thank you for your kind comments.  I just visited the US Embassy yesterday and was able to successfully apply for Consular Reports of Birth Abroad, Social Security Numbers and US Passports for my children.  When the US consular official asked to see my US passport, she noted that there were no Thai entry visas stamped into the book.  I told her that I had dual citizenship (i.e., carried 2 passports).  She said that this was "perfectly fine", and said that obviously my children do not need stamped US Passports to stay in Thailand since they could already stay in Thailand as Thai nationals.  Of course, she added that US Passports are necessary to enter into the US as US citizens, and that until I got these US passports my kids could only enter the US as Thai citizens.     

As for getting "caught" this has happend before to me at Sadao immigration many moons ago. They couldn't beleive a 6 foot 1 guy with farang features had a Thai PP. When they confronted me I naively admitted to having dual nationaity, at which point the proceeded to tell me that it was illegal. Not being familiar with the law, I smiled and said, well "if the Chavalit just offered a Thai PP to Tiger Woods why can't I have one". At that, he waived me through.

Good answer.  Alot of elite and not so elite Thais openly hold dual citizenship.  If Phan Thong Tae Shinawatra, the Jensen children, and other elites can legally have dual Thai-US citizenship, then others can legally hold dual Thai-foreign citizenship (including Thai-Malays).  Sections 5 & 30 of the Thai Constitution guarantee equal protection under Thai law.  There are provisions for "double standards" under Thai law.  Either the law should be applied equally to everyone, or the law should be abolished and applied to no one.  By the way, according to my understanding of the Thai Nationality Act, Tiger Woods may already qualify for actual Thai citizenship, and not just "honorary" Thai citizenship.  He does not need to get Chavalit's approval.  Tiger, however, may not wish to become a Thai citizen for his own personal reasons. 

Appealing to the Thai class mentality seems to have an affect if you want it to.

Yes, knowledge of one's rights and obligations under the law and the inclination to exercise/protect one's own rights is a very middle-class concept - one which Thai officials should share with the rest of us.

[eploy]

Doooh! I just noticed in my above posting, that I have misapplied the quote function and have quoted myself. This was not my intention. I wanted to quote Khun Samran, not myself. Sorry gang. Please forgive me, I am just a "Newbie".

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Doooh! I just noticed in my above posting, that I have misapplied the quote function and have quoted myself. This was not my intention. I wanted to quote Khun Samran, not myself. Sorry gang. Please forgive me, I am just a "Newbie".

We welcome your knowledgeable and erudite contributions, Your mistake was from oxygen deprivation being so tall

Samran we'll try for the shandy. Uni holidays alleady ?

[eploy]

Thank you for your kind comments.

By the way, I think it is Khun Samran who is 6 feet, 1 inches tall. I am only 5 feet 9.5 inches tall. (Don't drop that extra half inch)! Still, I do think I am oxygen deprived.