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The usefulness of "calories" as a measurement critically considered

Jingthing

By Jingthing
in I'm Too Fat Forum

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Jingthing Legendary Member

Jingthing

Posted
Posted

Quite a fascinating article here.

It's the most depth I've seen talking about the issues of using CALORIES as a measurement.

But of course it goes into other areas of interest to those curious about modern scientific research touching on overweight and obesity.

Such as gut bacteria of course.

But the focus is CALORIES, so posting it here.

None of these alternatives is ready to replace the calorie tomorrow. Yet the need for a new system of food accounting is clear.

http://digg.com/2016/calorie-unit-broken

robblok Star Member

robblok

Posted
Posted (edited)

Nice bit of reading, but they are not saying calories are flawed they are saying that it can be inaccurate because of how lazy companies are with their labels (among other things). For me for instance the fitbit gave massive caloric burn and based on the food I ate i should have been loosing fat by the KG. However this was not the case. The problem with many of those devices is that they are programmed to be quite positive (showing you burned a lot more). The same goes for fitness equipment, the only one that is really good is the concept rower.

I counted calories for quite some time so i got a good idea of what foods are caloric dense and what foods are not. I can also see how much I eat in general and it has been a great tool for me. But accurate.. nope. But also the human body does not work that way, i have had my body hold on to fat for a while.. then it turned watery or soft (was a good article by Lyle McDonald on that) and then after a bit i lost the water and the fat was gone. We are not robot's it does not go linear.

My advice is always sticking to a program for a while before changing it, because the results can come delayed. For anyone who often weighs himself knows that there are quite some variations even if you weigh at the same time of the day all the time. So you would also need to watch the trend and if you exercise you would have to use a tape measure too.

I have looked (in vain) for a dexa scan here in Thailand because I want an accurate estimate of my fat, and I would pay for it and do it a few times a year to really keep track of progress. Weight is not that important, the muscle fat ratio is.

Did you read what hey said that scientist say obesity is not caused by genetics ? (or at least these scientist are saying that there are always conflicting opinions).

Yes they talked about gut bacteria again, I feel they should do more research in how you can change it yourself (i doubt they will as medicine is far more profitable)

But I have to add caloric counting has assisted me more then a bit in loosing my weight and staying on a healthy weight. If I look at others who track their calories too you see that it helps. Sure its a lot of work and often bothersome but it works. After a while you can stop with it (if you eat similar meals often) and you really get an idea about what is good / bad. This does not work of course if your eating in restaurants a lot (but that is a bad idea away because you never know what they put in your food). The bad idea of eating in restaurants can really make your diet fail (once your at a good weight you can eat in restaurants at times but doing it often is setting yourself up for failure, unless your really good at choosing your meals based on caloric value. I tend to overeat in restaurants far less so when I prepare my food myself)

Edited by robblok
Briggsy Diamond Member

Briggsy

Posted
Posted (edited)

I counted calories for several weeks and then in occasional 2-week periods for a couple of years afterwards.

It was by far the most effective way of losing weight/reducing fat.

As Rob states in his final paragraph, it is time-consuming under all circumstances and almost an impossible task if others are preparing your food.

Edited by Briggsy
robblok Star Member

robblok

Posted
Posted

I have to add, I have stopped looking at exercise as how much i burn or looking at how much a normal person burns. I just counted calories till i found an amount that kept me at the same weight and then took less if I wanted to loose weight. It then worked quite well because once I found the number that worked for me using that number to loose weight did work.

What did not work were all those formulas based on body-weight muscle ect.. they are for average persons.. unfortunately I burn a lot less. I just found what worked and stuck with it.

Jingthing Legendary Member

Jingthing

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  • Author
Posted (edited)

The article does suggest that calories are a flawed measurement system.

The TITLE could not be more clear about that: THE CALORIE IS BROKEN.

Consider this quote:

Even if the calorie counts themselves were accurate, dieters like Haelle and Nash would have to contend with the significant variations between the total calories in the food and the amount our bodies extract. These variations, which scientists have only recently started to understand, go beyond the inaccuracies in the numbers on the back of food packaging. In fact, the new research calls into question the validity of nutrition science’s core belief that a calorie is a calorie.

So even if you knew the actual calorie count EXTERNALLY in the food, which you don't, you won't know the REAL amount of calories it would be for YOU. That's the CORE of this article. Searching for a more relevant measurement that actually relates to what you are actually using in YOUR body. We don't have it yet. Serious scientists seem to be seeking new ways of looking at these measurements that might make calorie measurement obsolete.

It's OK to question orthodoxy of beliefs that we grew up with without fear. For example, most people who have looked at BMI conclude it is a very flawed measure of overweight and obesity, yet it is still the most commonly referred to.

Edited by Jingthing
tominbkk Platinum Member

tominbkk

Posted
Posted

I prefer to look at macros, Protein / Fat / Carbs, in conjunction with a caloric range that I know I can lose in. On heavier workout days I'll have around 2000 cals, on more sedentary days around 1500. I try to keep my macros around protein-20%, carbs-10% and fats-70%. If I do this I consistently lose. Once you get keto adapted its easy to stick on. Every couple weeks I'll have a cheat day and have some pasta or a couple pieces of pizza, some chocolate or such. Then back to keto. I find it resets me. Also I don't miss 'cheat' foods much because I know I can have them on my cheat day.

tominbkk Platinum Member

tominbkk

Posted
Posted

I counted calories for several weeks and then in occasional 2-week periods for a couple of years afterwards.

It was by far the most effective way of losing weight/reducing fat.

As Rob states in his final paragraph, it is time-consuming under all circumstances and almost an impossible task if others are preparing your food.

Using the MyFitnessPal app it isn't too hard. But I agree, I tend to like to cook on my own or see exactly what i going into my meal. As I don't do fruit, sugar, beer, bread. rice. pasta or noodles though I can have a pretty good idea what I'm eating any given moment.

robblok Star Member

robblok

Posted
Posted

The article does suggest that calories are a flawed measurement system.

The TITLE could not be more clear about that: THE CALORIE IS BROKEN.

Consider this quote:

Even if the calorie counts themselves were accurate, dieters like Haelle and Nash would have to contend with the significant variations between the total calories in the food and the amount our bodies extract. These variations, which scientists have only recently started to understand, go beyond the inaccuracies in the numbers on the back of food packaging. In fact, the new research calls into question the validity of nutrition science’s core belief that a calorie is a calorie.

So even if you knew the actual calorie count EXTERNALLY in the food, which you don't, you won't know the REAL amount of calories it would be for YOU. That's the CORE of this article. Searching for a more relevant measurement that actually relates to what you are actually using in YOUR body. We don't have it yet. Serious scientists seem to be seeking new ways of looking at these measurements that might make calorie measurement obsolete.

It's OK to question orthodoxy of beliefs that we grew up with without fear. For example, most people who have looked at BMI conclude it is a very flawed measure of overweight and obesity, yet it is still the most commonly referred to.

I see that differently

We can know the exact amount of calories.. the only thing that varies is how much our body uses of it or burns of it. The calorie is a measuring unit.. what our body does with it varies.. that does not mean that the measuring unit is wrong.

Just look at it at a liter of fuel.. one car can go further as an other on it.. that means how good an engine performs..

Now switch engine for body.

Just my view.

Jingthing Legendary Member

Jingthing

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Well, I see two or three variables here.

The external calories, most times we don't really know the truth even if it's labelled.
Our internal variables specific to us as individuals.

Variable tendencies with specific foods. For example, almonds, information was stated that generally people don't use the full calories in them.

So that's messy and not even close to precise.

But I think the article does conclude not so great, but the best we've got NOW.

robblok Star Member

robblok

Posted
Posted

Well, I see two or three variables here.

The external calories, most times we don't really know the truth even if it's labelled.

Our internal variables specific to us as individuals.

Variable tendencies with specific foods. For example, almonds, information was stated that generally people don't use the full calories in them.

So that's messy and not even close to precise.

But I think the article does conclude not so great, but the best we've got NOW.

Its always going to be like that because there are many variables but its the best we can do now. But in all that time its a good measure and after using it for an estimate you can later learn to fine tune it to your own body.

I stopped really counting for quite a while but because I know the general figures I know what i can consume. Still you can never get it good on a day to day base.

I use it as an indication but I now know that if i take around xxx cals i stay on my weight and if i take more I gain. But in general i eat healthy foods and I assume they are processed by my body the same. Even if not by varying it a bit it evens out over a longer period. Plus its hard to measure how much you loose short term anyway because how much water you hold at a given time influences that and you need to look at a trend and measurements.

Id kill for a dexa scan (for fat) or a bod pod. I would love to use one for a few time a year to really know what I am doing.

Jingthing Legendary Member

Jingthing

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I don't count calories and have had good success not counting calories. Over my life in various "diet" attempts I have of course counted calories and hated doing it. I think it can be useful for some people, to add awareness of different foods. But I'm old enough now, I have a very good idea about the foods I'm eating already just by LOOKING at them. Whether they are good nutrition, whether I'm eating a reasonable portion, whether they will satisfy me so I eat less later, whether they will promote weight gain, etc.

I know some people think counting calories is worth it. Great. There are different approaches for different people. There is not one path to success or failure in reaching personal weight control goals.

robblok Star Member

robblok

Posted
Posted

I don't count calories and have had good success not counting calories. Over my life in various "diet" attempts I have of course counted calories and hated doing it. I think it can be useful for some people, to add awareness of different foods. But I'm old enough now, I have a very good idea about the foods I'm eating already just by LOOKING at them. Whether they are good nutrition, whether I'm eating a reasonable portion, whether they will satisfy me so I eat less later, whether they will promote weight gain, etc.

I know some people think counting calories is worth it. Great. There are different approaches for different people. There is not one path to success or failure in reaching personal weight control goals.

I am where you are now.. I don't really count anymore (only when I add new standard meals to my program then I check them). Otherwise I know because I counted for a long time.

Jingthing Legendary Member

Jingthing

Posted
  • Author
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Garcinia cambogia? Why yes I think I've tried that. For weight control purposes you generally take in pill form an hour before meals rather than fresh fruit.
Jingthing Legendary Member

Jingthing

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  • Author
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Just look at the topics in this "im too fat Forum" its among the topics.
Yep we don't need another GC discussion.
Thian Gold Member

Thian

Posted
Posted
Just look at the topics in this "im too fat Forum" its among the topics.
Yep we don't need another GC discussion.

I found it, you were happy with that cambogia but still need to loose weight?

Gut bacteria can be cleaned on Samui with coffee clisma's. I've seen a video about that, they have dedicated resorts for it...with nurses who fill your intestines with many litres of coffee....allready tried that as well?

Thian Gold Member

Thian

Posted
Posted

No. This topic is about the usefulness of calories as a measurement. Period.

In Europe they say 2500 KJ for an adult person a day right? That's the general rule.

So it doesn't matter if you're a lazy grandma or a sporting construction worker who works overtime as well......

I have never understood how they can say such ridiculous things in the developed world.

They even want to start taxing french fry's because "they are so unhealthy". I know plenty people who won't get fat from eating them because they burn all that energy easy. They better start counting the time they sit on their butt and tax that.

People who are fat just ate too much energy without burning it. But there's hope, if you burn more then you eat you'll loose all that fat. Don't need to count it except the hours you are moving your body.

I am also addicted to cheese but if i don't eat it for several weeks i miss all the energy it gives and become as lazy as a Th.....never mind, i know where the airport is.

Edgehog net Rookie Member

Edgehog net

Posted
Posted

You should consider calories in non-fiber carbs(rice, grains, bread etc.) because of the threshold on the raise of the insulin level.

Calories from fat and meat could be ignored as long as you hit 2000 mark or whatever it is for you.

If you know how much calories are in the food and you know that food is non-fiber carbs(basically sugar) you should not eat more than 20 calories in a time otherwise you trigger your insulin level and push the rest of calories(including from fat and meats) in your fat cells.

And then why would you use calories for that if the grams are better measurement? :)

  • 4 weeks later...
tominbkk Platinum Member

tominbkk

Posted
Posted

Much more important to look at how foods affect your insulin levels, which in turn affects whether energy is burned or stored as fat. I suggest reading or listening to Gary Taubes' "Why We Get Fat". He's a great writer and his book is pretty much irrefutable.

tominbkk Platinum Member

tominbkk

Posted
Posted
Just look at the topics in this "im too fat Forum" its among the topics.
Yep we don't need another GC discussion.

I found it, you were happy with that cambogia but still need to loose weight?

Gut bacteria can be cleaned on Samui with coffee clisma's. I've seen a video about that, they have dedicated resorts for it...with nurses who fill your intestines with many litres of coffee....allready tried that as well?

I tried the colon cleanse before on Samui, but the enemas were self-conducted, no nurse. It cleans you out alright. I prefer now to use the Master Cleanse, if I want to fast. I just got off a 7 day cleanse. No enemas or colonics involved, I don't really think they are that good for you, and I get the same results from the Master Cleanse. You drop weight and inflammation quickly, and it really makes you alert and feel 'cleansed'. Reduces my overall appetite when I go back on solids, and I crave and eat healthier foods overall.

Tolley Platinum Member

Tolley

Posted
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I highly recommend doing liver flushes in conjunction with coffee enemas as a detox a couple of times a year.

Felt fantastic after doing them.

Wrong Turn Silver Member

Wrong Turn

Posted
Posted

I prefer to look at macros, Protein / Fat / Carbs, in conjunction with a caloric range that I know I can lose in. On heavier workout days I'll have around 2000 cals, on more sedentary days around 1500.

A lot of the people that lift weights, myself included don't count calories much.

I do consider my macro ratio.

Good article and many people don't focus so much on counting calories (as Rob and others noted how flawed and time consuming it is).

The gut bacteria will be studied, researched, and published more and more, IMO.

Wrong Turn Silver Member

Wrong Turn

Posted
Posted

Much more important to look at how foods affect your insulin levels, which in turn affects whether energy is burned or stored as fat. I suggest reading or listening to Gary Taubes' "Why We Get Fat". He's a great writer and his book is pretty much irrefutable.

Agree 100% - speaking only for me.

The article noted that 'calories are reduced when you put cooked rice in the fridge.'

I assume - think - that putting the cooked white rice in the fridge reduces its GI index. It's a fact that if you put boiled/cooked pasta in the fridge overnight there is a reduction in GI.

If I eat white rice, I blow up like a balloon. My face, and my gut.

Same with many white breads.

tominbkk Platinum Member

tominbkk

Posted
Posted

Much more important to look at how foods affect your insulin levels, which in turn affects whether energy is burned or stored as fat. I suggest reading or listening to Gary Taubes' "Why We Get Fat". He's a great writer and his book is pretty much irrefutable.

Agree 100% - speaking only for me.

The article noted that 'calories are reduced when you put cooked rice in the fridge.'

I assume - think - that putting the cooked white rice in the fridge reduces its GI index. It's a fact that if you put boiled/cooked pasta in the fridge overnight there is a reduction in GI.

If I eat white rice, I blow up like a balloon. My face, and my gut.

Same with many white breads.

I've heard that too. Same with potatoes, eat them cold. But I can't eat that stuff without going out of control. As long as I avoid simple white carbs and get them from dark veggies, I have no problem controlling my appetite and eating.

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
tropo Star Member

tropo

Posted
Posted

Much more important to look at how foods affect your insulin levels, which in turn affects whether energy is burned or stored as fat. I suggest reading or listening to Gary Taubes' "Why We Get Fat". He's a great writer and his book is pretty much irrefutable.

Agree 100% - speaking only for me.

The article noted that 'calories are reduced when you put cooked rice in the fridge.'

I assume - think - that putting the cooked white rice in the fridge reduces its GI index. It's a fact that if you put boiled/cooked pasta in the fridge overnight there is a reduction in GI.

If I eat white rice, I blow up like a balloon. My face, and my gut.

Same with many white breads.

I don't know why people want to have endless debates about Glycemic Indexes. Just get a glucometer, man up and draw some blood to see exactly how you respond to various meals. Sometimes you get exactly the opposite of what you'd expect from GI lists.

If I had to eat potatoes or rice cold, I wouldn't bother. White rice goes dry in the fridge and you need to microwave it to make it edible. Brown rice stays more hydrated in the fridge.

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