Hormone Replacement Therapy?

[SailingHome]

I have been using "Big-3" hormone replacement therapy for about 6 months now. This seems way better than just the Testosterone injections, gels, and patches. As a research Ph.D. always interested in men's health and longevity with quality of life, this stuff fascinates me.

It is oral. I can take as much or as little as I choose when I want to just like gel. Unlike normal HRT, this contains not only Testosterone, but DHT, and Mesterolone. Mesterolone does many, many things as I am reading about.

For one, Mesterolone keeps the natural HPTAxis of the body functioning so that with exogeneous Testosterone treatment, the users testicles do not stop functioning, shrivel up, and go back up inside like a pre-pubescent boy - this means your natural Testo levels are not eliminated and you need less treatment mg per day. It also helps prevent the Testosterone from becoming oEstrogen (too much Estrogen in men is obviously bad.) On top of that, it binds to Sex Hormone Binding Gobulin (SHGB) so that more Testo is free to be used by the body, not bound up and unusable, so another positive factor in needing less mg per day. Further, studies of Mesterolone show that it can increase sperm count (and it has in me, according to tests).

When I take one of these, I get the normal drive and energy as Testo gels, injections, and patches, but also my sex drive seems to jump through the roof. Unlike with just Testo, the DHT allows me to start feeling an erection without manual stimulation, just visual, so like a pubescent boy in class, I am just ready (yeah, I still need E1 or Papaverine to get a full erection, but that is another problem unrelated to hormones.)

So, I want feedback. Is this "Big-3" pill working for you? Are you using any form of HRT and if so how is it working? If you want to keep your story private or know how to get this from your doctor or pharmacy, please PM me.

Thanks for any feedback!

[inbangkok]

I have no clue what this is.... I just Googled it and still can't find anything on it. But yes, I recently began TRT about 4 months ago. Absolutely the best decision I have made in recent memory. Cannot even describe how my quality of life has improved.

[SailingHome]

I have no clue what this is.... I just Googled it and still can't find anything on it. But yes, I recently began TRT about 4 months ago. Absolutely the best decision I have made in recent memory. Cannot even describe how my quality of life has improved.

I have to concur on life alteration in positive ways. Big-3 is just the brand name of the company I buy it from. The name was used years ago in the atheletic world as shorthand to reference Testosterone, a DHT, and Mesteronlone (Proviron brand) in one injection or oral and the company is now trading on the name. No Web site for the company as TiT and it would be unlawful to advertise. I'm paying about 3000 baht per month depending on dosage and if I order quantity. More if I buy it at their hospital pharmacy location. About what I paid for Testosterone alone in USA.

My problem with Testo only is the way it "aromatizes" to oEstrogen. As I tease my lady friends, my boobs are bigger than yours! Since the mesterolone component helps prevent that, I am way healthier. Since I am finally producing sperm for the first time in my life, maybe I can work on having kids.

I should also ask of responders, what are you paying for your HRT therapy? Is it still working after 12 months or seriously tapered off as normal Testo treatment seems to? Do you have any lab results you can share anonymously with me?

[inbangkok]

I have used 2 different testosterone brands and have not noticed a difference between the two. The first was Bayer.... And the one I am using now is an Indian generic that is approved by the Thai FDA for import. It's under 1,000 baht per month. Can't really comment on the long term part as it has only been 4 months but as with anything drug.... Your body could get used to it and might require a bit more sooner or later. As for the testosterone aromatizing.... Yes.... Very common problem but is prevented by taking Arimidex (I have another thread I just started about this). The Arimidex is far more expensive then the testosterone.

I would be concerned about what you are taking only for the fact that so many steroids are hepa toxic to the liver when taken orally. But I have no idea about the ones you are taking. All my research has led me to believe that injections are still the gold standard for TRT and truly work the best.

[SailingHome]

Injections are the standard for 1x a month, 2x a month, weekly, etc. Injection or oral is same hepatoxicity for each no matter what, sadly. However, in this case, injectable (unless it is 3x a day) is more hepatoxic as esters are added to the chain to make it last longer - each pass through the liver removes a carbon chain until such time as it is down to the base atom of Testosterone at which point it is then eliminated. I am guessing

you are on Cyponate or Enethanate?

Testosterone base (oral or injectable, IE gets only 1 oass through the liver) is about as toxic as any common non-prescription med like Paracetamol. Oxandrolone (lowest liver toxic DHT) is in this pill, and Mesterolone are all approved for long term therapy by US and European FDA. Not sure about Thailand, though generally they seem to follow USA.

[inbangkok]

I have to say I have never heard of injectable testosterone being hepa toxic. Can you link some info on this? And yes... Currently using testosterone enethanate. All the studies and info I have read all seem to conclude that testosterone E, C, and P.... As well as the blended ones all work essentially the same.

Edited February 12, 2016 by inbangkok

[SailingHome]

Probably should not paste links here, but a google search of Principles and Practices of Endocrinology +esters +liver has many results about how the liver removes the esters, and the basics of endocrinology point out that all medicines are processed by the liver.

Prop is less esterfication than Cyp and Enth, but, as such shorter life. Essentially the same, yes, because they are each raw Testo with different carbon chains added to increase life. Sustanon is a blend of 4 esters so a monthly (preferably every 2 weeks) injection can be done. Orals are not estered, same as OTC paracetamol for instance, thus for longest effect need to be taken 3x a day. Mesterolone, however, despite the short half life, has effects for 24 hours - this is like many blood pressure medicines where the medicine is out of the system but the effect continues (not to be confused with half life.)

You are correct though. Few hormones approved by the FDA are very hepatoxic (liver toxic.) Most will make liver panel tests look bad, however, as well as Cholesterol, yet no additional heart disease or liver failure has been attributed scientifically to hormones - hormones approved by the FDA are almost exact duplicates of natural human hormones, exceot for the esters to make them more bio-available and 19-carbon position alteration to allow a first pass through the liver so the bofy can use DHT directly.

[HauptmannUK]

Is testosterone gel such at Testogel or Testim available in Thailand? This is applied daily to the skin.

[SailingHome]

Is testosterone gel such at Testogel or Testim available in Thailand? This is applied daily to the skin.

Not sure if FDA approved. Check the links in this forum for the Web site that lists approved meds and brands. It is, regardless, available. Let me know in private message if you need a list of pharmacies I have compiled.

One hospital and one Bangkok-based mail pharmacy also have the Big-3 as a gel instead of oral.

[inbangkok]

Is testosterone gel such at Testogel or Testim available in Thailand? This is applied daily to the skin.

I think they have "Androgel" here but it is ridiculously expensive..... Unless you are terrified of needles, I would highly recommend injections.

[SailingHome]

My compiled list shows low range price in Bangkok for Androgel (generic) in a bottle as Testosterone is 1200 baht for about 30 days, as Big-3 about 1500 baht, as Big-3+A (including Aromasin for those with high sensitivity to oEstrogen) is about 1700. About 300 baht more if want with Aloe for sensitive skin. Another aprox 300 baht for versions with quick-release transdermal for sports folks. About double price for adding Nandrolone base for joint, tendon, and tissue repair properties. Hospital prices about 5x, of course. Retail space pharmacies (Sukhumvit, Nana, etc.) about 2x price. Vat not included, of course, on the low-end, but shipping is. I prefer oral to coating my body with lotions or glycerine gel. Don't mind injections, but DHT and Mesterolone are short acting as injections and I need those anyway, so why inject if I am already taking pills is my way.

Good night, all. Try to respond to any posts this weekend, but it is V-day weekend. Thanks so much for sharing info!

[SailingHome]

Happy Valentine's all. I'm traveling to the beach with my lady, so have some time to answer all the PM's I am getting on this. Apologies for delay.

Some things of note... We were discussing esters above which make medicines last longer in the body. Oral, of course, has no esters, and as Testosterone us called Testosterone Base or Testosterone Undeconate. It is pure Testosterone the exact same molecule produced in the body and is made by the body or lab from cholesterol. You can see why vegan and vegetarian diets lead to low Testosterone and why many heart disease patients who over-do their cholesterol dieting have low Testosterone.

On a mg basis, it really does not take much to notice a difference. As little as 5mg over a 24 hour period in a patch can make a huge difference in libido and energy - this is the Testosterone base added to a trandermal agent to make it absorb through the skin. In injections, about 100mg per week is often the starting dose - this is esterfied so it takes much more as much of the weight is the carbon chain of esters. Orally, since the oral route is inneficient at absorption of any medicine, mineral, vitamin, etc. it takes about 40mg per capsule to feel a difference, and it can me taken 1 to 4 times per day.

Personally, I use the 100mg capsules. I like the extra boost and drive, the clarity of thinking, etc. Big-3 also has DHT in the form of Oxandrolone and Mesterolone which has the properties described above. As a combination, these 3 are a reference standard for covering all the bases with the least side effects.

While I take considerably more than most men, please realize I have complications. With Parkinson's disease, muscle tone is vital and not losing muscle when I am too ill to exercise is important. Oxandrolone is very effective to prevent muscle wasting when I just sit or lay around for months on end, and my muscle mass actually increases since I am feeding my body foods that create dopamine and which happen to be best for feeding muscle as well as a bonus. Further, I need more "oomph" to be active and the mental clarity I get from Testosterone. Then the Mesterolone does it's work lowering my SHGB and keeping my gonads functioning. As studies show, the more intimacy and exercise a Parkinson's patient gets, the slower the progression of the disease and the higher quality of life. Another bonus of the three forms of hormone is the sense of calm and centeredness I feel, which is rare in Parkinson's disease patients due the lack of balance of neurotransmitters causing higher epinephrine levels. So, as a man over 40 who can't eat a perfect diet, can't always exercise, has neurochemistry issues, etc. I count on this combination for my overall health and quality of life - perhaps even quantity of life.

Using myself as a model, other Parkinson's patients I know, and any data I can collect from other men (aninymously, I keep no names, only stats) I plan to publish a paper or 6.

Ok... I will answer all the questions in PM now about how to buy all 3 in one capsule or transdermal.

Thanks Again!

[KarenBravo]

Can this be bought over the counter, or, is it strictly prescription?

[SailingHome]

Can this be bought over the counter, or, is it strictly prescription?

I saw a doctor at Sukhumvit hospital initially to verify my research, but their pharmacy was too expensive for my pension. I began buying the three hormones seperately OTC from pharmacies in Bangkok (expensive) and other cities until I discovered the company with the Big-3 brand is affiliated with the hospital (so they told me) but by mail is quite cheap. Since then, some pharmacies on Sukhumvit, near Nana, etc. have carried it off and on at about 2x the mail price, usually as rub-on gel.

If I am reading forum rules correctly I am not supposed to give company names and contacts here, but I can in private message here. I'm happy to help anyone, but rhose that tell me age and current HRT therapy and whether it is working for them (if taking) or why they want will get more of my attention and time since I am gathering data to publish.

[SailingHome]

Ah... the big questions so far in private mails to me besides the list of local pharmacies (and some guys inquiring from Europe, Americas, and Island countries)...

* Oral to be taken with food? Yes, preferably, as that helps the hormone be absorbed better. No reports or journals or publications or studies I can find on it giving heartburn or digestive problems. I have never experienced any nausea or anything.

* Safe for prostate cancer patients? NO! Prostate cancer and hormone do NOT play good together. An advantage of oral therapy is the ability to stop and within hours no more extrogeneous hormone is floating around. Have your PSA tests done 24 hours later or even same day in some cases.

* Injections are better? Depends on the person. Being injections are usually every 2 weeks or less, and the way ester work, you likely will experience a boost 3 days after injection then be in a gradually lowering state, then perhaps even be low feeling for days before it is built up again. Those at risk of prostate problems should avoid injections as it takes months to be undetectable after stopping. Atheletes inject the every 2 week version every 3 days in smaller doses to keep steady blood levels. Oral gives a boost any time wanted and can be taken often enough to keep steady levels. Gels, creams, and pathces are fairly steady, but no option to stop quickly and no boost within minutes if you need one.

* Liver tests: Yes, HRT will affect liver test results. The tests will show stress on the liver, but not liver damage. Stress CAN lead to damage over time, however the FDA approved doses show no indication of liver damage regardless of type of administration even over lifetime therapy.

Pricing: See previous posts for aome examples. Since it is 3 hormones, it costs more than just Testosterone therapy. However, those taking ONLY testosterone are taking a big risk with oEstrogen, HPTAxis damage, etc. and as a previous posting person said, Arimidex costs much more than Testosterone. The blend of 3 is highly competitive. Only you can decide if your quality of life and health are worth about 1700 baht per month or more.

Keep your stats and questions coming!

[Nath14]

Hello could anyone give me some advice in finding arimidex or another ai here in thailand. Whilst finding test etc seems easy tried so many places and cant find ai's. Had my bloods drawn and e2 is significantly elevated and as i dont return home for another 4 weeks obtaining some would be highly beneficial.

Thanks guys

[Sheryl]

It requires a prescription and is available only in hospital pharmacies

 

I assume you are using this to reduce estrogen conversion while on T replacement. Best to see a doctor specializing in T replacement therapy.

[Insider777]

Mesterolone is also known as Proviron and is a DHT derivative.  While it will definitely give a boost to Libido...  just be aware that it can also cause you to lose hair quickly with that extra DHT in your system if you are prone to Male Pattern Baldness.

 

I have friends that are bodybuilders that are now advocating "low dose" testosterone injections at just 10mg per day.  I know it sounds like a small dose...  but these guys swear by it.  From my research...  this low dose allows your body to become more sensitive to androgens so the testosterone becomes more effective.

 

Also from my research...  it is good to find a dosage that does not require a AI such as Arimidex to control estrogen if possible.  Studies have shown that although an AI is effective at lowering estrogen...  it also lowers estrogen in the brain which is undesirable.  This can cause brain fog and a host of other side effects if you are not careful.

 

Many of the top docs are now advocating taking testosterone sub q.  This would be similar to an insulin injection into fat rather than into the muscle.  By administering your test sub q...  there tends to be less aromatization into estrogen.  Many guys have been able to come off AIs completely by using this method.

 

I am an HRT patient myself and plan on experimenting with low dose test sub q to see how it works out.  It has been a nightmare to try and control estrogen using Arimidex or Extremestan.  Unfortunately...  my body is very sensitive and I seem to have a very narrow range in which I would consider the "sweet spot" for my E2.

 

That said...  most guys over 40 have low testosterone.  Most of these same guys have high estrogen.  The latest research shows that this combination is linked to cancer and a host of other issues.  I am definitely an advocate of hormone replacement.

 

 

 

[NEILFOUCHER]

need  advice Hormone replacement therapy and trimix & Prostaglandin E1 (Alprostadil). Steroids

[Sheryl]

Trimix is not HRT. Totally different use/action.

 

It is also not currently available in Thailand though it is possible some of the larger hospitals and anti-aging clinics import it.

 

By "steroids" what do you mean? Testosterone or other? Testosterone does not correct impotance or erectile dysfunction, rather may help if the issue is libido which is an altogether different matter, and then mainly in men whose natural T levels are low.

 

It sounds lie you would benefit from consultation with a doctor specializing in male sexual health, impotence and erectile dysfunction etc.

 

Where in Thailand are you?

[ImNewHere18]

Would love to hear an update on this topic. Wondering all is well?