Land in wifes name, where do I get the lease drawn up?

[georgemandm]

You can lease or get an usufruct from her mother but not from your wife if you are legally married.

Not correct. I have an usufruct from my wife duly registered at the land office

How do you reconcile that with item #6 in post #22?

I'm not asking to be a wise ass, I am curious. I have heard the same, that any contract between married folks in Thailand is problematic.

Can anyone shed some light?

If the usufruct is issued by the wife it becomes a marital asset and she is entitled to half upon divorce.

Yes you are right but if not married what happens . I know she has to get out that is why you should not get married unless you want to .

[sometimewoodworker]

You can lease or get an usufruct from her mother but not from your wife if you are legally married.

Not correct. I have an usufruct from my wife duly registered at the land office

How do you reconcile that with item #6 in post #22?

I'm not asking to be a wise ass, I am curious. I have heard the same, that any contract between married folks in Thailand is problematic.

Can anyone shed some light?

If the usufruct is issued by the wife it becomes a marital asset and she is entitled to half upon divorce.

You clearly do not understand the difference between assets acquired during marriage and items given to one person by another.

I think you do not understand what an usufruct is or does.

It does not have to have a monetary value, and it is not divisible.

[MaeJoMTB]

Assuming all the negative replies are right and when the house is completed she kicks me out, at least I will know why she has been staying with me for the last 3-4 years, But she would be the loser as well with no apparent income. I would have lost very little (what I can afford to lose).and I could move on as in the past. But she could carry on with me and the good life and all the holidays abroad and to the UK and benefit from all my Thai assets when I die.

I'm not the world's greatest expert, but women (in general) don't seem to think like that.

They get upset, and you're out.

I'm not all that bothered about losing a woman, easily replaceable, but I really don't like losing my home, and all my stuff.

Which is the way things usually work out.

"I want you out of my house now!"

What yer gonna do, wait till they call the police or their family?

Best not to drive off in her car/mc either, they report it stolen ......

As for your 'Thai assets' .... I think you'll find they're already hers.

Divorced men tend to end up with 50% or less, Dead men own no assets!

Edited February 19, 2016 by MaeJoMTB

[sometimewoodworker]

. On a more positive note if things work out and I could adapt to village life with my wife we would have a house all built and paid for and have more money available for holidays abroad (wifey wants to have a holiday in Japan).

Be careful not to take her to Tokyo in the winter as she may decide she wants to stay there SWMBO found that she really likes the Japanese winter.

[slipperylobster]

Here is a thought...something I was thinking about doing myself.

Instead of buying from the mom, why not have her pawn it to you. You must get the Chanote. Must people in my wife's family already pawned their property and..since the lender really just wants their money back....the pawnee usually just finds a buyer and sells at a higher price. They pay off the pawn, all parties go to a bank/lawyer and transfer the title to the new buyer. The price is inflated, so interest on the pawn is paid to the pawner (plus the original loan). This is not what I want for myself.

If mom has a chanote.....tell her she can pawn the property to you and your wife at a lower price. She can buy it back if she ever gets money. (most cannot). If no Chanote...don't buy it.and don't lease it. Leasing would be a bottomless pit, as she could continue racking up loans. My guess is that the mom has trouble paying creditors.

If I am wrong, and she has not already racked up interest on a bad loan/mortgage/pawn....then why would she not just let you build on it? It is, after all, staying in the family, and the house improves the value of the property.

[chiang mai]

Not correct. I have an usufruct from my wife duly registered at the land office

How do you reconcile that with item #6 in post #22?

I'm not asking to be a wise ass, I am curious. I have heard the same, that any contract between married folks in Thailand is problematic.

Can anyone shed some light?

If the usufruct is issued by the wife it becomes a marital asset and she is entitled to half upon divorce.

You clearly do not understand the difference between assets acquired during marriage and items given to one person by another.

I think you do not understand what an usufruct is or does.

It does not have to have a monetary value, and it is not divisible.

Tell me again who doesn't know or understand what:

I have an usufruct, I have been a proponent of the same for many years.

If the usufruct is granted by the wife, to a husband during the course of marriage, the usufruct is seen to be a vehicle for proxy ownership and it is also recognised as a marital asset that must be divided upon divorce, typically through nullifying the usufruct.

If you are in doubt about these things, go see a decent lawyer.

EDIT TO ADD:

"Section 1469 (laws governing property between husband and wife) does apply and when you would divorce the usufruct could be simply terminated by a court as part of the division of assets. After your marriage in Thailand, under Thai matrimonial law, personal and jointly owned marital property between husband and wife is governed by the statutory system of sections 1465 to 1493 Civil and Commercial Code, therefore any agreements between husband and wife made during the marriage affecting their assets (in conflict with the statutory system) could be set aside by the spouses themselves or a court.

Your wife is not able to cancel it when she likes, because usufruct is a registered real property right, but the usufruct can be terminated as the creation is in conflict with the statutory system of property of husband and wife.

Buying real estate in Thailand as a foreigner married to a Thai often means signing away your rights to the land, therefore it is important to obtain legal advice BEFORE you buy land on the name of your Thai spouse. Land (or other immovable property) registered as a personal property of the Thai spouse (a non-marital property) is not automatically subject to an equitably division between husband and wife upon termination of marriage".

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/ask-a-lawyer/root/usufruct-in-thailand/can-my-thai-wife-cancel-my-usufruct

Next!

Edited February 19, 2016 by chiang mai

[chiang mai]

Not correct. I have an usufruct from my wife duly registered at the land office

How do you reconcile that with item #6 in post #22?

I'm not asking to be a wise ass, I am curious. I have heard the same, that any contract between married folks in Thailand is problematic.

Can anyone shed some light?

If the usufruct is issued by the wife it becomes a marital asset and she is entitled to half upon divorce.

Yes you are right but if not married what happens . I know she has to get out that is why you should not get married unless you want to .

If you are not married, as indeed I am not, the usufructee retains the right to live in the property and more importantly, to say who else may or may not live there also. Given that scenario it is also easily possible for the usufructee to issue a 30 year lease to a third party and this remains valid even if the usufructee dies before the end of the lease period.

So, as long as my relationship with Mrs CM remains viable and desirable we both live in the property. But if the relationship ends by any means, I retain the right to live in the property and/or to issue sell a 30 year lease to another person thus recouping my investment.

[NanLaew]

How do you reconcile that with item #6 in post #22?

I'm not asking to be a wise ass, I am curious. I have heard the same, that any contract between married folks in Thailand is problematic.

Can anyone shed some light?

If the usufruct is issued by the wife it becomes a marital asset and she is entitled to half upon divorce.

Yes you are right but if not married what happens . I know she has to get out that is why you should not get married unless you want to .

If you are not married, as indeed I am not, the usufructee retains the right to live in the property and more importantly, to say who else may or may not live there also. Given that scenario it is also easily possible for the usufructee to issue a 30 year lease to a third party and this remains valid even if the usufructee dies before the end of the lease period.

So, as long as my relationship with Mrs CM remains viable and desirable we both live in the property. But if the relationship ends by any means, I retain the right to live in the property and/or to issue sell a 30 year lease to another person thus recouping my investment.

All very grand and perfectly legal but 'retaining the right' may be a bit challenging if the old mrs chiang mai decides she doesn't like the new mrs chiang mai. Also very hard to sell a lease if the old Mrs chiang mai is still camping there (unless the newbie lease holder fancies an old sofa).

Edited February 19, 2016 by NanLaew

[chiang mai]

If the usufruct is issued by the wife it becomes a marital asset and she is entitled to half upon divorce.

Yes you are right but if not married what happens . I know she has to get out that is why you should not get married unless you want to .

If you are not married, as indeed I am not, the usufructee retains the right to live in the property and more importantly, to say who else may or may not live there also. Given that scenario it is also easily possible for the usufructee to issue a 30 year lease to a third party and this remains valid even if the usufructee dies before the end of the lease period.

So, as long as my relationship with Mrs CM remains viable and desirable we both live in the property. But if the relationship ends by any means, I retain the right to live in the property and/or to issue sell a 30 year lease to another person thus recouping my investment.

All very grand and perfectly legal but 'retaining the right' may be a bit challenging if the old mrs chiang mai decides she doesn't like the new mrs chiang mai. Also very hard to sell a lease if the old Mrs chiang mai is still camping there (unless the newbie lease holder fancies an old sofa).

There is no Mrs, there's only a Ms. hence there is no legal relationship. And a little known aspect of usufructs is that the usufructee and ONLY the usufructee, can say who has the right to live in the property.

[georgemandm]

If the usufruct is issued by the wife it becomes a marital asset and she is entitled to half upon divorce.

Yes you are right but if not married what happens . I know she has to get out that is why you should not get married unless you want to .

If you are not married, as indeed I am not, the usufructee retains the right to live in the property and more importantly, to say who else may or may not live there also. Given that scenario it is also easily possible for the usufructee to issue a 30 year lease to a third party and this remains valid even if the usufructee dies before the end of the lease period.

So, as long as my relationship with Mrs CM remains viable and desirable we both live in the property. But if the relationship ends by any means, I retain the right to live in the property and/or to issue sell a 30 year lease to another person thus recouping my investment.

All very grand and perfectly legal but 'retaining the right' may be a bit challenging if the old mrs chiang mai decides she doesn't like the new mrs chiang mai. Also very hard to sell a lease if the old Mrs chiang mai is still camping there (unless the newbie lease holder fancies an old sofa).

There is no Mrs, there's only a Ms. hence there is no legal relationship. And a little known aspect of usufructs is that the usufructee and ONLY the usufructee, can say who has the right to live in the property.

You are so , so right that is how it is the way you put it .

If you want the Ms out she has to go and if you want to push it over you can .

Good to read someone here knows the law like you , thank you for being that smart at thai law .

[chiang mai]

If the usufruct is issued by the wife it becomes a marital asset and she is entitled to half upon divorce.

Yes you are right but if not married what happens . I know she has to get out that is why you should not get married unless you want to .

If you are not married, as indeed I am not, the usufructee retains the right to live in the property and more importantly, to say who else may or may not live there also. Given that scenario it is also easily possible for the usufructee to issue a 30 year lease to a third party and this remains valid even if the usufructee dies before the end of the lease period.

So, as long as my relationship with Mrs CM remains viable and desirable we both live in the property. But if the relationship ends by any means, I retain the right to live in the property and/or to issue sell a 30 year lease to another person thus recouping my investment.

All very grand and perfectly legal but 'retaining the right' may be a bit challenging if the old mrs chiang mai decides she doesn't like the new mrs chiang mai. Also very hard to sell a lease if the old Mrs chiang mai is still camping there (unless the newbie lease holder fancies an old sofa).

There is no Mrs, there's only a Ms. hence there is no legal relationship. And a little known aspect of usufructs is that the usufructee and ONLY the usufructee, can say who has the right to live in the property.

You are so , so right that is how it is the way you put it .

If you want the Ms out she has to go and if you want to push it over you can .

Good to read someone here knows the law like you , thank you for being that smart at thai law .

That's what happens when you pay for the services of a well qualified Attorney in Thailand rather than take as gospel what the chap on the next bar stool tells you!

[georgemandm]

If the usufruct is issued by the wife it becomes a marital asset and she is entitled to half upon divorce.

Yes you are right but if not married what happens . I know she has to get out that is why you should not get married unless you want to .

If you are not married, as indeed I am not, the usufructee retains the right to live in the property and more importantly, to say who else may or may not live there also. Given that scenario it is also easily possible for the usufructee to issue a 30 year lease to a third party and this remains valid even if the usufructee dies before the end of the lease period.

So, as long as my relationship with Mrs CM remains viable and desirable we both live in the property. But if the relationship ends by any means, I retain the right to live in the property and/or to issue sell a 30 year lease to another person thus recouping my investment.

All very grand and perfectly legal but 'retaining the right' may be a bit challenging if the old mrs chiang mai decides she doesn't like the new mrs chiang mai. Also very hard to sell a lease if the old Mrs chiang mai is still camping there (unless the newbie lease holder fancies an old sofa).

There is no Mrs, there's only a Ms. hence there is no legal relationship. And a little known aspect of usufructs is that the usufructee and ONLY the usufructee, can say who has the right to live in the property.

You are so , so right that is how it is the way you put it .

If you want the Ms out she has to go and if you want to push it over you can .

Good to read someone here knows the law like you , thank you for being that smart at thai law .

That's what happens when you pay for the services of a well qualified Attorney in Thailand rather than take as gospel what the chap on the next bar stool tells you!

All I can say to that is yes,yes,yes, you are so right that is what you have to do a good lawyer.

[huawei]

Just give it as a gift or don't do it. Why do so many come here and play the same game over and over again..it's not the Thai ladies that are smart it's the foreigners who seem so desperate to buy a house in a village they hadn't heard of before, in a country they hardly know, a language they can't speak and with laws that seem to be " fluid" depending on who you speak to. You would think that Internet forums like this would help...CM or MaeJoe solutions are at least preferable.

Can't tell you how many "d..kheads" I have met here who say they don't need a lawyer..it was one of the first things I did when I decided to live here permanently and I was only in my mid 20's then!! It's just common sense..and not a lawyer recommended by " mine is different"..

[impulse]

You can lease or get an usufruct from her mother but not from your wife if you are legally married.

Not correct. I have an usufruct from my wife duly registered at the land office

How do you reconcile that with item #6 in post #22?

I'm not asking to be a wise ass, I am curious. I have heard the same, that any contract between married folks in Thailand is problematic.

Can anyone shed some light?

If the usufruct is issued by the wife it becomes a marital asset and she is entitled to half upon divorce.

So, what I'm reading in your very informative later link is that, as a real (estate) property right, a usufruct is governed by a different set of rules than a contract for personal (very basically, movable) property. Fascinating stuff. Scary in its complexity and the consequences of getting it wrong, but fascinating.

Usufruct is a real right and as a real property right governed by the civil and commercial code book IV PROPERTY and not book III CONTRACTS.

Your wife is not able to cancel it when she likes, because usufruct is a registered real property right, but the usufruct can be terminated as the creation is in conflict with the statutory system of property of husband and wife.

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/ask-a-lawyer/root/usufruct-in-thailand/can-my-thai-wife-cancel-my-usufruct

Edited February 20, 2016 by impulse

[chiang mai]

Not correct. I have an usufruct from my wife duly registered at the land office

How do you reconcile that with item #6 in post #22?

I'm not asking to be a wise ass, I am curious. I have heard the same, that any contract between married folks in Thailand is problematic.

Can anyone shed some light?

If the usufruct is issued by the wife it becomes a marital asset and she is entitled to half upon divorce.

So, what I'm reading in your very informative later link is that, as a real (estate) property right, a usufruct is governed by a different set of rules than a contract for personal (very basically, movable) property. Fascinating stuff. Scary in its complexity and the consequences of getting it wrong, but fascinating.

Usufruct is a real right and as a real property right governed by the civil and commercial code book IV PROPERTY and not book III CONTRACTS.

Your wife is not able to cancel it when she likes, because usufruct is a registered real property right, but the usufruct can be terminated as the creation is in conflict with the statutory system of property of husband and wife.

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/ask-a-lawyer/root/usufruct-in-thailand/can-my-thai-wife-cancel-my-usufruct

"the usufruct can be terminated as the creation is in conflict with the statutory system of property of husband and wife", is the key part, the solution being to ensure you never enter into an usufruct with your wife - MIL, yes, girlfriend, yes, BIL yes, wife no.

And I do acknowledge MJ's solution as an equally viable alternative, it doesn't work for me however because I don't like to pay interest.

[NanLaew]

There is no Mrs, there's only a Ms. hence there is no legal relationship. And a little known aspect of usufructs is that the usufructee and ONLY the usufructee, can say who has the right to live in the property.

You are so , so right that is how it is the way you put it .

If you want the Ms out she has to go and if you want to push it over you can .

Good to read someone here knows the law like you , thank you for being that smart at thai law .

That's what happens when you pay for the services of a well qualified Attorney in Thailand rather than take as gospel what the chap on the next bar stool tells you!

All I can say to that is yes,yes,yes, you are so right that is what you have to do a good lawyer.

I am not arguing how a properly structured usufruct can protect the usufructee. Nor do I want to pop anyone's balloons. The reality is that this is indeed Thailand and for every well qualified lawyer in Thailand, there are some that can and will frustrate whatever legally binding contracts are in place... for a price. My point is that in an amicable parting, the usufruct will afford the benefits that the usufructee intended. In the more likely event of a somewhat contested separation, there's absolutely nothing to stop the other, offended party from challenging the agreement. If there's a considerable amount at stake, I reckon any older Thai person can round up their own well qualified attorney. It's just not that easy to get a newer, younger, live-in model these days.

[chiang mai]

You are so , so right that is how it is the way you put it .

If you want the Ms out she has to go and if you want to push it over you can .

Good to read someone here knows the law like you , thank you for being that smart at thai law .

That's what happens when you pay for the services of a well qualified Attorney in Thailand rather than take as gospel what the chap on the next bar stool tells you!

All I can say to that is yes,yes,yes, you are so right that is what you have to do a good lawyer.

I am not arguing how a properly structured usufruct can protect the usufructee. Nor do I want to pop anyone's balloons. The reality is that this is indeed Thailand and for every well qualified lawyer in Thailand, there are some that can and will frustrate whatever legally binding contracts are in place... for a price. My point is that in an amicable parting, the usufruct will afford the benefits that the usufructee intended. In the more likely event of a somewhat contested separation, there's absolutely nothing to stop the other, offended party from challenging the agreement. If there's a considerable amount at stake, I reckon any older Thai person can round up their own well qualified attorney. It's just not that easy to get a newer, younger, live-in model these days.

And my point is that usufruct granted by a Thai wife presents high risk, as you have stated whereas an usufruct granted by A N Other is virtually risk free, that's the key message of all of this I believe.

[Phanganguy]

See my posting query under the samui forum....

I am getting a lease on land which specifically says I can build...the land office is happy with this.... . The local tessaban planning guys say farang can not be name on building permit or have building permit transferred to farang... Essentially saying... Farang can not own house.... They would be happy for me to have a house owned by a dubious thai farng company tho!!!!

I have been unable to resolve this as yet.... Any suggestions or examples of a lease and building permit issued to farang appreciated!!!

[Ace of Pop]

Another One Bites The Dust