5,000 Aliens' Names Illegally Added

[george]

About 5,000 aliens' names illegally added : DSI

CHIANG MAI: -- Several government officials in Chiang Mai's Mae Taeng district have illegally put more than 5,000 aliens' names on local household registrations.

Department of Special Investigation (DSI) director general Sombat Amornwiwat said such a move could allow the aliens to seek an identification card and stand a better chance of getting Thai citizenship.

"If they get Thai citizenship, they can request DNA tests for their relatives who will then be able to be naturalised too," Sombat said, adding that such a scenario could affect the country's security.

According to DSI investigation, an alien was generally asked to pay between Bt5,000 and Bt8,000 to have his or her name included in the available household registrations. Up to nine C8level officials - whose passwords were used to enter the alien names and about 75 other accomplices including kamnans, village heads and local people were suspected of playing a role in the offences.

"The money in this corrupt scam can be as much as Bt35million," Sombat said, adding that DSI has now asked the Anti MoneyLaundering Office (Amlo) to investigate the finances and financial transactions of the suspects.

From March 2003 to September last year, the Mae Taeng District Office's registration bureau added 5,014 names to the household registrations.

DSI said only six names were added in line with bureaucratic rules.

[cclub75]

About 5,000 aliens' names illegally added : DSI

Up to nine C8level officials - whose passwords were used to enter the alien names and about 75 other accomplices including kamnans, village heads and local people were suspected of playing a role in the offences.

DSI said only six names were added in line with bureaucratic rules.

Frankly, reading such news it's something depressing about the country.

They will never make it....

I mean, we know corruption, Thaksin, big scandals. Ok. But in this case, it's "root level", it implies a lot of people, and even if the amount is small (a mere 35 millions THB) it's huge because of the nature of the scam : 5 names should have ben added, more than 5000 were added.

How thoses C8 level civil servants could have been thinking that such a scam would go sabai sabai ? Depressing.

[mouse]

such a move could allow the aliens to seek an identification card and stand a better chance of getting Thai citizenship.

"If they get Thai citizenship, they can request DNA tests for their relatives who will then be able to be naturalised too

Whoa George you may have found a goldmine here. My kids are on the House paper and due to birth and their Thai mother are considered Thai citizens and of course their DNA will point to me. Does that I mean I can get Thai citizenship and be done with the VISA machine?

Sunbelt could you take a look at this! Then again all I want is residence for the next 30 years!

[Chang_paarp]

Nice try Mouse.

I think, unfortunately you represent the wrong branch of the family tree.

[Shan]

What I am wondering is what happens with the 5000 plus people that thought they were legally added (I happen to know some of them)? I understand they look into those that made money out of it, OK, but what about those 5000 plus unlucky ones. I know that they all thought it was all very legal and so it looked on their papers! Are they going to be deported? That would hit the world news in a very negative way for Thailand I would think! 5000 people deported because they were the victims of some corrupt officials . . . Doesn't look very good!

[sriracha john]

The answer, I'm afraid, Shan, seems to be in the last line of this article:

CHIANG MAI

Officials to face arrest for identity papers scam

DSI says 5,000 'aliens' paid up to Bt8,000 for illegal house registration

Government officials in Chiang Mai's Mae Taeng district illegally registered more than 5,000 people from other countries as living in local households, the head of the Department of Special Investigation disclosed yesterday.

DSI director general Sombat Amornwiwat said such moves could allow "aliens" to seek identification cards and help them stand a better chance of getting Thai citizenship.

"If they get Thai citizenship, they can request DNA tests for their relatives who will then be able to be naturalised too," Sombat said. It could affect national security.

Police Lt-Colonel Pong-in Intarakhao, who works for DSI foreign affairs and cross-border crime division, said it was suspicious because up to 1,904 names were added on one single day.

"We are going to refer the case to the National Counter Corruption Commission because some government officials are involved," Pong-in said.

In a related development, Chiang Mai's deputy head Chumphon Saengmanee said a disciplinary probe against the officials involved was pending because he had to wait for the Provincial Administration Department's order to assign him to take charge of the inquiry.

The initial order named Krissadakorn Siampakdee, then Chiang Mai's deputy head, as the chairman of the probe panel. But Krissadakorn has been promoted to become deputy governor.

"I have all the information ready. When the probe resumes, we can speed up proceedings," Chumphon said.

Mae Taeng district chief Adisorn Kamnerdsiri said the offences were committed during his predecessor's time and the officials involved had been transferred out of the area.

"I have checked the registration-work reports every week," he said.

Adisorn said his office had a blacklist of people granted ID cards illegally.

"Several of them have already been arrested," Adisorn said.

The Nation

[Thaising]

What if Thaksin was still around and the scandal wasn’t discovered or expose, that mean another five thousand voters added for TRT with more money going into the C8 level officials pocket.

Killing two bird with one stone to fed the fat cat.

Edited October 25, 2006 by Thaising

[PREM-R]

This Fable may be an insite into the "Thai Way" of thinking:

The Scorpion and the Frog

One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.

The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.

So when you read about Thai corruption, or get ripped off by a Tuk-Tuk, Police Officer or shop assistant remember "They cannot help themselves. It is their nature"

[Farma]

I think we will hear of more stories like this in the near future. I've been told of other cases involving local officials being resurrected and reviewed despite outcomes being reached over a year ago.

[ding]

Adisorn said his office had a blacklist of people granted ID cards illegally.

"Several of them have already been arrested," Adisorn said.

That's too bad.

Could they have thought it was legit? They had to have known...

[sriracha john]

What if Thaksin was still around and the scandal wasn’t discovered or expose, that mean another five thousand voters added for TRT with more money going into the C8 level officials pocket.

Killing two bird with one stone to fed the fat cat.

Bingo!

I would even say he might have been behind the financial fronting of the charges.

Since he buys so many votes per election at 500 a pop, it's certainly plausible he would buy citizenship for lifelong-TRT-obligated voters for 5,000 or so baht. It would be a bargain.... and afterall,

he is a successful and astute businessman, is he not???

Edited October 25, 2006 by sriracha john

[cclub75]

A question still remains : who are those "alliens" ????

Burmese ?

Or maybe... farang ?

[Shan]

I have spoken to one person that obtained his registration that way. He assured me that he was absolutely sure it was legal. They told him that if it was not legal he would have to pay far more up to 50.000-100.000 baht. These were normal fees they told him. He also told me he hesitated long time as it looked to good to be true. On the other hand he heard of numerous people that had done it and from their stories it all looked very very legitimate!

He ended up being given a yellow colored original (no copy or fake) house book with his name in it printed by the computer and a large piece of paper with finger prints, pictures and stamps and signatures as well as an ID registratioin number. The ID card never came after 2 years waiting. They always told that Bangkok was not ready with the paper work yet or it would be finalized after the elections or whatever . . . And after more than 2 years he became already slightly suspicious that he was tricked into something but whenever he asked he was assured all was well! It just took some time.

As a matter of fact the people he knew all had to pay 15.000 baht. Most used their humble savings or borrowed money from others.

My questions remains now that I have no idea what they will do with more than 5000 authentic house registrations etc. Paid for by people in good faith. They were dealing not with a middle man but with the authorities directly, no reason to doubt their integrity (well that is what it should be). I would like to see that the government will come up with some form of amnesty or will offer them a deal or compensate them. Why should 5000 people become the victims of illegally operating Thai officials that should be trusted! That the present authorities will go after these criminal officials is fine but let them not forget about the victims and show them some clemency! They are not the criminals in this case!

Edited October 25, 2006 by Shan

[Cyberstar]

CHIANG MAI: -- Several government officials in Chiang Mai's Mae Taeng district have illegally put more than 5,000 aliens' names on local household registrations.

Department of Special Investigation (DSI) director general Sombat Amornwiwat said such a move could allow the aliens to seek an identification card and stand a better chance of getting Thai citizenship.

So, some police officer states the govermnment officials were acting illegally ... Does that make it illegal? Aren't those guys supposed to be tried in court? ... Could't one immagine, they might pledge they were only performing their (legal) discretion... ?

[PREM-R]

CHIANG MAI: -- Several government officials in Chiang Mai's Mae Taeng district have illegally put more than 5,000 aliens' names on local household registrations.

Department of Special Investigation (DSI) director general Sombat Amornwiwat said such a move could allow the aliens to seek an identification card and stand a better chance of getting Thai citizenship.

So, some police officer states the govermnment officials were acting illegally ... Does that make it illegal? Aren't those guys supposed to be tried in court? ... Could't one immagine, they might pledge they were only performing their (legal) discretion... ?

They OP suggests they were pocketing 5,000 to 8,000 baht per application..... (legal) discretion?

[Old Man River]

Corruption exists at all levels in Thailand. Nobody should be surprised by this. Thai's aren't. It is the accepted way of life. This is why I have said if all the CNS can do is prove corruption against Dr. Thaksin and other TRT officials, they will fail in their efforts for national reconciliation. They need to do better than what everyone already knows and accepts as a way of life. They must prove lese majeste, one of the reasons stated for the coup.

[Shan]

CHIANG MAI: -- Several government officials in Chiang Mai's Mae Taeng district have illegally put more than 5,000 aliens' names on local household registrations.

Department of Special Investigation (DSI) director general Sombat Amornwiwat said such a move could allow the aliens to seek an identification card and stand a better chance of getting Thai citizenship.

So, some police officer states the govermnment officials were acting illegally ... Does that make it illegal? Aren't those guys supposed to be tried in court? ... Could't one immagine, they might pledge they were only performing their (legal) discretion... ?

They OP suggests they were pocketing 5,000 to 8,000 baht per application..... (legal) discretion?

As far as what I heard these people were explicedly told that it was legal as if it was illegal they would have to pay much more as bribes had to be paid then . . . Now that was not the case as it was legal . . .

I still wonder what the outcome for the 5000 victims will going to be, I don't really care about the corrupt (illegally acting) officials, that is for the authorities to decide upon.

Edited October 25, 2006 by Shan

[Losangels]

I still wonder what the outcome for the 5000 victims will going to be, I don't really care about the corrupt (illegally acting) officials, that is for the authorities to decide upon.

Victims wil be sent back to where they came from and the worst case for the currupt officials is to be transfered to an inactive post. This is how things were done before, done now and in a foreseable future

[PeaceBlondie]

I don't know how it works in Thailand. But there are some jurisdictions, including religious ones, where an official officer can use his power even if he is corrupt, and the deed is effective. In other words, if the headman or govt. official had the power to make them citizens, they are.

[PREM-R]

I still wonder what the outcome for the 5000 victims will going to be, I don't really care about the corrupt (illegally acting) officials, that is for the authorities to decide upon.

Victims wil be sent back to where they came from and the worst case for the currupt officials is to be transfered to an inactive post. This is how things were done before, done now and in a foreseable future

I agree, wouldn't it be something if the new "government" issued a sentence of the magnitude of the one given to Enron boss Jeffrey Skilling, to these 'corupt officials'. Might it not make others, in positions of power, think twice about "pushing their snout in the trough"

[Shan]

I still wonder what the outcome for the 5000 victims will going to be, I don't really care about the corrupt (illegally acting) officials, that is for the authorities to decide upon.

Victims wil be sent back to where they came from and the worst case for the currupt officials is to be transfered to an inactive post. This is how things were done before, done now and in a foreseable future

Many will probably have no ID papers at all . . . How can they find out where they came from and can they return to another country without proof of identitity, will these other countries accept them. It fear it will be quite complicated especially as we are talking about 5000 and not 50 . . .

Edited October 25, 2006 by Shan

[sting01]

I don't know how it works in Thailand. But there are some jurisdictions, including religious ones, where an official officer can use his power even if he is corrupt, and the deed is effective. In other words, if the headman or govt. official had the power to make them citizens, they are.

Martin Luther King : 'I had a dream .....'

Without any bad ideas behind my words, I think the nationality problem is/was/will be a very hot subject in Thailand. The hill tribe one proof, the way young isaans define themself (I am thai isaan) is another, the southern people of muslim religion is another one (wonder why they are define as thai malay?).

Rather than saying advantages come with the thai nationality (they are but comparable to those coming with an UK nationality while leaving in UK), I think it have to be considered on what is refused when a person does NOT have this nationality while living in Thailand, and by so it can help to understand the true reasons behind this action (the investigation of those alleged corrupt civils servants).Also, who were the people who paid 5 000 bht to became thais national? Hi So westerners trying to hide in thailand (Karr for exemple) or is it people who usually and traditionaly live in the north of the country, inside the forest and since several generation? Just asking, not affirming anything.

another question, is it possible all of that is made only with the purpose to show one political party (and by so a part of the administration) was simply selling not only the economy of the country but also was already itself sold to the foreigner with local nominees following forieigners orders against some little money?

On the other hand, if really people did that (get money against a citisenship) they receive the harshest pusnishment. They simply sold what made a country, they simply sold what all of us cherish the most (whatever the country we come from) they sold the honor the claim proudly : I am (US, Britt, French,Spaniard, Korean, Chinese ...........).

[Old Man River]

I don't know how it works in Thailand. But there are some jurisdictions, including religious ones, where an official officer can use his power even if he is corrupt, and the deed is effective. In other words, if the headman or govt. official had the power to make them citizens, they are.

In Thailand, government agencies do not normally work together, unless either they are forced to by a higher political authority, or there is something in it for them, or they are very, very politely asked by the other department. Otherwise they create enemies. In this case, Immigration would have to rule that they are citizens, and this sounds like a Land Dept. issue.

This is a very sad situation, because the crooked officials knew the illegal aliens couldn't get legal advice and they took advantage of it. The best way to get this rectified is for the local media and/or international agencies to make a big issue out of it so that a high political officer steps in to quiet the bad publicity. However, the fact that they are illegal aliens to begin with will make it difficult.

[Losangels]

(quote)

This is a very sad situation, because the crooked officials knew the illegal aliens couldn't get legal advice and they took advantage of it. The best way to get this rectified is for the local media and/or international agencies to make a big issue out of it so that a high political officer steps in to quiet the bad publicity. However, the fact that they are illegal aliens to begin with will make it difficult.

Yes indeed it is very sad. As an illegal alien living along the border, they are often treated or mistreated badly by the locals and even worse by the government officials. Case in point the abuse by some government officials of the long-neck Burmese forcing them as displays for unsuspecting foreigners as human zoos.

[kmart]

Yes indeed it is very sad. As an illegal alien living along the border, they are often treated or mistreated badly by the locals and even worse by the government officials. Case in point the abuse by some government officials of the long-neck Burmese forcing them as displays for unsuspecting foreigners as human zoos.

Yep. Illegals and hilltribes are kept in legal limbo to serve the needs of illegal labour / transport of drugs; etc. Their plight mostly don't get much attention at all from a lot of Thais due to historical enmity.

Thai government officials are mostly a shower of <deleted>, always looking to exploit the disenfranchised.

[Tony Clifton]

Some may have been duped, others may have known it was illegal. Anyway, they should somehow all get together and point fingers all at once , if not, they'll be pinched one by one. Seems it's been clean up time lately after the coup, they should take advantage of the situation.

Edited October 25, 2006 by Tony Clifton

[sriracha john]

Corruption exists at all levels in Thailand. Nobody should be surprised by this. Thai's aren't. It is the accepted way of life. This is why I have said if all the CNS can do is prove corruption against Dr. Thaksin and other TRT officials, they will fail in their efforts for national reconciliation. They need to do better than what everyone already knows and accepts as a way of life. They must prove lese majeste, one of the reasons stated for the coup.

I disagree on a few points. Corruption on Thaksin's level needs to be addressed first and that is being done. The investigators are looking into the Head Rat's take first as they ought to. The small potatoes of this much lower scale (only millions, not billions involved) can wait. The CNS has only been in charge a month and it's going to take time to unravel Thaksin's looting for five-plus years. Give 'em time.

Even on its own, the corruption during Thaksin's tyrant times is more than enough justification for the coup. But... again, if they say lese majeste, fine. Let them investigate and complete a thorough examaination. If this Chief Leech gets nailed to the wall... it will go a long way in turning the corner on the long-held tradition of corruption. Thailand needs to turn that page if it hopes to join the rest of the world in the year 2006.

Again... give 'em time to undo all of Thaksin's crap.

[sriracha john]

I agree, wouldn't it be something if the new "government" issued a sentence of the magnitude of the one given to Enron boss Jeffrey Skilling, to these 'corupt officials'. Might it not make others, in positions of power, think twice about "pushing their snout in the trough"

Echos just what I was describing above.

A 24-year sentence given to a corrupt businessman outside the framework of corruption by a government official, which IMHO, is, if possible, even worse... is a good "go-by."

speaking of "time" from my previous post...

Thaksin deserves more time, too. He deserves more time in prison than Skilling got.

[Old Man River]

Corruption exists at all levels in Thailand. Nobody should be surprised by this. Thai's aren't. It is the accepted way of life. This is why I have said if all the CNS can do is prove corruption against Dr. Thaksin and other TRT officials, they will fail in their efforts for national reconciliation. They need to do better than what everyone already knows and accepts as a way of life. They must prove lese majeste, one of the reasons stated for the coup.

I disagree on a few points. Corruption on Thaksin's level needs to be addressed first and that is being done. The investigators are looking into the Head Rat's take first as they ought to. The small potatoes of this much lower scale (only millions, not billions involved) can wait. The CNS has only been in charge a month and it's going to take time to unravel Thaksin's looting for five-plus years. Give 'em time.

Even on its own, the corruption during Thaksin's tyrant times is more than enough justification for the coup. But... again, if they say lese majeste, fine. Let them investigate and complete a thorough examaination. If this Chief Leech gets nailed to the wall... it will go a long way in turning the corner on the long-held tradition of corruption. Thailand needs to turn that page if it hopes to join the rest of the world in the year 2006.

Again... give 'em time to undo all of Thaksin's crap.

John, I really do hope you are right. Right now, corruption is so well entrenched in this society that I have difficulty seeing how the majority of Thai's will turn against Dr. Thaksin if the only thing that can be proven is he was corrupt (even at the levels being discussed). The CNS would point to the amount he tried to steal and those upcountry would counter that he was the only leader that took their needs seriously. I fear corruption is not enough for national reconciliation. Lese majeste, on the other hand, is a whole different kettle of fish.

Separate issue, but somewhat related, if you haven't already, try and get ahold of some of the info the Thai community in the US has written about the coup. We can't discuss this on TV, but the real reason for the coup falls into place and things we have seen recently that we haven't in the past starts to make sense.