Two Palestinians shot dead after attacking Israeli in West Bank

[Morch]

shallow and brainwashed minds of course see this as islamic terrorism.

but all righteous and objective people see this as an act of reaction and defense from people whose land is stolen and pushed to poverty and insecurity by cheap charlie Israeli settlers who want cheap and free land to stay!

they still bulldoze the houses of Palestinians although how many times they are warned. so are you surprised for this reaction?

of course loss of human life jew, muslim whatever is sad but when there is no choice, these type of actions unfortunately becomes reality and thesis again the fault of people stealing the lands, bulldozing the houses others.

Jews sure doing the same by terrorizing Palestinians in the name of 'protecting their land and people' and and any person from any religion and righteous person acts the same if their lands are stolen!

do you really believe what you are saying i wonder? or these are just cliche answers taught to you by Zionist propaganda?

So them illegal settlers are all there because of real-estate prices, eh? No ideological/religious motivation at all? Well this ought to be easy enough to sort, then.

There is always a choice. There are many ways of resisting a stronger force other then by violence. And even with violence, deciding which lines not to cross is an option. Anyone describing the Palestinians as exempt from making these moral choices (or worse, unable to) essentially dehumanizes them.

[dexterm]

shallow and brainwashed minds of course see this as islamic terrorism.

but all righteous and objective people see this as an act of reaction and defense from people whose land is stolen and pushed to poverty and insecurity by cheap charlie Israeli settlers who want cheap and free land to stay!

they still bulldoze the houses of Palestinians although how many times they are warned. so are you surprised for this reaction?

of course loss of human life jew, muslim whatever is sad but when there is no choice, these type of actions unfortunately becomes reality and thesis again the fault of people stealing the lands, bulldozing the houses others.

Jews sure doing the same by terrorizing Palestinians in the name of 'protecting their land and people' and and any person from any religion and righteous person acts the same if their lands are stolen!

do you really believe what you are saying i wonder? or these are just cliche answers taught to you by Zionist propaganda?

So them illegal settlers are all there because of real-estate prices, eh? No ideological/religious motivation at all? Well this ought to be easy enough to sort, then.

There is always a choice. There are many ways of resisting a stronger force other then by violence. And even with violence, deciding which lines not to cross is an option. Anyone describing the Palestinians as exempt from making these moral choices (or worse, unable to) essentially dehumanizes them.

Many illegal colonists including new immigrants are carpet baggers squatting there solely for the cheap heavily subsidized real estate. Some are messianics and ultra nationalists. Do you think that matters to the dispossessed Palestinians? The common denominator is that some Palestinian had a gun pointed at them while their land was confiscated to make room for the Zionist colonists and then were herded off to refugee camps. Some paid with their lives for resisting the land theft, and it is still happening today. Maan News reports daily incidents

Yes, there is always a choice. 50 years ago immediately after Israel's victory in the 6 Day War many voices, including that of the Israeli hero General Matti Peled whose military genius just won the war for the politicians, advised now was a good time to make peace with the Palestinians in their own state...magnanimous in victory. He and others were ignored and the Israeli politicians against all international law made the conscious choice to send in the bulldozers, confiscate the land, displace the Palestinian residents and transfer their own population there.

Choices have consequences. The hopeless frustration created by Israel's 50 year illegal occupation and oppression led to the incident in the OP.

As an Israeli voter it's not enough for you just to "make sense of a complex situation", but to do something concrete to end the injustice (perhaps you are..if so,good). As an outsider all I can do is draw attention to the wrongs Israel continues to perpetrate against the Palestinians.

[Morch]

shallow and brainwashed minds of course see this as islamic terrorism.

but all righteous and objective people see this as an act of reaction and defense from people whose land is stolen and pushed to poverty and insecurity by cheap charlie Israeli settlers who want cheap and free land to stay!

they still bulldoze the houses of Palestinians although how many times they are warned. so are you surprised for this reaction?

of course loss of human life jew, muslim whatever is sad but when there is no choice, these type of actions unfortunately becomes reality and thesis again the fault of people stealing the lands, bulldozing the houses others.

Jews sure doing the same by terrorizing Palestinians in the name of 'protecting their land and people' and and any person from any religion and righteous person acts the same if their lands are stolen!

do you really believe what you are saying i wonder? or these are just cliche answers taught to you by Zionist propaganda?

So them illegal settlers are all there because of real-estate prices, eh? No ideological/religious motivation at all? Well this ought to be easy enough to sort, then.

There is always a choice. There are many ways of resisting a stronger force other then by violence. And even with violence, deciding which lines not to cross is an option. Anyone describing the Palestinians as exempt from making these moral choices (or worse, unable to) essentially dehumanizes them.

Many illegal colonists including new immigrants are carpet baggers squatting there solely for the cheap heavily subsidized real estate. Some are messianics and ultra nationalists. Do you think that matters to the dispossessed Palestinians? The common denominator is that some Palestinian had a gun pointed at them while their land was confiscated to make room for the Zionist colonists and then were herded off to refugee camps. Some paid with their lives for resisting the land theft, and it is still happening today. Maan News reports daily incidents

Yes, there is always a choice. 50 years ago immediately after Israel's victory in the 6 Day War many voices, including that of the Israeli hero General Matti Peled whose military genius just won the war for the politicians, advised now was a good time to make peace with the Palestinians in their own state...magnanimous in victory. He and others were ignored and the Israeli politicians against all international law made the conscious choice to send in the bulldozers, confiscate the land, displace the Palestinian residents and transfer their own population there.

Choices have consequences. The hopeless frustration created by Israel's 50 year illegal occupation and oppression led to the incident in the OP.

As an Israeli voter it's not enough for you just to "make sense of a complex situation", but to do something concrete to end the injustice (perhaps you are..if so,good). As an outsider all I can do is draw attention to the wrongs Israel continues to perpetrate against the Palestinians.

I doubt that you have any actual clue as to how many Israeli illegal settlers reside in the West Bank solely (or mostly) for economic reasons. Or, for that matter, that the dramatics you employ are quite as things happened. In case you didn't get it - if this conflict was merely about real-estate, it would be way easier to solve.

Matti Peled's military career notwithstanding, he was in charge of the IDF Supply Division before, during, and after the 1967 war (1964-1968). His "military genius" did not quite win the war on its own. Magnanimous in victory? His stand was more utilitarian, and stemmed from being the military governor of Gaza after the 1956 war. There was no contrary conscious choice in the way that you describe. We've been over this on previous topics. There were various point of views, factions and political constraints, which gradually led to things being the mess they are.

If it wasn't clear, when I talk about choices and consequences, these apply to both sides. Not a one way street there either. Naturally, you ignore the Palestinians from your little list of tasks - seems like they do not have to do anything in order to promote peace. Skip the "Israel holds all cards" nonsense, if someone can pick up a knife and stab another, they can just as well find non-violent, and more efficient ways of resistance.

[sunnyjim5]

While the Israelis are confronted by maniacal death worshiping fanatics who are committed to the destruction of Israel and all Israelis there will never be peace.

Hope might exist if the radical Hamas extremists were eliminated.

[Morch]

While the Israelis are confronted by maniacal death worshiping fanatics who are committed to the destruction of Israel and all Israelis there will never be peace.

Hope might exist if the radical Hamas extremists were eliminated.

In all probability, the attack dealt with in the OP is less to do with religious motivations, and more with political ones.

Not all those expressing support for Hamas (as these two were) fully identify with its religious ideology. There's a considerable segment which supports Hamas in protest to the Fatah's (and the PA's) failings. That said, there are, of course, those who do embrace it all. Hamas got considerable popular support among Palestinians, there is no conceivable way to simply "eliminate" it.

Mind, the Palestinians may feel that there will never be peace as long as _____________ (enter litany of Israel's sins here).

There is no single action that would bring about peace.

[dexterm]

shallow and brainwashed minds of course see this as islamic terrorism.

but all righteous and objective people see this as an act of reaction and defense from people whose land is stolen and pushed to poverty and insecurity by cheap charlie Israeli settlers who want cheap and free land to stay!

they still bulldoze the houses of Palestinians although how many times they are warned. so are you surprised for this reaction?

of course loss of human life jew, muslim whatever is sad but when there is no choice, these type of actions unfortunately becomes reality and thesis again the fault of people stealing the lands, bulldozing the houses others.

Jews sure doing the same by terrorizing Palestinians in the name of 'protecting their land and people' and and any person from any religion and righteous person acts the same if their lands are stolen!

do you really believe what you are saying i wonder? or these are just cliche answers taught to you by Zionist propaganda?

So them illegal settlers are all there because of real-estate prices, eh? No ideological/religious motivation at all? Well this ought to be easy enough to sort, then.

There is always a choice. There are many ways of resisting a stronger force other then by violence. And even with violence, deciding which lines not to cross is an option. Anyone describing the Palestinians as exempt from making these moral choices (or worse, unable to) essentially dehumanizes them.

Many illegal colonists including new immigrants are carpet baggers squatting there solely for the cheap heavily subsidized real estate. Some are messianics and ultra nationalists. Do you think that matters to the dispossessed Palestinians? The common denominator is that some Palestinian had a gun pointed at them while their land was confiscated to make room for the Zionist colonists and then were herded off to refugee camps. Some paid with their lives for resisting the land theft, and it is still happening today. Maan News reports daily incidents

Yes, there is always a choice. 50 years ago immediately after Israel's victory in the 6 Day War many voices, including that of the Israeli hero General Matti Peled whose military genius just won the war for the politicians, advised now was a good time to make peace with the Palestinians in their own state...magnanimous in victory. He and others were ignored and the Israeli politicians against all international law made the conscious choice to send in the bulldozers, confiscate the land, displace the Palestinian residents and transfer their own population there.

Choices have consequences. The hopeless frustration created by Israel's 50 year illegal occupation and oppression led to the incident in the OP.

As an Israeli voter it's not enough for you just to "make sense of a complex situation", but to do something concrete to end the injustice (perhaps you are..if so,good). As an outsider all I can do is draw attention to the wrongs Israel continues to perpetrate against the Palestinians.

I doubt that you have any actual clue as to how many Israeli illegal settlers reside in the West Bank solely (or mostly) for economic reasons. Or, for that matter, that the dramatics you employ are quite as things happened. In case you didn't get it - if this conflict was merely about real-estate, it would be way easier to solve.

Matti Peled's military career notwithstanding, he was in charge of the IDF Supply Division before, during, and after the 1967 war (1964-1968). His "military genius" did not quite win the war on its own. Magnanimous in victory? His stand was more utilitarian, and stemmed from being the military governor of Gaza after the 1956 war. There was no contrary conscious choice in the way that you describe. We've been over this on previous topics. There were various point of views, factions and political constraints, which gradually led to things being the mess they are.

If it wasn't clear, when I talk about choices and consequences, these apply to both sides. Not a one way street there either. Naturally, you ignore the Palestinians from your little list of tasks - seems like they do not have to do anything in order to promote peace. Skip the "Israel holds all cards" nonsense, if someone can pick up a knife and stab another, they can just as well find non-violent, and more efficient ways of resistance.

>>I doubt that you have any actual clue as to how many Israeli illegal settlers reside in the West Bank solely (or mostly) for economic reasons

I doubt that you do either, but if the West Bank were full of nationalistic and messianic colonists there on principle alone , then there would be no need for the government to subsidize cheap real estate to encourage them to illegally populate, all at the expense of dispossessed Palestinians.

The Palestinian response may at times not have been perfect: 20:20 hindsight is wonderful counsel. They have been placed in a very difficult position by several foreign occupying powers for 100 years now.

But I won't skip the fact that Israel still does hold most of the chips: it is the only one with a very powerful standing army, huge technological, organisational, financial and media support, friends in very high places in the USA and EU. Maybe domestic politics are holding them back...can't upset the ultra religious and nationalistic if you want to stay in power. Perhaps some charismatic Israeli politician can change the mindset of the electorate. My thinking is that it will eventually be external economic and political forces that bring change. Time will tell.

Personally, as is clear from my posts, I do not condemn violent resistance to Israeli occupation. I think its a natural result of 50 years of hopelessness and frustration. At the same time I have frequently said that I think non violent passive resistance would be more effective. Give every occupied Palestinian a digital camera, flood the social media with graphic images of Israeli brutality and shame Israel before the world.

[sunnyjim5]

dexterm

Did you ever give thought to the fact that if fanatics were to cease attempting to kill Israelis there would be no need for any response.

Do you think if the fanatics were to renounce their avowed intent of destroying Israel and all Israelis some hope might emerge ?

[Ulysses G.]

Personally, as is clear from my posts, I do not condemn violent resistance to Israeli occupation.

In other words, you support terrorism, so quit denying it. You must consistently write the most dishonest posts on the forum and that is saying something.

[dexterm]

dexterm

Did you ever give thought to the fact that if fanatics were to cease attempting to kill Israelis there would be no need for any response.

Do you think if the fanatics were to renounce their avowed intent of destroying Israel and all Israelis some hope might emerge ?

Do you ever give thought to the fact that if Israel ceased placing its soldiers and citizens at risk by illegally occupying the West Bank, there'd be no Israelis to be attacked there?

Your second paragraph is hogwash. Israel will destroy itself.

[dexterm]

Personally, as is clear from my posts, I do not condemn violent resistance to Israeli occupation.

In other words, you support terrorism, so quit denying it. You must consistently write the most dishonest posts on the forum and that is saying something.

Your label not mine. I prefer to call them freedom fighters. I reserve the epithet "terrorist" for the IDF and Illegal Zionist colonists who terrorize Palestinians on a daily basis under a brutal occupation. When the IDF reservist Harel in the OP goes out on patrol and shoots a stone throwing Palestinian child dead with live ammunition when tear gas would suffice to control...now that's what I call terrorism.

Still waiting for proof of my so called dishonest posts, but the silence is always deafening. I think it's just your way of saying you disagree with me.

Edited March 3, 2016 by dexterm

[dexterm]

Personally, as is clear from my posts, I do not condemn violent resistance to Israeli occupation.

In other words, you support terrorism, so quit denying it. You must consistently write the most dishonest posts on the forum and that is saying something.

Your label not mine. I prefer to call them freedom fighters. I reserve the epithet "terrorist" for the IDF and Illegal Zionist colonists who terrorize Palestinians on a daily basis under a brutal occupation.

Still waiting for proof of my so called dishonest posts, but the silence is always deafening. I think it's just your way of saying you disagree with me.

Must not be all that brutal if 2 million of them chose to live with Israeli passport and citizenship.

But do not let facts cloud your judgements

2.5 million Palestinians under occupation in the West Bank do not have any civil rights at all let alone Israeli citizenship. You are confusing them with the 1.8 million Israeli Palestinians who were not ethnically cleansed in 47 and 67.

[dexterm]

2.5 million Palestinians under occupation in the West Bank do not have any civil rights at all let alone Israeli citizenship. You are confusing them with the 1.8 million Israeli Palestinians who were not ethnically cleansed in 47 and 67.

Last time I checked West Bank was governed by Abbas and Co, but again do not let facts get in the way of truth

You don't seem to understand the situation, Israel is an army of occupation controlling every single aspect of Palestinian daily lives in the West Bank..where they can live, farm, work, receive an education or hospital treatment, when and where they can travel, the IDF on daily incursions can trash any home it likes, kidnap Palestinians and imprison them without charge indefinitely.

And the OP reservist Harel was part of this apparatus.. a perfectly legitimate target.

I suggest you google Life in Occupied Palestine by the American Jewish woman Anna Baltzer to give yourself some idea of what life is like under occupation.

Edited March 3, 2016 by dexterm

[sunnyjim5]

2.5 million Palestinians under occupation in the West Bank do not have any civil rights at all let alone Israeli citizenship. You are confusing them with the 1.8 million Israeli Palestinians who were not ethnically cleansed in 47 and 67.

Last time I checked West Bank was governed by Abbas and Co, but again do not let facts get in the way of truth

You don't seem to understand the situation, Israel is an army of occupation controlling every single aspect of Palestinian daily lives in the West bank..where they can live, farm, when and where they can travel, the IDF can trash any home it likes, kidnap Palestinians and imprison them without charge indefinitely.

And the OP reservist Harel was part of this apparatus.. a perfectly legitimate target.

I suggest you google Life in Occupied Palestine by the American Jewish woman Anna Baltzer to give yourself some idea of what life is like under occupation.

It is not the "occupation" the Palestinians fear but rather the Terrorist fanatics who fire rockets from homes, schools and hospitals having ensured those places are full of the sick, women and children .

[dexterm]

2.5 million Palestinians under occupation in the West Bank do not have any civil rights at all let alone Israeli citizenship. You are confusing them with the 1.8 million Israeli Palestinians who were not ethnically cleansed in 47 and 67.

Last time I checked West Bank was governed by Abbas and Co, but again do not let facts get in the way of truth

You don't seem to understand the situation, Israel is an army of occupation controlling every single aspect of Palestinian daily lives in the West bank..where they can live, farm, when and where they can travel, the IDF can trash any home it likes, kidnap Palestinians and imprison them without charge indefinitely.

And the OP reservist Harel was part of this apparatus.. a perfectly legitimate target.

I suggest you google Life in Occupied Palestine by the American Jewish woman Anna Baltzer to give yourself some idea of what life is like under occupation.

It is not the "occupation" the Palestinians fear but rather the Terrorist fanatics who fire rockets from homes, schools and hospitals having ensured those places are full of the sick, women and children .

Oh dear . I can't waste my time on your clueless nonsense any more. I don't think you even know the geography of Israel,Palestine, Gaza and the West Bank, and where exactly the OP incident took place. Come back when you have looked at a map.

Got much better things to do. sawasdee krap.

Edited March 3, 2016 by dexterm

[sunnyjim5]

dexterm

Having lived and worked in the area I am fully aware of its geography -------------- Are you ?

When did you last enter Israel, Palestine, Gaza or the West Bank?

Have you ever worked in a Palestinian hospital while rabid fanatics were firing rockets from within the grounds and from the roof ?

http://www.msf.org/palestine

[Ulysses G.]

Still waiting for proof of my so called dishonest posts, but the silence is always deafening.

Pretty much EVERY post you write is dishonest, but you have claimed over and over again that the Arabs did not declare the war in 1948 against the new country of Israel. That is pure balderdash and typical of the ignorant content in your posts.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[shirtless]

Israel has created much of these tensions by their heavy handed approach, If someone came and took your land , would you be happy about it, Its come down force , you reap what you sow.

[sunnyjim5]

Israel has created much of these tensions by their heavy handed approach, If someone came and took your land , would you be happy about it, Its come down force , you reap what you sow.

When were you last in Israel or anywhere else in the region ?

What are you basing you comment on ? Personal experience ?

[dexterm]

Pretty much EVERY post you write is dishonest, but you have claimed over and over again that the Arabs did not declare the war in 1948 against the new country of Israel. That is pure balderdash and typical of the ignorant content in your posts.

I did not say that. Quote please. I said Israel started its massive ethnic cleansing in 1947 on the day of partition.

[Ulysses G.]

Pretty much EVERY post you write is dishonest, but you have claimed over and over again that the Arabs did not declare the war in 1948 against the new country of Israel. That is pure balderdash and typical of the ignorant content in your posts.

I did not say that. Quote please. I said Israel started its massive ethnic cleansing in 1947 on the day of partition.

So you are finally ADMITTING that the Arabs declared war on Israel in 1948? That was a LONG time coming for something that is common knowledge.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

dexterm

Having lived and worked in the area I am fully aware of its geography -------------- Are you ?

When did you last enter Israel, Palestine, Gaza or the West Bank?

Have you ever worked in a Palestinian hospital while rabid fanatics were firing rockets from within the grounds and from the roof ?

http://www.msf.org/palestine

I have indeed visited Israel and the West Bank but not Gaza, as well as Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, and Egypt. Have you? Not that one needs a travelogue to comment on Israeli injustice towards the Palestinians.

I was pointing out another poster's off topic deflection and now yours too, trying to steer the subject away from the West Bank where the OP incident took place. We are not discussing the wars in Gaza. Would love to, but another time another thread maybe.

[dexterm]

Pretty much EVERY post you write is dishonest, but you have claimed over and over again that the Arabs did not declare the war in 1948 against the new country of Israel. That is pure balderdash and typical of the ignorant content in your posts.

I did not say that. Quote please. I said Israel started its massive ethnic cleansing in 1947 on the day of partition.

So you are finally ADMITTING that the Arabs declared war on Israel in 1948? That was a LONG time coming for something that is common knowledge.

How can I admit to something I never denied. I never said surrounding Arab countries did not declare war on Israel in 1948. You are the only one claiming that I said it "over and over again" apparently. If I did, please quote...just one of the many instances will do.

Please stop accusing other posters of fabrication, when it appears only you are doing so.

Edited March 4, 2016 by dexterm

[wabothai]

Personally, as is clear from my posts, I do not condemn violent resistance to Israeli occupation.

In other words, you support terrorism, so quit denying it. You must consistently write the most dishonest posts on the forum and that is saying something.

I am sure mr. Dexterm supports Palestinians violently protesting against the bullies. So do I.

[Steely Dan]

Personally, as is clear from my posts, I do not condemn violent resistance to Israeli occupation.

In other words, you support terrorism, so quit denying it. You must consistently write the most dishonest posts on the forum and that is saying something.

An orange suit would therefore be appropriate.