Under The Current Climate Would You Buy A Condo?

[pop3]

How would you feel if you had to walk away from it ?

[xbusman]

It appears that hagler is doing a fine job living by the first rule of Thailand. If he has to walk away from his SE asia properties he still has properties in his home country which are protected by his rights of citizenship and most probably a legal system which will invariably uphold those rights. Obviously with that much property in a protected place, he can gamble big here with surplus capital without the need for a high balcony.

To advocate other than the first rule of Thailand is simply ignorance at best or dishonesty at worse.

I dont believe that anyone here has promoted doom and gloom, the first rule is not pessimistic by nature. I happen to agree that the potential for investment rewards is significantly better in SE asia than in developed countries, but I also think that the risks are exponentially higher. In addition to higher risks, there is no safety net or fall back position. In the real world returns are generally directly related to risks.

What westerners forget however, is that we have no protections here. Its an innate assumption we acquire early on living in the cocoon of rights that we enjoy in the west, that those rights somehow are inscribed in our passports to protect us where ever we might be. Big brother wont let that happen to us! We have rights!

Take a few minutes and read the board. This board has a million posts about the legal and illegal victimization of farangs without a single account of recourse. From key money to customs extortion all the way to poor Mr Monson, having sued our ex prime minister for the outright theft of 100 million of real dollars. Let me sum the result of that court case up for all our readers.

"Mr. Monson, I am so sorry but Mr Thaksin did not show up for court today. As the statute of limitations expires next week, you dont have a case. So please F off and never come back. Som Nam Na." Mr Monson is one smart man, I think cellular and cable technology was a brilliant investment at that time, especially in third world countries. Unfortunately, no one told him about the first rule of Thailand because he obviously was not willing to walk away. Many are smart, very very few are wise.

For all you newbies out there, because we dont want you falling on us as we stroll about Pattaya, here it is again. Add it to your tattoos where you can see it every time you reach for your wallet.

NEVER PUT MORE INTO THAILAND THAN YOU ARE WILLING TO WALK AWAY FROM!

Edited October 30, 2006 by xbusman

[Casanundra]

How would you feel if you had to walk away from it ?

Is it me or am I missing something here?

Let me ask something... Apart from in times of war (i.e. WWII) when has Thailand in its history ever done a mass exodus of all foreigners from their shores? Has it ever happened?

Even back in 1942 as they welcomed their new Japanese friends in to share their country for a while (shudder to think what they would do if they allowed themselves to believe they where ever occupied) they didn't exactly kick any of the foreigners out, they just let their new friends take care of that for them instead.

In the history of military coups that have gone on here over the years, was there ever a time when all foreigners where told to leave? Even if they did, it is pretty evident that we all came back eventually otherwise how come we are all here.

Surely, if you had to leave Thailand for whatever reason, it still doesn't change the fact that the property still remains in the name of the foreigner (especially for the 49% Condo holders) and in the case of those with a Thai wife (especially one not out to skin her husband of his assets) then she would still be around to take care of the property and put it up for sale on behalf of her husband while he is sipping beer in the next country along on the map waiting to start his new life elsewhere.

Let's not get confused. We are talking about buying a Condo and to seeing if the time is right to buy or not and setting up a business or buying a bar is a completely different matter altogether.

The reason why I put this thread on was because speculation is rife that the bubble will burst, that the prices will plummet, that less foreigners in thailand will mean A class Condo's in particular will depreciate or prices on new builds will fall. Already I have seen two A class Condo builds offering upto 1m baht discounts this past week alone so it is a fair question to ask.

Hagler got it right, property is one of the better ways to make safe money (if you are investing) but as always location is the number one factor. It is better to buy a dump in a good location and do it up than to buying a good house in a bad location. Buying a beer bar on the other hand, especially here in Thailand is guaranteed to see your money fly down the soi.

[dsfbrit]

hmmm let me see...

Even the properties I bought just before the Asian financial meltdown of 97 are ALL worth at least 3 times what I paid for them now. Many of the others in Asia have achieved truly spectacular results.

And the moral of the this story is ? Dont listen to the "doom and gloom" brigade; but be happy they are there as they are the ones who make you richer by paying off your mortgages through their rents.. Real Estate investment is the BEST way to achieving financial and personal independance. Paying rent is the equivilent of showering in $ 100 bills, once it leaves your hands you never see it again.

Hey you have done well - and good luck to you.

Your skillsets include good entreprenurial skills and you have taken risks and won.

You also seem to have lots of enthusiasm and no small amount of salesmanship.

However, we are not all like you.

Have you considered that during the example you gave above regarding the meltdown when people had to sell for whatever reason - these people possibly made a loss.

Possibly you made a gain as you could buy rather than have to sell during such a period.

I still have friends who have only just recovered from the recession in the early 1990's in the UK.These were normal professional people who did not realise they had overextended themselves financially.

My friends and I all thought just like you then.

I agree with you about renting, but in this climate - Coup/visa changes/property rules enforcement -

would you not consider taking a shower in 100 dollar bills better than taking a bath in them???

By the way I am not trying to attack you - just giving another point of view - I certainly have told my friends in the UK who were considering property over here - not to buy anything for at least a year to see what is going on.

[dsfbrit]

How would you feel if you had to walk away from it ?

Hagler got it right, property is one of the better ways to make safe money (if you are investing) but as always location is the number one factor. It is better to buy a dump in a good location and do it up than to buying a good house in a bad location. Buying a beer bar on the other hand, especially here in Thailand is guaranteed to see your money fly down the soi.

Its an interesting thread - nice one - and the poll shows the majority of people agree with you.

However, good location is very important - and perhaps at the moment there are better locations than Thailand.

At the moment - in the sense of fair debate - you would have to agree Thailand is at least risky and possibly nearly unstable.

Comment removed Astral, moderator.

However, money is made taking risks.

So profits can be made in these riskier environments for sure - there are however people who dont want to wake up every morning wondering if their investment is safe.

They just want to go and play golf and relax and not worry. Its what many farang came here to do.

I guess we are in the minority vote shown above.

Like I said to Hagler-I am not attacking just giving another point of view.

Oh and I must admit am biassed as I bought a house/land through the company route - Headache or what?.

I notice however there are still people earlier in this thread advising that the option to buy a condo via the company route should/could still be considered now or in the future.

I know of several farang who bought a condo this way - its at least dodgy and most experts suggest its probably illegal.

They are not relaxed about the future at all - playing havoc with their golf!

[xbusman]

Casanundra, those are great questions and no one here can really answer them for you.

First, lets not get confused. Buying a car, business, condo, water buffalo, or lending brother money so he can get the full operation and sing at the katoey show are all the exact same. Its called putting your money into Thailand. Any and all investments here have to be done with the first rule in mind.

So IF you have a few million baht to burn, a condo is in my opinion probably the safest and best investment. Third world economies do melt down, some in South America on a more regular basis than Asia, but predicting when and how bad is all but impossible. Anyway, its money you can walk away from so what do you care if there is a melt down? Thats the point.

Since no one can predict the market, and since its money you can throw away, forget trying to time the buy. Real estate is generally considered to be one of the safer investments which is why its real rate of return over the long haul is less than equities. Again, risk versus reward. It is also very illiquid and I think that is particularly true of Thailand. Amazing to me when digging around for property how many units in Bangkok have been empty since the crash in 97. There are still entire office buildings and condos still in moth balls without a single tenant.

So, timing a market is difficult if not impossible. Hagler is correct that even things bought the week of the crash eventually appreciated back to break even levels after ten years. If you have enought other resources to wait out the decade, it always comes back eventually. Everyone in real estate will always tell you that only three things are of any relevence to real estate. Location location location. Over the years, I have seen no real exceptions. The best is when you buy away from everywhere and then turn it into "the location" such as the renewal of inner cities in America, or something like Suvarnabhumi might become.

Regards mass exodus, no one is indicating that is a probability but only a possibility. The point is, its happened numerous times throughout Asia, Burma is a lovely example. Burma used to be THE place to be until one day.... Things in asia change regularly without any thought to continuity. Since the populations have no rights, we have less. Maybe tomorrow they just change the rules to something like only Thais with three proven generations can own any property at all. Maybe not. The point is that rules change all the time, one minute your all fine and legal, getting swarmy, the next minute your a persona non grata. One minute your prime minister, the next you are a refugee in London. We love Thailand because its more stable than the rest, but as you should know by now, its not Holland.

If you choose to invest in Thailand money you cannot afford to lose, than its you and you missed the most important fact you need to learn from the brutal hard experience of the many victims before you. You are a guest here without rights or recourse.

[xbusman]

Man, you just dont get it. Thailand is not like anywhere, its like every third world country on the planet. Your anywhere has courts that work, rights, police that uphold the law and dont set up shake down road blocks, murderers who generally go to jail when caught with the smoking gun, all sorts of things you wont find here. If you do your due dilligence than it means your fine while you hand over your money, nothing more.

Your obviously fixated on disregarding the first rule of Thailand. Be sure to buy higher than ten floors overlooking the parking lot.

[Casanundra]

You're right, I have been living in a time wharped bubble during the past two years in Thailand and haven't a clue

[xbusman]

Land swindler strips monk of B10 million

PONGKAN CHONGCHAIHAN

Nonthaburi _ Popular monk Phra Payom Kalayano, abbot of Wat Suan Kaew, cried foul yesterday for being tricked into paying 10 million baht for an occupied one-rai land plot. The abbot said he had just learned of the provincial court's order to seize the land the temple purchased two years ago, which had fake ownership papers.

When a woman approached him with the offer to sell a plot in front of the temple, the Bang Yai land office confirmed the authenticity of the office-issued title deed. The transfer was also made at the office, he said.

Besides the 10 million baht, the temple had also spent another 400,000 baht on land filling. The monk said he was glad the order came before construction of the planned 40-million-baht building on the plot.

The forgery case had been filed by the real land owner. It turned out that the seller, known only as Wantana, was just the caretaker and she happened to have a daughter working in the Bang Yai land office. Phra Payom will only disclose his next move after the court hands down its ruling on November 9.

''If the court orders no remedy for the temple, we will fight head on,'' the monk said.

Best of luck!!!!

[OlRedEyes]

You're right, I have been living in a time wharped bubble during the past two years in Thailand and haven't a clue

No, you haven't. These things don't happen to you every day, even though they happen every day.

It's a lottery. One day you may win it, or you may never. The point you seem to keep missing is that the risk is high. And you don't even need to piss off a local. Someone may simply become jealous of your success, and hey presto, you win the mystery prize.

Our real estate high flyer fails to stress that he made his initial investments in his own country. The rest is high risk. He's been lucky so far. Who knows what may happen to him tomorrow. He takes too much credit for his 'brilliance' in investing in real estate. It is common knowledge that it is a good investment, in the right LOCATION. the rest is gambling.

[Beavis and Butthead]

If you look at the news from the US every major news outlet has checked in with the fall in the real estate market. Some areas are in the teens some are in the mid 30's. A friend of mine who just visited told me that his two condos in Florida have lost about 22% in just the past few months. The point that I tried to make is that the issue of real estate values going up and down is not unique to Thailand.

My other point is that I bought my home because I loved it. I like waking up here everyday. I don't care if it goes up or down in value because I didn't buy it as an investment. I bought it because I like it.

My other point is life is full of risks no matter where you live. I choose to live balancing the risks with the benefits of a stimulating, challanging life. I don't understand why anyone would come here to Thailand and then constantly complain about living here. If I did not enjoy it as much as I do I would go back to where I came from.

BTW if the crap hits the fan and the doomsday predictors are correct about farangs being rounded up and sent home what makes you think that owning a condo in your name is going to help you?

finally, I will say again. some of you people need to get a life beyond staring at a computer screen and quoting statistics.

Well as far as US real estate values are concerned, it is true that some prices have fallen 20 or 30%. Let me give you some examples. I sold my house in CT in 2001 for $500K, in Fen 2006 it was worth 1.2 Mill. Now that house it worth 800K so yes it is down over 30% but look where it came from. We're talking about a huge housing bubble there. I bought a house in FL in 2001 for 200K and worth 500K in feb 2006, now worth 600K. It's a block from a nice beach. So that house has gone up 20% amidst the bubble popping. In the US, it's location location location

We're not talking about the US though and I would never ever spend 4.5 million up for a condo in Thailand for many of the reasons already brought up. Also the used condo mkt in Thailand stinks. Nobody buys used condos here for some reason. So Gary A boasts about his condo doubling in value. Well Gary, sell the POS and get back to us about its value. I also do not like the sound of this rule that 51% of condo buildings must be owned by Thais. Last I checked, most Thais were poor (excepting hisos) and living in houses and apts for insanely low rents (farangs too, just look around this forum). I'm talking big houses and apts for 3000 baht/mo. I dont like the sound of buying a big money condo in thailand.

[Beavis and Butthead]

xbusman has the best advice in this thread, take heed

[LoveDaBlues]

If you look at the news from the US every major news outlet has checked in with the fall in the real estate market. Some areas are in the teens some are in the mid 30's. A friend of mine who just visited told me that his two condos in Florida have lost about 22% in just the past few months. The point that I tried to make is that the issue of real estate values going up and down is not unique to Thailand.

My other point is that I bought my home because I loved it. I like waking up here everyday. I don't care if it goes up or down in value because I didn't buy it as an investment. I bought it because I like it.

My other point is life is full of risks no matter where you live. I choose to live balancing the risks with the benefits of a stimulating, challanging life. I don't understand why anyone would come here to Thailand and then constantly complain about living here. If I did not enjoy it as much as I do I would go back to where I came from.

BTW if the crap hits the fan and the doomsday predictors are correct about farangs being rounded up and sent home what makes you think that owning a condo in your name is going to help you?

finally, I will say again. some of you people need to get a life beyond staring at a computer screen and quoting statistics.

Well as far as US real estate values are concerned, it is true that some prices have fallen 20 or 30%. Let me give you some examples. I sold my house in CT in 2001 for $500K, in Fen 2006 it was worth 1.2 Mill. Now that house it worth 800K so yes it is down over 30% but look where it came from. We're talking about a huge housing bubble there. I bought a house in FL in 2001 for 200K and worth 500K in feb 2006, now worth 600K. It's a block from a nice beach. So that house has gone up 20% amidst the bubble popping. In the US, it's location location location

We're not talking about the US though and I would never ever spend 4.5 million up for a condo in Thailand for many of the reasons already brought up. Also the used condo mkt in Thailand stinks. Nobody buys used condos here for some reason. So Gary A boasts about his condo doubling in value. Well Gary, sell the POS and get back to us about its value. I also do not like the sound of this rule that 51% of condo buildings must be owned by Thais. Last I checked, most Thais were poor (excepting hisos) and living in houses and apts for insanely low rents (farangs too, just look around this forum). I'm talking big houses and apts for 3000 baht/mo. I dont like the sound of buying a big money condo in thailand.

Kinda harsh making a statement like that unless you've been to his condo.

Personally, I don't want a condo because they are way over-priced per square meter. And no control over crazy neighbors.

As far as RE values in the United States being down 30% that is pure rubbish. The first poster to use the 30% figure didn't say this or that area; he said the US.

[NovaBlue05]

My house in the DC area is down less than 2% since Jan. However, it escalated at a ridiculously high rate for a few straight years so I see the market in a correction as overpriced properties get a little closer to where they actually should be. I bought it in '98 before the bubble started inflating and when I retire to Isaan in 4 years, it will represent a major component of my retirement investment

[bkkandrew]

How would you feel if you had to walk away from it ?

Hagler got it right, property is one of the better ways to make safe money (if you are investing) but as always location is the number one factor. It is better to buy a dump in a good location and do it up than to buying a good house in a bad location. Buying a beer bar on the other hand, especially here in Thailand is guaranteed to see your money fly down the soi.

Its an interesting thread - nice one - and the poll shows the majority of people agree with you.

However, good location is very important - and perhaps at the moment there are better locations than Thailand.

At the moment - in the sense of fair debate - you would have to agree Thailand is at least risky and possibly nearly unstable. .

However, money is made taking risks.

So profits can be made in these riskier environments for sure - there are however people who dont want to wake up every morning wondering if their investment is safe.

They just want to go and play golf and relax and not worry. Its what many farang came here to do.

I guess we are in the minority vote shown above.

Like I said to Hagler-I am not attacking just giving another point of view.

Oh and I must admit am biassed as I bought a house/land through the company route - Headache or what?.

I notice however there are still people earlier in this thread advising that the option to buy a condo via the company route should/could still be considered now or in the future.

I know of several farang who bought a condo this way - its at least dodgy and most experts suggest its probably illegal.

They are not relaxed about the future at all - playing havoc with their golf!

On the subject above, if it happened before the coup is resolved back to democratic government, the would be chaos, probably civil war. We can only pray that this does not happen...

[jumnien]

In my opinion, having spent the last 8 years here in Thailand, this is an excellent time to buy a condo in Thailand. It looks like the Thai economy will continue to do well (while not overheating) and the conditions are changing to vastly increase the number of foreigners living in Thailand.

I've bought 2 condos in Bangkok and 2 in Huahin, the last in Huahin just 3 months ago. I paid over 90% more for the second Huahin condo than the identical first one that I bought 5 years ago.

I make my living in the commercial real estate investment business in the US market only. I am not investing in Thai condos primarily for capital gain (though I believe that will continue to happen). But there is an opportunity here in condo ownership that does not exist in the US. I can own condos here and live rent free and enjoy a bit of appreciation and pay very modest maintenance fees averaging $60 per month per condo. In the US these maintenance fees would average $600 per month and the services provided are far less than in Thailand.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth, Cheers!

[Gary A]

Quote -

I would never ever spend 4.5 million up for a condo in Thailand for many of the reasons already brought up. Also the used condo mkt in Thailand stinks. Nobody buys used condos here for some reason. So Gary A boasts about his condo doubling in value. Well Gary, sell the POS and get back to us about its value. I also do not like the sound of this rule that 51% of condo buildings must be owned by Thais. Last I checked, most Thais were poor (excepting hisos) and living in houses and apts for insanely low rents (farangs too, just look around this forum). I'm talking big houses and apts for 3000 baht/mo. I dont like the sound of buying a big money condo in thailand.

...................

Boasting? I did NOT buy a condo to make a profit. I bought a condo to live in and to eliminate what I considered the biggest variable concerning the cost of living in Thailand. My point was that if I had listened to my friends, I would not have bought that unit. Instead I would have bought a shoebox the same as most of my friends bought. I did NOT want to live in a shoebox and I wasn't looking to make a profit.

If it ever came down to losing my condo, I assure you that I would not miss any meals because of it. Why would I want to sell my condo? I don't need the money and if I were to sell it I doubt I could replace it for the sale price. Thailand is my home and I wouldn't want to leave, BUT it certainly wouldn't be the end of the world for me. I do agree that trying to make money on real estate is risky at best in a country that changes rules and interpretations of those rules from day to day. Buying a house or a condo through a bogus company is not something I would have EVER even considered. I like to think I did my homework BEFORE buying.

[Casanundra]

A colleague of mine has just taken the decision to buy a Condo for 7 million baht.

He really wanted to buy a 10 million one but didn't want to wait 2 years for it to be completed.

The key thing is, there are buyers out there and they are not buying the cheap places either.

[Gary A]

A colleague of mine has just taken the decision to buy a Condo for 7 million baht.

He really wanted to buy a 10 million one but didn't want to wait 2 years for it to be completed.

The key thing is, there are buyers out there and they are not buying the cheap places either.

Maybe I should have mentioned that I would NEVER buy during the construction phase. I bought one that was in a sold out complex, yes, second hand. I wanted to see the security arangements, the condition of the grounds and the balance in the general maintanence fund. My condo is not in the class you are talking about. It is a 60 square meter corner unit with a separate bedroom. I did NOT spend more than I could afford to walk away from. I'm glad that my unit has appreciated in price but it really doesn't matter. I won't say it's not for sale because ALL things are for sale at the right price. I'm just saying that I don't want to sell even at double what I have in it.

[dsfbrit]

I have not bought a condo out here, so what I am repeating here is what people have told me and mostly what I have read on other threads in TV.

Hey for all I know its wrong, but here is the 'horror' story/urban myth.

If you buy a condo in a development that is not yet complete you may / do not know if you will be one of the 49 percent of farang who will own the condo in your own name.

Its first come first served - when the complex is complete - if not in the first 49 percent of farang then you have to do the 'company' thing.

I just know I am going to get 'hammered' for suggesting this - but if this is disputed by later posts I will hunt down the posts in the other threads to try to regain some credibility.

The only reason I mention this its one of the other reasons its difficult to compare risks of ownership

in this country.

I have 'land in the company name headache' to contend with - so when I was researching scenarios to remove the land from the company, I was surprised to learn about the above.

If the farang land ownership is 'illegal' and there could be a 'crackdown' - then the 'condo ownership in company name' which is also 'illegal' could also be the subjct of a 'crackdown'.

By the way - I decided to leave the land in the company name - crackdowns or not. Crackdowns in Thailand seem to occur all the time and after the crackdown its hard to know what actually happened apart for the inevitable announcement that the 'crackdown' was a success.

Edited October 31, 2006 by dsfbrit

[RAZZELL]

hmmm let me see...

I bought my first investment house for $ 16 000 with a mortgage of $ 14 000 ( guaranteed by my folks) when I was 16 ( 29 years ago).

Hmmm let me see....

Behind every "self-made" millionaire....are two rich parents...

[dsfbrit]

A colleague of mine has just taken the decision to buy a Condo for 7 million baht.

He really wanted to buy a 10 million one but didn't want to wait 2 years for it to be completed.

The key thing is, there are buyers out there and they are not buying the cheap places either.

Maybe I should have mentioned that I would NEVER buy during the construction phase. I bought one that was in a sold out complex, yes, second hand.

I think this thread reinforces your point pretty well Gary A.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=90849

This is Thailand and there are all sorts of risks not associated with buying in the West.

Casundra, I am not trying to be negative about all this - I am just trying to remove the fact from the fiction. So please dont take it the wrong way when I ask:

1. Has your colleague been guaranteed a condo in his own name ?

2. If yes - does he have this in writing?

3. How will they allocate the condos so that the 49 percent farang ownership rule is satisfied?

Edited November 1, 2006 by dsfbrit

[Casanundra]

A colleague of mine has just taken the decision to buy a Condo for 7 million baht.

He really wanted to buy a 10 million one but didn't want to wait 2 years for it to be completed.

The key thing is, there are buyers out there and they are not buying the cheap places either.

Maybe I should have mentioned that I would NEVER buy during the construction phase. I bought one that was in a sold out complex, yes, second hand.

I think this thread reinforces your point pretty well Gary A.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=90849

This is Thailand and there are all sorts of risks not associated with buying in the West.

Casundra, I am not trying to be negative about all this - I am just trying to remove the fact from the fiction. So please dont take it the wrong way when I ask:

1. Has your colleague been guaranteed a condo in his own name ?

2. If yes - does he have this in writing?

3. How will they allocate the condos so that the 49 percent farang ownership rule is satisfied?

Funny you mention this actually because yesterday I was telling him to make sure that in his Contract that it clearly stipulates that he has been allocated one of the 49% foreign owned Condos and to get it numbered as such. That way, should a dispute arise later down the line then it will at least be a condition for a contract breech should it be refused.

As for the link you mentioned which refers to Belle Park, I am fully aware of that place and it's important to note that Belle park is NOT a new build, it is a former repo ghost build that has recently been completed and refurbished... you may like to read my post on that thread

As for the one I was / am / maybe considering, I have done my homework and went and looked at another couple of builds the same company did to see how the quality has held up and to look at the management and to be honest I have been very impressed so far... the thing for me now is to either risk it and buy at the build stage or wait until it is all completed, to have a look at the juristic rules and regulations and to then decide, assuming of course there are any left at that stage to buy.

Buy not buy, wait not wait, decisions decisions...

Edited November 1, 2006 by Casanundra

[Mobi]

I see no reason why, with the help and advice of a GOOD INDEPENDANT lawyer, that you shouldn't be able to establish catagorically whether or not the condo will be in your name as part of the 49% permitted.

Using breach of contract as a fall back, will not be near enough protection for you in Thai caurts.

If you cannot clarify the ownership question 100% then I wouldn't buy at this stage.

[suiging]

The risks of buying in LOS are the same the world over. Many people have seen their dreams disappear under new roads in Spain. Buyers off plan in Bulgaria are left with the plan and little else etc etc etc.

As Mobi has said get a good lawer, do all the preparatory work properly, and then take the plunge with your fingers crossed. If you were buying in the UK or where ever you would take these simple steps, so do the same here. Never forget to go and look at a block the developers have finished and if possible hang around the reception and seek the advice of owners if they are willing to talk. After that, make your decision, relax and enjoy the pineapples.

[chatette]

Someone made the comment that no one buys secondhand condos in Bangkok. Not true. I just bought one. It's 12 yrs old, cost about 4.2m thb (seller paid transfer fee), 115 sqm, 2 br, 2 bathroom, and is 5 mins including the lift ride from the metro. Building management is great, common charge is very reasonable, location is exceptionally convenient. My condo is presently being given a complete makeover to the tune of about 1.2 m thb, including new PVC doubleframe windows to cut outside noise. My Thai partner and I cobought the condo and my name is also on the title deed.

The comments about Thailand being a lawless zone, hostile to foreigners where property investments are overtly risky are rather overdone. Thailand is not Zimbabwe. If you wish to buy a property to live in, the risk is low. I am not talking of property speculators. Of course, risk rises the more return you expect from your investment.

Another person made the comment that people can be thrown out of the country after years with only the shirt on their back. I know of three people this has happened to. Two were set up for running a pedophile ring on a radio station they managed by a disgruntled sacked employee (Malaysian woman). The charges were tossed out but so were they to save face. The third, a personal friend, was also set up on trumped up pedophille charges a year or so ago. They were also tossed out, as was he subsequently. In his case, his home country set up the charges. So, nothing is certain. But most of us can assume that we can live here for years without the dramas that a few exceptions endure.

Edited November 2, 2006 by chatette

[thaigene2]

NEVER PUT MORE MONEY HERE THAN YOU ARE WILLING TO WALK AWAY FROM

We are guests of His Majesty in a land without any really predictable law or regulations and as guest have no rights, and especially no priveleges. [...] you have to come to terms with the very temporary and tenuous nature of your "visit" to the LOS. Interestingly enough, the people who understand this the best are those that survived all the multiple upheavals and have been here for decades.

[...]

Just always be prepared to close that door one day and hand the keys to next passerby with a smile and wave as your invitation here expires.

Yes that pretty much sums it up. Owning a condo doesn't give you the right to stay here Casanundra. You and I may be married to thais and have our work permits now - but what about next year? When the work permit expires - kiss your wife and kids goodby and make sure you're out of the country within 7 days. Who wants to buy a property under those circumstances. That's what the OP means by not investing anymore than you are prepared to walk away from. If 4.5 million is small change to you then it's a non-issue. If it's your life savings -- it's a BIG gamble. TG2

[thedude]

A colleague of mine has just taken the decision to buy a Condo for 7 million baht.

He really wanted to buy a 10 million one but didn't want to wait 2 years for it to be completed.

The key thing is, there are buyers out there and they are not buying the cheap places either.

Maybe I should have mentioned that I would NEVER buy during the construction phase. I bought one that was in a sold out complex, yes, second hand.

I think this thread reinforces your point pretty well Gary A.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=90849

This is Thailand and there are all sorts of risks not associated with buying in the West.

Casundra, I am not trying to be negative about all this - I am just trying to remove the fact from the fiction. So please dont take it the wrong way when I ask:

1. Has your colleague been guaranteed a condo in his own name ?

2. If yes - does he have this in writing?

3. How will they allocate the condos so that the 49 percent farang ownership rule is satisfied?

Funny you mention this actually because yesterday I was telling him to make sure that in his Contract that it clearly stipulates that he has been allocated one of the 49% foreign owned Condos and to get it numbered as such. That way, should a dispute arise later down the line then it will at least be a condition for a contract breech should it be refused.

As for the link you mentioned which refers to Belle Park, I am fully aware of that place and it's important to note that Belle park is NOT a new build, it is a former repo ghost build that has recently been completed and refurbished... you may like to read my post on that thread

As for the one I was / am / maybe considering, I have done my homework and went and looked at another couple of builds the same company did to see how the quality has held up and to look at the management and to be honest I have been very impressed so far... the thing for me now is to either risk it and buy at the build stage or wait until it is all completed, to have a look at the juristic rules and regulations and to then decide, assuming of course there are any left at that stage to buy.

Buy not buy, wait not wait, decisions decisions...

good points Casanundra. i'd just like to add that the industry has gone through a lot of consolidation in the past 2 years, small and less professional developers have pretty much been filtered out of the market due to the credit squeeze imposed by banks (for example, if you are a no-name developer with no track record, banks will not lend you money even if you pledge the land to the bank, this has been enforced most tightly in the last 2 years). good rule of thumb is to try focussing on developers that are listed on the stock exchange, and to look at their portfolio of past and present projects. listed developers need at least a semblance of good governance due to reporting requirements to the SET, and at the end of the day are also accountable to open market investors. not a guarantee, but at least some added comfort on ability to deliver and professionalism.

[quiksilva]

What most people fail to mention here is that condo values rarely increase much beyond their initial launch.

Sure buy off plan and maybe for the 18 months you will see some appreciation as your values increase by piggy backing speculators' transactions but thereafter you'll be lucky to see it maintain its value let alone appreciate further.

Property management in this country is poor, even the big international names find it hard to find experienced specialist managers, and then anyone who has managed any firm in Thailand can share typical management head aches.

Above all else, if you have decided that you absolutely MUST invest here, be sure that the condo project has sufficient sinking funds to pay for the replacement of major parts (lift cables etc) and to undertake refurbishment plans 10-15 years into its life cycle.

In order that you can find still find tenants and are able to resell should you wish to unload it at some point. Older established low rise condos ar probably best as there is also a greater likelihood that everyone is paying CAM fees and the bills are getting paid.

[besth]

The value and specially the re-sale potential of second hand condos is a bit of a concern for me.

I have been looking for a couple of months and I have seen at least 2 re-sales that are close to what I look for, and they are within my budget. None of the 2 are "ideal", so I've kept looking, although I'm coming to terms with the fact that I will have accept the inconveniences of the older condos or else I will have to settle for something smaller in a new building.

What worries me specially about the 2nd hand value is that the agents who showed me those two properties have called a few times since then, each time with a hint that the seller is "keen" (desperate?) to sell, so I could put in a lower offer.

Of course this is good now, but it makes me think that I may find myself in an even worse position in 4 or 5 years time when I want to move.

Does anyone know if there is a difference in values of 2nd vs. 3rd, 4th, etc. hand properties?

Sorry if the post is a bit out of topic.

Answering to the question about buying or not buying a condo now: I intend to do that in the (hopefuly very) near future, as long as it is one that can be registered in my own name.