Under The Current Climate Would You Buy A Condo?

[thaigene2]

The value and specially the re-sale potential of second hand condos is a bit of a concern for me.

What worries me specially about the 2nd hand value is that the agents who showed me those two properties have called a few times since then, each time with a hint that the seller is "keen" (desperate?) to sell, so I could put in a lower offer.

Of course this is good now, but it makes me think that I may find myself in an even worse position in 4 or 5 years time when I want to move.

Sorry if the post is a bit out of topic.

Don't think it's off topic at all. It's what we're all struggling with. Add financing problems and it gets worse.

I want to buy too...but my better judgmenet tells me it's a stupid idea - for some of the reasons you outlined above. Also, the only financing available at present is if you buy a house through your wife's name. They will let you 'guarantee' to pay the loan for 'her' house but within only 8 years (are they hedging against 7 year itch?). A 3 million baht loan would cost nearly 40,000 baht per month in repayments. How many of us are secure or confident enough that 3 or 4 years from now we'll be to earn enough of a local salary to continue meet those payments month, after month, after month??

I'd rather have a nice big condo - but can't afford it..and no financing is available to farangs for condos

My better judgment screams FORGET IT!! Rent it's cheaper and stay ready to flee Thailand if necessary..with your bank account intact. But I'd still like to buy something..it's stupid really.

[yoshiwara]

yes I would buy if it was exactly what I wanted..but don't buy a 'compromise' for investment purposes...too much hassle.

[quiksilva]

Buy a home (condo / house) if you are confident that you are going to be living here a while but dont look at it as an investment, look at it as an alternative to paying rent.

If you absolutely must invest some portion of your savings in real estate buy a REIT such as TICON's TFUND or Central's CPN. Its still not very liquid but much more liquid than a secondhand condo, plus the returns are far better and the risks are lower too as revenues are backed by firms on 3 years leases, who also tend to be good covenants.

Finding a condo project that appreciates in value (beyond the first 18 months) is like finding a needle in a haystack, because the vast majority of local buyers prefer brand new projects and have no appetite for secondhand homes. (Spirits and such...)

Also resales and refurbs is pretty much restricted to the Expat market, and a few savvy Thais, but there is money to be made here, if you can structure the venture so that it can bear void periods on units of 6-9 months.

Oh and if you are certain (as much as one can be) that you'll be here for a while and want to buy a house acting as a guarantor for your wife; check out Banks such as UOB.

You'll find that the repayment terms will be superior to local banks, yes the mortgage rates will be a little higher, but the monthly payments will be more manageable (eg. 90% over 20 years), you'll need to be legally married though and everything registered at your Embassy.

[Firefan]

Having been "grandfathered" into investment visa renewals my condo actually have "double value" to me. I save the rent+save 30-80k/year in visa related costs (flight to home country/3 month visa runs Etc. Naturally depends on solution taken).

Being single/below 50 with overseas income my condo allows me to legally stay for 1900 Baht per year with no visa runs.

Would I buy today....? Not sure - but am keeping my eyes open for oppurtunities. Cheers!

[besth]

Renting is definitely the most comfortable option to avoid financial worries, but buying is tempting, as thaigene2 mentions. Renting also has all the troubles related with dealing with landlords, exhorbitant charges for electricity...

I'm not looking at buying as an investment (an investment would be a second property, if I could afford one) but as a way to, firstly, find a place where I would really like to live and secondly, but also important, maybe a way to be able to keep up in the "rat race" (not that I particularly enjoy racing with rats, they always win).

Now I still can afford to buy something that can suit my taste as well as my needs, without straining myself beyond reason financially. The way prices keep going up, I'm not sure this will still be so in a few years time. Part of my reasoning is that if all property prices go up, if I buy now, mine should increase in value too and, if/when the time comes when I want or need to move to something bigger, I will have limited damage, as the price difference hopefully should be similar to what it is now.

In my previous post, I mentioned that it concerned me to buy a 2nd hand property, as it might lose more value once it became a "3rd hand". Can anyone give me any information about this?

I have seen that quiksilva mentions that new condos also start losing value after 18 months, if I understood correctly. Is that really the case? I know they become 2nd hand, but from what I have seen in the newer, nice buildings, prices seem to still go up even for the 2nd hand properties available.

[dsfbrit]

Renting is definitely the most comfortable option to avoid financial worries, but buying is tempting, as thaigene2 mentions. Renting also has all the troubles related with dealing with landlords, exhorbitant charges for electricity...

I'm not looking at buying as an investment (an investment would be a second property, if I could afford one) but as a way to, firstly, find a place where I would really like to live and secondly, but also important, maybe a way to be able to keep up in the "rat race" (not that I particularly enjoy racing with rats, they always win).

Now I still can afford to buy something that can suit my taste as well as my needs, without straining myself beyond reason financially. The way prices keep going up, I'm not sure this will still be so in a few years time. Part of my reasoning is that if all property prices go up, if I buy now, mine should increase in value too and, if/when the time comes when I want or need to move to something bigger, I will have limited damage, as the price difference hopefully should be similar to what it is now.

In my previous post, I mentioned that it concerned me to buy a 2nd hand property, as it might lose more value once it became a "3rd hand". Can anyone give me any information about this?

I have seen that quiksilva mentions that new condos also start losing value after 18 months, if I understood correctly. Is that really the case? I know they become 2nd hand, but from what I have seen in the newer, nice buildings, prices seem to still go up even for the 2nd hand properties available.

If I were you I would buy a condo in your own name - you really like - in a good location that you can comfortably afford.

All the other stuff if just 'clutter' - you can never guess a market - what will happen in 10 years time etc... so why bother trying.

The important thing is that you want to live there for the foreseeable future.

If you decide that then you will resolve any problems that come along - just as you have resolved all the problems that have come along during your life so far.

Hope you find somewhere nice.

Edited November 9, 2006 by dsfbrit

[Tolley]

I go along with those that think buying is an unecessary risk.

Way too many legal obstacles and very little rights or protections for the farang buyer.

The other issue is that it is difficult to sell if you need to get out in a hurry.

Much easier to rent in Thailand and if troubles come by way of neighbours, disgruntled work colleagues, grudges, tone of area etc pack your bags and move on.

Invest money in your home country and spend the proceeds in Thailand.

[bkkandrew]

I go along with those that think buying is an unecessary risk.

Way too many legal obstacles and very little rights or protections for the farang buyer.

The other issue is that it is difficult to sell if you need to get out in a hurry.

Much easier to rent in Thailand and if troubles come by way of neighbours, disgruntled work colleagues, grudges, tone of area etc pack your bags and move on.

Invest money in your home country and spend the proceeds in Thailand.

You are a veritable sage! Good quote..

[Gary A]

What will the future bring??? If we knew the answer to that we would certainly be set for life.

I came here to retire and NOT to dabble in real estate especially real estate that I couldn't legally own. That meant the only thing I COULD legally own was a condo. I wasn't too excited about buying either until I got really tired of my landlord raising the rent, adding his little surcharge (25%) on my electric bill and handing out very high water bills. Not being able to hang a clock in the kitchen was not that big a thing in itself but it was the straw that broke this camel's back. I lived there during the final construction phase and put up with a LOT of noise. When things finally got quieted down the rent went up.

I paid too much (according to my friends) for a condo that I really liked. I bought it to live in so I didn't really care. It has nearly doubled in value in less than four years so if you know anyone who bought a condo that lost value in the past few years, I'll show you a guy who paid WAY too much or a guy who bought a shoe box. Shoe box condos are still available for about 400,000 baht. Even two 28 square meter shoe boxes put together is still fairly small and the layout is not likely to be very functional or pleasing to the eye.

[Swelters]

Quality.

It's all about quality, isn't it? Quality visas, quality property, quality women.

Swelters

[besth]

Renting is definitely the most comfortable option to avoid financial worries, but buying is tempting, as thaigene2 mentions. Renting also has all the troubles related with dealing with landlords, exhorbitant charges for electricity...

I'm not looking at buying as an investment (an investment would be a second property, if I could afford one) but as a way to, firstly, find a place where I would really like to live and secondly, but also important, maybe a way to be able to keep up in the "rat race" (not that I particularly enjoy racing with rats, they always win).

Now I still can afford to buy something that can suit my taste as well as my needs, without straining myself beyond reason financially. The way prices keep going up, I'm not sure this will still be so in a few years time. Part of my reasoning is that if all property prices go up, if I buy now, mine should increase in value too and, if/when the time comes when I want or need to move to something bigger, I will have limited damage, as the price difference hopefully should be similar to what it is now.

In my previous post, I mentioned that it concerned me to buy a 2nd hand property, as it might lose more value once it became a "3rd hand". Can anyone give me any information about this?

I have seen that quiksilva mentions that new condos also start losing value after 18 months, if I understood correctly. Is that really the case? I know they become 2nd hand, but from what I have seen in the newer, nice buildings, prices seem to still go up even for the 2nd hand properties available.

If I were you I would buy a condo in your own name - you really like - in a good location that you can comfortably afford.

All the other stuff if just 'clutter' - you can never guess a market - what will happen in 10 years time etc... so why bother trying.

The important thing is that you want to live there for the foreseeable future.

If you decide that then you will resolve any problems that come along - just as you have resolved all the problems that have come along during your life so far.

Hope you find somewhere nice.

That was a very kind (and wise) message dsfbrit.

You didn't really say anything I didn't know already, but sometimes we need to be reminded of the obvious.

Thank you.

[Guest RealEstateBroker]

Over the years I have bought and sold stuff in Samui, Bangkok and Jomtien. Things have

changed. I feel I was lucky to make a good profit on the places I bought and sold when

I look back on the past. Now, I would NOT buy anything in Thailand until the crazyness

goes away and the goverment tells the world the rules, period. I do investing for a living

and with the current situation regarding farangs not being allow to stay in Thailand who are

under 50 for a long time scares the hel_l out of me from a investment point of view...

on one hand maybe nothing will change....on the other hand depending on the new

goverment eyerything will change.

[englishoak]

Realestatebroker.

Amen to that

[unforgiven]

Nothing complicated about the first rule of Thailand.

NEVER PUT MORE MONEY HERE THAN YOU ARE WILLING TO WALK AWAY FROM

We are guests of His Majesty in a land without any really predictable law or regulations and as guest have no rights, and especially no priveleges. They can (and do) show up at your door at midnight and take you, your passport and favorite shirt to the airport for a one way trip anywhere but here. They can (and do) change legislation, ex posto facto in most cases, change visa requirements, change any ###### thing they please (and do). Having knowledge of this, you have to come to terms with the very temporary and tenuous nature of your "visit" to the LOS. Interestingly enough, the people who understand this the best are those that survived all the multiple upheavals and have been here for decades.

So in the end, if you live your life in preparation for that day when all entry visas become void and you have six hours to catch the next flight out, and are able to leave without a regret or a financial loss that will cripple your ability to live, then you are indeed a wise and astute survivor in an often tough and unpredictable clime.

But if you plow your hard earned currency in illiquid assets or even banks that do conform to EU or US banking regulations of transparency and protection to a level that will devastate you, then you are in line to join the many Pattaya flyers fulfilling Darwins theories from the high balconies of Jomtien.

The slowly evaporating Elite card is a wonderful example. Many of the buyers can smoke 1M baht with breakfast tea and never even note the smoke. For them, its a wonderful thing, even if it lasts only a year or two, that is what money is for after all. But for all the rest of us who might have a rather bad week to find ourselves short a million baht, its an amazingly ludicrous and funny scam offering up the mirth and laughter that makes living here so fun. We all of us know that the Som Nam Na is coming, but in the interim the wealthy get pampered while the poor hang on to reality.

So if you have 4.5M baht laying around, stuffed in an old coffee can or something, and you are just dying to get stuck next to some unknown neighbors for the duration, by all means you should throw that spare change at anyone or anything that so catches your fancy. Just always be prepared to close that door one day and hand the keys to next passerby with a smile and wave as your invitation here expires.

these are all accurate comments,but your ignoring the 2 greatest factors...1 tourism is thailands #1 industry,#2 never underestimate thai's love of $$$$$.......ou r's that is!!!

[Soju]

Over the years I have bought and sold stuff in Samui, Bangkok and Jomtien. Things have

changed. I feel I was lucky to make a good profit on the places I bought and sold when

I look back on the past. Now, I would NOT buy anything in Thailand until the crazyness

goes away and the goverment tells the world the rules, period. I do investing for a living

and with the current situation regarding farangs not being allow to stay in Thailand who are

under 50 for a long time scares the hel_l out of me from a investment point of view...

on one hand maybe nothing will change....on the other hand depending on the new

goverment eyerything will change.

Agreed! It is quite easy to see a scenario where suddenly everything changed overnight and many investors lose all they have. I think one would be extremely foolish to buy something now for investment purposes. It's way too risky compared to other international real estate markets and the potential upside doesn't seem to be that great to me. I do plan to buy once the situation stabilizes, but definitely not now. Under the current climate, I can rest easy at night by just renting and not worrying if half the farangs are forced out of the country soon or not.

[dsfbrit]

Over the years I have bought and sold stuff in Samui, Bangkok and Jomtien. Things have

changed. I feel I was lucky to make a good profit on the places I bought and sold when

I look back on the past. Now, I would NOT buy anything in Thailand until the crazyness

goes away and the goverment tells the world the rules, period. I do investing for a living

and with the current situation regarding farangs not being allow to stay in Thailand who are

under 50 for a long time scares the hel_l out of me from a investment point of view...

on one hand maybe nothing will change....on the other hand depending on the new

goverment eyerything will change.

Agreed! It is quite easy to see a scenario where suddenly everything changed overnight and many investors lose all they have. I think one would be extremely foolish to buy something now for investment purposes. It's way too risky compared to other international real estate markets and the potential upside doesn't seem to be that great to me. I do plan to buy once the situation stabilizes, but definitely not now. Under the current climate, I can rest easy at night by just renting and not worrying if half the farangs are forced out of the country soon or not.

Two sensible posts in my opinion and good to hear someone like RealEstateBroker -who by his name alone gives a subtle clue to the fact he invests in property.

Where I would disagree slightly is that we could be mixing apples and oranges here.

People like me buy one property to live in - not as an investment. Its worth zero baht as far as we are concerned - I dont intend to sell.

If you are a part of the group of farang that are not affected by the visa rules then why not buy now?

Lets face it - if you are waiting for things to 'stabilize' in Thailand - you may be waiting a long time!

Farang that are 'safe' now with the visa rules changes may not be safe in 5 years time.

Its one of the joys of living in LOS.

By the way, I am one of the sad souls that has mistakenly bought a house through the company

route. So if anyone should be able to assess the relative safety of owning a condo you can afford in a good location - then I guess I am as well placed as anyone (wish I had bought a condo as described instead of a house with land!).

[Soju]

Two sensible posts in my opinion and good to hear someone like RealEstateBroker -who by his name alone gives a subtle clue to the fact he invests in property.

Where I would disagree slightly is that we could be mixing apples and oranges here.

People like me buy one property to live in - not as an investment. Its worth zero baht as far as we are concerned - I dont intend to sell.

If you are a part of the group of farang that are not affected by the visa rules then why not buy now?

Lets face it - if you are waiting for things to 'stabilize' in Thailand - you may be waiting a long time!

Farang that are 'safe' now with the visa rules changes may not be safe in 5 years time.

Its one of the joys of living in LOS.

By the way, I am one of the sad souls that has mistakenly bought a house through the company

route. So if anyone should be able to assess the relative safety of owning a condo you can afford in a good location - then I guess I am as well placed as anyone (wish I had bought a condo as described instead of a house with land!).

Agree with you also. If you're not buying for investment purposes, but to live in the place long-term, then by all means make a purchase when you find a good place at a price you're comfortable with, provided you feel secure in your ability to stay in Thailand. With a lot of emphasis on that last part. If you get kicked out of the country in a couple months, you'll be very sorry for making a purchase that might be difficult to sell or on which you'll lose a lot of money.

My primary purpose in buying a place will be to live there, but I also want it for investment purposes as I don't plan to live there forever. Thus I want to hold off as I have no need to make a purchase until the time and price is right.

[xbusman]

I agree with all of you. If you buy for investment, or buy just for personal use, its great for you AS LONG AS you dont put any more money into thailand than you can comfortably lose without impairing your lifestyle or future in any way.

If you have an extra few million baht currently invested in sayyyyyy pork belly futures since 1979 which you entirely forgot about, and you have an itch to buy something in Thailand for any reason.... Have at it. Investment or personal, it will be a moment of personal growth and adventure as you straighten out whatever you dont like while navigating the labrynthine beauracracy. Just like pork bellies, prepare to have your investment disappear overnight but unlike pork bellies, your adventure in Thai real estate will still give you great cocktail party stories for years to come.

Lots of opinions on the investment quality of real estate in Thailand. If you live here, it might be more convenient to invest your spare pork belly money here but I always felt that with all investments there should be a return to risk evaluation. Considering the very large risk of investing in a third world country illegally (with the small exception of a condo completely under the rules which is legal but still risky) do you think the returns would be better than other risky investments such as junk bonds or venture capital? Investing illegally in a country without clear and uniformly applied regulations is rather a poor business plan and appears to me to be more of an "in front of you" approach. Buying real estate in your home country should afford you an almost equal return at a far far lower risk, at least you have a fighting chance and will be allowed in the country to put up a defense if necessary.

For all this conversation of do and/or dont, no one has yet disagreed with the first law of Thailand. If you are only putting money here that you discover in the bottom of your closet, than either for living or investment its entirely up to you. I think you will find the general consensus to be that its not a very good investment compared to all the other investment vehicles out there world wide but when it comes to investing often times the majority is wrong.

Get that first law tattooed somewhere visible as you reach for your wallet, have it printed on your checkbook and be sure to write it on the back of your Visa card. Being safe means knowing your limits and unfortunately we often realize that specific limit only while we are carrying a chair to the balcony railing.

[thaihome]

these are all accurate comments,but your ignoring the 2 greatest factors...1 tourism is thailands #1 industry...

Uh, afraid not even close... Biggest industry is mass farming for export, followed closely by various manufacturing.

You spend far too much time in one of maybe 4 places to have any idea what Thailand is about.

TH

[unforgiven]

these are all accurate comments,but your ignoring the 2 greatest factors...1 tourism is thailands #1 industry...

Uh, afraid not even close... Biggest industry is mass farming for export, followed closely by various manufacturing.

You spend far too much time in one of maybe 4 places to have any idea what Thailand is about.

TH

I disagree buddy in capital terms tourism generates the greatest gnp (do you know what gnp is genus),check your facts and I've lived here on and of since 1989 for a combined total of about 10 years

Edited November 14, 2006 by unforgiven

[stevejones123]

Nobody seems to be asking one or two pertinent questions. Firstly what is the return on investment (ROI). If you want to avoid being stung on the stock market you don't normally buy stocks where you the price ROI/ratio is over 15.

Equally, I have heard it said that you shouldn't invest in the buy to rent market in the States if the price of the real estate is greater than 120-150 monthly rentals (I believe the figure in the States at present is in many areas in the region of 300). What are the figures for Thailand condos (last I heard they were around 4% annual return on investment, thats a figure of over 300 monthly rentals).

Now, even if you are not buying for investment you do have the alternative of renting and putting your cash in treasury bonds or other investments.

Which brings us to the second point; what else would you do with the cash? A lot of people buy property, not because it is a good deal compared to renting, but because they know that if they don't sink the money into property they won't hold on to it.

I may add however, that the idea of investing a large amount of money in a country you barely know, which is well known for setting many traps to the unwary real estate developer, and with not only an official language the farang won't know but a script he can't even decipher, seems foolish.

I would suggest the guy rents a furnished place and looks around a few months.

[Gary A]

Americans who purchased a condo should be particularly happy right now. With the dollar dropping like a rock at least you don't have to worry about the rent going up in dollar terms. That's the main reason I bought in the first place. That stabilized the biggest variable that I could see as far as the cost of living here in the Kingdom. Some spending is discretionary but rent is NOT.

[thaihome]

these are all accurate comments,but your ignoring the 2 greatest factors...1 tourism is thailands #1 industry...

Uh, afraid not even close... Biggest industry is mass farming for export, followed closely by various manufacturing.

You spend far too much time in one of maybe 4 places to have any idea what Thailand is about.

TH

I disagree buddy in capital terms tourism generates the greatest gnp (do you know what gnp is genus),check your facts and I've lived here on and of since 1989 for a combined total of about 10 years

Oh great one, why don't you enlighten me with your 10 years living in Thailand and give me some facts that back-up your bold statement?

TH

[unforgiven]

these are all accurate comments,but your ignoring the 2 greatest factors...1 tourism is thailands #1 industry...

Uh, afraid not even close... Biggest industry is mass farming for export, followed closely by various manufacturing.

You spend far too much time in one of maybe 4 places to have any idea what Thailand is about.

TH

I disagree buddy in capital terms tourism generates the greatest gnp (do you know what gnp is genus),check your facts and I've lived here on and of since 1989 for a combined total of about 10 years

Oh great one, why don't you enlighten me with your 10 years living in Thailand and give me some facts that back-up your bold statement?

TH

Some facts, check the government sites, it's all there.Tourism and related industries is the greatest % of gnp... not gdp..... GNP.........do you have any economics backgrond?

[Schooner]

how about a couple of points your all missing.

If condos are such a bad investment than why are 4 mega projects currently under construction?

Apparently you fellas know more than the hundreds of professional people who worked out that building huge condo projects in Pattaya is a good investment.

A great piece of advise I heard from a successful invester when ask how he was so profitable he replied" I don't know anything about investing I just do what Warren Buffet does" same principle here. I think I'll choose to go with the professionals who are anticipating a huge influx of farangs to buy these properties.

Furthermore, I have to agree that Thailand's rule of law is a little rough around the edges but the important thing to remember is that the rules come and go but nothing ever really changes. The recent crack down on visas is met to rid the country of undesireables. If your one of those than I agree that you should not invest in Thailand. If you are not than you have nothing to worry about.

Here is some recent news that you may have missed. S&P takes Thailand of the watch list and restores it's A/A-1 currency rating the reason they gave is "the kingdom outlook is stable" Thailands real growth is 5% and debt is 29% of GDP. Visitors to the kingdom in the fourth quarter are up 6% over last year in spite of the coup. Thailand's flagship hospitals experencing 30% growth. I have to agree that living here it looks a little messy sometimes but the trends are good and so is the history.

Lets not even mention the millions of baby boomers who are loaded and looking for a warm place to retire.

I think that the gloom and doom posters have maybe been burned by there bar investment or there bg girlfriend to have the completly negative position that they have. Clearly they do not like Thailand for some reason and wish it harm.

[thaihome]

these are all accurate comments,but your ignoring the 2 greatest factors...1 tourism is thailands #1 industry...

Uh, afraid not even close... Biggest industry is mass farming for export, followed closely by various manufacturing.

You spend far too much time in one of maybe 4 places to have any idea what Thailand is about.

TH

I disagree buddy in capital terms tourism generates the greatest gnp (do you know what gnp is genus),check your facts and I've lived here on and of since 1989 for a combined total of about 10 years

Oh great one, why don't you enlighten me with your 10 years living in Thailand and give me some facts that back-up your bold statement?

TH

Some facts, check the government sites, it's all there.Tourism and related industries is the greatest % of gnp... not gdp..... GNP.........do you have any economics backgrond?

Here are some links :

Even by GNP, unless you call the entire services industry as "tourism", it comes second to industry.

Thailand GNP

What I see translates into billions baht (at 35 USD):

agriculture:637

industry: 2,838

services: 2,961

TAT estimates tourism at about 368 billion baht, allowing for the huge unreported part of the tourism industry you could even more than triple to 1,000 billion baht and still does not approach non-tourism.

And please, if you have something else to say , post sources for your facts

And if you are going to insist on a CV with emphasis on economics, please post yours first, you made the claim first.

Who knows, you may have PhD in economic from University Chicagoand just blow me out of the water....

But then again, you could have sat on barstool on Beach Rd for 10 years and have now idea what actually makes Thailand tick.

Me, I'm just a lowly oil and gas sort of guy, doing ok in Thailand...

Over to you

TH

[xbusman]

Schooner, you do a wonderful job of completely missing the point. No one here is gloom and doom. To say its not a wonderful investment or is a wonderful investment is foolish, everyone has differant goals, investment capital, etc. But to think that you have rights here or any sort of protection is patently wrong, proven so many times in so many ways as to make the statement ludicrous.

The correct answer is that some feel good about the investment, some feel bad, but in the end it does not matter if you dont bring more to thailand than you are willing to walk away from.

I was playing golf with my group of old old asia hands, some in country for over 30 years, the only way any of them had bought property over the years was in their childrens names, all of which were Thai citizens. Most have never purchased and laughed when I brought it up. In fact, I was amazed to learn that after being here decades, they still only kept about a months money in the country at any give time. That surprised me.

I personally have never been burned by an investment yet but can provide lots of links. Regards the mega projects currently under construction, as I look for new property for both my business and living accomodations, I am constantly amazed at the massive amount of empty space everywhere in Bangkok. Entire ghost developments still empty since 97, entire high rises completely empty, I have never come across anything like it anywhere. I think about all that empty space every time I pass those skeleton towers out by Mung Thong Thani that kicked off the Asian crisis ten years ago, a monument to hubris and poor planning that will stand for ages because they cant be finished and cost too much to tear down. It doesnt usually pay to think like a lemming.

I particularly love Thailand and wish it the very best, too many good people here to think otherwise. More specifically though, by acting with common sense and seeing the larger picture of what makes sense for us "guests" perhaps we can reduce the Pattaya flying club. Other old timers blazed the trail for me and it helped immensly, we should keep the path well marked for those that come behind, particularly in regards to hidden danger.

Warning, investing in Thailand is thin ice. Be sure to have safety rope and emergency assistance available in the event that you go into the icy waters of reality. Be sure you have additional dry clothes and tinder in a safe secure location. Walk softly, avoid sudden movement, and in the event of loud cracking noises, be sure to listen and react appropriately. Be prepared to drop your pack and sprint for solid ground.

[thaihome]

...I have never come across anything like it anywhere...

don't get around much do you? Ever driven through Southern China?, How about outskirts of KL?

I know many guys been in Thailand for 20-30 years, everyone of them has at least one house (in wife's name) and certainly don't brag about only keeping one months cost in Thailand. Of course, most of these guys work for overseas at huge salaries, so they keep money pretty much everywhere...

TH

[xbusman]

Get around alot thanks, and have yet to find that much property empty for so long, so widespread. Spend lots of time in China but its a big country and a massive population, perhaps I missed a few there.

No one was bragging about keeping one months salary, be careful with making inferences. I specifically brought up the conversation of assets in Thailand and when really considered they were a bit surprised about how little they kept here on the ground.

Again, people who work overseas at huge salaries usually have a large surplus of capital they can invest, and if lost, walk away from with no problem. For them, a house in the wifes name or a sick buffalo, its not a problem and they are living by the rule. If the fit hits the shan, they call the company and have a new visa made out for Costa Rica in 24 hours. I specifically brought it up with expats who have made this their home and life for the past decades and are living inside a day to day budget. If you are Monson, a palsy 120 million dollar donation to the Thaksin sick buffalo fund is simply an inconvenient write off, I wanted to talk to old timers who have their butt on the line every day and survived it all.

So in the end, I think we can all agree. Property may or may not be a good investment but under no circumstance should any expat put more money into Thailand than they can comfortably walk away from.

Edited November 16, 2006 by xbusman

[stevejones123]

So in the end, I think we can all agree. Property may or may not be a good investment but under no circumstance should any expat put more money into Thailand than they can comfortably walk away from.

It does seem to me that there is much unwarranted scar-mongering about people being expelled at a moment's notice. How many people have actually been stuck on the next plane? How many people caught out by a change in visa rules have not been able to sort things out so they still stay in the country?

Buying a condo with credit is risky because of the lack of security, either in the job itself or on the work permit front. Putting the condo in the wife's name or in the name of a company requires considerable confidence, either in one's wife or one's lawyer or both, and opening a business, particularly in tourism is risky anywhere (something like 80% of new businesses in the States go broke).

I think it would be much more sensible to say No expat should put money into Thailand he is not prepared to have to leave there for a long time. The property market is illiquid compared to the US or the UK, and the kind of places many expats buy property in (tourist resorts) are those where the property is unlikely to sell quickly anywhere in the world.

The problem with your advice is that it is so extreme, that when people investigate they decide it's unreliable and then go to the other extreme and make unwise investments they haven't thought out.