Is There Actually a '28-Day Rule' on Dating for Documents ?

[crazydrummerpauly]

Should be a simple one - when applying for a Spouse Visa for the UK, i remember reading a while ago that there is a 'Rule' about the dating of all the crucial supporting documents, such as Bank statements, Employment, Mortgage etc, and that this 'rule' states that they must not be older then 28 days. Is this a real 'rule', as i also remember reading a post from someone long ago who got their Settlement visa with those docs as much as 3 and 4 months out of date. For me, it's a worry about getting bang up-to-date savings documents, since outfits like building societies only send out an actual paper summary of an account ONCE a year (usually around April) now that everything is online. Clarification and personal experiences gratefully received !

Edited March 29, 2016 by crazydrummerpauly

[7by7]

Relying on 'a post from someone long ago' is unwise; the rules and requirements changed significantly in July 2012.

From the financial appendix

3.3. Evidence requirements – general information

3.3.8. Where Appendix FM-SE requires the applicant to provide specified evidence relating to a period which ends with the date of application, that evidence must be dated no earlier than 28 days before the date of application.

You can either ask your building society for a current statement covering the required period, or print out the online one.

Note, though,

3.3.4. Bank statements must be on official bank stationery. Alternatively, electronic bank statements can also be accepted for all bank accounts (the account itself does not have to be exclusively online) as long as they are either accompanied by a letter from the bank on its headed stationery confirming that the documents are authentic or which bear the official stamp of the issuing bank on every page.

I know that refers to bank statements, but if you read on you will see that building society statements, pass books etc. are treated as if they are bank statements.

[crazydrummerpauly]

Thanks 7x7. Trying to do the settlement application from Thailand is not easy in terms of this dating rule. Given the time it can take to get documents from the UK, and getting the statements sent out from various companies all at the same time is not stress-free.

How can anyone use online statements and then have them authorised by the bank from 6,000 miles away ? The UKBA or whoever makes these rules, is WAY behind modern reality, where everyone is encouraged to go 'paperless' and online. I don't get any paper statements at all, except the once-a-year building society summary of account type. Even those do not all arrive at the same time - some end of March, some end of April, so getting them together & synchronised to follow the 28-day rule is very difficult.

On your first point - "or print out the online one" - that wouldn't be acceptable would it, as you say in your second point ?

Is it actually possible to put in a good settlement (spouse) visa application from here in Thailand, or do most people find they have to go back to the UK to do it just because of the need to get fresh paperwork ?

Many thanks.

[7by7]

I can see, and sympathise, with your points; but I can also see UKVI's point of view as well.

The "28 day rule."
The decision maker needs as up to date information on the sponsor's finances as possible.

They obviously have to give both sponsor and applicant time to get all the required paperwork together, but to allow evidence that is too old means the sponsor's financial situation could have changed in the meantime.

Certified printouts/photocopies
Both printouts and photocopies can easily be altered, resulting in a fraudulent application (not that you would do such a thing, I'm sure). Hence the requirement to have them certified as correct by the issuer.

I have heard of uncertified printouts being accepted in visit applications, but not in settlement ones. Doesn't mean it never happens, though; even though doing so would be against the evidential requirements in the rules.

If the sponsor lives in the UK then obtaining documents, certified if necessary, before sending or taking them to the applicant for submission within the 28 days should be relatively simple.

Obviously, though, if the sponsor currently lives in Thailand obtaining such from UK institutions is more complicated.

But, unless you are relying on cash savings to meet the requirement and some or all of those savings are held in your building society account, do you really need statements from that account?

[crazydrummerpauly]

I can see, and sympathise, with your points; but I can also see UKVI's point of view as well.

The "28 day rule."

The decision maker needs as up to date information on the sponsor's finances as possible.

They obviously have to give both sponsor and applicant time to get all the required paperwork together, but to allow evidence that is too old means the sponsor's financial situation could have changed in the meantime.

Certified printouts/photocopies

Both printouts and photocopies can easily be altered, resulting in a fraudulent application (not that you would do such a thing, I'm sure). Hence the requirement to have them certified as correct by the issuer.

I have heard of uncertified printouts being accepted in visit applications, but not in settlement ones. Doesn't mean it never happens, though; even though doing so would be against the evidential requirements in the rules.

If the sponsor lives in the UK then obtaining documents, certified if necessary, before sending or taking them to the applicant for submission within the 28 days should be relatively simple.

Obviously, though, if the sponsor currently lives in Thailand obtaining such from UK institutions is more complicated.

But, unless you are relying on cash savings to meet the requirement and some or all of those savings are held in your building society account, do you really need statements from that account?

All points understood and agreed. I imagine one would have to be pretty skilled to fake something like my Barclays print-outs to perfection, and no i would never do it! And yes, relying on cash savings held in more than one building society for a long time. We'll see, i'm still hoping i won't have to add even more cost to the process by going back to Blighty merely to get some statements stamped or updated. By the way - my original point about some people getting settlement visas with very out-of-date documents has been updated - assertions like this : "My mortgage statement was a year old, not had this years yet, they only come annually from my mortgage company. My employers letter was undated. Council tax statement was also last years.", and: " From my side, yes got with mortgage statement from December as I get them every qtr, and I had a letter from work dated November. I had recent utility bills so included them but my council tax bill was a full year from months ago so that wasn't dated within 30 days for sure. Pay slips and bank statements should be right up to date though. I included my original work contract so wouldn't be recent but didn't do any harm.." - are from successful sponsors for spouse visas that have just got them with what we might call very out-of-date documents. Maybe there is some leniency about mortgage and council tax docs, as long as bank statements and wage-slips (i.e. proofs of Income) are up to date. Obviously everyone should do their best to get all docs as recent as possible to be on the safe side.

Edited March 31, 2016 by crazydrummerpauly

[rasg]

My mortgage statements come once a year. I submitted last years council tax statement with no problems. Water utility bill from last year too.

Ironically because I am self employed and my last full set of accounts ran from April 2014 to April 2015 the bank statements we submitted were between 10 months and 22 months old.

Edited March 31, 2016 by rasg

[7by7]

One of the absurdities of the requirement is that outgoings are completely ignored.

So whilst bank statements, pay slips etc. need to be recent, things like mortgage statements, council tax bills, utility bills etc., if you decide to include them, do not.

Although if self employed they want evidence of your income for the last full financial year: which if applying in March could be 11 months old!*

Consistent it aint!

* Typed before seeing rasg's post above.

Edited March 31, 2016 by 7by7

[crazydrummerpauly]

One of the absurdities of the requirement is that outgoings are completely ignored.

So whilst bank statements, pay slips etc. need to be recent, things like mortgage statements, council tax bills, utility bills etc., if you decide to include them, do not.

Although if self employed they want evidence of your income for the last full financial year: which if applying in March could be 11 months old!*

Consistent it aint!

* Typed before seeing rasg's post above.

Good point 7x7 - income vs outgoings i mean. I know all about that in the general context of the lack of means-testing in the 2012 financial requirement, but i hadn't connected the dots to the issue of dating evidential documents - cheers.

[rasg]

3.3.4. Bank statements must be on official bank stationery. Alternatively, electronic bank statements can also be accepted for all bank accounts (the account itself does not have to be exclusively online) as long as they are either accompanied by a letter from the bank on its headed stationery confirming that the documents are authentic or which bear the official stamp of the issuing bank on every page.

Official bank stationery is also a bit ambiguous too. My online statements have the Santander header and logo and account details on each page. Presumably that means they are official bank stationary? I went to my nearest Santander and they stamped the first page of each one and that worked for me. Whether the stamps were needed or not I don't know because they were on official bank stationery!

[crazydrummerpauly]

3.3.4. Bank statements must be on official bank stationery. Alternatively, electronic bank statements can also be accepted for all bank accounts (the account itself does not have to be exclusively online) as long as they are either accompanied by a letter from the bank on its headed stationery confirming that the documents are authentic or which bear the official stamp of the issuing bank on every page.

Official bank stationery is also a bit ambiguous too. My online statements have the Santander header and logo and account details on each page. Presumably that means they are official bank stationary? I went to my nearest Santander and they stamped the first page of each one and that worked for me. Whether the stamps were needed or not I don't know because they were on official bank stationery!

Thanks for that. As someone trying hard to NOT fly back to the UK just to do this type of red tape, the whole topic of acceptable documents is a pain in the backside. I think the whole hassle is contained in those three little words : 'AS LONG AS' etc... 'Official bank stationary' i think means the old fashioned kind of paper statements we all used to get in the post. What you did in Santander works fine - i did that for visitor visas in 2014 and 2015. At the moment, my plan is to call a number and a name i got from Barclays when i called then in the UK last year, and hope - HOPE! - they can send me their own 'official' statements by post to Thailand. Worst case scenario - the bloke i spent ages talking to on the phone in England has left Barclays ! On the up-side, i'm encouraged by guys reporting that they had some docs way outside of the 28-day rule and still got the visa. But only certain kinds, such as mortgage statements, council tax bills, and self-employment accounts for the previous tax year. Onwards and slightly to the left :-)

[7by7]

<snip>

On the up-side, i'm encouraged by guys reporting that they had some docs way outside of the 28-day rule and still got the visa. But only certain kinds, such as mortgage statements, council tax bills, and self-employment accounts for the previous tax year. Onwards and slightly to the left :-)

Remember that the specific age of documents and periods they cover only applies to evidence of meeting the financial requirement.

Mortgage statements, council tax bills, utility bills are not required for this.

Indeed, they are not required at all!

Although a mortgage statement may be useful as evidence that the sponsor owns the property and therefore the applicant is able to move in with them.

[rasg]

Although a mortgage statement may be useful as evidence that the sponsor owns the property and therefore the applicant is able to move in with them.

I relied on my mortgage statement and an old council tax bill to prove ownership of my property along with a photo of the outside that doesn’t prove anything at all. Both were free. The council tax bill showed the 25% discount as a sole occupier of the house and mine is the only name on the mortgage statement.

Many people pay money for land registry documents etc that they probably don't need. Maybe not a lot of money but it all adds up along with translating unnecessary things.

[crazydrummerpauly]

The Land Registry site charged me £3 to download a copy of my friend's property (offered a room in). He also happens to be a mortgage advisor and has arranged several re-mortgages for me in the past. What surprised me was that with the download of the deeds, there is the history of 'Charges' against property, the last one being to Barclays Bank in 2014. That tells me something i didn't know - that he re-mortgaged his house in 2014 through Barclays. The reason it surprises me is that i don't think that information should be available to any Tom, Dick or Harry who can register with the Land Registry website, put in any address, and get the history of mortgages (charges) against that property. Maybe i'm old-school, but i think that shouldn't be a publicly available piece of data about anyone's financial affairs.

Good point about the precise dating of documents being mainly related to those needed to meet the Financial Requirement 7x7. Makes sense.