Thailand's 'F' word: Offensive or harmless?

[dick dasterdly]

It is interesting to see how in this debate that those who have reservations about the word are generally polite in their arguments .On the other hand those who believe the word is OK (with a few exceptions) are very often offensive.

SB - 'I would rather they revel in their ignorance than educate them'.

Berkshire = uses 'deluded Farangs' amongst numerous other insults

Gecko123 - 'these morons'

Whether or not the word is offensive or not in derivation it clearly is disliked by a significant number (possibly around the 50% mark) of Westerners. Surely this should be a good enough reason alone for other Westerners and Thai alike (if they are aware of this) to avoid using it especially as it is as unnecessary as the word 'n....r'. Growing up in London 40 years ago this word, amongst others like 'd..o' and 'w..p' were used so frequently by Uk citizens who were quite frankly racist (including my parents). Credit to the UK for pretty well consigning these terms to the history books.

Off topic obviously, but I can still remember an Irish guy (back in England) who for some obscure reason decided to tirade me with his view on foreigners....

Mind you, my mum (who was a foreigner but had been living in England for 25 years or so) also one time said 'bloody foreigners' when someone annoyed her in the car .

Funny obviously - although not so much when confronted with the Irish man who thought I would be sympathetic to his views because we lived in the same road....

Edited April 15, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[Kenny202]

I dunno. I feel I get treated well here and mostly receive high status simply because I'm from the west. It embarrasses me sometimes particularly when some some old guy who has worked in a rice field all day to support his family is wai ing me. I genuinely respect him and he's earnt it. I havent. I'd have to say Asians, and Thais in particular are treated with extremely low status and derision back in Australia. Most people back home have a Thai woman summed up on sight as a hooker.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Kenny202

[SoiBiker]

It is interesting to see how in this debate that those who have reservations about the word are generally polite in their arguments .On the other hand those who believe the word is OK (with a few exceptions) are very often offensive.

SB - 'I would rather they revel in their ignorance than educate them'.

Berkshire = uses 'deluded Farangs' amongst numerous other insults

Gecko123 - 'these morons'

Whether or not the word is offensive or not in derivation it clearly is disliked by a significant number (possibly around the 50% mark) of Westerners. Surely this should be a good enough reason alone for other Westerners and Thai alike (if they are aware of this) to avoid using it especially as it is as unnecessary as the word 'n....r'. Growing up in London 40 years ago this word, amongst others like 'd..o' and 'w..p' were used so frequently by Uk citizens who were quite frankly racist (including my parents). Credit to the UK for pretty well consigning these terms to the history books.

It's interesting that you feel the need to both attribute entirely inaccurate quotes to people and make up spurious statistics in order to support your argument. Both these actions somewhat undermine your bid for the moral high-ground. Edited April 15, 2016 by SoiBiker

[rgs2001uk]

What a silly discussion. The use of the word Farang is not open to debate as far translation or word definition, or who speaks Thai better than another. You can't apply Western values and ideas to an Asian culture. Thailand is an extremely racist society, mainly to their own people. They detest blacks of any race, and anyone of colour or lower status in their own country. I still don't believe farang is generally a term of derision. In some contexts it could be.

If you guys don't know if the word is derisive or not...ask ur missus or a Thai person you trust. My missus says it's not used derogatively. Good enough for me

I agree with the first para - its only rarely used as an expression of derision.

My POV though is that it carries a certain (small ) element of 'inferior' status - otherwise why use the expression when they know our name?

Typically when I hear 'farang' being bandied about at the market - its a discussion as to how much more they should charge me....

Typically when I go to the market the prices are openly on display, whether it be fruit, vegetables. meat etc etc

How do you know they aint saying, farang lor maa laew?

[dick dasterdly]

It is interesting to see how in this debate that those who have reservations about the word are generally polite in their arguments .On the other hand those who believe the word is OK (with a few exceptions) are very often offensive.

SB - 'I would rather they revel in their ignorance than educate them'.

Berkshire = uses 'deluded Farangs' amongst numerous other insults

Gecko123 - 'these morons'

Whether or not the word is offensive or not in derivation it clearly is disliked by a significant number (possibly around the 50% mark) of Westerners. Surely this should be a good enough reason alone for other Westerners and Thai alike (if they are aware of this) to avoid using it especially as it is as unnecessary as the word 'n....r'. Growing up in London 40 years ago this word, amongst others like 'd..o' and 'w..p' were used so frequently by Uk citizens who were quite frankly racist (including my parents). Credit to the UK for pretty well consigning these terms to the history books.

It's interesting that you feel the need to both attribute entirely inaccurate quotes to people and make up spurious statistics in order to support your argument. Both these actions somewhat undermine your bid for the moral high-ground.

There is no 'moral high ground' - either we have reason to dislike the term, or we do not.

[SoiBiker]

It is interesting to see how in this debate that those who have reservations about the word are generally polite in their arguments .On the other hand those who believe the word is OK (with a few exceptions) are very often offensive.

SB - 'I would rather they revel in their ignorance than educate them'.

Berkshire = uses 'deluded Farangs' amongst numerous other insults

Gecko123 - 'these morons'

Whether or not the word is offensive or not in derivation it clearly is disliked by a significant number (possibly around the 50% mark) of Westerners. Surely this should be a good enough reason alone for other Westerners and Thai alike (if they are aware of this) to avoid using it especially as it is as unnecessary as the word 'n....r'. Growing up in London 40 years ago this word, amongst others like 'd..o' and 'w..p' were used so frequently by Uk citizens who were quite frankly racist (including my parents). Credit to the UK for pretty well consigning these terms to the history books.

It's interesting that you feel the need to both attribute entirely inaccurate quotes to people and make up spurious statistics in order to support your argument. Both these actions somewhat undermine your bid for the moral high-ground.

There is no 'moral high ground' - either we have reason to dislike the term, or we do not.

You can dislike it all you want - but you can't rewrite the dictionary just because you don't like the way Thai people talk about you.

[dick dasterdly]

What a silly discussion. The use of the word Farang is not open to debate as far translation or word definition, or who speaks Thai better than another. You can't apply Western values and ideas to an Asian culture. Thailand is an extremely racist society, mainly to their own people. They detest blacks of any race, and anyone of colour or lower status in their own country. I still don't believe farang is generally a term of derision. In some contexts it could be.

If you guys don't know if the word is derisive or not...ask ur missus or a Thai person you trust. My missus says it's not used derogatively. Good enough for me

I agree with the first para - its only rarely used as an expression of derision.

My POV though is that it carries a certain (small ) element of 'inferior' status - otherwise why use the expression when they know our name?

Typically when I hear 'farang' being bandied about at the market - its a discussion as to how much more they should charge me....

Typically when I go to the market the prices are openly on display, whether it be fruit, vegetables. meat etc etc

How do you know they aint saying, farang lor maa laew?

The prices here are rarely displayed - or at least weren't before I gave up going to markets preferring Makro or anywhere else where the prices were displayed.

Sorry, I don't understand the Thai phrase you posted, but gave up markets when the price charged one time was way over what it should have been - after a lot of 'farang' banter... Stupidly I paid.

On the other hand, I used to buy a lot of beef (for the dogs) from a different market and heard the other stall holders shouting 'farang' at her all the time... To her credit she always charged me the same price as the Thais. I know this because I saw Thais buying the same beef for the same price.

[villagefarang]

According to this Poll on ThaiVisa some years back 84 % of respondents did not find the term "Farang" offensive.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/542011-does-it-bother-you-to-be-called-a-farang/

Edited April 15, 2016 by villagefarang

[dick dasterdly]

It is interesting to see how in this debate that those who have reservations about the word are generally polite in their arguments .On the other hand those who believe the word is OK (with a few exceptions) are very often offensive.

SB - 'I would rather they revel in their ignorance than educate them'.

Berkshire = uses 'deluded Farangs' amongst numerous other insults

Gecko123 - 'these morons'

Whether or not the word is offensive or not in derivation it clearly is disliked by a significant number (possibly around the 50% mark) of Westerners. Surely this should be a good enough reason alone for other Westerners and Thai alike (if they are aware of this) to avoid using it especially as it is as unnecessary as the word 'n....r'. Growing up in London 40 years ago this word, amongst others like 'd..o' and 'w..p' were used so frequently by Uk citizens who were quite frankly racist (including my parents). Credit to the UK for pretty well consigning these terms to the history books.

It's interesting that you feel the need to both attribute entirely inaccurate quotes to people and make up spurious statistics in order to support your argument. Both these actions somewhat undermine your bid for the moral high-ground.

There is no 'moral high ground' - either we have reason to dislike the term, or we do not.

You can dislike it all you want - but you can't rewrite the dictionary just because you don't like the way Thai people talk about you.

I agree, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the term 'farang' has slightly negative connotations.

[BritManToo]

15 pages and counting ........

Good point - this has been done to death many times.

Those thinking 'farang' doesn't have any slightly negative connotations are not about to change their mind - and neither are those who believe differently.

It's hard to change a racist's POV, probably impossible.

[BritManToo]

Typically when I go to the market the prices are openly on display, whether it be fruit, vegetables. meat etc etc

Prices marked on not often depends on the market owner.

For example,

at the Buffalo market in San Patong on a Saturday, second hand m/cs are all unpriced.

at the MeeChok Plaza market Chiang Mai on the 1001 on Sundays second hand m/cs are all priced.

It's the same dealers at both markets, but MeeChok insist everything has a price clearly marked.

[baneko]

I know many words much worse than farang used by Thais...They are sometimes used in jest but as a farang i never use them. Farang does not worry me at all.....

[Kenny202]

What a silly discussion. The use of the word Farang is not open to debate as far translation or word definition, or who speaks Thai better than another. You can't apply Western values and ideas to an Asian culture. Thailand is an extremely racist society, mainly to their own people. They detest blacks of any race, and anyone of colour or lower status in their own country. I still don't believe farang is generally a term of derision. In some contexts it could be.

If you guys don't know if the word is derisive or not...ask ur missus or a Thai person you trust. My missus says it's not used derogatively. Good enough for me

I agree with the first para - its only rarely used as an expression of derision.

My POV though is that it carries a certain (small ) element of 'inferior' status - otherwise why use the expression when they know our name?

Typically when I hear 'farang' being bandied about at the market - its a discussion as to how much more they should charge me....

Typically when I go to the market the prices are openly on display, whether it be fruit, vegetables. meat etc etc

How do you know they aint saying, farang lor maa laew?

The prices here are rarely displayed - or at least weren't before I gave up going to markets preferring Makro or anywhere else where the prices were displayed.

Sorry, I don't understand the Thai phrase you posted, but gave up markets when the price charged one time was way over what it should have been - after a lot of 'farang' banter... Stupidly I paid.

On the other hand, I used to buy a lot of beef (for the dogs) from a different market and heard the other stall holders shouting 'farang' at her all the time... To her credit she always charged me the same price as the Thais. I know this because I saw Thais buying the same beef for the same price.

I get that at our markets too....but people like that are in the minority. They try it on with my missus too. I only buy from people I trust or wen the price is shown. Edited April 15, 2016 by Kenny202

[rgs2001uk]

Typically when I go to the market the prices are openly on display, whether it be fruit, vegetables. meat etc etc

Prices marked on not often depends on the market owner.

For example,

at the Buffalo market in San Patong on a Saturday, second hand m/cs are all unpriced.

at the MeeChok Plaza market Chiang Mai on the 1001 on Sundays second hand m/cs are all priced.

It's the same dealers at both markets, but MeeChok insist everything has a price clearly marked.

Well here in my part of Bkk, its the local ket that have said prices must be on display, its up to the market owner to make sure the stall holders have the prices on display, and yes the local officials can be seen regularly visitng these markets.

The answer is simple, if no price on display, ask the price or move on elsewhere.

This is nothing to do with anti tourist or farangs or any other adjective you care to use, they try it on with locals as well.

[dick dasterdly]

I'm sure you're right that market sellers charging a high price for 'farangs' are in the minority - but that not stopped me refusing to use the local markets.

Unfortunate, as I'd always prefer to give my money to a small trader than a big supermarket. Nowadays I buy anything I can from the 'mom and pop' shops (where prices are labeled), whilst buying food and veg from the supermarkets. The few that thought 'farangs' should be charged a higher price have lost my business for all of them.

Obviously unimportant in the global scheme of things, but its still money lost that I used to spend in the markets.

Edited April 15, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[Kenny202]

Getting off topic but it is a market and that usually means get the best price u can. I asked an old boy this morning how much for his honey. He told me clearly three times 50 baht. Handed him the money and then tried to tell me 150 baht. I shook my head and said pang, mi. He wouldn't give the money back then tried a different tack to sell me 2 bottles for 150. A young girl saw what was happening came and yanked the money out of his hand and gave it to me. First time anything like that's happened. Even so I'm sure it wasn't due to a dislike of farang. Old bstd thought he saw an easy oportunity

[rogeroc]

According to this Poll on ThaiVisa some years back 84 % of respondents did not find the term "Farang" offensive.

Thanks for the info but the question on the poll is whether or not you would be offended by being called a 'Farang' as opposed to 'do you think Farang is an offensive word'.

[dick dasterdly]

Getting off topic but it is a market and that usually means get the best price u can. I asked an old boy this morning how much for his honey. He told me clearly three times 50 baht. Handed him the money and then tried to tell me 150 baht. I shook my head and said pang, mi. He wouldn't give the money back then tried a different tack to sell me 2 bottles for 150. A young girl saw what was happening came and yanked the money out of his hand and gave it to me. First time anything like that's happened. Even so I'm sure it wasn't due to a dislike of farang. Old bstd thought he saw an easy oportunity

I've experienced the same thing. But more fool us for paying too much in the first place I suppose.

The few who say "no!" brighten our day and re-affirm our belief that not everyone is out to screw us.

[SoiBiker]

According to this Poll on ThaiVisa some years back 84 % of respondents did not find the term "Farang" offensive.

Thanks for the info but the question on the poll is whether or not you would be offended by being called a 'Farang' as opposed to 'do you think Farang is an offensive word'.

You're clutching at straws a bit there.

Personally, I've never spoken to anybody in real life who has a problem with the word. Most expats I know use it themselves. It seems to be a Thaivisa thing.

[BritManToo]

Personally, I've never spoken to anybody in real life who has a problem with the word. Most expats I know use it themselves. It seems to be a Thaivisa thing.

When a white guy starts talking 'farang' in front of me, I tell him I find it offensive and ask him to stop.

It's only on ThaiVisa that posters are so rude as to keep on, despite them knowing I find it offensive.

Of course, I don't associate with those whom I consider to be impolite in real life.

Rude people, don't want them, don't need them.

Edited April 15, 2016 by BritManToo

[Bantex]

Each morning my Thai wife always says "good morning Felang" to me purely as a joke. Every one in her extended family always refers to me by my name. Some of the local villagers, who don't know my name will say hello Felang to which I normally reply hello Thai. No one especially me has ever been offended.

[GarryP]

Having lived here most of my life,I speak fluent Thai.

Ever noticed how they never say khon fArang? They day khon jeen or khon yeepoon etc but always say farang mun when talking about a group of foreigners.

Ask a Thai who you can trust. ALL Thais say this, for example farang mun chawp ap daet. Foreigners IT likes Sun bathing.

If you don't believe this up to you. I have lived here 30 years btw.Thais racism is heard through their language. Many times I've heard things when they thought I couldn't hear or understand.

"Man" is not automatically a derogatory term. In fact, the first (meaning the most common) definition of this word is the personal pronoun "it, they, them", depending on the context, with no derogatory meaning whatsoever. In the above sentence, the correct translation would be "Foreigners, they like to sunbathe." There is absolutely nothing derogatory about the use of "man" (มัน) in this sentence.

The second usage of this term is derogatory. Whether the use of 'man' is intended to be derogatory or not would depend on the context of the sentence. Obviously, a benign factual statement about foreigners enjoying sunbathing would be translated as "they" like sunbathing, not "it" likes sunbathing.

See attached entry from Mary Haas Thai-English Student's Dictionary for reference:

DSCN7317.JPG

I agree with you 100 percent Gecko. Don't you just love these "fluent" members. Their very posts show me they are fluent only in their own minds.

My son was laughing at some of the responses on here. He is Thai by birth, and as a luk kreung has seen and heard things from both sides of the tracks. Actually, he had some quite strong words for those who believe "farang" is offensive, basically being along the lines of being ignorant and probably not having any true understanding of the language or the culture. As to the use of "mun" being derogatory, he expressed disbelief that someone claiming fluency could be so ignorant.

[SoiBiker]

Personally, I've never spoken to anybody in real life who has a problem with the word. Most expats I know use it themselves. It seems to be a Thaivisa thing.

When a white guy starts talking 'farang' in front of me, I tell him I find it offensive and ask him to stop.

It's only on ThaiVisa that posters are so rude as to keep on, despite them knowing I find it offensive.

Of course, I don't associate with those whom I consider to be impolite in real life.

Rude people, don't want them, don't need them.

If you asked me to stop using the word because it offended you, I'd probably laugh so hard I'd spill my beer.

[BritManToo]

Personally, I've never spoken to anybody in real life who has a problem with the word. Most expats I know use it themselves. It seems to be a Thaivisa thing.

When a white guy starts talking 'farang' in front of me, I tell him I find it offensive and ask him to stop.

It's only on ThaiVisa that posters are so rude as to keep on, despite them knowing I find it offensive.

Of course, I don't associate with those whom I consider to be impolite in real life.

Rude people, don't want them, don't need them.

If you asked me to stop using the word because it offended you, I'd probably laugh so hard I'd spill my beer.

Easy to say from behind your keyboard.

[SoiBiker]

Personally, I've never spoken to anybody in real life who has a problem with the word. Most expats I know use it themselves. It seems to be a Thaivisa thing.

When a white guy starts talking 'farang' in front of me, I tell him I find it offensive and ask him to stop.

It's only on ThaiVisa that posters are so rude as to keep on, despite them knowing I find it offensive.

Of course, I don't associate with those whom I consider to be impolite in real life.

Rude people, don't want them, don't need them.

If you asked me to stop using the word because it offended you, I'd probably laugh so hard I'd spill my beer.

Easy to say from behind your keyboard.

So during one of your holidays here, you'd take upon yourself to get all self-righteous and tell other foreigners not to use a Thai word because it offends you?

That's so funny I'd probably buy you a beer to thank you for the laugh.

[Kenny202]

I just asked my missus what she'd like to watch on TV. She said she feels like watching a farang movie. Should I be offended?

[BritManToo]

I just asked my missus what she'd like to watch on TV. She said she feels like watching a farang movie. Should I be offended?

Try

Black Book, good WW2 movie in Dutch.

Amerlie, strange romance movie in French.

see what she thinks.

Edited April 15, 2016 by BritManToo

[rgs2001uk]

Having lived here most of my life,I speak fluent Thai.

Ever noticed how they never say khon fArang? They day khon jeen or khon yeepoon etc but always say farang mun when talking about a group of foreigners.

Ask a Thai who you can trust. ALL Thais say this, for example farang mun chawp ap daet. Foreigners IT likes Sun bathing.

If you don't believe this up to you. I have lived here 30 years btw.Thais racism is heard through their language. Many times I've heard things when they thought I couldn't hear or understand.

"Man" is not automatically a derogatory term. In fact, the first (meaning the most common) definition of this word is the personal pronoun "it, they, them", depending on the context, with no derogatory meaning whatsoever. In the above sentence, the correct translation would be "Foreigners, they like to sunbathe." There is absolutely nothing derogatory about the use of "man" (มัน) in this sentence.

The second usage of this term is derogatory. Whether the use of 'man' is intended to be derogatory or not would depend on the context of the sentence. Obviously, a benign factual statement about foreigners enjoying sunbathing would be translated as "they" like sunbathing, not "it" likes sunbathing.

See attached entry from Mary Haas Thai-English Student's Dictionary for reference:

DSCN7317.JPG

I agree with you 100 percent Gecko. Don't you just love these "fluent" members. Their very posts show me they are fluent only in their own minds.

My son was laughing at some of the responses on here. He is Thai by birth, and as a luk kreung has seen and heard things from both sides of the tracks. Actually, he had some quite strong words for those who believe "farang" is offensive, basically being along the lines of being ignorant and probably not having any true understanding of the language or the culture. As to the use of "mun" being derogatory, he expressed disbelief that someone claiming fluency could be so ignorant.

I to this day have no time for this song, but the more I live here the more relevant to Thailand it becomes,

Its in your head, jeez one poster is hearing imaginary voices in his head, then he worries about the voices he cant even here, its unvelievable.

I am the first to hold my hand up and say, I am nowhere fluent, there are whole swathes of the language I have never learned and see no point in doing so.

Religious terminolgy, engineering, medical, or legal just spring to mind.

As for, man, yes, those girls at Tesco look really offended when I ask for man farang song lo.

Mind you the TEFLr type behind me said I shouldnt use such language.

You really couldnt make this up.

One on here, couldnt translate a simple sentence, but claims to know the nuances of the language, its in his head, must have met the same TEFLr who filled his head with rubbish, no doubt read on here.

[rgs2001uk]

Personally, I've never spoken to anybody in real life who has a problem with the word. Most expats I know use it themselves. It seems to be a Thaivisa thing.

When a white guy starts talking 'farang' in front of me, I tell him I find it offensive and ask him to stop.

It's only on ThaiVisa that posters are so rude as to keep on, despite them knowing I find it offensive.

Of course, I don't associate with those whom I consider to be impolite in real life.

Rude people, don't want them, don't need them.

More than welcome to come up my way and tell me, I trust you wont be offended when I order a taxi for the farang.

[Kenny202]

I just asked my missus what she'd like to watch on TV. She said she feels like watching a farang movie. Should I be offended?

Try

Black Book, good WW2 movie in Dutch.

Amerlie, strange romance movie in French.

see what she thinks.

I think you mean Amelie :-) Excellent movie. "No understand. Like action"