Asian women and feminism

[mixed]

I was reading this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/103752-militant-feminism-or-simply-a-strong-woman/ and wanted to post but it's been archived.

Almost ten years have passed since that thread, now there's a strong chance that the US will have a president who identifies as a feminist, so I thought it would be worth bringing up the discussion again. Clinton sees identifying as a feminist as a vote winner, even though many feel another candidate would do more for women/equality. Which is interesting and makes me wonder if feminism has in some ways become a fashion statement for middle class white people (incl men), sometimes at the expense of women in developing countries.

This is a good story about H&M using cheap Cambodian garment workers (90% female) to make shirts with Feminist slogans http://jezebel.com/h-ms-cambodian-garment-workers-are-only-asking-for-177-1748477514

In the UK several male politicians wore 'This is What Feminist Looks Like' tees, David Cameron refused, which was controversial until it was revealed the tees were made by women earning 62p an hour. The shirts were sold through the fashion magazine Elle.

Some prominent feminists have made generalizing hateful statements about men for a long time, which in some ways is understandable, but also alienates men whose self esteem may not be great (but this doesn't mean they're misongynists).

Several are now being accused of hate speech due comments about transgender people. A prominent Swedish Feminist writer recently referred to Thai women as 'cheap pussy' and 'fresh meat'.

Scroll below for the response from Empower Thailand to her comments. Empower has been working with female sex workers since 1985, with much of their work on HIV prevention. https://www.facebook.com/Empower-today-695156470618537/?fref=nf

Today there is quite push to identify as feminist, I've been criticized for not doing so. Personally I feel feminism has become everything and nothing - normally empowering, but sometimes a fashion statement, sometimes hate speech. For these reasons it's something I'm reluctant to identify as.The concerns seem to receive little discussion, except when used by reactionaries to get women back in the kitchen, which is why I've bought them up here.

[lostinisaan]

Should I do the full OP now, or not?

[mixed]

Please do

[Boo]

Feminism is not a dirty word. Feminism means equal rights & the freedom to chose what happens in their own lives.

Women who "don't identify" with being a feminist don't know what the word means.

.

[mixed]

Do you think that about all women? That's a bit dismissive, condescending even.

[Sheryl]

I think the issue is, who gets to define what the word means?

Do people who oppose equal rights for women get to decide it means man-hating? (as it is usually such people who make that assertion). Or do the people who identify with the term get to decide what it does and doesn't connotate?

It is of course a Western term, in the English language. I don't think there is an equivalent term in Thai nor in most other Asian languages.

[mixed]

That's an interesting question, the definition of words seems to change quickly these days, in line with everything else.

There have been feminists who identify as man hating, but only handful compared to many, many more who care equally for ppl of both genders and just want fairness.

People who label women as ignorant for not identifying as feminists need to rethink, especially when the term is being used by rich politicians, celebrities and fashion labels to increase profits and further their careers.

[Boo]

Why would celebrity and politicians using feminism to further their agenda stop anyone from identifying with being a feminist and wanting equal rights for women.

I am dismissive of women who don't "identify" as a feminist. It makes no difference what other people use the term for, its meaning is clear. You either want equal rights or you don't.

[mixed]

I believe in equality, especially income equality and improving the rights and lives of the most marginalized in developing countries

But I'm not a feminist, due the concerns in the OP, particularly the exploitation of garment workers and comments about Thai women.

You can dismiss me if you like, along the concerns I've raised.

I do however think that dismissing women and their concerns has long been the realm of misogynists.

[Boo]

I believe in equality, especially income equality and improving the rights and lives of the most marginalized in developing countries

Then you're a feminist. Whether you identify as one or not.

[mixed]

No I'm not, please don't label me. Equality stands for many things outside of gender. I find if offensive when Hillary Clinton says she is a feminist because it stands for equality. She must be a billionaire almost?

There are also the other points I've raised and the way the excesses of feminists are ignored that prevent me labeling.

[Boo]

So rich women are not allowed to be feminists? What about rich men? lol

I don't really understand your logic as it seems to be mixed up in what other people do with a word. Why does it matter.?

That some women hate men & are feminists, some women who "don't identify" as feminist hate men also. Many men hate women & many don't, do I let the ones who are negative affect my view of all men? No I don't. I use reason & logic to understand that other peoples views, agendas & belief's don't reflect on me & mine.

I personally don't care who uses the word for what agenda, it doesn't stop it's actual premise or meaning nor the fact that I support it.

[mixed]

Billionaires claiming to be for equality? You are joking? These are the ppl who have overseen a massive shift in weatlth to the top. Inequality levels are at their highest, thanks to Hillary and other politicians of her ilk.

[starky]

I believe in equality, especially income equality and improving the rights and lives of the most marginalized in developing countries

Then you're a feminist. Whether you identify as one or not.

What about a male who agrees with everything mixed has to say, is he a feminist too? Mixed is correct you can believe in and fight for what is right without someone forcing a label on you regardless of race, creed, religion or in this case gender.

[thai3]

People still describe themselves as feminists, really?, I thought the word had become so over used and discredited so much to have become almost meaningless.

[IMA_FARANG]

Ladies

First of all i am a male.

​I thought you might like this piece of History about Asian Women (Two sisters who became Queens and at least briefly lead there country over a thousand years ago).

There country was Vietnam, and in Vietnamese these two sisters are known as Hai Ba Trung.

hat is translated into English as The two Trung wives (The term Ba in Vietnamese being translated as wife, or married women)

These two women are regarded as heroes in Vietnam, as they led the first rebellion against the Chinese by Vietnamese.

Unfortunately I apparently can't cut and paste the test from Wikipedia to this post.

However you can find their story by going on the internet at www.yahoo.com and looking up the topic of "Hai Ba Trung".

There is a long article there about them.

In Vietnam, any city or town of decent size has a Hai Ba Trung street or square.

Unfortunately, mostly male historians have skipped this type of historical fact.....spreading the false myth that all history in Asia was make by males only.

[Tai777]

If you don't like feminism then Asia is the right place for you, most here haven't fallen for that mental illness, though there are a few in the new generation, maybe a few in the older ones.

[varun]

I believe the buzzword these days is the all encompassing SJW aka 'Social Justice Warrior'

Indeed, most Asian women haven't got caught up in the whole feminist propaganda, thank goodness.

[oxo1947]

I did see a bloke wearing one of those T-shirt that said, "This is what a feminist looks like"......last time I was home

Right enough, he had no tits and a bit of a moustache...............................

[zeichen]

As for the politically charged discussion about Hillary, WTFC. Regardless of her politics and how you feel about the woman, she has always been a supporter of gender equality and what is wrong with that. She is a powerful, strong leader who stands for what she believes in. I wish that I always did. I wish that I had 1/10 of the success or impact that she has had.

Those that believe women are treated equal and don't like labels such as feminism, should watch Laura Bates ted talk, Everyday Sexism. Or that video of the New York woman that recorded herself walking for a day. She was sexually harassed 100's of times in 8 hours. One guy even stalked her for 5 minutes.

As a man, I have a certain level of privilege that I can sometimes take for granted. But seeing her website and listening to her talk, it makes me sad to think that the world really isn't any better. Until gender roles and misogynistic viewpoints end (some women can be this way too) I worry about my daughters future. How often will she be sexually harassed, how tough does she need to be to endure, how many times will she be called man or manly when she is direct, effective or competent, how many times will she be called girly when she cries. Will she be called sassy when she is direct and straight forward, or will she be accepted by her piers regardless of gender.

those that are born into a privelege class typically view what life was like before and compare it with today. To show the progress of the discrimination. Those that are of the class being discriminated against look at what life is like today and sees what still needs to be done.

As far as I am concerned everyone should be a feminist, but unfortunately, not everyone believes in equality. Those that are born into the privilege system don't even see their own privilege and wouldn't give it up.

different countries in Asia are at different levels with gender roles and equality. Thai women that are engineers and doctors etc. still are expected to make the coffee when there is a conference or meeting with male colleagues. Those that do demand and fight their way to the top here aren't always in your face about it since they are still Thai and culturally tend to be more polite and non direct confrontational. China has a lot of extremely wealthy and successful women but still believe their role is to look pretty and take care of their family.

Culture puts a lot of pressure on people and takes decades and generations to overcome.

I do see the submissive subservient view westerners have of Asian women to be diminishing. There seems to be a lot more equal relationships here compared to the old stereotypes.

[Tai777]

Hillary is corrupt and a threat to the future of the United States. You're only looking at the fact that she's a woman and she's successful, but not what kind of person she actually is. Of course people don't support gender equality, why should they? You really think there should be no gender roles at all, with men and women completely the same in every aspect? This is why people are fleeing from repulsive western women and even looking for wives in Southeast Asia in the first place. Maybe if people didn't think like you then men wouldn't have to leave their home country just to find a woman that's not plagued with Marxist propaganda.

"Culture takes decades and generations to overcome" Another globalist who wants the whole world to be his Marxist fairytale and wants to diminish the culture of each sovereign nation in order to conform to his global, new age standard.

"Or that video of the New York woman that recorded herself walking for a day. She was sexually harassed 100's of times in 8 hours. One guy even stalked her for 5 minutes." She wasn't sexually harassed, she had men trying to make moves on her because she made herself look very attractive to them, and was wearing tight fitting clothing. Maybe if she was wearing a dress they wouldn't have whistled at her as much.

[Sakeopete]

I find it amusing and disheartening at the same time that there are multiple discussions on this sub forum discussing feminism and equal rights. I am certainly not a feminist honestly I don't really know what it means however I strongly believe in equal rights. As a father of daughters I try very hard to break gender bias and struggle myself to avoid it. I am always steering my daughters and wife (and son too) away from it. Luckily I work on a ship that has both men and women working in a traditionally male occupation I like the fact that we don't really take notice of the women as being women they are just coworkers (I also like that we have so many different races and religions who all get along wonderfully- sorry a bit off topic).

 

Having said that the very presence of this sub forum confuses me. Why do women who label themselves as feminists and fight for gender equality need a ladies sub forum. Wouldn't it be better that both men and women's issues  be discussed openly? How can we truly look at ourselves as equals when ladies sub forums  exist? All we need is people forums.

 

[Tai777]

People only want to oppress pretty women. For the masculine ones who work blue collar jobs, most men will readily accept them as an equal. The more young and beautiful the girl is, the more ready men are to oppress them. It's a simple mating strategy

[NickJ]

Let's just speculate. Write about it over and over again. 

Then speculate. Keep writing.

Speculate and throw ideas up in the air.

Talk about that.

Then hopefully realize. 

Don't mean a dark brown turdy. 

[Dale59]

How'd that Hillary thing work out for ya!


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