Militant Feminism Or Simply "a Strong Woman"?

[November Rain]

On a general topics thread yesterday I was called down for my "latent militant feminism" and "hostility". I didn't reply to that last comment, as my debate with the person concerned had already taken the thread off topic & I didn't want it to go any further.

However, it did rankle a bit because I don't consider myself a feminist at all. I agree with equality, but I'm lucky in that I virtually never have to consider my gender in how I am treated by others (in fact you're often treated more nicely as a woman!) or in my work or many aspects of my life. I've noticed a few times in various Thai forums that women who voice opinions can run the risk of being attacked by some men for their "feminist" views or called uncomplimentary names (this is the first time it's happened to me, though).

Please don't get me wrong, it's by no means all men who do this, most are really great. But why do this minority object to women who are strong and have their own opinions? I'm proud of being strong. I'm proud that I've coped with misfortunes in my life by coming through the other side, having learnt something. I'm proud of having my own opinions (be they right or wrong) and having made my own decisions & mistakes.

I'm not trying to start a men v women flamefest. I'd just like to hear other's take on this, even if the consensus is that I'm paranoid & need to tone down my abrasive attitude!

Thanks

[sbk]

On a general topics thread yesterday I was called down for my "latent militant feminism" and "hostility". I didn't reply to that last comment, as my debate with the person concerned had already taken the thread off topic & I didn't want it to go any further.

However, it did rankle a bit because I don't consider myself a feminist at all. I agree with equality, but I'm lucky in that I virtually never have to consider my gender in how I am treated by others (in fact you're often treated more nicely as a woman!) or in my work or many aspects of my life. I've noticed a few times in various Thai forums that women who voice opinions can run the risk of being attacked by some men for their "feminist" views or called uncomplimentary names (this is the first time it's happened to me, though).

Please don't get me wrong, it's by no means all men who do this, most are really great. But why do this minority object to women who are strong and have their own opinions? I'm proud of being strong. I'm proud that I've coped with misfortunes in my life by coming through the other side, having learnt something. I'm proud of having my own opinions (be they right or wrong) and having made my own decisions & mistakes.

I'm not trying to start a men v women flamefest. I'd just like to hear other's take on this, even if the consensus is that I'm paranoid & need to tone down my abrasive attitude!

Thanks

Not paranoid. Its just some insecure men who can only find their own masculinity in denigrating women. Seems prevalent amongst some expat men, but frankly I pay them no mind. It is 2007 now not 1957 and the fact that they can't keep up with the times only reflects their own problems and nothing to do with you.

[davidjtayler]

From a male point of view I totally agree with sbks comments above and really enjoy reading the female posts on TV forum .... its refreshing to get different and honest points of views from the opposite sex and if anyone has a problem with these views ... it is their problem (whethers its insecurity or another deep seated issue).

Keep up the good work Miss N R and all you ladies

[meme]

On a general topics thread yesterday I was called down for my "latent militant feminism" and "hostility". I didn't reply to that last comment, as my debate with the person concerned had already taken the thread off topic & I didn't want it to go any further.

However, it did rankle a bit because I don't consider myself a feminist at all. I agree with equality, but I'm lucky in that I virtually never have to consider my gender in how I am treated by others (in fact you're often treated more nicely as a woman!) or in my work or many aspects of my life. I've noticed a few times in various Thai forums that women who voice opinions can run the risk of being attacked by some men for their "feminist" views or called uncomplimentary names (this is the first time it's happened to me, though).

Please don't get me wrong, it's by no means all men who do this, most are really great. But why do this minority object to women who are strong and have their own opinions? I'm proud of being strong. I'm proud that I've coped with misfortunes in my life by coming through the other side, having learnt something. I'm proud of having my own opinions (be they right or wrong) and having made my own decisions & mistakes.

I'm not trying to start a men v women flamefest. I'd just like to hear other's take on this, even if the consensus is that I'm paranoid & need to tone down my abrasive attitude!

Thanks

NR,

I am going to try and keep this as short and sweet as possible.

I think it is very interesting that not only on TV but life in general how 1. Women take such offence to being called a feminist and 2. how men use it as the biggest insult. It is my oppinion that language can be a very powerful tool and to reclaim a word is the best way to diminish the power by the opposite party who is hurling the insult.

I am a feminist, loud and proud! Do I hate men?..No. Do I belive Men to be inferior?... NO. Do I belive in equality?..... yes. DO I have strong oppionions?...yes. Do I like to voice them?....absolutly. Do I have a short hair cut and wear flanel and throw darts and my man poster... No. My point is that I do not consider being a feminist to be a bad or militant thing. For me feminism means that I am pround of being a women, proud of having my own oppinions, and being independent. It also a way in which I view the world. I ask questions before I make an assumption. For example if there is someone poor and begging on the street, instead of calling them lazy I stop and think hmmm what has happened in this persons life to bring them to this point.

So I just think if more women embraced the term then people would become more educated about all that being a feminist actully means and it would then not be considered such an insult. Its this a massive task, yes, would it happen over night, no. But would it not be so much easier if someone said, "you are such a feminist" to just turn around and say, 'yes I am and ###### proud of it'.

This is just my oppinion I am not saying that we should now change this forum to 'feminists in Thailand'. Just my view on the subject. There are militant feminists out there but I am sure they do not make up the majority of Feminists in general. It is not black and white there is lots and lots of grey.

NR,

Do I think you are being abrasive and paranoid? No.

[MiG16]

november....Ive rated this topic a 5star

Im tempted to say dont pay too much attention to such remarks...and that would be my best advice. however I have to say that this is the way things are, seems like there isnt much we can do. i totally can empathise (since it happens to me quite often, short of being called a 'militant' though..but without saying the exact words...many would label me a feminist.... the funny thing is, like you, I dont see myself as one. if what i understand about the feminists are correct, they would not want men giving them special treatment, all about equal whatever. call me a hypocrite...but much as I appreciate being treated as an equal, being an equal does not necessarily have to mean doing exactly the same things. people have different skills they can specialise in, so its not about whether its the man or woman whos doing the cooking, the cleaning, or whos earning more. especially when it comes to physical difference between man and woman, its somewhat hilarious to see men that get pi**ed with women demanding rights, that go all small mind and say in that case women should help themselves in everything, including why would women seek help and support for violence against them. in general men are, and will be, still the more physically able (bigger, stronger etc), so why SHOULDNT they still help us? besides, I still like having my men lift heavy objects, opening jars and the such when its needed...

as said....equal rights is more about equal respect, and not literally whatever men do women has to as well....

the men that insist on that are just being sour grapes that women are asking to be treated fairly.

[meme]

november....Ive rated this topic a 5star

Im tempted to say dont pay too much attention to such remarks...and that would be my best advice. however I have to say that this is the way things are, seems like there isnt much we can do. i totally can empathise (since it happens to me quite often, short of being called a 'militant' though..but without saying the exact words...many would label me a feminist.... the funny thing is, like you, I dont see myself as one. if what i understand about the feminists are correct, they would not want men giving them special treatment, all about equal whatever. call me a hypocrite...but much as I appreciate being treated as an equal, being an equal does not necessarily have to mean doing exactly the same things. people have different skills they can specialise in, so its not about whether its the man or woman whos doing the cooking, the cleaning, or whos earning more. especially when it comes to physical difference between man and woman, its somewhat hilarious to see men that get pi**ed with women demanding rights, that go all small mind and say in that case women should help themselves in everything, including why would women seek help and support for violence against them. in general men are, and will be, still the more physically able (bigger, stronger etc), so why SHOULDNT they still help us? besides, I still like having my men lift heavy objects, opening jars and the such when its needed...

as said....equal rights is more about equal respect, and not literally whatever men do women has to as well....

the men that insist on that are just being sour grapes that women are asking to be treated fairly.

MiG,

I think you made a good point about bringing up the definition of equality. I think it is impossible for men and women to be equal as we are not the same and we will never be. So trying to make men and women the same is a bit like making apples and oranges the same. However as said It is about equal respect. Also while I am at it; another myth is that 'all' feminists expect that men and women should not hold sterotypical roles. However as an example, I would love the opportunity to stay home with the kids while the hubby works. But I want to have a say in it. I want it to be a mutual decision that is made on our terms, not according to what is dictated by sterotypes or social norms. Oh and I also like it when men hold doors open and carry the heavy stuff!!

[Boo]

Some guys will always have a problem being challenged by a women. It doesn't matter how old they are or where they come from, some just don't like it so will throw up the "militant feminist" card.

As meme said, being a feminist is no bad thing. I don't use the label myself but I view it, in it's proper context, as being a person, same as anyone else. i.e entitled to the same rights, expression of opinion & protection by the law, as any other human being, without fear & without expectation of attack or abuse.

This is what feminists in the past fought for but people like to have lables, so what I call being a human being someone else will call being a feminist & as I am a female human being, some men will lable me a militant feminist if I don't agree or defer to their opinion. It doesn't matter if I have never said "kill all men" or "I hate all men" just becuase I don't agree with them or have challenged them, I will be a militant

That is 100% their problem & there is nothing you or I can do about it or should even have to try. I am not in the business of re-educating ignorance, so I just ignore them & carry on with my life.

Those of us with men in our life who understand that women have opinions & aren't afraid of those opinions or women, know that the other kid of men are, thankfully the minority & not worth stressing over.

[MiG16]

to give example to support boo's point .... there's a guy who is kinda a friend....educated and even works in human rights...says he believes in equality and the such.....and goes on to say how he likes me for being so independent...sounds all good doesnt it? then one day im in his hometown (not my country), and go out to the supermarket...when i got back he was all upset that I hadnt asked which supermarket to go to so much for equality and being able to think for oneself

boo... i dont know if its unfortunate or fortunate...but I have at times been in the business of needing to re-educate well i rephrase...i cant educate them..so i say minimising the ignorance

[PhilHarries]

I have no problem with equality nor opinions whether from women or any other section of society. If a woman walked through the door with the same qualifications and equivalent experience (my job is largely experience) then she gets the same money end of discusion. If a woman wishes to express her opinions, however disagreeable they may be to me, then that is her right as it is my right to disagree. I've noticed a number of people on TV that seem to have a problem with differing opinions, that is their problem and they should deal with it not engage in pointless bickering.

I can vaguely recall the charge of "latent militant feminism" but cannot remember to what it was attached so it couldn't have been that serious but some folks are very sensitive and are in need of constant reassurance that all is OK and the bedroom closet monster won't get them tonight.

[November Rain]

Thanks for all the responses so far. The "feminist" label and what it means to us is interesting, isn't it? Until I read meme's post & subsequently MiG's & Boo's, I'd never thought of that word as anything but bad. It does, to me, have all the associations you mentioned, meme - a complete man-hater, who is over the top in her views & one-upmanship of men. The sort of woman that insists God is a woman. But, of course, when you analyse it, that's not true at all. Suffragettes weren't like that, they just wanted the same rights as men, not to take over from them. I wonder where I got the negative view of the word "feminist"? Media? Other women? Men? A combination? Really, I don't know, I just know I had it.

BTW, thanks for the 5 stars MiG. My first starred thread!!

[November Rain]

I can vaguely recall the charge of "latent militant feminism" but cannot remember to what it was attached so it couldn't have been that serious but some folks are very sensitive and are in need of constant reassurance that all is OK and the bedroom closet monster won't get them tonight.

Sorry, was that remark addressed to me or the other person I had the debate with? If me, you're right, it wasn't very serious, but I think that was possibly because I refused to get drawn any further, as our debate had already gone off topic.

[meme]

Thanks for all the responses so far. The "feminist" label and what it means to us is interesting, isn't it? Until I read meme's post & subsequently MiG's & Boo's, I'd never thought of that word as anything but bad. It does, to me, have all the associations you mentioned, meme - a complete man-hater, who is over the top in her views & one-upmanship of men. The sort of woman that insists God is a woman. But, of course, when you analyse it, that's not true at all. Suffragettes weren't like that, they just wanted the same rights as men, not to take over from them. I wonder where I got the negative view of the word "feminist"? Media? Other women? Men? A combination? Really, I don't know, I just know I had it.

Ah ha another one I can add. Challanging your assumptions as you just have NR with questioning why you have a negative view of the label, is also a part of what I believe to be feminism... Okay I will try and stop now with all my examples but you are right, it is very interesting to think about a word or label and analize why it has so many negatives and positives attached to it.

Edited January 29, 2007 by meme
fixed quote

[Sheryl]

Yes, it is interesting how the term "feminist" has been twisted around...and even more interesting that so many women have gone along with this re-definition.

If asked if I were a feminist (I never have been) I would just say, well, I'm a woman...do you expect that I'd support my own oppression? Of course I believe in women's rights.

The "militant feminist" term is an even more interesting study. Ask yourself...what would be the equivalent term with respect to racial equality? (Hint...there isn't one)....

Actually the term feminist is seldom used these days since in most of the enlightened world the principal of equal rights for women has been accepted, at least in theory. It's a throwback to the 1960's - 70's when that principal had not yet been widely accepted, and used to describe those who advocated that it should be.

There seems to be a cohort of expat men in Asia in the age group which saw the women's liberation movement happen (and remember what it was like before it happened) and are very disgruntled about it. Often cited as a major reason for moving to Thailand. And they are more than a little paranoid about the whole issue. As others have said...their problem.

[Jing-jo]

Hi November Rain

Having read alot of your posts with interest,and sometimes a bit of mirth,in the past and just scanned through a few at random to check my memory

IMHO I would not say you are a feminist per se but a Fiesty opinionated woman who can make people aware of their shortcomings ( this gets blokes backs up str8 away and usually the more vociferous the complaining at you the more guilty they are as charged!) where neccesary and maybe sometimes a little too strongly but that is a very common failing most of us have at one time or another but in my view a militant feminist would be like some of the more religous zealots that try to force and I mean force you to conform to they ways or beliefs wether you like it or not and this you are not guilty of , so to me you are not a militant feminist but a Human who holds strong views about a lot of very valid topics that just happens to be a woman and if thats a bad thing in the majorities eyes then heaven help the human race.

We as members of the "HUMAN RACE" should be helping each other out of jams and predicaments NOT putting them in them,because this is what humans should be doing to and for each other, though humans especially men typically those in power squander the two things that put us at the "TOP of the evolutionary tree" these are the ability to communcate and the ability to reason ,to me it seems that all the powers that be or think they are only intent on grabbing what they can for themselves or for the "good of the state or the faith", starting religous and political confrontations and destroying the planet we live on. humans are by nature a social yet aravicious species and the only time that there are squabbles be they minor or major is when greed or so called faith comes into it

as an aside I tried to find a term for the male version of feminism and found it strange that I couldn't

[too true]

When I went to Korea to teach 10 years ago I was on a subconscious mission to change the world, I think. I argued and debated with everyone who had a different idea. One of the biggest lessons I've learned from being in Thailand is to choose my battles. Old guys stuck in the 1950s are not going to change their opinions just because I force them to listen to a different opinion. I rarely even waste my breath on these guys. They're easy to spot and I just let whatever they say (or in the case of this forum, write) go in one ear and out the other. And any of the few times I have been wound up by what one of them has said, my husband just gives me a squeeze on the shoulder and a "chang mun teu" reminder.

About feminism, I think the meaning has evolved, and for the men who were men in the 1970s (adults in the 1970s, I mean), there must still be some residual anger they feel to all women who represent any of what the feminist period of the 70s stood for. I, as a woman who was born in the 70s, am certainly willing to agree that the feminist movement resulted in more family breakups and higher unemployment for men, but this is not the result of the movement. It must be the result of something that came before, that initiated the movement. It goes right back to the mothers of these women who were given the opportunity to embrace a new and empowering social status.

I have grown up having been taught by both my parents that I can be anything I want to be. And in my opinion and my definition of feminist, any woman who does what she wants to do with her life (while still respecting and honouring the other responsibilities she has voluntarily committed herself to), regardless of how other people choose to view her decision, is a feminist. A high powered lawyer working 60 hours a week is no more a feminist than a woman who chooses to stay home and look after her children, as long as both women have made a conscious and informed decision to take their particular paths. For me, feminism is about equality of opportunity, not equality of result.

ANyway, that's my 2 baht, for whatever it's worth...

Cheers,

TT

[MiG16]

as long as both women have made a conscious and informed decision to take their particular paths. For me, feminism is about equality of opportunity, not equality of result.

ANyway, that's my 2 baht, for whatever it's worth...

Cheers,

TT

very well put TT definitely worth those 2baht in gold at the very least mind you how expensive the gold baht is these days

all these views above for instance, are clear examples why i admire the ladies on this forum so much. i havent come across one person who doesnt have some amazing things / opinion to share on a number of crucial topics thank you ladies for maintaining the sanity balance...

[Little Black Duck]

On a general topics thread yesterday I was called down for my "latent militant feminism" and "hostility". I didn't reply to that last comment, as my debate with the person concerned had already taken the thread off topic & I didn't want it to go any further.

However, it did rankle a bit because I don't consider myself a feminist at all. I agree with equality, but I'm lucky in that I virtually never have to consider my gender in how I am treated by others (in fact you're often treated more nicely as a woman!) or in my work or many aspects of my life. I've noticed a few times in various Thai forums that women who voice opinions can run the risk of being attacked by some men for their "feminist" views or called uncomplimentary names (this is the first time it's happened to me, though).

Please don't get me wrong, it's by no means all men who do this, most are really great. But why do this minority object to women who are strong and have their own opinions? I'm proud of being strong. I'm proud that I've coped with misfortunes in my life by coming through the other side, having learnt something. I'm proud of having my own opinions (be they right or wrong) and having made my own decisions & mistakes.

I'm not trying to start a men v women flamefest. I'd just like to hear other's take on this, even if the consensus is that I'm paranoid & need to tone down my abrasive attitude!

Thanks

November Rain..I have come out of the shadows just to say to you thay you are certainly not a Militant Feminist..

You are a Strong Caring Woman as are most of the other good ladies on the TV ...

In my humble opinion there are a couple who let the side down but compared to the guys..

Just keep on being the Kind Caring person you are..Word cant hurt you if you dont let tham..LBD..

[PeaceBlondie]

My first and last daughters are feminists. My boys believe in equal rights. The first daughter got pregnant at 18, and convinced her boyfriend (Mexican-American) to stay home and take care of the kids (all 3 of them now, 22 years later) while she earned a BA and M.Ed. and taught school for 18 years now. She's read all the books (Friedman, an autographed copy by the most famous one who worked as a Playboy Bunny to get a story; Naomi Wolf, etc.), but she's not militant. She knows her stuff and does her work well.

Here's a clue that the writer is a hater of feminists: he'll accuse them of being bra burners. That's silly; women throughout history may have only burnt 3 bras in public. I remember the first time I lost my chance at a management job, and two Hispanic females beat me out. My lady friends assured me I was passed over because I was male!

Women have just as many rights as men have, to express strong opinions. On women's issues, they're more qualified to speak.

[phibunmike]

On a general topics thread yesterday I was called down for my "latent militant feminism" and "hostility". I didn't reply to that last comment, as my debate with the person concerned had already taken the thread off topic & I didn't want it to go any further.

However, it did rankle a bit because I don't consider myself a feminist at all. I agree with equality, but [...]

I think men often apply the label "feminist" incorrectly, when presented with a strong argument from a woman.

Now, I am not going to express an opinion of whether "feminism" is good or bad, other than to say that I support equality of opportunity (although my dictionary says that is all it is, my interpretation of the word involves something a little more pro-active - it is not my intention to get involved in that debate here).

However, I believe it is not possible to attach the label "feminist" to a woman unless the discussion in hand concerns gender. It is incorrect to use the term, as some men do, simply because the woman expresses her opnion vigorously and/or intelligently.

Cheers,

Mike

P.S. By the way NR, I recall reading that comment in the other thread, and dismissed it as a bit of nonsense

[November Rain]

Thanks for everyone's replies. Just like to assure everyone that I wasn't upset by the remark other than mild indignation (at first), followed by irritation that I had been labelled by someone who didn't know the first thing about me. It certainly didn't give me a sleepless night.

The discussion had gone onto gender issues (started by him) & that's why I didn't carry it on beyond a couple of replies, because that wasn't what the thread was about. It just got me thinking about times I'd seen other women attacked for their views on other forums (most of the women were making, IMHO, very good points).

It is interesting to see how most respondents seem to term "feminist" as a negative thing (as I did). I imagine, as Sheryl & others have stated the negative connotations came about in the 60's & 70's when the women's movement was most active & some men saw it as disruptive to "family values". This has turned into an interesting topic, thanks for everyone's input.

[Finansjohan]

The definition of "feminism" is rather unclear. In my home country, Sweden, "feminism" is typically advocated by activists that have adopted a model of thought from marxist ideology. Men are always oppressors in power and are doing what they can to keep their position. Women are always oppressed victims. Thus, pretty much any way for women to grab more power at the expense of men is a good one. Quotas where, say, women are guaranteed a 50% representation in politics or in the management of companies are being carried out in Sweden as a response to the successful lobbying of such feminists. Now, not all people who label themselves "feminists" here argue along these lines, but I would say that most do.

As a liberal minded person, I find these ideas bunk to say the least. Equal rights and treatment, of course! Government sponsored help for less represented groups, be they women, immigrants, left-handed or whatever, can be fine depending on the case. But it is simply discrimination to legislate so that some arbitrary group of people are given preferential treatment irrespective of some characteristic that should matter, such as competence.

Now, I am definitely anti-feminist in the marxist-idea sense but pro-feminism if it is in line with equal rights and opportunities. And since I am a dude, the marxist-feminists would argue that I am simply making this point to stay in "power", i.e. keep women "oppressed". Since I feel insulted by that type of generalisation and punch-below-the-belt type of arguments, I have come to view people who call themselves "feminists" with suspicion.

[November Rain]

The definition of "feminism" is rather unclear. In my home country, Sweden, "feminism" is typically advocated by activists that have adopted a model of thought from marxist ideology. Men are always oppressors in power and are doing what they can to keep their position. Women are always oppressed victims. Thus, pretty much any way for women to grab more power at the expense of men is a good one. Quotas where, say, women are guaranteed a 50% representation in politics or in the management of companies are being carried out in Sweden as a response to the successful lobbying of such feminists. Now, not all people who label themselves "feminists" here argue along these lines, but I would say that most do.

As a liberal minded person, I find these ideas bunk to say the least. Equal rights and treatment, of course! Government sponsored help for less represented groups, be they women, immigrants, left-handed or whatever, can be fine depending on the case. But it is simply discrimination to legislate so that some arbitrary group of people are given preferential treatment irrespective of some characteristic that should matter, such as competence.

Now, I am definitely anti-feminist in the marxist-idea sense but pro-feminism if it is in line with equal rights and opportunities. And since I am a dude, the marxist-feminists would argue that I am simply making this point to stay in "power", i.e. keep women "oppressed". Since I feel insulted by that type of generalisation and punch-below-the-belt type of arguments, I have come to view people who call themselves "feminists" with suspicion.

Very interesting post. I agree completely with the sentiments in your second paragraph. I think tremendous harm can be done to all if gender, race or disability are more important criteria than ability to do a job, or need for housing, or whatever the case may be. Also, I can see how you would feel insulted by being pigeonholed or generalised about. That's how I felt, albeit by a different generalisation.

Your first point is pretty much how I thought of feminists. As I do not view men as oppressors & certainly don't view myself as oppressed or a victim, I would not have "labelled" myself in that way. I think the primary point that has come out in this thread is interpretation of the word "feminist". It simply means "advocate of women's rights for equality of the sexes", which is quite benign & I think most women these days would be comfortable with saying they believed in equal rights for all. I do. So, how did we get so hung up on the idea of it meaning far more than that?

[phibunmike]

I think the primary point that has come out in this thread is interpretation of the word "feminist". It simply means "advocate of women's rights for equality of the sexes", which is quite benign & I think most women these days would be comfortable with saying they believed in equal rights for all. I do. So, how did we get so hung up on the idea of it meaning far more than that?

Perhaps because the word used is "feminist" and not "non-genderist"?

Or perhaps because of the often-used interpretation by the more vocal minority (as referred to in Johan's first paragraph) ?

What do you think?

[Ijustwannateach]

I think that feminist ideology has had many important successes and one or two slightly dangerous failures.

As a philosophy that promotes the idea that women and men have the same value as persons, it is an important political and social advance. There's no telling how much has been lost over the millenia because of viewpoints perceiving women as possessions, chattels, uneducable, or 2nd class persons. Much human capital has probably also been wasted by perceiving roles assigned to women as 2nd rate (and thus forbidden to men who might have otherwise excelled in them) or by perceiving capable women as unfit for what were perceived as male roles.

Feminism has a long way to go in spreading this kind of enlightenment, but I can only look forward to a world where most Congresses, Parliaments, and Diets are at least 50% female.

Certain SMALL branches of Feminism have been failures in my mind for adopting extreme positions, such as those completely alienated and unwilling to work with men, those which attempt to cast women in the same types of power positions as men (i.e., winning the male game by male rules), and those which claim that the equality among genders means they are the SAME- most assuredly they are not. Men and women are bound to have certain general unique strengths and weaknesses as groups, but these fall far short of the differences normally ascribed by social role and stereotype.

When I realised as a gay man that I would have to give up some of the stereotypically male behavior patterns that society prefers to impose on men, it only made me that much more conscious of the pressure on women to impersonate themselves in society's roles. To a certain extent, the Marxist model makes sense applied to homophobia (which appears to affect straight men far more than any other group) because homosexuality is an apparent heresy against the normal power relationships among the sexes.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Sometimes, it's helpful to compare the labels. If the dominant group denigrates the Blacks as N******s and labels women as c***s, and gay men as q****s, that's a big hint. When feminist is only a bad word, and there's not even a word masculinist, or a good word for females who simply want equal rights, that's another hint.

When the bad label robs the minority group of a positive identity, tag that label as a cuss word.

[Jet Gorgon]

November Rain..I have come out of the shadows just to say to you thay you are certainly not a Militant Feminist..

You are a Strong Caring Woman as are most of the other good ladies on the TV ...

In my humble opinion there are a couple who let the side down but compared to the guys..

Just keep on being the Kind Caring person you are..Word cant hurt you if you dont let tham..LBD..

You referring to me, Ducky?

NR, you know how many times I've been bashed on TV (wait til you get to the funny farm). Some boys like to play hardball, but if we step in with a slash and burn comment, we get relegated to the B section and are likened to Maggie, Hillary, Medusa, etc. Most of the boys on TV are great; they give and take what's given. Some are spoiled tantrum trotters.

I never categorised myself in a group, just a person on the earth trying to figure out what I'm doing here, learning what I can and helping when I can. But I'm also here to have fun and if I can get a laugh out of somebody else, then that's the whipped cream on top.

[phibunmike]

Sometimes, it's helpful to compare the labels. If the dominant group denigrates the Blacks as N******s and labels women as c***s, and gay men as q****s, that's a big hint. When feminist is only a bad word, and there's not even a word masculinist, or a good word for females who simply want equal rights, that's another hint.

When the bad label robs the minority group of a positive identity, tag that label as a cuss word.

Agreed. I also think that PC-ness is basicly a flawed idea, because if the dominant group has a negative attitude to any particular 'other' group, then whatever term is used will eventually gain a perjorative interpretation. For example, 'black' was chosen as a neutral term (and is still my preferred term) - but started to be interpreted negatively in some quarters, so the term "African American" came into being. In my view the latter is ridiculous - how should one refer to a black from Africa ? - but I can imagine that in the future, "African American" will also be considered a disrespectful term.

I'm wandering off track here, but what I am saying is that whereas the label used can be a clue to the thought processes behind (as you stated), changing the labels does not change the thought process. And this is where the PC concept has got it wrong.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sheryl]

The definition of "feminism" is rather unclear. In my home country, Sweden, "feminism" is typically advocated by activists that have adopted a model of thought from marxist ideology. Men are always oppressors in power and are doing what they can to keep their position. Women are always oppressed victims. Thus, pretty much any way for women to grab more power at the expense of men is a good one. Quotas where, say, women are guaranteed a 50% representation in politics or in the management of companies are being carried out in Sweden as a response to the successful lobbying of such feminists. Now, not all people who label themselves "feminists" here argue along these lines, but I would say that most do.

I think what has happened is that the term "feminist" has been so distorted and so much disinformation about it spread that it has discouraged most main-stream women from using it or identifying with it. The Marxists or Marxist-influenced are sort of the only group left standing. Since a big part of the disinformation about feminism was that it was inherently "man-hating", it is understandable that pretty much only Marxist thinkers would feel comfortable with it...a key element of Marxist thought being a very pessimistic view of human nature and belief that, in any unequal situation, a "win-lose" confrontation must take place between the 2 sides in order for the disadvantaged group to improve their lot. Not a very helpful or constructive outlook when applied to anything, be it discrimination against women, racism, or poverty.

But that hardly means that feminism per se has a Marxist outlook....anymore than people who support poverty eradication are necessarily Marxists. Most of them are not. Marxism has its own spin which it applies to any and all social inequities.

I don't think it is so much that the Marxist thinkers have taken over feminism or feminist thought as it is that women have been, unfortunately, intimidated into avoiding the label. And that intimidation and distortion of what it means well pre-dates any Marxist input. Back in the 19th century, women campaigning for the right to vote were routinely portrayed as ugly, man-hating harpies; in fact, many were devoted wives and mothers (Elizabeth Cady Stanton had 6 children!) and quite attractive. It was also claimed that they were out to destroy the family, that if they had their way women would replace men in all spheres of life etc etc. All nonsense, and to their eternal credit these women perserved and did not allow this kind of slander and mis-representation to deter them.

In the 1960's and 70's, their descendants rallied for a second wave of effort, and were likewise slandered. It pains me to see younger women today buying into those lies, and hesitating to call themselves "feminists". If it were just a question of labels, it wouldn't matter, but it isn't. It is a technique of intimidation through distortion of facts....people are deterred from joining or endorsing a cause by being convinced that to do so would require them to advocate other things which are objectionable, or take on objectionable traits. The Equal Rights Amendment was squashed in the US largely through this sort of thing..the public was repeatedly told that it would mean a lot of things that it really wouldn't: male attendants in ladies' bathrooms and the like. Totally false, but as a scare tactic it worked.

I was part of the women's movement in the 60's and 70's, and I am proud to say so. Proud to see a younger generation of women enjoy a range of choices and options that women just didn't have back then. But saddened that they have been brainwashed about how those rights were won, and by whom, and even sadder to see that this sort of brain-washing inhibits further efforts to improve women's rights around the world.

So, for the record, younger ladies, please take it from one who was there:

- we did not burn bras. We wore them.

-we did not hate men; the vast majority of us were heterosexuals; we fell in love with some men, and cherished others as dear friends

- we were not, as a group, in any way unattractive. Many of us were beautiful. Most of us wore make-up and took care about our appearance.

etc etc

And most important: you cannot begin to imagine how bad conditions were back then, or how much worse your life today would be, had we not braved all the insults and mis-characterizations to fight for a more equitable deal for you and your daughters and grand-daughters to come.

On another point: This idea that feminists claim there are no differences between men and women is ridiculous and was never part of any main-stream feminist platform. In fact I have never seen or heard anyone seriously espouse the idea.... I've only heard critics accuse feminism of it. However, what is true is that back then there was a deep-rooted assumption that in any difference between male and female, the male was good and the female variant bad or inferior. Opponents of equal rights for women tended to make biological differences a justification for discrimination and to exaggerate their importance. Any sign of "special" (or even just different) needs on the part of women was immediately seized on to prove they were unworthy of equality. So women learned to play down gender-specific problems. It was simply not possible at that time to have a frank discussion of male and female differences without it being turned into justification for oppression of women. It is hard to explain that today, but you must understand that in the mid-60's it was considered perfectly reasonable to say that the fact that women menstruated made them unfit to hold political office, or enter professions like law or medicine. And certainly one couldn't talk about menstruation or menopause-related mood swings: these were the very things being taken as absolute proof that women were inferior and incapable of a vast range of things which they nowadays do without a second thought. (As if men are immune to the influence of hormones!)

I'm glad that this last part is passing away and that we can now talk openly and reasonably about innate biological differences. But we are able to do so only because society has largely come to accept that women are of equal worth -- and women have already won the opportunity to demonstrate their abilities in a wide arena. If, back then, we had talked about hormonal mood changes it would immediately have been taken as proof that women couldn't be politicians, doctors, supervisors, pilots, executives, you name it. And yes, back then, people did seriously and openly think that. Now that women are already doing all these things successfully, that issue has been rendered moot and we can move on.

A long-winded speech, I know...but you see, although we have come a long way, there is still more to be done. Even in the west, there is still prejudice, it is just more hidden now than it used to be. And world-wide, most women still lack the most basic equal rights. These changes must come, and those who work to make them happen will be slandered and their intentions and characteristics mis-represented....always have been. But if we let that worry us, we'll never get anywhere.

One last thing I should add -- the women's movement in the west, like the other social reforms that coincided with it (civil rights etc) was pursued in a typically western manner: aggressively and directly. As a result, change came much more quickly than it otherwise would have, but it also came at a certain price. Women could adapt well to the rapid change because it was, after all, to their benefit. But men raised to expect a wide range of automatic privileges that then didn't materialize sometimes had trouble adapting. Relations between men and women of that generation -- my generation -- were strained by the sudden change in ground rules and expectations. To some extent, they still are. Personally, I recognize that price but consider it more than worth what was gained. But, understandably, some men of my generation don't and are bitter about it.

A disporportionate number of them seem to post on TV. Ignore them.

[Jet Gorgon]

Lighten up, Ladies! No wonder men get so POed. It does not take ten paragraphs to state a point. Drivel!

[Grover]

Lighten up, Ladies! No wonder men get so POed. It does not take ten paragraphs to state a point. Drivel!

well, that made me laugh