Family (40ish w 5 yo) moving to Thailand. Your thoughts?

[Tawan77]

if you move here as you wish,please fill us in when you realise the people here saying you are not fully aware of the facts were right

I'll follow up either way! Guaranteed

[rhodie]

Just do it. The only reservation is your daughter and her education. You would need to monitor that closely, but with both of you being educators, you will be able to.

Sounds like you are a minimalist. This is something that many fail to understand. There are guys on here who have to live in a great big condo with lots of space and can't see how anyone can be happy living in a "shoebox". For some a shoebox is heaven. Just an example of 1 aspect of happiness/life.

You will never say you did't try unless you don't. Good luck.

[CaptHaddock]

Frankly I'm baffled by what it is that the OP finds so attractive in Thai culture that he wants to jeopardize the future of his whole family to embrace it. But chacun a son gout. Here is what I would suggest to the OP: for the moment take yourself out of the equation completely and ask if the only point were to provide the best future for your kid which would be better Canada or Thailand? There can only be one answer to that question. By being born in Canada, which is a great country, your kid has already won the life lottery. I find it incomprehensible that you would consider tossing that away while mouthing the usual pieties about how important your kid is to you.

Just consider one data point. Thailand military rulers are about to reduce free public education from twelve years to nine years. And there isn't a great hue and cry against it either. What other country goes backward like that with regard to the fundamental human right to education? Thailand's rich won't be directly affected perhaps even including you, but is that the kind of society that you think would bring special benefits to your child?

As a retiree I find that Thailand offers some benefits to my wife and me. I haven't been victimized by Thais and do not despise them, but I don't find much to admire in Thai culture either. It is society that actively discourages open inquiry and creativity, so you won't find much of either.

As for your financial plan, it might work, but it looks pretty fragile over the long haul. For one point, if your rental income is in loonies and your living expenses are in Thai baht you will be at the mercy of a persistent and dangerous currency exposure. So, you have to consider what the effect of currency fluctuations will be on your lifestyle, not just the current rate. If anything goes wrong such as employment or health problems, you might well be over your head especially if you are unable to resume your career in Canada, as you imply. You'll have much more risk here of all kinds, but without the admirable social safety net of Canada.

So, it's a big bet, much bigger for your kid than you, but large for all concerned. But for what? So, you don't have to see snow? Really? I just don't get it.

[taninthai]

I think op is getting carried away after just a 10 week holiday here,keeps mentioning cheap lifestyle,for a family it's quite hard to have a cheap lifestyle,schooling already mentioned many times very expensive.....western food expensive Insurance for family expensive.if you didn't have the kid I'd say go for it,if you want to ruin your daughters life I would also say go for it.

It's very different living in Thailand to holidaying in Thailand.

[Tawan77]

I think op is getting carried away after just a 10 week holiday here,keeps mentioning cheap lifestyle,for a family it's quite hard to have a cheap lifestyle,schooling already mentioned many times very expensive.....western food expensive Insurance for family expensive.if you didn't have the kid I'd say go for it,if you want to ruin your daughters life I would also say go for it.

It's very different living in Thailand to holidaying in Thailand.

Taninthai, I've also lived in Thailand; a full immersion experience in a relatively rural area with only 3 other farangs in town. I ate for 100B/day (could do it on 200 now), shopped at the local market, cooked Thai food in my wok on a single burner, had a 2BR apt for $70 USD/mo, took a minivan to BKK for 150B once or twice per month, and treated myself to sushi at Fuji on the odd trip. I've never ordered an import beer or cocktail in Thailand. I ride the bus in BKK for 12 baht instead of taking a taxi for 300. The poster who said we are minimalist understands how we live. We prefer *time* with our child to nurture and teach her, over working so we can pay a daycare to do it. We have this now, but in Thailand we'd have even more time for this. I need to figure out insurance and schooling, but I have no doubt we can live well and cheap in Thailand.

It seems like a lot to give up to avoid winter. Truth is, I have pretty debilitating seasonal depression. I'm generally full of zeal for life and work, but November to February kills me, and takes its toll on my family also. The 10week vacation was because I needed it. When I first came to Thailand I came to stay. Though we left, I spent the next three winters in warmer climes; Thailand, Israel, Brazil. I didn't want to live in a temperate climate, but after some success living in New York (but unable to stay permanently), my wife and I decided Toronto might be the best place for us to build a life. Probably true, as we've done really well here--so well that many would think us nuts to give up what we have here, but I've never let go of living abroad, and in Thailand in particular. My wife understand that. She has desires to live abroad again as well too, though feels the time hasn't arrived just yet, and while she'd do a year or two in Thailand, doesn't quite feel the affinity that I do (which I know is unusual). We'll work this out; maybe it's 5 weeks every winter, or maybe we retire there 6mos/year once our daughter graduates. In another month I could shelve this, not revisiting it until the end of October when things get dark. But right now, I'm inspired to do some homework.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Tawan77

[taninthai]

I think op is getting carried away after just a 10 week holiday here,keeps mentioning cheap lifestyle,for a family it's quite hard to have a cheap lifestyle,schooling already mentioned many times very expensive.....western food expensive Insurance for family expensive.if you didn't have the kid I'd say go for it,if you want to ruin your daughters life I would also say go for it.

It's very different living in Thailand to holidaying in Thailand.

Taninthai, I've also lived in Thailand; a full immersion experience in a relatively rural area with only 3 other farangs in town. I ate for 100B/day (could do it on 200 now), shopped at the local market, cooked Thai food in my wok on a single burner, had a 2BR apt for $70 USD/mo, took a minivan to BKK for 150B once or twice per month, and treated myself to sushi at Fuji on the odd trip. I've never ordered an import beer or cocktail in Thailand. I ride the bus in BKK for 12 baht instead of taking a taxi for 300. The poster who said we are minimalist understands how we live. We prefer *time* with our child to nurture and teach her, over working so we can pay a daycare to do it. We have this now, but in Thailand we'd have even more time for this. I need to figure out insurance and schooling, but I have no doubt we can live well and cheap in Thailand.

It seems like a lot to give up to avoid winter. Truth is, I have pretty debilitating seasonal depression. I'm generally full of zeal for life and work, but November to February kills me, and takes its toll on my family also. The 10week vacation was because I needed it. When I first came to Thailand I came to stay. Though we left, I spent the next three winters in warmer climes; Thailand, Israel, Brazil. I didn't want to live in a temperate climate, but after some success living in New York (but unable to stay permanently), my wife and I decided Toronto might be the best place for us to build a life. Probably true, as we've done really well here--so well that many would think us nuts to give up what we have here, but I've never let go of living abroad, and in Thailand in particular. My wife understand that. She has desires to live abroad again as well too, though feels the time hasn't arrived just yet, and while she'd do a year or two in Thailand, doesn't quite feel the affinity that I do (which I know is unusual). We'll work this out; maybe it's 5 weeks every winter, or maybe we retire there 6mos/year once our daughter graduates. In another month I could shelve this, not revisiting it until the end of October when things get dark. But right now, I'm inspired to do some homework.

I completely understand the lifestyle you live ,I just think a lot of the things people mention to you on this thread are going completely over your head example you say when you stayed for a year 15 years ago you could eat for 100 bht a day and now you think you could do it for 200,maybe you could but could your family of three do it for 200?that life soon becomes boring and monotonous....you just come across as you are only thinking of yourself and not your wife and family.you seem to be jumping in head first talking about permanent residency etc etc ,living g in Thailand as a single guy 15 years ago is completely different to living here with wife and family.if it was me I would rent the house out for 1 year contract take the girl out of school for 1 year and then give it ago.

[Tawan77]

I completely understand the lifestyle you live ,I just think a lot of the things people mention to you on this thread are going completely over your head example you say when you stayed for a year 15 years ago you could eat for 100 bht a day and now you think you could do it for 200,maybe you could but could your family of three do it for 200?that life soon becomes boring and monotonous....you just come across as you are only thinking of yourself and not your wife and family.you seem to be jumping in head first talking about permanent residency etc etc ,living g in Thailand as a single guy 15 years ago is completely different to living here with wife and family.if it was me I would rent the house out for 1 year contract take the girl out of school for 1 year and then give it ago.

I wasn't single when I lived there. Met my wife a week into my stay; she moved in a few months later. Totally monogamous. She was there 7 months with me. Never had a Thai girl; not tempted.

On our 10 week trip, we were happy to eat Thai every meal with a few exceptions. My kid was especially fond of khai yatsai and gaeng massaman. I love to cook; we wouldn't even eat out all the time...

I've expressed a few times that while I talk about residency and staying long term, it's not like I'll come and suffer a lousy life and unhappy family. We'd be constantly evaluating how things are, and would work together to decide whether we leave, and where to. Could be after a year. Like I said though, I believe you need to go somewhere with a plan and intend to stay. That's how you settle somewhere and make it home; it's how you learn a language, invest in relationships, and let go of your other life that can prevent you from living fully in a new place. I'm asking you all, if we were to do this, how can I give my kid the best life possible there? And do you think it worthwhile. I'm taking in all of the info and am hearing the naysayers loud and clear.

I do like your 1 year trial plan though. My wife would go for that, no problem.

[crazydrummerpauly]

Frankly I'm baffled by what it is that the OP finds so attractive in Thai culture that he wants to jeopardize the future of his whole family to embrace it. But chacun a son gout. Here is what I would suggest to the OP: for the moment take yourself out of the equation completely and ask if the only point were to provide the best future for your kid which would be better Canada or Thailand? There can only be one answer to that question. By being born in Canada, which is a great country, your kid has already won the life lottery. I find it incomprehensible that you would consider tossing that away while mouthing the usual pieties about how important your kid is to you.

Just consider one data point. Thailand military rulers are about to reduce free public education from twelve years to nine years. And there isn't a great hue and cry against it either. What other country goes backward like that with regard to the fundamental human right to education? Thailand's rich won't be directly affected perhaps even including you, but is that the kind of society that you think would bring special benefits to your child?

As a retiree I find that Thailand offers some benefits to my wife and me. I haven't been victimized by Thais and do not despise them, but I don't find much to admire in Thai culture either. It is society that actively discourages open inquiry and creativity, so you won't find much of either.

As for your financial plan, it might work, but it looks pretty fragile over the long haul. For one point, if your rental income is in loonies and your living expenses are in Thai baht you will be at the mercy of a persistent and dangerous currency exposure. So, you have to consider what the effect of currency fluctuations will be on your lifestyle, not just the current rate. If anything goes wrong such as employment or health problems, you might well be over your head especially if you are unable to resume your career in Canada, as you imply. You'll have much more risk here of all kinds, but without the admirable social safety net of Canada.

So, it's a big bet, much bigger for your kid than you, but large for all concerned. But for what? So, you don't have to see snow? Really? I just don't get it.

You didn't write this to show me how it can be calmly done, but thanks anyway! I admire your level-headed and well-written critique of Thai life and culture - i am so distressed and depressed by it all after seven years of experience that i find it really difficult to maintain self-control when talking about all the negative aspects of life here. [Read my rant above to see what i mean]. Ultimately, i can now see that the OP is an incorrigible Optimist, and for that reason he might actually make it work - and for that reason alone. I am not an optimist, i wasn't when i arrived in LoS, and i will be even less of one when i finally leave, which can't come soon enough. The OP thinks a lot of posters have had a lot of negative things to say - he is very wide of the mark - i could write a book on it, a long one.

[crazydrummerpauly]

You are 100% barking mad - and in relation to your daughter's immersion in Thai culture and education - totally selfish to boot. A decision like the one you are contemplating should not be made until you have lived here for at least 5 years. As it stands, you are too full of yourself and your abilities and sound judgement. You seem astonishingly unaware of the risks you would be taking ! Read all TV headlines every day for the next year, starting with the road carnage we are just totting up right now as the abomination Songkran comes to another grisly end. If it was you on your own, it would be not so heavy a decision, but to haul a well-settled family here ? NO. Let me put it as strongly as i can think of this moment - if any member of my extended family announced they were taking a child of school-age to South-East Asia, i would accuse them of self-indulgent idiocy bordering on child-abuse. I know 100 times more than you about the Thai education system and its dodgy practices and low standards - why ? - because i've lived with a Thai government teacher for 7 years and know that sector inside out. [by the way - i have just come in to the house after a mere 3-mile drive down the dark chaotic main street of our town, and had more hair-raising narrow escapes than you would expect in several years in the west - i wish i had dash-cam film to show you - your hair would turn white. At least 50 young motorcyclists driving as if they had lost the will to live straight down the centre between trucks and cars while water is thrown forcefully in their faces. This is a MAD-HOUSE. ]

On the subject of people 'Getting what they pay for in Thai education' - oh how hilarious that statement is when you know the truth. Why do you think a Thai degree or even masters is worth little outside of Thailand ? Because like everywhere else in T'land CORRUPT practices mean that each qualification is LITERALLY paid for one way or another. I have a London Uni PhD etc, and as soon as i was rumbled as 'dr' i was offered money from Thai postgrad students to write their dissertations for them - 'name yr price'. I refused, even though i did do a huge amount of editing of one 10,000-word piece as a one-time favour. I never did it again. Same with Thai teachers trying to get promotion - money under the table every time. And are you aware of the way those Thai head-teachers and Directors of education manage to go to all those social functions almost every night of the week ? By slicing their 'comimssion' off the budgets they are given to buy school equipment and supplies. You sound like a really 'nice' happy guy - maybe a touch on the hippy side ? (apologies if that offends) - but i really doubt that you know more than 10% of what really goes on in the Land of Wiles. Good luck if you take the leap, but i would absolutely not do it.

But hey - you've already decided haven't you ? :-)

Too hot, too depressed by suicidal road-nuts - this post is so bad-tempered i've Reported myself for being offensive ! Do whatever you think is best for ALL the family, but do at least look all around the world for other warm climes. With that level of monthly rental income your choices are many. [if my Report is acted on, the rant will disappear.]

Haha, man and I've been spending an hour considering my reply. Big of you to own up to ranting. The "idiocy" and "child abuse" comments were a bit much... but I'm not dismissing your post either. Your experience is real, and while you irked me claiming to know 100x more than me, I recognize your life is well meshed with Thai life and the Thai education system. Both of us will also acknowledge how freaking bitter some expats can become after a number of years there. I would never allow that to happen. If we weren't happy, we'd leave... but we'd go to Thailand committed to stay and to make it work. I believe that's how you have to approach living abroad. It's worked everywhere we've lived.

I've seen some wild driving in Thailand, but I've never had the response you have. I found highway driving in Jan-Mar to be incredibly civil; much improved over 13 years ago. Helmet use seems to be way higher too. That said, I missed Songkran. Maybe drivers get pretty stupid; Thais and farangs both!

We are definitely on the hippie spectrum. No offense taken there! That's where I think many expats won't relate to my question. I'm not a single guy into Thai girls, nor am I the kind of worker/diplomat who'd take a high paying job opportunity and put my kids in the elite international schools and live in a million dollar penthouse in Silom or Sukhumvit, nor are we retirees (though you can see I'm trying to retire at 40!). We're artists and travelers who've built up some wealth and capital and a great life by being frugal and making good investments. We've got a great life here. I'm not running away from it. I just think with our resources and privilege, that it could be even better. A life living abroad, with cultural immersion, living off our rental income and online work, looks like a pretty sweet life in Thailand where living is cheap, the holidays long, the country beautiful, a great travel hub to all of Asia. I think we can thrive. We can support our daughter's education with homeschooling as we'd have the time, desire, and skill to do this.

But no, I haven't already decided. there have been some tremendously helpful responses today. Thanks all. You too Pauly. If we come I'll be sure to hit you up for some pints (full of ice, of course!) Hang in there if life there has you down at times.

This might seem a strange thing to say, but you are not really worth the time people have taken to reply, because you are obviously unstoppably optimistic and positive ! (half-joke). You make a list of things to distinguish yourself from the typical ex-pat 'not a single guy into Thai girls' etc - which has the effect of distracting your attention away from all the tough things that you will be forced to confront about Thai life and culture. In the same way, there has been too much emphasis on the academic side of your daughter's life in South-East Asia and nowhere near enough on the truly dreadful aspects of Thai culture generally. I completely agree with CaptHaddock : "Frankly I'm baffled by what it is that the OP finds so attractive in Thai culture that he wants to jeopardize the future of his whole family to embrace it." So am i. Have you taken the time to read all the news stories in TV on a daily basis ? How on earth can you maintain a positive view of the country if you do. You must have very selective attention if you can say blithely that you 'missed Songkran' - it is an appalling orgy of reckless juvenile behaviour and drunkenness on an industrial scale. Not to mention : "KAMPHAENGPHET: Residents in downtown Kamphaengphet were picking up the pieces Friday after a gun and knife battle between two rival youth gangs caused mayhem at Songkran celebrations.

Police found at least twenty spent cartridges, broken bottles and smashed windows as they looked for evidence in the area between the Wat Sadej intersection and the Hotel Rachadamnern area in the downtown northern Thai town." -

And you feel completely unmoved by the carnage but only see the jolly fun ? Unmoved by the 300 dead and around 2,000 maimed ? Where else in the world would this level of loss of life be tolerated without action to close it down ? Answer - only in a few other extreme cultures, such as, unsurprisingly, India, where they also tolerate carnage on the roads as an unavoidable fact of life. By the way - your comments about seeing good driving and considerable helmet-wearing - really, i simply don't recognise that as the country i'm in. Where i am, helmet-wearing is pretty static at around 10-15% of bikers, and the driving is often insane on a daily basis - but then, this is a fairly big country with important differences between regions, and up in Isaan where i am, it's a place where rules are for ignoring as much as possible. But the stats cannot be ignored - at around 20,000 road-related deaths a year [though nobody knows the real figure], Thailand is very near the top of the global accident fatalities table - and to put that more concretely, it means that you are 10 times more likely to get smashed up on a road here than in the UK which has a similar population and very heavy congested traffic. As a result of that, daily near-misses are the norm. And i don't know anyone, Thai or farang, who isn't connected in some way with a road-death, such as the loss of a colleague's son or daughter if not one of their own immediate family.

I'm signing out - will not see anymore of this thread - because the gulf between our mentalities seems so great there is no possibility of useful debate. Basically, i disagree with almost everything you say - it might surprise you to learn that i don't even agree with your statement : "the country beautiful" - i find a lot of it ugly, shabby and filthy. [Away from the sandy-beach areas i admittedly never visit.] What is beautiful about streets of concrete boxes with every house trapped (defended) behind high concrete walls with spikes on top ? What is beautiful about never being able to take a walk without being armed to ward off street-dogs intent on maiming you and your family ? What is beautiful about never being able to go for a drive without some life-threatening narrow escape ? Have you never seen the soft beauty of villages all over Europe and felt your heart soar ? That is real beauty - so is the breathtaking splendour of old European capital cities, compared to which Bangkok is a stinking concrete jungle. But the final reason i'm checking out of this, is your use of the word 'BITTER' to describe any of us who have negative things to say about your planned utopia. That is reductive and offensive. It reduces everything we say to personal issues for a start, and it is offensive because it refuses to seriously take up the content of our genuine problems with the country. For information, i am not 'bitter' - i am disappointed, alarmed, stunned, baffled, and very very sad about how much less the country is than it could and should be. [Fascinatingly, so is the current military leader of the place, who only last night on tv could not halt his long compulsive speech about how many things are wrong here - never saw a more anxious & depressed supremo in my life]. Ok, that's me done - final thought : it's been suggested that you could do a 'trial year' and that's obvious a reasonable idea - but given the especially covert way much of Thai culture works, you probably won't learn much about the 'real Thailand' in such a short time, so if you make a decision based on just a year, don't be surprised of you get some shocks later on. Best of luck with it !

[sandyf]

It is not all bad. My niece went to the state school in Chonburi and now in common with a large percentage of her class is at university. She was offered 7 places in Thailand but not what she wanted so she is doing Clinical Medicine at Sun Yat Sen in China. She is on an international English course, mainly Indians and Americans, and has been awarded scholarships on both 1st and 2nd year results. Not only has she to study medicine but also English and Chinese, initially disadvantaged compared to the majority of the course but got over it.

I would suggest that you have a serious look at the Chonburi/Bang Saen/Sri Ratcha area which has quite a variety of differing opportunities. There are quite a number of fairly large schools and there is a university at Bang Saen. There is also a fair amount of international business in the area with openings for foreigners. Good luck.

[fey]

is it thailand your wife is hesitant about, or is it the living arrangement?

it seems you live a pretty cushy life in canada in a nice home, then you want to come to thailand and sit on floor cushions and live in a shack

not surprising some woman would be reluctant

something made you do that in canada, youll likely do it again anywhere you move unless you have found the root issue

Edited April 16, 2016 by fey

[Sharpasatack]

I think you could do it for awhile in Thailand without a problem but it might get old after a few years. One observation, you were here when the weather is perfect, Jan to Mar. Now it is <deleted> hot and you may not think it is so great a place to escape the weather, too hot is not that much better than too cold. Actually I would prefer the Canada weather in April to very hot time in Thailand.

On your daughter's education, fine for awhile especially since the bulk of her English education will be by you at home. I believe that primary school is a little bit of education, socialization with her friends and a whole lot of pure babysitting.

You guys are Jews, so why not just pack up the car and be snowbirds to Boca? You would fit in immediately, have Jewish Community Centers, Hebrew school, etc. I also liked the Cuba idea which would get you all into Spanish instead of Thai if you creave the adventure. There is also the Gulf coast such as Alabama, or Louisiana, The Texas Coast or AR orCA if you can put up with the dry. You could be US citizens after some years but I would not know how to advise that.

One last observation, as you and the wife hit the 50s, you will have the temptation of the 20s girls and the wife does not have that. Women sort of lose their looks, but men do not need looks, only white skin which seems to equate to $$$. Good luck!

[Tawan77]

is it thailand your wife is hesitant about, or is it the living arrangement?

It's not really about Thailand for her. We're on the same page in that she likes living simply as well, would like to live abroad again, does like Thailand. The differences are that she loves our life in Canada. It took her a while; it wasn't this way until recently. Because of that we'll likely stay here a while yet. We have common views on how to live, how to spend, and the value of global living. She doesn't want to live in Thailand forever however (but could spend a few months/year happily)

it seems you live a pretty cushy life in canada in a nice home, then you want to come to thailand and sit on floor cushions and live in a shack

not surprising some woman would be reluctant

We make it cushy. If I'm giving the we're-loaded vibe, that's wrong. We have a modest income below the national average, living in the nation's most expensive city. We don't own a vehicle. We own a beautiful and valuable house, but little more. We spend next to nothing on material things that most people sink a lot of money into; clothing, hobbies, home decor. Where we are rich is that we are mostly self employed and get to spend a ton of time together, and with our daughter. I'm a music director; a teaching/performing musician. She's a private language teacher.

[Tawan77]

I think you could do it for awhile in Thailand without a problem but it might get old after a few years. One observation, you were here when the weather is perfect, Jan to Mar. Now it is <deleted> hot and you may not think it is so great a place to escape the weather, too hot is not that much better than too cold. Actually I would prefer the Canada weather in April to very hot time in Thailand.On your daughter's education, fine for awhile especially since the bulk of her English education will be by you at home. I believe that primary school is a little bit of education, socialization with her friends and a whole lot of pure babysitting.You guys are Jews, so why not just pack up the car and be snowbirds to Boca? You would fit in immediately, have Jewish Community Centers, Hebrew school, etc. I also liked the Cuba idea which would get you all into Spanish instead of Thai if you creave the adventure. There is also the Gulf coast such as Alabama, or Louisiana, The Texas Coast or AR orCA if you can put up with the dry. You could be US citizens after some years but I would not know how to advise that.One last observation, as you and the wife hit the 50s, you will have the temptation of the 20s girls and the wife does not have that. Women sort of lose their looks, but men do not need looks, only white skin which seems to equate to $$$. Good luck!

I see you really trying to help us here with your suggestions. Thanks! You've missed the mark on a few things though.

- you won't ever catch me in Florida; not my kind of place at all! we'd never leave Canada to live in the United States... Well, *maybe* Hawaii if there were a great job opportunity, but not even San Francisco or San Diego could lure me.

- the conservative values of the gulf coast would drive me mad.

- we love the heat. 40 is a bit much, but 35 is great if I don't need to be in business attire

- I'm not Jewish, but yes, my wife is. She's culturally Jewish but (very) non-religious. We are not rooted in Jewish community, though proud of that part of our family heritage.

- I can resist the advances of younger women. Maybe at 50 that'll change, but I doubt it. My wife and I have a very solid foundation (because we've weathered all of our differences, including moving/living around the world).

[Sharpasatack]

I think you could do it for awhile in Thailand without a problem but it might get old after a few years. One observation, you were here when the weather is perfect, Jan to Mar. Now it is <deleted> hot and you may not think it is so great a place to escape the weather, too hot is not that much better than too cold. Actually I would prefer the Canada weather in April to very hot time in Thailand.On your daughter's education, fine for awhile especially since the bulk of her English education will be by you at home. I believe that primary school is a little bit of education, socialization with her friends and a whole lot of pure babysitting.You guys are Jews, so why not just pack up the car and be snowbirds to Boca? You would fit in immediately, have Jewish Community Centers, Hebrew school, etc. I also liked the Cuba idea which would get you all into Spanish instead of Thai if you creave the adventure. There is also the Gulf coast such as Alabama, or Louisiana, The Texas Coast or AR orCA if you can put up with the dry. You could be US citizens after some years but I would not know how to advise that.One last observation, as you and the wife hit the 50s, you will have the temptation of the 20s girls and the wife does not have that. Women sort of lose their looks, but men do not need looks, only white skin which seems to equate to $$$. Good luck!

I see you really trying to help us here with your suggestions. Thanks! You've missed the mark on a few things though.

- you won't ever catch me in Florida; not my kind of place at all! we'd never leave Canada to live in the United States... Well, *maybe* Hawaii if there were a great job opportunity, but not even San Francisco or San Diego could lure me.

- the conservative values of the gulf coast would drive me mad.

- we love the heat. 40 is a bit much, but 35 is great if I don't need to be in business attire

- I'm not Jewish, but yes, my wife is. She's culturally Jewish but (very) non-religious. We are not rooted in Jewish community, though proud of that part of our family heritage.

- I can resist the advances of younger women. Maybe at 50 that'll change, but I doubt it. My wife and I have a very solid foundation (because we've weathered all of our differences, including moving/living around the world).

[Sharpasatack]

I hear you regarding the US. I hate being there now. It has turned into a not-so-nice place on the whole. I sort of feel sorry for the bulk of the people there believing the American way is the best and only way. We are in about the same boat as you but our son is only 3, so we have a little while before deciding on whether we need to move from Thailand. I don't have any need to work and am above 50 so my stay in Thailand is already pretty easy. I have companies in US, Singapore and elsewhere so I do not work. We have property in Vietnam and I am South African so we may hit Cape Town next where we should have near Western education and medical. I love the idea of what you are doing and I would not worry much about your daughter's education given you and your wife are educators. I think the adventure of foreign lands is an education in itself. I plan to go to as many cultures with my family as possible for as long as I can.

[Tawan77]

This might seem a strange thing to say, but you are not really worth the time people have taken to reply, because you are obviously unstoppably optimistic and positive ! (half-joke).

Now you get me.

the final reason i'm checking out of this, is your use of the word 'BITTER' to describe any of us who have negative things to say about your planned utopia. That is reductive and offensive.... i am not 'bitter' - i am disappointed, alarmed, stunned, baffled, and very very sad about how much less the country is than it could and should be.

Thanks for addressing this. My eternal optimism comes into hard collision with (complainers in general, and) expats who can't say Thai/Thailand (or any other country where expats reside) without saying "f'ing" first. I've met too many. You're right though, those feelings of frustration and disappointment are easily justified. There's much to lament about Thailand. I just feel that there are some people who'd rather complain than either making a change or sucking it up. A privileged comment for sure, but many expats have no shortage of privilege.

Best of luck with it !

Thanks! I'll let you know how it goes

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[Noreya]

is it thailand your wife is hesitant about, or is it the living arrangement?

It's not really about Thailand for her. We're on the same page in that she likes living simply as well, would like to live abroad again, does like Thailand. The differences are that she loves our life in Canada. It took her a while; it wasn't this way until recently. Because of that we'll likely stay here a while yet. We have common views on how to live, how to spend, and the value of global living. She doesn't want to live in Thailand forever however (but could spend a few months/year happily)

it seems you live a pretty cushy life in canada in a nice home, then you want to come to thailand and sit on floor cushions and live in a shack

not surprising some woman would be reluctant

We make it cushy. If I'm giving the we're-loaded vibe, that's wrong. We have a modest income below the national average, living in the nation's most expensive city. We don't own a vehicle. We own a beautiful and valuable house, but little more. We spend next to nothing on material things that most people sink a lot of money into; clothing, hobbies, home decor. Where we are rich is that we are mostly self employed and get to spend a ton of time together, and with our daughter. I'm a music director; a teaching/performing musician. She's a private language teacher.

Now you answers my questions too. Because I think you live a pretty cushy life in Canada.

My concern is only your income when you live in Thailand. But if you are positive about that. I think your family can manage to live here in Thailand. Anyway keep your house in Canada for exist plan, rent it but do not sell it.For your kid school you may ask information from Jewish community in Thailand http://www.jewishthailand.com FYI: I am Thai woman 49 yo.

[Tawan77]

I think the adventure of foreign lands is an education in itself. I plan to go to as many cultures with my family as possible for as long as I can.

Finally, someone said it!

Congrats on your successes. Good luck!

[bitcoinforever]

your wife will have it very rough here. you are familiar with the hill tribes. my wife is hill tribe . we live in town =city she has one thai friend and we have been here 7 years thai's are very insular so much so they consider her an outsider. you may not want your daughter to be in a western bubble but the little thai girls she goes to school with will put her in one, do you know the number one country for instagram usage is Thailand, Think about that for a second,taking photos of themselves is the biggest thing do you want your daughter to end up like that just to be part of the group. Are you a pig in Chinese astrology? or what is you sign

[lemonjelly]

I'm sure there's beautiful places in Canada you could relocate to, for your daughter's sake.

[asean]

You are 100% barking mad - and in relation to your daughter's immersion in Thai culture and education - totally selfish to boot. A decision like the one you are contemplating should not be made until you have lived here for at least 5 years. As it stands, you are too full of yourself and your abilities and sound judgement. You seem astonishingly unaware of the risks you would be taking ! Read all TV headlines every day for the next year, starting with the road carnage we are just totting up right now as the abomination Songkran comes to another grisly end. If it was you on your own, it would be not so heavy a decision, but to haul a well-settled family here ? NO. Let me put it as strongly as i can think of this moment - if any member of my extended family announced they were taking a child of school-age to South-East Asia, i would accuse them of self-indulgent idiocy bordering on child-abuse. I know 100 times more than you about the Thai education system and its dodgy practices and low standards - why ? - because i've lived with a Thai government teacher for 7 years and know that sector inside out. [by the way - i have just come in to the house after a mere 3-mile drive down the dark chaotic main street of our town, and had more hair-raising narrow escapes than you would expect in several years in the west - i wish i had dash-cam film to show you - your hair would turn white. At least 50 young motorcyclists driving as if they had lost the will to live straight down the centre between trucks and cars while water is thrown forcefully in their faces. This is a MAD-HOUSE. ]

On the subject of people 'Getting what they pay for in Thai education' - oh how hilarious that statement is when you know the truth. Why do you think a Thai degree or even masters is worth little outside of Thailand ? Because like everywhere else in T'land CORRUPT practices mean that each qualification is LITERALLY paid for one way or another. I have a London Uni PhD etc, and as soon as i was rumbled as 'dr' i was offered money from Thai postgrad students to write their dissertations for them - 'name yr price'. I refused, even though i did do a huge amount of editing of one 10,000-word piece as a one-time favour. I never did it again. Same with Thai teachers trying to get promotion - money under the table every time. And are you aware of the way those Thai head-teachers and Directors of education manage to go to all those social functions almost every night of the week ? By slicing their 'comimssion' off the budgets they are given to buy school equipment and supplies. You sound like a really 'nice' happy guy - maybe a touch on the hippy side ? (apologies if that offends) - but i really doubt that you know more than 10% of what really goes on in the Land of Wiles. Good luck if you take the leap, but i would absolutely not do it.

But hey - you've already decided haven't you ? :-)

Too hot, too depressed by suicidal road-nuts - this post is so bad-tempered i've Reported myself for being offensive ! Do whatever you think is best for ALL the family, but do at least look all around the world for other warm climes. With that level of monthly rental income your choices are many. [if my Report is acted on, the rant will disappear.]

Haha, man and I've been spending an hour considering my reply. Big of you to own up to ranting. The "idiocy" and "child abuse" comments were a bit much... but I'm not dismissing your post either. Your experience is real, and while you irked me claiming to know 100x more than me, I recognize your life is well meshed with Thai life and the Thai education system. Both of us will also acknowledge how freaking bitter some expats can become after a number of years there. I would never allow that to happen. If we weren't happy, we'd leave... but we'd go to Thailand committed to stay and to make it work. I believe that's how you have to approach living abroad. It's worked everywhere we've lived.

I've seen some wild driving in Thailand, but I've never had the response you have. I found highway driving in Jan-Mar to be incredibly civil; much improved over 13 years ago. Helmet use seems to be way higher too. That said, I missed Songkran. Maybe drivers get pretty stupid; Thais and farangs both!

We are definitely on the hippie spectrum. No offense taken there! That's where I think many expats won't relate to my question. I'm not a single guy into Thai girls, nor am I the kind of worker/diplomat who'd take a high paying job opportunity and put my kids in the elite international schools and live in a million dollar penthouse in Silom or Sukhumvit, nor are we retirees (though you can see I'm trying to retire at 40!). We're artists and travelers who've built up some wealth and capital and a great life by being frugal and making good investments. We've got a great life here. I'm not running away from it. I just think with our resources and privilege, that it could be even better. A life living abroad, with cultural immersion, living off our rental income and online work, looks like a pretty sweet life in Thailand where living is cheap, the holidays long, the country beautiful, a great travel hub to all of Asia. I think we can thrive. We can support our daughter's education with homeschooling as we'd have the time, desire, and skill to do this.

But no, I haven't already decided. there have been some tremendously helpful responses today. Thanks all. You too Pauly. If we come I'll be sure to hit you up for some pints (full of ice, of course!) Hang in there if life there has you down at times.

This might seem a strange thing to say, but you are not really worth the time people have taken to reply, because you are obviously unstoppably optimistic and positive ! (half-joke). You make a list of things to distinguish yourself from the typical ex-pat 'not a single guy into Thai girls' etc - which has the effect of distracting your attention away from all the tough things that you will be forced to confront about Thai life and culture. In the same way, there has been too much emphasis on the academic side of your daughter's life in South-East Asia and nowhere near enough on the truly dreadful aspects of Thai culture generally. I completely agree with CaptHaddock : "Frankly I'm baffled by what it is that the OP finds so attractive in Thai culture that he wants to jeopardize the future of his whole family to embrace it." So am i. Have you taken the time to read all the news stories in TV on a daily basis ? How on earth can you maintain a positive view of the country if you do. You must have very selective attention if you can say blithely that you 'missed Songkran' - it is an appalling orgy of reckless juvenile behaviour and drunkenness on an industrial scale. Not to mention : "KAMPHAENGPHET: Residents in downtown Kamphaengphet were picking up the pieces Friday after a gun and knife battle between two rival youth gangs caused mayhem at Songkran celebrations.

Police found at least twenty spent cartridges, broken bottles and smashed windows as they looked for evidence in the area between the Wat Sadej intersection and the Hotel Rachadamnern area in the downtown northern Thai town." -

And you feel completely unmoved by the carnage but only see the jolly fun ? Unmoved by the 300 dead and around 2,000 maimed ? Where else in the world would this level of loss of life be tolerated without action to close it down ? Answer - only in a few other extreme cultures, such as, unsurprisingly, India, where they also tolerate carnage on the roads as an unavoidable fact of life. By the way - your comments about seeing good driving and considerable helmet-wearing - really, i simply don't recognise that as the country i'm in. Where i am, helmet-wearing is pretty static at around 10-15% of bikers, and the driving is often insane on a daily basis - but then, this is a fairly big country with important differences between regions, and up in Isaan where i am, it's a place where rules are for ignoring as much as possible. But the stats cannot be ignored - at around 20,000 road-related deaths a year [though nobody knows the real figure], Thailand is very near the top of the global accident fatalities table - and to put that more concretely, it means that you are 10 times more likely to get smashed up on a road here than in the UK which has a similar population and very heavy congested traffic. As a result of that, daily near-misses are the norm. And i don't know anyone, Thai or farang, who isn't connected in some way with a road-death, such as the loss of a colleague's son or daughter if not one of their own immediate family.

I'm signing out - will not see anymore of this thread - because the gulf between our mentalities seems so great there is no possibility of useful debate. Basically, i disagree with almost everything you say - it might surprise you to learn that i don't even agree with your statement : "the country beautiful" - i find a lot of it ugly, shabby and filthy. [Away from the sandy-beach areas i admittedly never visit.] What is beautiful about streets of concrete boxes with every house trapped (defended) behind high concrete walls with spikes on top ? What is beautiful about never being able to take a walk without being armed to ward off street-dogs intent on maiming you and your family ? What is beautiful about never being able to go for a drive without some life-threatening narrow escape ? Have you never seen the soft beauty of villages all over Europe and felt your heart soar ? That is real beauty - so is the breathtaking splendour of old European capital cities, compared to which Bangkok is a stinking concrete jungle. But the final reason i'm checking out of this, is your use of the word 'BITTER' to describe any of us who have negative things to say about your planned utopia. That is reductive and offensive. It reduces everything we say to personal issues for a start, and it is offensive because it refuses to seriously take up the content of our genuine problems with the country. For information, i am not 'bitter' - i am disappointed, alarmed, stunned, baffled, and very very sad about how much less the country is than it could and should be. [Fascinatingly, so is the current military leader of the place, who only last night on tv could not halt his long compulsive speech about how many things are wrong here - never saw a more anxious & depressed supremo in my life]. Ok, that's me done - final thought : it's been suggested that you could do a 'trial year' and that's obvious a reasonable idea - but given the especially covert way much of Thai culture works, you probably won't learn much about the 'real Thailand' in such a short time, so if you make a decision based on just a year, don't be surprised of you get some shocks later on. Best of luck with it !

Don't stress buddy this is just one of those fake posts that TV put up to attract more activity and it seems to be working well. No man in his right mind would move with his wife and daughter to Thailand

[theguyfromanotherforum]

My daughter is 4 and goes to a private school, but she could speak English and do the Alphabet before she went - one year later only the drawing has improved ..... none of them as far as i can see read yet, apart from single letters.

Ugh.

i suggest you seriously consider home learning (as an extra to school).

Yes, we would

I would also consider how much pension from Canada you would get when you retire and when (bearing in mind that in Thailand you may have to retire at a younger age). Taking into account daughter's education, living costs and health insurance i wouldn't want to do it on less than 60,000 baht a month as a minimum - i struggle on 50,000 and have no vices.

See that's the thing a few replying have missed. We own a home in Toronto that we can rent for over $3000 USD/mo. That's our pension. (Canadian pension is measly if not supported by a corporate pension, which I have none). We'd only need a modest income in Thailand. We could probably make international schools work financially, though we'd prefer to save more for our later years. It's a lot of money, and I'm a believer in public education (though it sounds like I should say public-Canadian education and not necessarily Thai), but we could put our daughter in private school if necessary. (Will international school kids still become fluent in Thai?)

As said, if you do try, have a plan to go back to Canada if you need to.

Exactly... though I couldn't return to my current jobs, which is a little scary...

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I am Canadian and you will not rent a home for $3000.

The Canadian government will take 25% of that income and you will have to hire a real estate agent to take care of your payments at additional 10% cost to you.

I have only one place in Canada that I'm renting and consider it a headache. I wouldn't even know where to start if I had kids that would need an education in a third world country.

[Tawan77]

I am Canadian and you will not rent a home for $3000.

The Canadian government will take 25% of that income and you will have to hire a real estate agent to take care of your payments at additional 10% cost to you.

I have only one place in Canada that I'm renting and consider it a headache. I wouldn't even know where to start if I had kids that would need an education in a third world country.

We know what our house rents for. We've rented it. We're in the heart of Toronto. $4k CAD gross/mo. Yes, we'd have Canadian taxes and associated property management fees, but there's some hefty income there. People would think it ludicrous that it is worth what it is and can rent for that much--it's a pretty humble 2-storey brick home (with a basement unit) on a small lot, but that's the Toronto real estate market for you.

I am probably underestimating the headache that goes with renting property from abroad though...

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[theguyfromanotherforum]

Ok so you are renting your home for $4000 and $3000 is your income after tax.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

BTW, real estate in Bangkok costs more than Toronto.

[Tawan77]

Ok so you are renting your home for $4000 and $3000 is your income after tax.

No, I said $3000 USD (rather than 4k CAD) assuming more people know the USD exchange rate than Canadian. I'd be looking to live in a place in a smaller center. I know I couldn't afford--or at least wouldn't want to spend it--to live in Bangkok. My 2 storey, 2br townhouse in Chombung, Ratchaburi was $80/mo in 2004. It could be $300 now, but I doubt it... cheap, quality living!

[kannot]

What will your wife do all day in Thailand? Thailand is a great place for a bloke, but can be hard on older foreign woman unless they have a fulfilling life and good support network (hard to achieve in rural Thailand).

Having said this, why put yourself and your family through another Canadian winter? You could look at your wife and child staying in Canada while you try it for a year. They can come visit you for holidays and vice versa.

You will need to put your daughter in a good EP school which may limit where you can teach and live. She won't be picked on or teased in a Thai school, but she will never be assimilated or made to feel really welcome. Thai people will never understand why you have put her into a Thai school for the 'experience'. Anyone you have to deal with in authority will be uncomfortable about the situation. I'm sure she will pick up Thai easily enough from her classmates and teachers in an EP school.

Great post, thanks Steve. My wife also making a life there is definitely something we're talking a lot about. Her integration and happiness in a lot of ways is of greater concern. We both think our daughter would be fine. My wife would love to run a guest house, but I see all kinds of barriers there, from work permits to property ownership. I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has a guest house. Neither of us are Thai so I understand we'd need a Thai business partner, which is pretty frightening. Info is appreciated.

Good to hear those thoughts on EP schools. Those fees are easily doable. I'm thinking Phet'buri, Rat'buri, ChaAm, HuanHin area...

Thanks again for the responses

EDIT: I should have added that my wife already makes most of her income teaching online, so she has skills and income there. But finding community and friendships, that's a greater challenge. I don't see her learning Thai to the degree that I have or will, so we'll need to straddle Thai culture and the expat community.

"My wife would love to run a guest house" im sorry you are dreaming, guaranteed money loser, any decent location will have been taken and be WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYyyy out of your price range

[kannot]

I'm sure there's beautiful places in Canada you could relocate to, for your daughter's sake.

Vancouver island and better weather too with the sea helping the climate no end

[CaptHaddock]

Ok so you are renting your home for $4000 and $3000 is your income after tax.

No. His rent is CAD 4,000 which converts to USD 3,000, all of it before taxes, maintenance, management fee, etc.