Old constitutions to be adopted if public votes no to draft charter

[MZurf]

Isn't that the constitution that could not be put to a referendum, because they knew it would be overwhelmingly rejected and cost the country billions if baht ?

The one that had an appointed senate and could vote in an outsider as pm ?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I am actually having a hard time understanding the difference between the 2014 interim constitution and the constitution they are currently arguing about.

Could someone tell me the differences plleeeaaasse.

The difference is this one can be rejected

the other one can't be

Oh.

But the point of contention in both is the same right? ???

Yes, they're both deeply undemocratic.

Who signed the Constitution of the United States? Were they democratically elected at the time??

No they were not.

Just a bunch of guys who took charge at the time

Are you seriously comparing the founding fathers of the US, arguably some of the most progressive persons of their time, with the bunch of dinosaurs who have taken power in Thailand???

[tuanku]

How old? are we going back to this?

sakdina

[DrTuner]

How old? are we going back to this?

sakdina

This article is worth linking to when mentioning Sakdina: https://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/the-last-orientals-the-thai-sakdina-system/

[Snig27]

A trustworthy outside body, such as UN or an NGO, should be called in to monitor the Charter referendum,. Otherwise, the outcome is likely to be as believable as those "independent" pro-junta popularity polls published in the Thai media.

That, of course, is the overriding risk. This juntas grasp on accountability, transparency and clean governance is as questionable as any earlier 'government'. Indeed, less so since it's illegal to question anything they do.

[tuanku]

How old? are we going back to this?

sakdina

This article is worth linking to when mentioning Sakdina: https://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/the-last-orientals-the-thai-sakdina-system/

Thank you, Doc

[Artisi]

How old? are we going back to this?

sakdina

This article is worth linking to when mentioning Sakdina: https://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/the-last-orientals-the-thai-sakdina-system/

Agree or disagree with the sakdina system, this article is certainly worth reading.

[MaxLee]

Old constitution: "Put up shut up, accept it or be destroyed in the secret place which must not be named due to forums rules"

[Plutojames88]

It's better to die on your feet than to Live on your knees

[JAG]

It's better to die on your feet than to Live on your knees

That's a fine and noble statement.

However I rather suspect that its author never tried to find cover whilst soldiers on the adjacent elevated railway fired at him.

That experience, and the precedent which it established is fresh (very fresh) in the memories of the Thai people. That is at present sufficient to temper their dislike ( or stronger) of this regime.

I think that the junta have got a fair amount further to go before a majority decide to risk getting up off their knees.

Edited April 16, 2016 by JAG

[SeniorNice]

It's better to die on your feet than to Live on your knees

That's a fine and noble statement.

However I rather suspect that its author never tried to find cover whilst soldiers on the adjacent elevated railway fired at him.

That experience, and the precedent which it established fresh (very fresh) in the memories of the Thai people. That is at present sufficient to temper their dislike ( or stronger) of this regime.

I think that the junta have got a fair amount further to go before a majority decide to risk getting up off their knees.

Black may of 92 could happen again. Sadly it might be what it takes to see change.

[JAG]

It's better to die on your feet than to Live on your knees

That's a fine and noble statement.

However I rather suspect that its author never tried to find cover whilst soldiers on the adjacent elevated railway fired at him.

That experience, and the precedent which it established fresh (very fresh) in the memories of the Thai people. That is at present sufficient to temper their dislike ( or stronger) of this regime.

I think that the junta have got a fair amount further to go before a majority decide to risk getting up off their knees.

Black may of 92 could happen again. Sadly it might be what it takes to see change.

Oh I think that there is now, sadly, virtually no chance that this will end without bloodshed.

There is in due course, bound to be some vicious infighting, which may lead to bloodshed, between various factions of the ruling classes when "the time" comes.

That blood will probably be spilt on the carpets of their air conditioned mansions, behind closed doors. It could also spread to the streets if there are popular protests.

[CloudStrife]

How old? are we going back to this?

sakdina

This is exactly what elite of this country want back.

And, in a less in your face way, they are certainly aching that.

[MaxLee]

It's better to die on your feet than to Live on your knees

That's a fine and noble statement.

However I rather suspect that its author never tried to find cover whilst soldiers on the adjacent elevated railway fired at him.

That experience, and the precedent which it established fresh (very fresh) in the memories of the Thai people. That is at present sufficient to temper their dislike ( or stronger) of this regime.

I think that the junta have got a fair amount further to go before a majority decide to risk getting up off their knees.

Black may of 92 could happen again. Sadly it might be what it takes to see change.

Oh I think that there is now, sadly, virtually no chance that this will end without bloodshed.

There is in due course, bound to be some vicious infighting, which may lead to bloodshed, between various factions of the ruling classes when "the time" comes.

That blood will probably be spilt on the carpets of their air conditioned mansions, behind closed doors. It could also spread to the streets if there are popular protests.

Yep, no matter who is in power, the rest of innocent of the country are always the losers and victims at the expense of the greedy parties and their greedy followers.....

[Somtamnication]

The best analogy I can think of is of a dog chasing its tail.

[bangon04]

Most Thais dont even know what a constitution is.............maybe thats been the problem all along.

The fact that most Thais do not understand or care what is a constitution is not a problem - it makes it really easy to suspend it and manage without whenever the establishment chooses.

[CloudStrife]

How old? are we going back to this?

sakdina

This article is worth linking to when mentioning Sakdina: https://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/the-last-orientals-the-thai-sakdina-system/

I knew the Thai word for Ammart and now I know the word the patronage system here. Sakdina.

Still very prevalent in Thailand today. I laugh at foreigners that think they are part of it too.

[greenchair]

Thailand in my opinion, is attempting to create the greatest illusion in world history, to it's people and the international community.

The illusion that thailand is a fully democratic system, when in reality it would be fully ruled behind the scenes by a few unelected elite.

If the international community buy it," Great", business and prosperity as usual. If they "don't", even those elite better get ready for some hard times.

[smutcakes]

Thailand in my opinion, is attempting to create the greatest illusion in world history, to it's people and the international community.

The illusion that thailand is a fully democratic system, when in reality it would be fully ruled behind the scenes by a few unelected elite.

If the international community buy it," Great", business and prosperity as usual. If they "don't", even those elite better get ready for some hard times.

Of course they don't buy it, if you, i and 95% of posters here can see whats going on, i would presume foregin government offices would see that and have far more in depth knowledge of the maneoverings behind the scenes.

[tuanku]

Thailand in my opinion, is attempting to create the greatest illusion in world history, to it's people and the international community.

The illusion that thailand is a fully democratic system, when in reality it would be fully ruled behind the scenes by a few unelected elite.

If the international community buy it," Great", business and prosperity as usual. If they "don't", even those elite better get ready for some hard times.

Of course they don't buy it, if you, i and 95% of posters here can see whats going on, i would presume foregin government offices would see that and have far more in depth knowledge of the maneoverings behind the scenes.

Most Thai's don't really buy it either, but they do buy INTO it. They are happier of the great and the good are telling them what to do so they don't have to puzzle it out for themselves. The whole "education" system is geared to maintaining this dependency on a wise father figure in Thai culture.

[MaxLee]

Thailand in my opinion, is attempting to create the greatest illusion in world history, to it's people and the international community.

The illusion that thailand is a fully democratic system, when in reality it would be fully ruled behind the scenes by a few unelected elite.

If the international community buy it," Great", business and prosperity as usual. If they "don't", even those elite better get ready for some hard times.

The illusion of "Saving Face still working in the 21st century"

[Khon Kaen Dave]

Kiwiken

Your sister is of the same type of thinking that we had in the UK in the 15th 16th and 17th centuries.

[Kiwiken]

My Thai Sister explained to me. She said you not understand Thai way. People on land (Farmers) are stupid therefore should not have vote. People of Krung Thep old educated Ruler understand how to run Country therefore they should have vote not stupid Country people. See simple.

I know the children of some of these stupid people. Many of them are the first in their families to finish secondary school and now have graduate degrees. My favorite has barely literate parents, she is now studying for her PhD in Chemistry in South Korea on a full academic scholarship.

I'm only a generation removed from these farmer's children. I have three degrees; none of my grandparents finished high school.

I did not say I agreed with her. In fact My answer was if you believe they are not educated enough then it is your Duty to ensure they do get a level of education that allows them to understand. A wiser person than I said "You can fool all of the people some of the time and Some of the people all of the time. But you cannot fool all of the people all of the time." The new Generation are not as silly as the Elites believe.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Kiwiken

[mtls2005]

I don't think they'll put the current draft charter to a referendum unless they are 115% (Need-a Poll results; Good People get extra voting power) confident that it will pass.

But then, they (NCPO/Junta) are in a difficult position. Going back for a third draft will obviously not look good for them.

Originally the Junta said there would be elections in Oct-Dec, 2015. Now, even if the August referendum passes, they need 120-250 days (various estimated by Five River spokespeople) to pass "organic" laws supporting the new Constitution, so mid-2018 for an election seems like a best case. If they draft a third version, then elections might be 2019 or 2020? Which one might cynically say was the "real" plan?

[MaxLee]

I don't think they'll put the current draft charter to a referendum unless they are 115% (Need-a Poll results; Good People get extra voting power) confident that it will pass.

But then, they (NCPO/Junta) are in a difficult position. Going back for a third draft will obviously not look good for them.

Originally the Junta said there would be elections in Oct-Dec, 2015. Now, even if the August referendum passes, they need 120-250 days (various estimated by Five River spokespeople) to pass "organic" laws supporting the new Constitution, so mid-2018 for an election seems like a best case. If they draft a third version, then elections might be 2019 or 2020? Which one might cynically say was the "real" plan?

They'll never let go,... Book it,....

[greenchair]

Thailand in my opinion, is attempting to create the greatest illusion in world history, to it's people and the international community.

The illusion that thailand is a fully democratic system, when in reality it would be fully ruled behind the scenes by a few unelected elite.

If the international community buy it," Great", business and prosperity as usual. If they "don't", even those elite better get ready for some hard times.

Of course they don't buy it, if you, i and 95% of posters here can see whats going on, i would presume foregin government offices would see that and have far more in depth knowledge of the maneoverings behind the scenes.

You are correct. then the gamble for the military is. ..

Will the international community be prepared to gamble with their dollars and turn a blind eye? ?

As I said 50/50 chance of prosperity/economic catastrophe for the elite.

Let's not forget there is a newly democratic country right next door, full of young people and young businesses, just waiting to slurp from the bowl of foreign investment that thailand might flippantly throw away.

[MZurf]

Thailand in my opinion, is attempting to create the greatest illusion in world history, to it's people and the international community.

The illusion that thailand is a fully democratic system, when in reality it would be fully ruled behind the scenes by a few unelected elite.

If the international community buy it," Great", business and prosperity as usual. If they "don't", even those elite better get ready for some hard times.

Of course they don't buy it, if you, i and 95% of posters here can see whats going on, i would presume foregin government offices would see that and have far more in depth knowledge of the maneoverings behind the scenes.

You are correct. then the gamble for the military is. ..

Will the international community be prepared to gamble with their dollars and turn a blind eye? ?

As I said 50/50 chance of prosperity/economic catastrophe for the elite.

Let's not forget there is a newly democratic country right next door, full of young people and young businesses, just waiting to slurp from the bowl of foreign investment that thailand might flippantly throw away.

I believe that the fastest way to get rid of the dinos who took power is for the international community (i.e. the West) to impose sanctions in the way of an asset freeze for the rich elite.

I think a regime change will happen soon after that.

[smutcakes]

Thailand in my opinion, is attempting to create the greatest illusion in world history, to it's people and the international community.

The illusion that thailand is a fully democratic system, when in reality it would be fully ruled behind the scenes by a few unelected elite.

If the international community buy it," Great", business and prosperity as usual. If they "don't", even those elite better get ready for some hard times.

Of course they don't buy it, if you, i and 95% of posters here can see whats going on, i would presume foregin government offices would see that and have far more in depth knowledge of the maneoverings behind the scenes.

You are correct. then the gamble for the military is. ..

Will the international community be prepared to gamble with their dollars and turn a blind eye? ?

As I said 50/50 chance of prosperity/economic catastrophe for the elite.

Let's not forget there is a newly democratic country right next door, full of young people and young businesses, just waiting to slurp from the bowl of foreign investment that thailand might flippantly throw away.

I have heard from a couple of people who normally are quite astute that they are prepared to take it a long way. You will notice over the past 6 months that CP, Singha, TCC and others have all been buying up real estate assets outside of the country in Europe and around Asia, mostly hotels and retail. It may be coincidence, that there seems to be an increasing drive to build assets outside of Thailand, whether this is just natural movement of their business, or for other reasons only time will tell.

[greenchair]

Thailand in my opinion, is attempting to create the greatest illusion in world history, to it's people and the international community.

The illusion that thailand is a fully democratic system, when in reality it would be fully ruled behind the scenes by a few unelected elite.

If the international community buy it," Great", business and prosperity as usual. If they "don't", even those elite better get ready for some hard times.

Of course they don't buy it, if you, i and 95% of posters here can see whats going on, i would presume foregin government offices would see that and have far more in depth knowledge of the maneoverings behind the scenes.

You are correct. then the gamble for the military is. ..

Will the international community be prepared to gamble with their dollars and turn a blind eye? ?

As I said 50/50 chance of prosperity/economic catastrophe for the elite.

Let's not forget there is a newly democratic country right next door, full of young people and young businesses, just waiting to slurp from the bowl of foreign investment that thailand might flippantly throw away.

I have heard from a couple of people who normally are quite astute that they are prepared to take it a long way. You will notice over the past 6 months that CP, Singha, TCC and others have all been buying up real estate assets outside of the country in Europe and around Asia, mostly hotels and retail. It may be coincidence, that there seems to be an increasing drive to build assets outside of Thailand, whether this is just natural movement of their business, or for other reasons only time will tell.

When any law can change at a moments notice with section 44. It is fast becoming difficult to know what law to follow at the moment. It possibly makes businesses feel at risk, no matter how many promises that section 44 will be used fairly. So yes, it is prudent for businesses to hedge their bets. An older tweeked constitution, with unknown additions/versus a very powerful military senate.

It makes good sense to gear up for a big change.

[Plutojames88]

Thailand has the potential to explode .

The whole games about elections and charters are totally designed to give the West some excuse to continue dealing with them.

Where the threats come are not the shrinking business confidence.

But the shrinking tolerance of the masses.

Might takes years or could happen next week

[JAG]

How old? are we going back to this?

sakdina

This article is worth linking to when mentioning Sakdina: https://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/the-last-orientals-the-thai-sakdina-system/

I knew the Thai word for Ammart and now I know the word the patronage system here. Sakdina.

Still very prevalent in Thailand today. I laugh at foreigners that think they are part of it too.

what, even those paragons of respectability whose wives all have masters degrees, and whose influential Thai friends confide in them about supporting the junta?