Sleeping problems / Lethargy - any tips or natural alternative for Melatonin?

[captainhornblower]

Have you tried Acupuncture? This is a perfectly natural way with no chemical ingestion and with the right therapist (that is obviously key) it may help solve your sleeping and energy troubles.

[gandalf12]

Climate change could have something to do with it but wont be the only reason

[WitawatWatawit]

Melatonin did nothing for me. I took it every night for a month with absolutely no effect. The only thing that helps me get drowsy is Atarax, unless I want to take Valium or Xanax which I don't want to take because they are addictive if you take them for more than a couple weeks.

Just a minor correction ... they are not addictive ... your body develops a dependency on them. Taken every day, that dependency can develop in just a few weeks, and weaning off can take a year or more of sheer hell.

Isn't that what an addictiion is, a "dependancy". Seems to me you're just playing semantics.

No. I'm not. Perhaps this website can explain it for you - better than I can. I should explain that I went through xanax withdrawal.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/principles-drug-addiction-treatment-research-based-guide-third-edition/frequently-asked-questions/there-difference-between-physical-dependence

[NancyL]

It may be that you're simply fighting your body's natural sleep cycle and going to bed too early and forcing yourself to get up too early -- perhaps because you have to go to work.

For most of my working life I thought I had an "insomnia problem" because I couldn't get to sleep when I went to bed at a "normal time" would toss and turn for several hours, then get up not refreshed. Then Hubby and I left corporate America and started our own business -- a greenhouse/nursery business that was seasonal and I was able to keep my own sleep hours during the winter months. Low and behold, I found myself staying up reading, usually novels or the newspaper in the living room (near the wood stove) until 11:30 pm - midnight until I got naturally drowsy, falling asleep in the bed in the cool bedroom within 5 - 10 minutes and sleeping until 8 am - 8:30 am, waking feeling very refreshed. I've kept the same pattern here in retirement. I find it essential to have a very cool, dark bedroom and somehow my body "knows" to wake up around 8 am. Even if I stay up late, I can't really sleep much past 8:30 am, nor can I go to sleep really before 11:30 am, even if I have to get up early the next day.

[Sheryl]

If you are as healthy as you say, and work out as hard as you claim, there would be very little reason you would need 9 hours of sleep per night..... Especially given your age. If anything, heavy workouts should give you more energy and allow you to function with less sleep.

The amount of sleep people need is highly individual and there is nothing at all abnormal in an active, fit person needing 9 hours of sleep a night, especially as he indicates this has long been his requirement.

Neither would it be abnormal for a healthy fit person to need 10 hours, nor to need only 5-6 hours. People vary. There is no set amount of sleep that is the right amount.

No reason to make an issue out of the 9 hour part, that is the OP's norm. The problem is that since moving to Thailand he has found it difficult to fall asleep.

[ChoakMyDee]

Melatonin did nothing for me. I took it every night for a month with absolutely no effect. The only thing that helps me get drowsy is Atarax, unless I want to take Valium or Xanax which I don't want to take because they are addictive if you take them for more than a couple weeks.

Just a minor correction ... they are not addictive ... your body develops a dependency on them. Taken every day, that dependency can develop in just a few weeks, and weaning off can take a year or more of sheer hell.

Isn't that what an addictiion is, a "dependancy". Seems to me you're just playing semantics.

No. I'm not. Perhaps this website can explain it for you - better than I can. I should explain that I went through xanax withdrawal.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/principles-drug-addiction-treatment-research-based-guide-third-edition/frequently-asked-questions/there-difference-between-physical-dependence

Dude, I've been addicted to many things and I can guarantee you benzos are highly addictive. I'm not interested in playing silly word games with you. OTOH, Atarax is non-addictive.

[WitawatWatawit]

Dude, you have NOT been addicted to benzos, and nor have I. For heaven's sake, your body (like mine) developed a bloody DEPENDENCY on them, not a flipping addiction. Jeez.Wake up to yourself. I spent a year recovering from benzos, yet I still say there was no addiction. Two years after quitting smoking, I still crave a smoke, but I don't crave benzos. Understand the difference?

[ChoakMyDee]

Dude, you have NOT been addicted to benzos, and nor have I. For heaven's sake, your body (like mine) developed a bloody DEPENDENCY on them, not a flipping addiction. Jeez.Wake up to yourself. I spent a year recovering from benzos, yet I still say there was no addiction. Two years after quitting smoking, I still crave a smoke, but I don't crave benzos. Understand the difference?

You have no idea what addiction is. I'm glad you don't because it is a living hell.

[inbangkok]

If you are as healthy as you say, and work out as hard as you claim, there would be very little reason you would need 9 hours of sleep per night..... Especially given your age. If anything, heavy workouts should give you more energy and allow you to function with less sleep.

The amount of sleep people need is highly individual and there is nothing at all abnormal in an active, fit person needing 9 hours of sleep a night, especially as he indicates this has long been his requirement.

Neither would it be abnormal for a healthy fit person to need 10 hours, nor to need only 5-6 hours. People vary. There is no set amount of sleep that is the right amount.

No reason to make an issue out of the 9 hour part, that is the OP's norm. The problem is that since moving to Thailand he has found it difficult to fall asleep.

What would you say to all the new studies and research coming out about how sleeping 9 or more hours a night can cause health problems and potentially shorten life span? I would say this is pretty important.

And the 9 hour part is important because it is well known that sleeping too much can cause lethargy.

[Johnniey]

People differ in their sleep requirements. I too need 9 hours, if only 8, let alone 7, I feel terrible and easily get sick. Other people need only 6-8 hours, a few people even less.

I agree with the advice to stop all caffeine by noon, and avoid computer screen/LCD lights etc for at least several hours before going to bed.

You might also find a good eye mask and ear plugs helpful - there may be ambient noises etc that you are not aware of that disturb your sleep here in Thailand which you did not have back home.

I think this has to be psychological rather than physical Sheryl. In my research I saw that only kids need 9 hours sleep.

Melatonin is the best natural supplement. For a one of Trazadone works well. I also have a plant called Soursop which is great.

[gemguy]

Hmmmm

I would recommend a 1 hour body massage every evening at a nearby massage shop and receive your "happy ending" and then head home and see how well you sleep.

That or you engage in 2 hours of sexual activity with your favorite girl or girls about 2 hours before you go to bed and see how that works.

No joking...seriously.... while all other recommendations seen before my post are also worthy of trying ...but .....my recommendations are undoubtedly the most interesting and enjoyable.......and perfectly natural ....Yes???

Cheers and sweet dreams.

[Sheryl]

I don't know what research you did, but the recommended amount of sleep, per the US National Sleep foundation, is 7-9 hours for adults, and amounts outside that range can be appropriate for some people. Sleep needs vary.

"

Objective

The objective was to conduct a scientifically rigorous update to the National Sleep Foundation’s sleep duration recommendations.

Methods

The National Sleep Foundation convened an 18-member multidisciplinary expert panel, representing 12 stakeholder organizations, to evaluate scientific literature concerning sleep duration recommendations. We determined expert recommendations for sufficient sleep durations across the lifespan using the RAND/UCLA Appropriateness Method.

Results

The panel agreed that, for healthy individuals with normal sleep, the appropriate sleep duration for newborns is between 14 and 17 hours, infants between 12 and 15 hours, toddlers between 11 and 14 hours, preschoolers between 10 and 13 hours, and school-aged children between 9 and 11 hours. For teenagers, 8 to 10 hours was considered appropriate, 7 to 9 hours for young adults and adults, and 7 to 8 hours of sleep for older adults. (older = over age 65 years).

Conclusions

Sufficient sleep duration requirements vary across the lifespan and from person to person. The recommendations reported here represent guidelines for healthy individuals and those not suffering from a sleep disorder. Sleep durations outside the recommended range may be appropriate, but deviating far from the normal range is rare.

http://www.sleephealthjournal.org/article/S2352-7218%2815%2900015-7/fulltext

There is a chart here https://sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/how-much-sleep-do-we-really-need

As you can see, while the usual requirement for an adult aged up to 64 years is 7-9, the possibly normal range runs from 6-10 years. And there are rare indivduals whose needs fall outside that range but are otherwise healthy..

All my life, I have been at the upper end of sleep requirements. Until my late forties I needed 10 hours a night. I now need 9. I'm perfectly healthy, this is just what I need, and 8 hours a night does not work for me. I once had a boyfriend who needed only 4-5 hours. That was really, truly, all he needed to be refreshed and function well. People differ.

I have a theory - just a theory, no-one AFAIK has tested it - that differences in sleep needs relate to sleep patterns and that people who need less sleep fall more quickly into deep REM sleep. I know that my deepest sleep is always in the last 3-4 hours of the 9 hour period and that my sleep is relatively light for the first 5-6 hours. I fall asleep slowly and am easily roused for the first half of the night. Whereas my BF who needed only 4-5 hours would fall instantly into a really, really deep sleep with dreams. In other words, some people may be more efficient sleepers and it may be that those at all ends of the spectrum actually need about the same amount of deep sleep, some people just take longer to fall into and come out of it than others. Just a theory.

[Hiyaall]

I'm a healthy guy in my mid 20's but experiencing quite bad sleeping problems since moving to Thailand. I eat extremely healthy, work out at the gym 4-5 times a week, don't smoke and rarely drink alcohol. I go to bed at around 10pm most nights but have some serious trouble falling asleep - it often takes me until 1am and then I wake up the next day around 8:30 feeling lethargic. This completely ruins my productivity for the day. Also from the last doctors' checkups everything is perfectly fine.

I've been drinking coffee every day since the last 7 years so I don't think this is the problem. I know my body is OK in this sense as long as I have my last one before 4pm.

I discovered Melatonin a while ago which has been a great help for falling asleep. I would take 3mg (Schiff Melatonin Ultra) around 1 hour before bed and I fall asleep very quickly. However, after using it for months I noticed that I feel like crap during the day.. sleepy and irritated, again not getting enough work done. It still works great for falling asleep though and getting a good 8-9 hours of sleep. I read that you are not supposed to take it for more than 2 weeks and the above are normal side effects.

Now I stopped using the melatonin and have serious trouble falling asleep again. Any advice? Are there some other natural alternatives to help me fall asleep?

CA poppy extract + wild lettuce extract in a warm tea. Happy ZS

[atyclb]

Insomnia can be caused by so many factors eg. sleep hygienes, environment, anxiety, stimulant intakes, pain/discomfort, hypoglycemia, and some medications and health conditions.

Sleep Hygienes

• Go to bed only when sleepy, and don’t push yourself to stay up past that sign of sleepiness.
• Avoid day-time napping.
• Only use bed for sleep (no reading, watching tv, iPad, ..except sex) to eliminate wakeful associations.
• Avoid iPhone, iPad, TV before bed, the blue light tends to suppress melatonin level.
• Your sleep environment should be dark, quiet, cool, and comfortable.
• Expose to sunlight early in the morning and late in the afternoon to encourage a strong circadian rhythm. (Melatonin is suppressed in light ad secreted in darkness)

Exercise

• Exercise regularly is good! but avoid exercise late in the evening.

Foods/Drinks

• Things that interferes sleep include coffee, caffeine (black tea, green tea, coke), alcohol, sweet and sugary stuffs.
• Move your last cup of coffee to before noon.
• Stabilize your blood sugar with a small amount of protein that is high in tryptophan eg. nuts, eggs, turkey, fish, dairy (if you are not dairy-free) before bedtime.

Anxiety

• Anxiety and tension put your body in sympathetic mode (fight or flight) which does not promote sleep.
• Try some relaxation techniques or meditation before bedtime.
• Try herbal tea that has a calming effect on your nervous system (chamomile, lemon balm, hops, catnip, lavender, passionflower, kava)

If you think you have tried everything and you still experience severe insomnia, I would suggest you to see a health care provider to have a comprehensive evaluation of your issue.

I hope you find some recommendations above to be helpful

Dr. Nicha

when i have trouble sleeping I exercise {even late at night} and it helps me sleep very well.

[jak2002003]

9 - 10 hours sleep per night every night is far too excessive.

Be warned.. men who sleep more than 8 hours a night are up to 24 percent more likely to die early!!!!!!!!

[KayCee]

I had sleep problems too though for me it was more about waking up at 2 am unable to go back to sleep readily. In end it seemed to be a combination of one physical and one psychological factor First, I had fallen into the habit of keeping my phone on my nightstand, and once I got a smartphone it was too easy to hear even muted updates or feel compelled to check for them, from friends and family on a different timezone. Some stuff was going on that was mildly concerning, but there had been an earlier crisis and I think somehow my brain just was too much on the alert and I wasn't sleeping deeply enough.

The physical was that it turned out I'd developed a vitamin D deficiency from trying to stay out of the hot sun here. Confirmed by blood tests, but once I started taking supplements as recommended by my internist, my sleep improved. Turns out Vitamin D does stuff with sleep cycles and natural melatonin or something - could be worth looking into.

If you snore a lot it may be worth checking for apnea if you're feeling tired in the morning? Or try to look into environmental things - a bad pillow, or a room too warm - all kinds of stuff can mess with your sleep quality.

Good luck! it's miserable to be tired and lethargic day after day...I hope you figure it out.

[chrisinth]

Lay off the booze and pills, including 'health supplements', reduce caffeine intake, get regular exercise daily, put yourself on a daily schedule of rising and going to bed, and eat balanced meals, would be a good starting point.

Copious amounts of Ya dong, or if you must lay off the booze Atarax available everywhere

Thanks guys but did you read the original post

I rarely drink any alcohol, maybe once a month. I exercise 4-5 times a week and eat extremely healthy; my meals consist of lean meats, brown/black rice, fresh vegetables and fruit. I always go to bed at 10-10:30 pm and wake up around 8 am.

Sounds like you are forcing yourself to go to bed at a set time regardless if you are tired or not.

Working out 4-5 times a week will have little effect on your daily sleeping patterns (unless you go to bed directly afterwards).

Go to bed when you are tired...................

[AlfonsV]

You spend too much time in bed it is crazy... normal that your body doesn't wanna sleep. Go to bed later or wake up more early. Everone needs different amounts of sleep but I really believe that too much like yours gets indeed the effect you mention.

I sleep normally 6-7 hours. Sometimes less or a bit more when I work out daily. But whenever I come over the 8 hours my whole mood is messed up and brain gets foggy.

I think it really varies between individuals, for me with 6-7 hours I feel very bad the next day, especially if it's after a very heavy workout. After a day off from the gym, I can do with a little less sleep though. 8-10 hours is recommended for bodybuilders, but I agree that oversleeping can be bad too. For me the optimal is between 8-9 hours I think. I normally use the Sleep Cycle Alarm on my phone, that measures your sleeping cycles and tries to wake you up when you are at the end of a 90min cycle so almost awake. I think it's a great app!

Do you use this app while online through wlan? There are people saying that an open wlan next your body (worse: head) works like a microwave. Is there a change in your electro-smog issue since living in TH?

[AlfonsV]

For me melatonin is unreliable - one day / night it worked, another some and again another not at all. Thus I let it be.

[golf1here]

Try this, it works for me:

http://www.medicaldaily.com/life-hack-sleep-4-7-8-breathing-exercise-will-supposedly-put-you-sleep-just-60-332122

[bubba1]

Try to have some fun. Drink a few beers, eat a pizza and hook up with a woman. Relax a little and enjoy life.

[AlfonsV]

I am a coffee drinker only since 4 years and my observation is very clear: no coffee after 2 pm (latest), better only 1 cup before noon / 1 pm.

What definitely does not help to sleep: worry about the work and troubles with my partner.

[lorbhaim]

Works for me - one spoon of Thina - Crashed full Sesame

seeds,

Haim

[LPCustom69]

Perhaps get a complete check up when you return home. Returning home may actually eliminate the problems.

[Khon Kaen Dave]

Telling my wife that she is still the most beautiful woman in the whole world,telling her that i never have,am not,and never will cheat on her and kissing her every night,.i sleep like a babe.

[WitawatWatawit]

Works for me - one spoon of Thina - Crashed full Sesame

seeds,

Haim

Ok, so I had to look that one up. Basically a variation on tahini. What I don't understand is how it can help you to get to sleep. Like to elaborate?

Nice dish, by the looks of it - I am definitely going to try it.

[Khon Kaen Dave]

2 Tiffy's do it for me

[tfc]

The "chlorpheniramine maleate" from Tiffy does it for me and is about 40-50 baht for 100 pills. Antihistamines also knock me out. These aren't long-term solutions for me though and I usually only use them when I really need to sleep or "reset" my "body clock" due to travel etc and if I can't get/don't have melatonin.

Something else that works for me is some sort of white noise track listened through my ipod. I'm out in 5 minutes.

[atyclb]

Dude, you have NOT been addicted to benzos, and nor have I. For heaven's sake, your body (like mine) developed a bloody DEPENDENCY on them, not a flipping addiction. Jeez.Wake up to yourself. I spent a year recovering from benzos, yet I still say there was no addiction. Two years after quitting smoking, I still crave a smoke, but I don't crave benzos. Understand the difference?

many a recovering alcoholic (sober) do not have cravings for alcohol. does that mean they were not addicted to alcohol just dependant? if dependant means need it and without it dont feel well than what is addiction?

Well-Known Mechanism Underlies Benzodiazepines' Addictive Properties

https://www.drugabuse.gov/news-events/nida-notes/2012/04/well-known-mechanism-underlies-benzodiazepines-addictive-properties

[atyclb]

i posted a reply to dr nichas post but it seems there is no followup on this. unusual since medical professionals learn f/u is very important. the topic is important enough to post about but not to follow up on?