British grandad locked up in Thailand claims he was beaten, robbed and sexually abused in jail

[justaphase]

My thoughts also, the picture is incomplete.

On the jail issue: I don't know if the rules are different elsewhere in Thailand but here in Chiang Mai, about seven years ago, a Brit we know was given 5 years in jail and he was housed strictly with foreigners and not with locals and all foreigners were treated similarly.

From what I have heard and been told foreigners are kept separate from the locals in jail. I have, thankfully, no personal experience so I cant speak authoritatively but that is my understanding. The BBC Panorama had a program on it a few years back and that was stated in that program as well

All Thai jails now put foreigners together with Thais. When only foreigners were together in one cell they had a bad habit of fighting with each other, so to stop that problem foreigners are in with the Thais these days. It also makes sure that all foreigners obey the cell rules, up and out at around 7.30 am, and absolute no talking, walking etc after 9 pm. Thai prisoners are made to encourage foreigners to obey the rules, so disobey a room leader and the offending foreigner will receive a beating from his fellow Thai cellmates.

I'm sure you may believe that but the evidence thus far is that foreigners and Thai's are segregated, do you have any proof of what you say?

Where i was there was no segregation. All in together. Thais, Ferrang, African, Indos, Laos, Burmese and Cambodians.

Edited May 3, 2016 by justaphase

[andygrr]

As quoted in the post "Driving at night, Dave said he collided with another bike, which didn’t have its lights on, carrying three people who weren’t wearing helmets - a French man and woman and a local" If the French chap wants to lay blame he should take a look in the mirror. Anybody on a motorbike without a helmet or lets a loved one do it is crazy especially in Thailand. It sickens me every day when I see an adult wearing a helmet carrying a multitude of kids on the bike without any protection as if their life is more important than the kids.

[Koosdedooes]

As quoted in the post "Driving at night, Dave said he collided with another bike, which didnt have its lights on, carrying three people who werent wearing helmets - a French man and woman and a local" If the French chap wants to lay blame he should take a look in the mirror. Anybody on a motorbike without a helmet or lets a loved one do it is crazy especially in Thailand. It sickens me every day when I see an adult wearing a helmet carrying a multitude of kids on the bike without any protection as if their life is more important than the kids.

Seen this thing carrying kids on bike many times and certainly around Pattaya you see large numbers of old farangs in control of the bikes with their "teeraks" and a sprog or two sandwiched in between them

[cat handler]

First, serves him right he should have been able to access 100,000 baht and got bail immediately, secondly I don't believe his story one bit he killed someone and is trying to blame them e.g no lights on a bike when they are hard wired to the ignition and they had no helmets, it doesn't mitigate his responsibility in their deaths if it's his riding at fault.

"e.g no lights on a bike when they are hard wired to the ignition "

Apparently, you've just arrived here. I cannot count how many times I see bikes with no working tail lights. Often, there are no working headlights either, though, sometimes, the drivers will get one of those flashlights that strap on the head. Often also, I see a bike with no tail light and the head light is so dim that you cannot see it except in your rear view mirror -- it doesn't even make a bright spot on the road. Then there's my favorite, the guy with no tail light and so much stuff in his front basket that the headlight is completely blocked and pointless. Seriously, have you spent a single day in Thailand?

Oh, and yes, not wearing helmets absolutely does mitigate his fault. There is a reason for helmet laws - helmets reduce the severity of injuries and the likelihood of death from an accident. A person of reasonable prudence would not go without a helmet. This is one of the very scenarios that we discussed in one of my law school classes when we covered the mitigation doctrines in torts.

I think you may be eating your time in "law school", there are precidences where cars have ran red lights and collided with another car in which the victims died but weren't wearing seat belts and the driver of the first car has charged and convicted of causing their deaths. A seat belt as you may be aware is also a safety feature of a road vehicle like a helmet.

[thaibeachlovers]

This is a farang vs. farang story. The accused is alleged to have run into a motorbike driven by a Frenchman. The collision injured a french woman who was on the bike and she allegedly died from his injuries some time after the collision.

While a reckless mad Thai drivers who kills scores of people aren't being arrested and given

the proper hospital treatment, here we have a repeat of the Midnight express movie treatment

mentality being played all over again in modern Thailand for a single motorcycle road fatality.......

Are you aware that the deceased's partner is pushing the case? He wants action and asked the Thai police to pursue the accused.

If your loved one was killed in a moor crash, would you not pursue justice?

We need to remember we are not equal here , its not good old England.

What does that have to do with the circumstances of the death? The man is accused of killing a French woman. Seems to me that you have discounted the French woman's tragic death.

Something does not add up. According to the newspaper the police knew nothing about it till he went to report to the police voluntarily. If he ( and she ) was that badly injured the police would have been involved. They were for my much less serious accident. If she died of injuries in France how could she travel if that badly injured?

Also, the other driver was also guilty of causing an accident- was there a court case for ?him ( was it the Frenchman? ). Lot of information missing.

[D3030]

First, serves him right he should have been able to access 100,000 baht and got bail immediately, secondly I don't believe his story one bit he killed someone and is trying to blame them e.g no lights on a bike when they are hard wired to the ignition and they had no helmets, it doesn't mitigate his responsibility in their deaths if it's his riding at fault.

"e.g no lights on a bike when they are hard wired to the ignition "

Apparently, you've just arrived here. I cannot count how many times I see bikes with no working tail lights. Often, there are no working headlights either, though, sometimes, the drivers will get one of those flashlights that strap on the head. Often also, I see a bike with no tail light and the head light is so dim that you cannot see it except in your rear view mirror -- it doesn't even make a bright spot on the road. Then there's my favorite, the guy with no tail light and so much stuff in his front basket that the headlight is completely blocked and pointless. Seriously, have you spent a single day in Thailand?

Oh, and yes, not wearing helmets absolutely does mitigate his fault. There is a reason for helmet laws - helmets reduce the severity of injuries and the likelihood of death from an accident. A person of reasonable prudence would not go without a helmet. This is one of the very scenarios that we discussed in one of my law school classes when we covered the mitigation doctrines in torts.

I think you may be eating your time in "law school", there are precidences where cars have ran red lights and collided with another car in which the victims died but weren't wearing seat belts and the driver of the first car has charged and convicted of causing their deaths. A seat belt as you may be aware is also a safety feature of a road vehicle like a helmet.

Is Ajahnski serious??

Is he really trying to imply, as long as the dead victim was not wearing a helmet, it's there fault they died and not Dan's??

Ridiculous if he is..

[D3030]

This is a farang vs. farang story. The accused is alleged to have run into a motorbike driven by a Frenchman. The collision injured a french woman who was on the bike and she allegedly died from his injuries some time after the collision.

While a reckless mad Thai drivers who kills scores of people aren't being arrested and given

the proper hospital treatment, here we have a repeat of the Midnight express movie treatment

mentality being played all over again in modern Thailand for a single motorcycle road fatality.......

Are you aware that the deceased's partner is pushing the case? He wants action and asked the Thai police to pursue the accused.

If your loved one was killed in a moor crash, would you not pursue justice?

We need to remember we are not equal here , its not good old England.

What does that have to do with the circumstances of the death? The man is accused of killing a French woman. Seems to me that you have discounted the French woman's tragic death.

Something does not add up. According to the newspaper the police knew nothing about it till he went to report to the police voluntarily. If he ( and she ) was that badly injured the police would have been involved. They were for my much less serious accident. If she died of injuries in France how could she travel if that badly injured?

Also, the other driver was also guilty of causing an accident- was there a court case for ?him ( was it the Frenchman? ). Lot of information missing.

Does seem like much info is missing..

But "Dan Said" is the problem..

"Dan said" the police had no record of the accident, but was arrested soon after and spent 3 weeks in jail for not being able to post bail..

Once released, then he was informed of the manslaughter charges, but has remained free..

This nonsense of where she died, has nothing to do with the cause of her death, which was Dan, b'cuz he said he crashed into them.. Of course, unless she died of something completely unrelated to the accident.

Then Dan hears about the tourist getting the world's sympathy for getting kicked in the face..

Then he goes out with he was "Beaten, Robbed, Sexually Abused story...

16 months after it claims it his happened..

Coincidental?

[BWPattaya]

I do not believe 1 word of this.

I have been in a Thai prison, and i was treated with the greatest of respect.

Staff and prisoners went out of their way to help me.

He did wrong and is trying to disguise what he did with lies.

My friend was in Nong Pa Lai for four weeks. The Thai inmates gave him clothes, shoes. food and drink. The prison governer himself took him to a medical facility in the prison to have some sores treated. The prison officers never assaulted and treated him OK.

[mike324]

Thai laws are only enforced on foreigners....

[Moonmoon]

how can he be charged for manslaughter when RICH KIDS IN THIS COUNTRY DRIVE DRUNK UNDERAGE AND HAS KILLED MORE THAN THIS MAN N R STILL SCOT FREE?????????

[khundon]

I don't know what the true situation is with this bloke but the fact is any foreigner who drives or rides without some sort of insurance in Thailand is a moron!

I agree.

Being a Grandad, does not mean he does not need to be insured. What has his age got to do with it!

[ScotBkk]

I don't know what the true situation is with this bloke but the fact is any foreigner who drives or rides without some sort of insurance in Thailand is a moron!

I agree.

Being a Grandad, does not mean he does not need to be insured. What has his age got to do with it!

Everyone loves Grandad and can't put a foot wrong - even on the accelerator!!

[DerringDo]

Money IS used in many Thai jails.

No, it is not. There would be no point.

All money, together with any other personal possessions, is taken from prisoners on their registration at the prison. It is held by the prison in an account in the prisoner's name to which additional money can be added by outsiders and any purchasing within the prison is debited from that prisoner's account. On release any funds in that account are returned to the prisoner down to the last baht.

There are no facilities at all in Thai jails that use cash.

Thank you for clearing up how money is used in Thai jails.

[MaiChai]

My Thai wife says she is glad we dont live in Thailand because she knows she could not protect me from some of the terrible things that go on. Having been involve in a legal case in Thailand, and having some experience of what can happen, i can say you cannot expect justice. I have no plans or wish to retire in Thailand. Thats probably as much as i want to say.

Regarding the story i can believe the guy was mistreated even if bits of the story may be missing. I would give him the benefit of the doubt.

[chiang mai]

Thai laws are only enforced on foreigners....

Which is why Thai jails are full of Thai's they go there voluntary........say what!

[mike324]

I do not believe 1 word of this.

I have been in a Thai prison, and i was treated with the greatest of respect.

Staff and prisoners went out of their way to help me.

He did wrong and is trying to disguise what he did with lies.

My friend was in Nong Pa Lai for four weeks. The Thai inmates gave him clothes, shoes. food and drink. The prison governer himself took him to a medical facility in the prison to have some sores treated. The prison officers never assaulted and treated him OK.

I have a friend in Klong Prem prison, he says its not bad in terms of people getting beat up or harrassed. Worse thing is the place being unsanitary and smelly. People generally mind their own business, he's been there for the past 3 years, never seen any problems in his section. In another section, some Thais had an altercations with each other and a guy got stabbed. On special occasions / holidays, some embassy will bring in food for the prisoners.

You can pay the guards off monthly so they won't be strict with you regarding to timing of stuff or allowing things in the room. But since the military came to power, he said it has been very strict as most rules are followed closely.

The cell he sleeps in has like 30-40 people in one cell, sleeping is tight, bathrooms at the back with no doors, you can hear people pee / poo / even jack off at the back

You can buy anything in jail - phones, mp3 player, etc Iphone cost well over 1 million - if you are caught with one, they put you in solitary confinement

[mike324]

Thai laws are only enforced on foreigners....

Which is why Thai jails are full of Thai's they go there voluntary........say what!

well what I meant is....sentences for Thais are generally more lenient compare to sentences for westerners. For Thais if you confess, they automatically half the sentence, that does not apply to westerners - they pretty much apply the full sentencing and make westerners wait for amnesty give yearly to cut their sentencing in half.

[Koosdedooes]

Thai laws are only enforced on foreigners....

Which is why Thai jails are full of Thai's they go there voluntary........say what!

well what I meant is....sentences for Thais are generally more lenient compare to sentences for westerners. For Thais if you confess, they automatically half the sentence, that does not apply to westerners - they pretty much apply the full sentencing and make westerners wait for amnesty give yearly to cut their sentencing in half.

Absolute rubbish..go and look up the case of Oliver Jufer....for what you say doesnt apply...does apply...

[mike324]

Thai laws are only enforced on foreigners....

Which is why Thai jails are full of Thai's they go there voluntary........say what!

well what I meant is....sentences for Thais are generally more lenient compare to sentences for westerners. For Thais if you confess, they automatically half the sentence, that does not apply to westerners - they pretty much apply the full sentencing and make westerners wait for amnesty give yearly to cut their sentencing in half.

Absolute rubbish..go and look up the case of Oliver Jufer....for what you say doesnt apply...does apply...

Cases like Oliver Jufer are special examples ...how many Thais have been royally pardon compare to foreigners in regards to les majeste cases?

Now focus back on crimes like murder, drug dealing, etc

[Tomtomtom69]

We need to remember we are not equal here , its not good old England.

Ah yes, England. That good 'ol land where the capital city is now home to more foreigners than white Britons. The country where Muslims have more rights than the native population. The country where any "marginalized minority" has more rights than the native white Brit. The country where a civil war will erupt in the next couple of decades as local Brits tired of being discriminated against in their own country will finally stand up and rise up against the insanity that has been going on for the last few decades.

I think I'd rather go for Thailand, a country where, if you have motor vehicle insurance it will pay for any damages and hospital expenses. A country where if you have money you can pay compensation and avoid jail altogether. And no, there is no anti-foreigner bias - it's an anti-poor bias.

[Tomtomtom69]

I think this account holds some truth to it. In prison, inmates run what happens inside and guards only watch and, as in this case, the guards perhaps are as evil as the inmates.. What bother me so about this is that this guy is probably in jail just because he is a foreigner. I have read so many instances where death has occurred due to negligent driving yet, the Thai never seems to go to prison for it. A good example is this recent case where the guy drove 200 kph and crashed into the back of a car killing to students. I don't see him even looking at a charge for their deaths, only his bad driving. Pathetic to see double standards across the board with foreigners and Thai.

The difference between the two cases is that the Merc. driver had money and paid his way out (or at least his insurance company did), the Brit doesn't seem to be able to raise 100k Baht and apparently didn't have insurance otherwise he would have been able to post a bail bond.

Have you ever heard the saying 'two wrongs don't make a right' This guy killed someone, are you saying he doesn't deserve to be punished because a Thai person would have gotten away with it ?

Also are we expected to believe most inmates in Thai jails an non Thai.

No, I'm saying he wouldn't be in jail if he had insurance, the insurance company would have posted his bail bond - the Merc driver either did have insurance or he paid his own bail. So the fact that he is in jail led to his alleged poor treatment there, as others have pointed out those claims seem odd at best. Nothing to do with him being guilty or not etc.

According to the Thai news, the merc driver DID spend some time in jail. For at least around 2 weeks from what I've heard. Maybe he is out now, didn't follow up on the story other than a news update that mentioned the police's plans to charge him with up to 8 different offences.

[connda]

I think this account holds some truth to it. In prison, inmates run what happens inside and guards only watch and, as in this case, the guards perhaps are as evil as the inmates.. What bother me so about this is that this guy is probably in jail just because he is a foreigner. I have read so many instances where death has occurred due to negligent driving yet, the Thai never seems to go to prison for it. A good example is this recent case where the guy drove 200 kph and crashed into the back of a car killing to students. I don't see him even looking at a charge for their deaths, only his bad driving. Pathetic to see double standards across the board with foreigners and Thai.

The difference between the two cases is that the Merc. driver had money and paid his way out (or at least his insurance company did), the Brit doesn't seem to be able to raise 100k Baht and apparently didn't have insurance otherwise he would have been able to post a bail bond.

Which is a good recommendation to all foreigners to carry 3rd class insurance on your vehicles that includes at least 200K a bails bond rider. If you're renting, vet the rental agency's insurance coverage prior to driving. There is an object lesson here. And remember that the rich can buy justice.

[Koosdedooes]

Thai laws are only enforced on foreigners....

Which is why Thai jails are full of Thai's they go there voluntary........say what!

well what I meant is....sentences for Thais are generally more lenient compare to sentences for westerners. For Thais if you confess, they automatically half the sentence, that does not apply to westerners - they pretty much apply the full sentencing and make westerners wait for amnesty give yearly to cut their sentencing in half.

Absolute rubbish..go and look up the case of Oliver Jufer....for what you say doesnt apply...does apply...

Cases like Oliver Jufer are special examples ...how many Thais have been royally pardon compare to foreigners in regards to les majeste cases?

Now focus back on crimes like murder, drug dealing, etc

You really need to go back and read what you wrote...you stated...this does not apply to westerners, Oliver Jufer was sentenced to 20 years which reduced by the court to 10 years, on confession nothing to do with "special cases" or royal pardons

You made a statement of "fact" which was shown to be factually wrong

[thesetat2013]

I think this account holds some truth to it. In prison, inmates run what happens inside and guards only watch and, as in this case, the guards perhaps are as evil as the inmates.. What bother me so about this is that this guy is probably in jail just because he is a foreigner. I have read so many instances where death has occurred due to negligent driving yet, the Thai never seems to go to prison for it. A good example is this recent case where the guy drove 200 kph and crashed into the back of a car killing to students. I don't see him even looking at a charge for their deaths, only his bad driving. Pathetic to see double standards across the board with foreigners and Thai.

The difference between the two cases is that the Merc. driver had money and paid his way out (or at least his insurance company did), the Brit doesn't seem to be able to raise 100k Baht and apparently didn't have insurance otherwise he would have been able to post a bail bond.

Which is a good recommendation to all foreigners to carry 3rd class insurance on your vehicles that includes at least 200K a bails bond rider. If you're renting, vet the rental agency's insurance coverage prior to driving. There is an object lesson here. And remember that the rich can buy justice.

That can work both ways though.. If one should have an accident with a rich members family, I am certain the foreigners guilt could be just as easily bought as a Thai rich man's innocence

[Nicolas32]

This is like a condom advert

Edited May 4, 2016 by Nicolas32

[hawker9000]

I'd expect that's the kind of thing that happens in thai jail.

There has to be a deterrent do most of the population other than just the term of the sentence.

I suspect the suicide/ murder rate especially somewhere like Bang Kwang a lot higher than will ever be publically known.

When people scream foul of a light sentence given to some crimes, I think the Thais know even a 5 year sentence can actually be a death sentence

Some people just lurk, waiting for an apologist opportunity to present itself. Well, no argument that conditions in a Thai prison are brutally & inhumanely harsh, but those screaming foul are generally doing so not because of "light" jail sentences, but because of no jail sentences at all, or no time actually served, particularly where victims who are foreigners are concerned... And one does suspect much that isn't publicly reported, but also that social standing keeps many out of prison that actually belong there.

In cases like this one, you'd think some agreement could be worked out at the Embassy level where the home country would guarantee the time to be served in its own prisons in return for repatriation of the prisoner. Then again, even imprisonment costs lots of money, and I very much doubt Thailand would have any interest in reimbursing the home country.

[stevenl]

Thai laws are only enforced on foreigners....

Which is why Thai jails are full of Thai's they go there voluntary........say what!

well what I meant is....sentences for Thais are generally more lenient compare to sentences for westerners. For Thais if you confess, they automatically half the sentence, that does not apply to westerners - they pretty much apply the full sentencing and make westerners wait for amnesty give yearly to cut their sentencing in half.

Absolute rubbish..go and look up the case of Oliver Jufer....for what you say doesnt apply...does apply...

Cases like Oliver Jufer are special examples ...how many Thais have been royally pardon compare to foreigners in regards to les majeste cases?

Now focus back on crimes like murder, drug dealing, etc

They, Chiang mai and koos, are correct. Sentenced for foreigners and Thais are halved. And sentences in Thailand are high, with some well known exceptions where people seem to escape justice.

[mike324]

 

Thai laws are only enforced on foreigners....

Which is why Thai jails are full of Thai's they go there voluntary........say what!

well what I meant is....sentences for Thais are generally more lenient compare to sentences for westerners. For Thais if you confess, they automatically half the sentence, that does not apply to westerners - they pretty much apply the full sentencing and make westerners wait for amnesty give yearly to cut their sentencing in half.

Absolute rubbish..go and look up the case of Oliver Jufer....for what you say doesnt apply...does apply...

Cases like Oliver Jufer are special examples ...how many Thais have been royally pardon compare to foreigners in regards to les majeste cases?

Now focus back on crimes like murder, drug dealing, etc

They, Chiang mai and koos, are correct. Sentenced for foreigners and Thais are halved. And sentences in Thailand are high, with some well known exceptions where people seem to escape justice.

 

My bad I take that back. What I was saying the initial sentences given out by the judge before the confession is longer for foreigners compare to thais. You can see it mostly from drug and fraud cases. Yes once you confess, the judge halve the sentencing for everyone.

chiangmai's comment is silly - its Thailand, why wouldn't there be more Thais compare to foreigners

koos comment really falls under special case where foreigners are usually deported. Oliver was the first foreigner to serve a jail term under Les Majeste before being pardon and deported after couple weeks in jail.

[thaiduncankk]

My thoughts also, the picture is incomplete.

On the jail issue: I don't know if the rules are different elsewhere in Thailand but here in Chiang Mai, about seven years ago, a Brit we know was given 5 years in jail and he was housed strictly with foreigners and not with locals and all foreigners were treated similarly.

You are comparing someone who has been convicted of a crime, with someone who has not, completely different circumstances.

If this bloke does get convicted, and sentenced accordingly, he will probably have the same conditions as your Chiang Mai man.

[thaiduncankk]

I think this account holds some truth to it. In prison, inmates run what happens inside and guards only watch and, as in this case, the guards perhaps are as evil as the inmates.. What bother me so about this is that this guy is probably in jail just because he is a foreigner. I have read so many instances where death has occurred due to negligent driving yet, the Thai never seems to go to prison for it. A good example is this recent case where the guy drove 200 kph and crashed into the back of a car killing to students. I don't see him even looking at a charge for their deaths, only his bad driving. Pathetic to see double standards across the board with foreigners and Thai.

Foreigners who live here should integrate more then they would know the way to avoid jail.

Complain about double standards. Do you speak fluent Thai? Do you know the way the system works? I do but to be fair, I've been here most my life.

Coming to live in a country, associating only with other foreigners, not giving a **** about learning the language etc and you deserve to be treated like 2nd class citizens as that is what you are.

Speaking fluent Thai regarding the legal system ? I very much doubt it.