The ultimate purpose of Buddhist-style meditation practices

[VincentRJ]

I express an opinion and get attacked for it. Is this a private argument thread between certain long-standing members... and everyone else butt out?

I wasn't attacking you. I was expressing my honest opinion about your opinion, which I think is not based upon reliable evidence. In other words, I was attacking your opinion.

I also implied that I thought your opinion that humans were genetically engineered by aliens rather than a product of natural evolution from some ape-like creature, is nonsense. However, as a result of my great sense of Buddhist compassion, I agreed that you have a right to believe in such nonsense, provided you don't harm others. What's wrong with that?

The DNA evidence that we evolved from an ape-like, distant ancestor is very strong. As I understand, bout 98% of our DNA encoding appears to be identical to that of a chimpanzee.

An example of an ad hominem attack can be found in the previous post from Tuskegeeben, who accuses me of being a boring bloke. When a person fails to refute an opposing argument, but cannot admit to himself that he has failed, he sometimes resorts to the ad hominem attack in order to save face, thus demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of basic Buddhist principles, of course.

In my posts I always address the argument.

[camerata]

I think we've had enough acrimony in this thread. Let's be civil and stick to the topic from now on.

From my reading of the Pali Canon and other literatuere, it's pretty obvious that the purpose of Buddhist meditation and ethics is the eradication of dukkha in this life. Everyone experiences dukkha.

[VincentRJ]

From my reading of the Pali Canon and other literatuere, it's pretty obvious that the purpose of Buddhist meditation and ethics is the eradication of dukkha in this life. Everyone experiences dukkha.

It's pretty obvious to me also, however the title of the topic is 'ultimate purpose', implying that there might be a greater significance than the mere eradication of suffering in this life. This is where concepts such as reincarnation and 'escape from the Wheel of Life' come into play.

If the only purpose of Buddhism is the eradication of discomfort and unsatisfactoriness in this life, then perhaps the religion is reduced to the status of an alternative medicine. If some time in the future, modern science were to devise a very effective pain-killing drug (like opium) that was not addictive and which had no harmful side effects, would the religion of Buddhism then become redundant?

[Brucenkhamen]

If some time in the future, modern science were to devise a very effective pain-killing drug (like opium) that was not addictive and which had no harmful side effects, would the religion of Buddhism then become redundant?

Yeah sure, just like morphine makes chemotherapy redundant. The point of Buddhism is to eradicate the causes of suffering not mask the symptoms.

[camerata]

Dukkha is not just pain. A perfect pain-killer is not going to help if you catch your wife banging the milkman, for example. Even if your perfect drug also had the effect of 50mg of Valium, you wouldn't be free of dukkha, and you would be a near-zombie. You'd be a slave to the drug. The Buddha's teachings are about freedom, not slavery.

[VincentRJ]

Dukkha is not just pain. A perfect pain-killer is not going to help if you catch your wife banging the milkman, for example.

I think a perfect pain-killer could help to some degree in those circumstances. Perhaps it could not be the complete solution, but I'm not aware that Buddhist scriptures provide a complete solution either, for married people to eradicate all suffering. Isn't it necessary to abstain from sexual relations in order to avoid all suffering?

Even if your perfect drug also had the effect of 50mg of Valium, you wouldn't be free of dukkha, and you would be a near-zombie. You'd be a slave to the drug. The Buddha's teachings are about freedom, not slavery.

Well that certainly doesn't sound like the sort of 'perfect' drug I'm referring to. That sounds more like the current illicit drugs that some people get addicted to. The perfect drug I had in mind would be one that targeted specific areas of activity in the brain in order to dissolve feelings of anger, hatred, revenge and so on.

Isn't it also the case that nothing is permanent, and that human emotions of both joy and anger or unsatisfactoriness, in particular, are impermanent or transient. Having dissolved a particular incidence of anger, by use of a well-designed, non-addictive drug, I don't believe it would be necessary to continue taking the drug for the rest of one's life, just as it's not necessary to keep taking the anti-inflammatory pain-killer, Ibuprofen, once the particular incidence of pain has disappeared or the inflammatory cause eradicated.

[camerata]

The particular example of dukkha isn't important. It was just a random example of mental anguish that doesn't involve physical pain, to show that your pain-killer wouldn't eradicate dukkha. I mentioned Valium because that at least aims to dampen emotional responses rather than pain, but for the reason Bruce gives above, a nirvana pill simply isn't possible.

Your last analogy doesn't work because the monkey mind is the brain's natural state. If you nuke the defilements they will simply return. They have to be deprogrammed. It's like meditation - you can rid yourself of defilements for a short time and then they come crashing back because the mental processes involved have been suppressed rather than changed. At least, that's my supposition.

[Brucenkhamen]

Isn't it also the case that nothing is permanent, and that human emotions of both joy and anger or unsatisfactoriness, in particular, are impermanent or transient. Having dissolved a particular incidence of anger, by use of a well-designed, non-addictive drug, I don't believe it would be necessary to continue taking the drug for the rest of one's life, just as it's not necessary to keep taking the anti-inflammatory pain-killer, Ibuprofen, once the particular incidence of pain has disappeared or the inflammatory cause eradicated.

So not only will your imaginary perfect drug cure suffering it will do it permanently because suffering is impermanent anyway? That's Marvellous, if you can bottle and sell it you'll be an imaginary millionaire.

[VincentRJ]

The particular example of dukkha isn't important. It was just a random example of mental anguish that doesn't involve physical pain, to show that your pain-killer wouldn't eradicate dukkha. I mentioned Valium because that at least aims to dampen emotional responses rather than pain, but for the reason Bruce gives above, a nirvana pill simply isn't possible.

Whereas the 'real' state of Nirvana is possible for the ordinary person who might otherwise rely upon a variety of drugs to fix his various problems? Is that what you are saying?

The impression I get from my readings on Buddhism and comments on forums such as this, is that reaching a state of Nirvana in this life could at the very least involve many hours and years of dedicated practice, and for many people who are not able to fully dedicate themselves to the task, the achievement of the state of Nirvana might be even more improbable than the creation of a nirvana-like pill designed by groups of highly professional chemists, neurologists and biologists.

Pain of whatever description, occurs for a reason, and that reason is to inform the mind that something is wrong. If the pain is of a general 'unsatisfactory' nature, it's still occurring for a reason. There might be multiple reasons, which is often the case when the suffering is just a general sense of unsatisfactoriness.

One might, for example, be dissatisfied because one feels one is in the wrong profession, or because one feels one is wasting one's life engaging in boring activities. Again, the intelligent person might consider changing his job to a more satisfying activity, even if that perhaps results in a lower income.

If a person were unable to find a more satisfying job, had a family to support, a mortgage and other debts to pay, and felt stuck in a miserable situation, angry every morning at the prospect of yet another day in his boring job, some sort of 'happy pill' of the future, as science progresses, might enable a calming of the mind without side effects and addiction. This might enable the dissatisfied person to spend the many hours, which he might otherwise have spent trying to reach Nirvana, studying useful and satisfying subjects which would enable the person to eradicate at some level the basic cause of his dissatisfaction, by acquiring a satisfying job which also paid the bills.

However, please don't jump to the conclusion that I am trying to dismiss the benefits of meditation. There are obvious, practical benefits resulting from a calming of the mind which might facilitate a clearer insight into the causes of one's dissatisfaction. I'm not questioning those practical benefits, but the ultimate purpose.

[nongai]

There are four steps (or eight if you include the Path as well as Fruit) to attaining Nibbana. Since one must progress through those steps, forget about Arahant which is the ultimate but distant goal, and go for Sotapanna. Much more attainable, and gves the safety from rebirth in the four lower realms and guarantees Arahant within a maximum of seven more lives.

[camerata]

Whereas the 'real' state of Nirvana is possible for the ordinary person who might otherwise rely upon a variety of drugs to fix his various problems? Is that what you are saying?

The benefits of practising the Dhamma aren't an all-or-nothing deal. The more you practise - and you do have to practise, not just talk about it - the more benefits you get. You don't have to attain nibbana. You don't even have to attain sotapanna. It's more like a sliding scale than an on-off switch. No drugs required.

[VincentRJ]

Whereas the 'real' state of Nirvana is possible for the ordinary person who might otherwise rely upon a variety of drugs to fix his various problems? Is that what you are saying?

The benefits of practising the Dhamma aren't an all-or-nothing deal. The more you practise - and you do have to practise, not just talk about it - the more benefits you get.

Absolutely! But doesn't the same apply to any activity or project in life, whether playing cricket or football, or studying a highly specialized branch of science in the hope of making a break-through in our understanding of a particular process? Progress is always slow. Talking about it helps of course.

You don't have to attain nibbana. You don't even have to attain sotapanna. It's more like a sliding scale than an on-off switch. No drugs required.

True again, although sometimes drugs are required, and taking them can result in a longer life, giving one more opportunity to progress towards the state of Nirvana in this life, if that's one's goal, or making a break-through in our scientific understanding of a particular process for the future benefit of humanity, if that's one's goal.

I wonder how many practicing monks in Thailand have had their life saved through the administration of drugs in hospital at some stage of their life. I imagine there are also monks who cannot have just the one meal a day as recommended in the teachings, because they are on drugs that are required to be taken 3 or 4 times a day with food.

[camerata]

But your question above was about whether a pain-killer could make Buddhism redundant - replicate nibbana - not about whether drugs can help cure disease in general. Given that the benefits of Buddhism come after progressive training (i.e. deprogramming) of the mind, it's difficult to see how any drug could do the job.

Ehipassiko!

[VincentRJ]

But your question above was about whether a pain-killer could make Buddhism redundant - replicate nibbana - not about whether drugs can help cure disease in general. Given that the benefits of Buddhism come after progressive training (i.e. deprogramming) of the mind, it's difficult to see how any drug could do the job.

I was using the term 'pain-killer' in a general way, just as the word 'dukkha' is used to describe suffering in a general way.

There are a number of different types of medications generally referred to as anti-anxiety drugs, which target specific areas of the brain to reduce discomfort or dis-ease, as you put it. I've included this range of drugs in the general 'pain-killer' category.

At one end of the spectrum we have very powerful pain-killers, referred to as anesthetics, which are of course considered necessary for most surgical procedures. At the other end of the spectrum we have anti-depressant and anti-anxiety drugs which perhaps appear to mimic the effects of hours and years of Buddhist meditation.

However, as you have probably gathered, I tend to favour natural remedies for all types of unsatisfactoriness, which is why I'm interested in Buddhism.

Nevertheless, my monkey brain does tend to wonder (not wander) if Gautama would have embarked upon his search for the 'end to all suffering' if his society in India, 2,500 years ago, had been blessed with all the drugs, pain-killers and medical treatments that are available today.

Ehipassiko!

I do, I do, especially after a glass of wine.

[trd]

There are four steps (or eight if you include the Path as well as Fruit) to attaining Nibbana. Since one must progress through those steps, forget about Arahant which is the ultimate but distant goal, and go for Sotapanna. Much more attainable, and gves the safety from rebirth in the four lower realms and guarantees Arahant within a maximum of seven more lives.

The eightfold path is nonsense as it is generally understood. There are no steps to progress through. How is it possible to practice right speech, right action, right thinking etc. It isn't. I don't believe Buddha advocated such a practice. It has obviously been misunderstood by those who wrote it down after his passing. But it has been passed down as the truth unfortunately. Right action of all kinds is an automatic outcome of realising that awareness alone is and that is what your true nature is. That is the true expression of the eightfold path.

[rockyysdt]

There are four steps (or eight if you include the Path as well as Fruit) to attaining Nibbana. Since one must progress through those steps, forget about Arahant which is the ultimate but distant goal, and go for Sotapanna. Much more attainable, and gves the safety from rebirth in the four lower realms and guarantees Arahant within a maximum of seven more lives.

The eightfold path is nonsense as it is generally understood. There are no steps to progress through. How is it possible to practice right speech, right action, right thinking etc. It isn't. I don't believe Buddha advocated such a practice. It has obviously been misunderstood by those who wrote it down after his passing. But it has been passed down as the truth unfortunately. Right action of all kinds is an automatic outcome of realising that awareness alone is and that is what your true nature is. That is the true expression of the eightfold path.

Would you subscribe to the 16 steps of Anapanasiti?

[trd]

There are four steps (or eight if you include the Path as well as Fruit) to attaining Nibbana. Since one must progress through those steps, forget about Arahant which is the ultimate but distant goal, and go for Sotapanna. Much more attainable, and gves the safety from rebirth in the four lower realms and guarantees Arahant within a maximum of seven more lives.

The eightfold path is nonsense as it is generally understood. There are no steps to progress through. How is it possible to practice right speech, right action, right thinking etc. It isn't. I don't believe Buddha advocated such a practice. It has obviously been misunderstood by those who wrote it down after his passing. But it has been passed down as the truth unfortunately. Right action of all kinds is an automatic outcome of realising that awareness alone is and that is what your true nature is. That is the true expression of the eightfold path.

Would you subscribe to the 16 steps of Anapanasiti?

There are no steps of anything.

[trd]

I just familiarised myself with these 16 steps. It's ridiculous.

[rockyysdt]

I just familiarised myself with these 16 steps. It's ridiculous.

Interested to learn why?

[trd]

I just familiarised myself with these 16 steps. It's ridiculous.

Interested to learn why?

it's overly and unnecessarily complicated that's why. Have you ever read anything by Maha Boowa. He was recognised as an arahant. All he did was meditate using "buddo" as a mantra. Very simple. Beware of anything that deals with levels. There are no levels to awakening. This idea has come about through ignorance.

[rockyysdt]

I just familiarised myself with these 16 steps. It's ridiculous.

Interested to learn why?

it's overly and unnecessarily complicated that's why. Have you ever read anything by Maha Boowa. He was recognised as an arahant. All he did was meditate using "buddo" as a mantra. Very simple. Beware of anything that deals with levels. There are no levels to awakening. This idea has come about through ignorance.

I read his back some time ago.

From memory I understand he needed to experience realisation of various aspects of himself (body, mind, feelings etc).

Weren't these steps?

[A1Str8]

The ultimate purpose of any meditation is to stop thinking, since we are not designed to think, but to download.

[trd]

I just familiarised myself with these 16 steps. It's ridiculous.

Interested to learn why?

it's overly and unnecessarily complicated that's why. Have you ever read anything by Maha Boowa. He was recognised as an arahant. All he did was meditate using "buddo" as a mantra. Very simple. Beware of anything that deals with levels. There are no levels to awakening. This idea has come about through ignorance.

I read his back some time ago.

From memory I understand he needed to experience realisation of various aspects of himself (body, mind, feelings etc).

Weren't these steps?

No it's all one thing really. Here's where the confusion is. It may be that various aspects of experience develop and manifest at different times and in different ways. That shouldn't be mistaken for steps. Perhaps emotions become very enlivened or awareness of body changes but these are not steps as such, and there are not separate realizations for these different aspects . How can that which is changing and impermanent be realized.

[trd]

The ultimate purpose of any meditation is to stop thinking, since we are not designed to think, but to download.

Download what?

[rockyysdt]

I just familiarised myself with these 16 steps. It's ridiculous.

Interested to learn why?

it's overly and unnecessarily complicated that's why. Have you ever read anything by Maha Boowa. He was recognised as an arahant. All he did was meditate using "buddo" as a mantra. Very simple. Beware of anything that deals with levels. There are no levels to awakening. This idea has come about through ignorance.

I read his back some time ago.

From memory I understand he needed to experience realisation of various aspects of himself (body, mind, feelings etc).

Weren't these steps?

No it's all one thing really. Here's where the confusion is. It may be that various aspects of experience develop and manifest at different times and in different ways. That shouldn't be mistaken for steps. Perhaps emotions become very enlivened or awareness of body changes but these are not steps as such, and there are not separate realizations for these different aspects . How can that which is changing and impermanent be realized.

Maybe it's just a way of breaking it down for the traveler.

I need to reacquaint myself of the steps involved

My focus was on the first 4.

My understanding is that one must become proficient at these before attempting steps further along the path.

Hence the steps.

[Brucenkhamen]

The eightfold path is nonsense as it is generally understood. There are no steps to progress through. How is it possible to practice right speech, right action, right thinking etc. It isn't. I don't believe Buddha advocated such a practice.

Generally understood by whom? Ive never heard the eightfold path defined as steps to progress through until now so I can only assume its as generally understood by you.

I think its pretty clear that Nongnai was not referring to the eightfold path in the message you responded to either BTW.

It has obviously been misunderstood by those who wrote it down after his passing.

No, just by you.

The eightfold path is comprised of eight qualities to be cultivated, not eight steps to step through in sequence.

Right action of all kinds is an automatic outcome of realising that awareness alone is and that is what your true nature is. That is the true expression of the eightfold path.

But you cant even tell us what you think awareness is.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Brucenkhamen

[Brucenkhamen]

I just familiarised myself with these 16 steps. It's ridiculous.

Yes it is, considering a couple of years ago you professed to be familiar with the Anapanasati Sutta but now express surprise that it is laid out in 16 steps.

Actually while some people attempt to practice it as a step by step contemplation I think most people would see these as 16 factors that just naturally come into awareness over time as practice develops. The mind starts with the gross/bodily/material and gradually becomes more sensitive to and aware of the subtle/mental.

[Brucenkhamen]

No it's all one thing really. Here's where the confusion is. It may be that various aspects of experience develop and manifest at different times and in different ways. That shouldn't be mistaken for steps. Perhaps emotions become very enlivened or awareness of body changes but these are not steps as such, and there are not separate realizations for these different aspects .

agreed

[Brucenkhamen]

Maybe it's just a way of breaking it down for the traveler.

I need to reacquaint myself of the steps involved

My focus was on the first 4.

My understanding is that one must become proficient at these before attempting steps further along the path.

Hence the steps.

I think it's worth trying it as steps for a while, but like any technique that is detailed/step by step one drops it once one gets proficient, awareness is established, and the technique starts feeling clunky.

[trd]

The eightfold path is comprised of eight qualities to be cultivated, not eight steps to step through in sequence.

What's the difference between practising and cultivating?

But you cant even tell us what you think awareness is.

If you have to think about what awareness is then you don't know what awareness is. There is no description of awareness available. That is the whole point of practice. To experience it. If I gave you a description it wouldn't be what it is. Describe the colour blue to me.

Edited May 31, 2016 by trd