Thaksin Willing To Stand Trial

[ColPyat]

I wonder if this thread will ever get back on topic?

In the meantime a few general and hopefully neutral comments on some of the discussion above:

Marxism and its tenets can be useful as a political tool to analyse capitalism and its development in industrialised western nations. However, classical Marxism has always struggled when applied to systems that include a peasant (tied to the land) class rather than a working class. Marxism sees the development of the working class as necessary for revolution and betterment of the poor. Marxism would predict that the rise of industrialisation would have freed the peasants from the land. In many non-Western countries this never happened and Marxism ould not have predicted even China's revolution. In fact some may argue that the Chinese revolution was not a revolution.

There are further difficulties when trying to get information on or analyse Thailand. As someone previously mentioned who do you trust the information from: academics, journalists, elites? The truth is that none of these groups have any base in the majority of the country. Also anyone who has ever been involved in academic research will know that it is pretty limited in scope and relies on initial assumptions that could affect what comes later. All of which obviously makes an understanding of what is happening very difficult to reach, but then again it leaves us with endless potentialities to debate and argue about.

Peace.

Obviously there are differences in quality of academic works, and none are intended to be the sole and all-encompassing truth. But they are valuable tools. Considerable research went into these works, often field work involving large teams collecting data, reference material etc.

They are not written to represent the majority, but to educate as many people as can be bothered to allow themselves to be educated. If one wants material that represents the majority than one should go and quote from soap operas.

We all form our opinions based on personal experience, and i hope through well founded experiences of others. I would like to know what experiences of others make the experiences of my opponents so different than mine here in threads such as these.

Thailand is a very complex society, and many facts cannot be openly discussed about, but are often more frankly discussed in scholarly works. These facts though do give very different views on subject matters such as Thaksin's trial and related subjects, as they enable one to see things in a more extended context than only news media can possibly present due to obvious limitations.

[hammered]

I wonder if this thread will ever get back on topic?

In the meantime a few general and hopefully neutral comments on some of the discussion above:

Marxism and its tenets can be useful as a political tool to analyse capitalism and its development in industrialised western nations. However, classical Marxism has always struggled when applied to systems that include a peasant (tied to the land) class rather than a working class. Marxism sees the development of the working class as necessary for revolution and betterment of the poor. Marxism would predict that the rise of industrialisation would have freed the peasants from the land. In many non-Western countries this never happened and Marxism ould not have predicted even China's revolution. In fact some may argue that the Chinese revolution was not a revolution.

There are further difficulties when trying to get information on or analyse Thailand. As someone previously mentioned who do you trust the information from: academics, journalists, elites? The truth is that none of these groups have any base in the majority of the country. Also anyone who has ever been involved in academic research will know that it is pretty limited in scope and relies on initial assumptions that could affect what comes later. All of which obviously makes an understanding of what is happening very difficult to reach, but then again it leaves us with endless potentialities to debate and argue about.

Peace.

Obviously there are differences in quality of academic works, and none are intended to be the sole and all-encompassing truth. But they are valuable tools. Considerable research went into these works, often field work involving large teams collecting data, reference material etc.

They are not written to represent the majority, but to educate as many people as can be bothered to allow themselves to be educated. If one wants material that represents the majority than one should go and quote from soap operas.

We all form our opinions based on personal experience, and i hope through well founded experiences of others. I would like to know what experiences of others make the experiences of my opponents so different than mine here in threads such as these.

Thailand is a very complex society, and many facts cannot be openly discussed about, but are often more frankly discussed in scholarly works. These facts though do give very different views on subject matters such as Thaksin's trial and related subjects, as they enable one to see things in a more extended context than only news media can possibly present due to obvious limitations.

Dont get me wrong. I am not saying academic research is useless. I am trying to put it all in perpective. Critically reading widely on a topic is invaluable and I think the critical part is so important. It also helps to read that which one doesnt agree with just for balance. Sadly we seem a bit limited in scope what we have to read in Thailand.

By the way I also think it is well worth travelling a bit in Thailand and talking to local ordinary people when trying to form your own opinion on Thailand. Opinions can be quite surprising and challenge the norms we are fed.

I think we get so many different opinions on this subject because it is such an emotive issue for some, and because so much of what we read or hear is justifying or denigrating one side or the other creating supporters of both sides. There isnt much that one hears regularly that tries to offer an alternative to both and criticise both, and neither of the power blocks wants a third option to see the light of day either.

[ColPyat]

Dont get me wrong. I am not saying academic research is useless. I am trying to put it all in perpective. Critically reading widely on a topic is invaluable and I think the critical part is so important. It also helps to read that which one doesnt agree with just for balance. Sadly we seem a bit limited in scope what we have to read in Thailand.

By the way I also think it is well worth travelling a bit in Thailand and talking to local ordinary people when trying to form your own opinion on Thailand. Opinions can be quite surprising and challenge the norms we are fed.

I think we get so many different opinions on this subject because it is such an emotive issue for some, and because so much of what we read or hear is justifying or denigrating one side or the other creating supporters of both sides. There isnt much that one hears regularly that tries to offer an alternative to both and criticise both, and neither of the power blocks wants a third option to see the light of day either.

I agree with that post. Yes, traveling and communicating is most important. I do that, and i guess that at least some of my opponents do that as well. My specific question though is directed at the supplementary material of more theoretical nature people would suggest, what their reading material is. There are topics that in conversations are better not touched upon, but necessary to know about, and seen from different available angles.

I think it is a simple question that could be answered just with a list of books and studies they found useful in the formation of their opinions on current Thai politics, and which reflect their opinion. I have done so on several occasions. What i have not seen though from my opponents, yet. What i have seen is that every single book or study i mentioned was rubbished without reference to any equally peer reviewed study.

[John K]

So now some interesting thoughts occurred to me today and a bit of a blending of two or more threads. Some say Thaksin will not come back to stand trial hence the topic of this thread, yes or no. Now his passport is missing and according to some posts he must return to Thailand to get a new one. He will only get travel documents at the Thai Embassy.

This may be a bit far fetched but look at the following.

Assuming on May 30 the TRT is sent packing, that would remove Thaksin from legitimately returning to power for 5 years. That will also have the effect of declawing him a bit.

The next item is the court starting on June 18, and Thaksin should be here for that. Some say yes and some say no for the opening day. If it were me on Trial and I knew I was innocent, I would be there everyday.

Now for a moment let us just say the person who stole Thaksin’s passport was a Thai sent to do that to keep Thaksin from running and forcing him back to Thailand. After the TRT is dissolved Thaksin will have little influence. The only influence he will have is with legitimate business dealings with the companies he owns. Tea money will be short lived as anyone who has any contact with Thaksin will be highly scrutinize by the government. Do tea with Thaksin could amount to cutting your wrists and waiting to bleed to death.

It was an interesting thought and I don’t know if there is any truth behind it or just me being out in the hot sun today.

[hammered]

Dont get me wrong. I am not saying academic research is useless. I am trying to put it all in perpective. Critically reading widely on a topic is invaluable and I think the critical part is so important. It also helps to read that which one doesnt agree with just for balance. Sadly we seem a bit limited in scope what we have to read in Thailand.

By the way I also think it is well worth travelling a bit in Thailand and talking to local ordinary people when trying to form your own opinion on Thailand. Opinions can be quite surprising and challenge the norms we are fed.

I think we get so many different opinions on this subject because it is such an emotive issue for some, and because so much of what we read or hear is justifying or denigrating one side or the other creating supporters of both sides. There isnt much that one hears regularly that tries to offer an alternative to both and criticise both, and neither of the power blocks wants a third option to see the light of day either.

I agree with that post. Yes, traveling and communicating is most important. I do that, and i guess that at least some of my opponents do that as well. My specific question though is directed at the supplementary material of more theoretical nature people would suggest, what their reading material is. There are topics that in conversations are better not touched upon, but necessary to know about, and seen from different available angles.

I think it is a simple question that could be answered just with a list of books and studies they found useful in the formation of their opinions on current Thai politics, and which reflect their opinion. I have done so on several occasions. What i have not seen though from my opponents, yet. What i have seen is that every single book or study i mentioned was rubbished without reference to any equally peer reviewed study.

I would hope you do not list me as one of your opponents;) We have a agreed and disagreed over time on here!

Apart form the books often mentioned here there are some other older books that give interesting history. Neher's Modern (sic) Thai Politics springs to mind. The upcoming English (and updated) version of In His Majesty's Footsteps by Vasit may also be interesting and from a very different perspective. I wont go on about other books now but there a few worth a read, and there are also countless articles and booklets either in print or online.

[ColPyat]

I would hope you do not list me as one of your opponents;)

Nops - you haven't the honor of being on my shit list.

Also your ready willingness to list some works of worth would take you off it if you would have been there.

I am still though baffled by the deafening silence of many others here (who were actually meant with my question).

C'mon guys, no flames, just a list of books and/or studies.

Here's mine:

Most important for me: Bowie's 'Rituals of National Loyalty'

Handley's book, Ungpakorns 'A Coup for the Rich', then a new book i presently read: "Militia Redux - Or Sor and the revival of paramilitarism in Thailand", assorted papers by McCargo (i haven't had the patience to read his book on Chamlong but will so one day), assorted writings of Thongchai Winitchakul.

etc.

[Grover]

you haven't the honor of being on my shit list.

C'mon guys, no flames,

[ColPyat]

you haven't the honor of being on my shit list.

C'mon guys, no flames,

Another non-reader then (please, prove me wrong).

The second one.

Edited May 27, 2007 by ColPyat

[Grover]

you haven't the honor of being on my shit list.

C'mon guys, no flames,

Another non-reader then (please, prove me wrong).

The second one.

I am an avid reader but having only read one introductory book on Thai history, I cant really comment on this topic. I am interested in the posts of those who are have a broad perspective/overview of the subject though.

What I am particularly interested in is the cunning, tragic, and slightly comic ego character of Thaksin. I've actually learned a lot just by observing him and through the repercussions of his behavior.

I have no idea what will happen over the next few weeks. Perhaps you can offer your analysis and predictions.

[John K]

I agree, Colypyat here is your chance to make us all see you with more respect.

[blaze]

I agree, Colypyat here is your chance to make us all see you with more respect.

I already regard Colpyat with a lot of respect. I think you'll find that many in this forum do.

[ColPyat]

I am an avid reader but having only read one introductory book on Thai history, I cant really comment on this topic. I am interested in the posts of those who are have a broad perspective/overview of the subject though.

What I am particularly interested in is the cunning, tragic, and slightly comic ego character of Thaksin. I've actually learned a lot just by observing him and through the repercussions of his behavior.

I have no idea what will happen over the next few weeks. Perhaps you can offer your analysis and predictions.

Well, why then all the rubbishing of the books i recommend? The sarcasm and the thinly veiled flames?

Good that you are an avid reader, so am i since i learned reading. Why exclude studies on Thailand?

The character of Thaksin has to be seen in context, and for that you have to read books. Otherwise you will not see the many facets of his, and why he was elected, the so far only Thai PM who finished his term, and was re-elected. And who would doubtlessly be elected again if he would be able to stand elections right now.

I am not a Thaksin fan at all, but he shines through the failures of his opponents. Vote buying alone and abuse of constitutional rights did not make his success.

I can't make predictions, and i won't make the ones that involve amateur profiling (real profiling needs advanced degrees in Psychology/Psychiatry and years of experience in relevant fields, such as years as a law enforcement officer in criminal profiling, and not just an equivalent of a health worker certificate and an almost comical set of inflated ego so endemic under expats here in Thailand).

The only prediction i dare make here is that things are far from over, that Thailand's troubles have just begun, and the Thaksin issue is over rated. Behind this is a large part of the population that is not accepting the status quo anymore which puts them at a distinct economical disadvantage. Thaksin used those feelings of discontent. He may come back, or not, but those feelings will not go away, and sooner or later will find another expression as long as there are not fundamental changes in power and wealth distribution happening in Thailand. Governmental sponsored 'don't worry be happy' philosophies are not enough.

I think we can look at a very difficult decade ahead of us, with a very weak political system, constant factional infighting, and in the end i hope some positive changes so that Thailand can make the step ahead into a status of full development.

My old prediction, or bet, still stands: Thaksin will not be convicted of anything major, and he won't be convicted of any of the Human Rights abuses that happened under his tenure, and with his support. Because the many other guilty parties, as undemocratic as Thaksin, or even more so, can not be put to trial, especially not by a government they are integral part of (just look at one of the major perpetrators in the last decades here - Gen. Pallop - now being appointed special adviser to the ISOC. Has anyone ever thought about who those 700 K strong network of supporters may be? Use your brain, or better - your reading abilities - and then have a few personal communications with people of that 'network'. You will learn about a Thailand that not many westerners have much experience with, and one that is very opposite to what people believe Thailand may be. Trust me - this network is existing, and getting stronger by the day. A very uncomfortable thing here, especially knowing what is involved there.)

The most Thaksin will get is some face saving conviction that will neither destroy him, nor will it be painful enough for him to spill the beans in public.

Anyhow - my questions still is unanswered by most of my strong opponents here (yes, John K. - we can safely assume now that you are the third non-reader of scholarly works on Thai politics).

Anybody else?

[younghusband]

I agree, Colypyat here is your chance to make us all see you with more respect.

He is already widely respected as an intelligent and well informed commentator on Thailand.I'm incidentally not sure what gives you the right to speak for anyone but yourself.

[Grover]

Why exclude studies on Thailand?

It would be wrong to assume I 'exclude studies on Thailand'.

If you are referring to Thai Political history, it is because I am more interested in other subjects and there is only 24 hours in a day. This is not to say the subject disinterests me or is not worthy of study.

Well, why then all the rubbishing of the books i recommend?

I never "rubbished" the books you recommended, I simply discounted their importance, relative to a very specific context.

for your analysis and predictions, there is a lot of food for thought although I may not always agree with some of your conclusions.

Edited May 27, 2007 by Grover

[John K]

I agree, Colypyat here is your chance to make us all see you with more respect.

He is already widely respected as an intelligent and well informed commentator on Thailand.I'm incidentally not sure what gives you the right to speak for anyone but yourself.

You guys seem to be skipping over the key word in my statement “MORE” I never implied he was not respected.

[ColPyat]

I never "rubbished" the books you recommended, I simply discounted their importance, relative to a very specific context.

for your analysis and predictions, there is a lot of food for thought although I may not always agree with some of your conclusions.

Thanks, a yes, you are right, i don't remember you having rubbished any book i recommended.

No need to agree with me always - that would make a boring place here.

[Siripon]

I enjoy the colonel's posts and realise he relishes reading about topics, unfortunately this sometimes clouds his judgement, for instance about the PAD and Sonthi Limtongkun, he became preoccupied with Sonthi's past, no doubt due to excessive reading, and failed to gauge the genuine public outrage against Thaksin.

He claimed to have attended rallies and talked to leading participants but he confessed he'd never heard of Chirmsak Pinthong, a leading light in the anti-Thaksin rallies.

It's a bit like saying you follow British politics but you've never heard of Gordon Brown.

How the colonel managed to talk to the muslims villagers in the deep south on his recent tour is beyond me, he must have a firm grasp of Yawi. I'm sure his wife could have been of little assistance coming from the north of Thailand.

I believe you can never read enough, whether it's academics, journalists or writers of novels or history, but an 'ear to the ground' for current situations is essential.

[ColPyat]

I enjoy the colonel's posts and realise he relishes reading about topics, unfortunately this sometimes clouds his judgement, for instance about the PAD and Sonthi Limtongkun, he became preoccupied with Sonthi's past, no doubt due to excessive reading, and failed to gauge the genuine public outrage against Thaksin.

He claimed to have attended rallies and talked to leading participants but he confessed he'd never heard of Chirmsak Pinthong, a leading light in the anti-Thaksin rallies.

It's a bit like saying you follow British politics but you've never heard of Gordon Brown.

How the colonel managed to talk to the muslims villagers in the deep south on his recent tour is beyond me, he must have a firm grasp of Yawi. I'm sure his wife could have been of little assistance coming from the north of Thailand.

I believe you can never read enough, whether it's academics, journalists or writers of novels or history, but an 'ear to the ground' for current situations is essential.

Rather simple - there are many villagers in the deep south who do speak Thai (i was actually rather surprised about that after hearing constantly how useless Thai would be there). After decades of teaching Thai in schools there obviously are many who do speak that language, even though, admittedly some with an accent which took time for me to get used to. And i anyhow never go alone into a village there, only go together with local friends i can trust, who know which villages can be entered with calculable risk (you cannot just appear in a village - that could get you killed in a second, or worse).

I have spoken with several PAD leaders, i have a hard time remembering all the names. I am sorry, but there are many activists here. The one i clearly remember as the one who did no blathering was Mor Weng, and subsequently he has also distanced himself from that rotten bunch. Which does him a lot of honor.

Sondhi L.'s past? His present is as odious as his past was. Maybe it's you, dear Siripon, whose judgment is clouded by the understandable need to have a strong group of people trying to make life better for the poor here in Thailand. And don't get me wrong - i do perfectly understand that you do want a more just society here, as i want it.

But this is not going to happen with people like Sondhi L. or Chamlong spearheading protests, enticing other activists, and it won't happen with the present government. And yes, not with Thaksin either, though at least he was elected, and would have fallen from favor - in the end they all do. People are not that stupid.

[Tony Clifton]

The internet now has brought upon us a new breed, the book bully.

So we can the assume that you don't read books?

1421

[ColPyat]

The internet now has brought upon us a new breed, the book bully.

So we can the assume that you don't read books?

1421

Yes, right, China sailing out to the world. Great.

Beats me though what that has to do with the current Thai political situation. Unless you are going to make a large essay on how the early Chinese migrant's influence on the Ayuttaya court has strong influences on today's Thailand and have caused the present political crises. Thaksin's family though came from a much later Chinese migration.

I particularly asked about scholarly works on "Thailand", especially regarding subjects that have strong relevance to todays political situation.

[Totster]

The OP has requested this topic be closed, and as this topic has lost it's way somewhat I agree.

/topic closed

totster