Lawyers appeal against death sentences over murder of British tourists in Thailand

[AleG]

Now they are coming out with a new regulation ILAC G19 maybe the now know they have not got a chance with the ISO rules desperate times.

It also said they don't know if Hannah's clothes were tested or not and why the were not entered as evidence still failing to understand its up to police what they put in there case to get a conviction.

This is what they have written about the hoe in there press release (from MWRN fb page)

Its point 3 on their list

"There was no link between the alleged murder weapon (hoe) and the accused. DNA samples from the hoe did not match the accused dna profiles but instead matched profiles of other individuals and hence could not support a conviction."

Matched other individuals yes correct those individuals being Hannah and David but there was a partial profile the matched one of the accused but it could not prove if they had handled the hoe or not.

And the prosecutor also did not enter it as evidence. so why appeal it ?

Also according to Robert Holmes the defense wrote to the prosecutor to request the documentation related to the DNA the prosecutor did not reply, Robert holmes claims that any other defense team at this time would of then requested a court order to hand over DNA evidence and the defense did not do this why ?

The police made it very clear that the proper channel to hand out documents and evidence was for the defense to get a court order; that they didn't and/or backpedaled when they did, in my opinion it was all just a ploy to make it look as if the police was withholding things from them (and the public). Obviously it worked, on certain people at least. They can keep playing that game with the public, but that's not going to fly in the actual court during the appeal.

[AleG]

Mm only alibi is that he was with his girlfriend. The police excluded him because of that. I was with my girlfriend would not pass the sniff test in the west. The defense told the public for almost a year that they went back to sleep, and that's where mm found them at 5am, everything seemed normal says mm.

The next couple of hours, going back to the beach at 4am,finding the phone, was all kept back from the public by the defense. Why did the defense feel the need to hide that information for a year. We were only let know what the defense wanted us to know to perpetuate the illusion of innocence. If you have to hide information ,there is always something that someone should not be doing.

Muang Muang was let go because there was no evidence against him, if anything that shows that the notion that the RTP was simply out to frame Burmese up is just hot-air. Not only they could have framed MM along with the other two, it would had even made more sense as a scenario. Not that I think there's any merit on the notion that Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo couldn't do it alone.

In any case I believe MM must have, at the very least, suspected something; he was with them on that night, obviously he knew he and his two friends were the people the police was trying to find since very early in the investigation but he chose to lay low and say nothing until he was arrested.

As far as I know MM was never heard of again after the Myanmar embassy sent him back to Myanmar, if he had anything to say that would help his two friends I'm sure he would had been paraded around with a loudspeaker (as would had the other supposed witnesses who could prove the innocent of the B2 that were bandied about by the defense at one point or another)

[sjaak327]

See. They will fight on the technicalies of the case.

The new mantra.

Maybe they are innocent.

Maybe they are guilty.

It doesn't matter ☺☺

Protocol was not followed.

Bullshit.

Guilty as sin. even their own lawyers don't shout their innocence anymore.

Would like to see the death sentence overturned. Other than that, right where they should be.

Well many people have genuine concerns that the two Burmese blokes didn't get a fair trial. The evidence presented has been put into doubt.

From the evidence that was presented, I fail to see how their guilt has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

And therefore they should not be where they are now.

What you should be saying is there are some evidences that in doubt.

I recognise that ,which is why I look at all evidences available to the public foremostly other evidences that are not in doubt. Those evidences the defense continue to refuse to address and would like swept under the carpet. That's why they lost, because they will not address certain evidence. The defense has tunnel vision. The judges did not.

Yes, the judges weighted all the evidence, for example when examining the matter of the torture allegations Zaw Lin claimed he was beaten nearly to death, yet the court report cites the doctor who examined after the alleged torture and the photos taken at that time to determine that he showed no signs of such thing, so no guessing how that's going (not) to fly during the appeal. The same with the DNA, again the judges didn't just focus on whether they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's, they considered everything together, for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders, therefore the notion that they had been already adulterated to incriminate those two guys, caught two weeks later was, and is, absurd.

The thing is the "reasonable doubt" in this case is in fact an implausible list of amazing coincidences coupled to an elaborate conspiracy; there may be a doubt but reasonable it ain't.

I believe there is ample doubt. The fact that there were traces of DNA on the murder weapon, yet none of it matched any of the two suspects would be reason enough to doubt they did in fact murder the two victims.

[rockingrobin]

Mm only alibi is that he was with his girlfriend. The police excluded him because of that. I was with my girlfriend would not pass the sniff test in the west. The defense told the public for almost a year that they went back to sleep, and that's where mm found them at 5am, everything seemed normal says mm.

The next couple of hours, going back to the beach at 4am,finding the phone, was all kept back from the public by the defense. Why did the defense feel the need to hide that information for a year. We were only let know what the defense wanted us to know to perpetuate the illusion of innocence. If you have to hide information ,there is always something that someone should not be doing.

Why RTP deemed MM was not involved I do not know , however it is somewhat a moot point as the case was not about him.

For the Prosecution scenario to fit , the phone as to have been stolen during the attack before they return to the aacommadation and MM return, otherwise MM gives ZL an alibi. The alternative is ZL and WP commit the murders return to their accomadation , asleep when MM returns , then WP goes back to the crime scene and steals phone

[rockingrobin]

See. They will fight on the technicalies of the case.

The new mantra.

Maybe they are innocent.

Maybe they are guilty.

It doesn't matter ☺☺

Protocol was not followed.

Bullshit.

Guilty as sin. even their own lawyers don't shout their innocence anymore.

Would like to see the death sentence overturned. Other than that, right where they should be.

Well many people have genuine concerns that the two Burmese blokes didn't get a fair trial. The evidence presented has been put into doubt.

From the evidence that was presented, I fail to see how their guilt has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

And therefore they should not be where they are now.

What you should be saying is there are some evidences that in doubt.

I recognise that ,which is why I look at all evidences available to the public foremostly other evidences that are not in doubt. Those evidences the defense continue to refuse to address and would like swept under the carpet. That's why they lost, because they will not address certain evidence. The defense has tunnel vision. The judges did not.

Yes, the judges weighted all the evidence, for example when examining the matter of the torture allegations Zaw Lin claimed he was beaten nearly to death, yet the court report cites the doctor who examined after the alleged torture and the photos taken at that time to determine that he showed no signs of such thing, so no guessing how that's going (not) to fly during the appeal. The same with the DNA, again the judges didn't just focus on whether they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's, they considered everything together, for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders, therefore the notion that they had been already adulterated to incriminate those two guys, caught two weeks later was, and is, absurd.

The thing is the "reasonable doubt" in this case is in fact an implausible list of amazing coincidences coupled to an elaborate conspiracy; there may be a doubt but reasonable it ain't.

The doctor dod find injuries, and lets not forget the prosecution witness in the same cell who stated he saw a bruise

[DiscoDan]

Yes, the judges weighted all the evidence, for example when examining the matter of the torture allegations Zaw Lin claimed he was beaten nearly to death, yet the court report cites the doctor who examined after the alleged torture and the photos taken at that time to determine that he showed no signs of such thing, so no guessing how that's going (not) to fly during the appeal. The same with the DNA, again the judges didn't just focus on whether they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's, they considered everything together, for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders, therefore the notion that they had been already adulterated to incriminate those two guys, caught two weeks later was, and is, absurd.

The thing is the "reasonable doubt" in this case is in fact an implausible list of amazing coincidences coupled to an elaborate conspiracy; there may be a doubt but reasonable it ain't.

I believe there is ample doubt. The fact that there were traces of DNA on the murder weapon, yet none of it matched any of the two suspects would be reason enough to doubt they did in fact murder the two victims.

3 profiles on the hoe 2 full profiles 1 partial profile

the 2 full profiles were Hannah & Davids

and the 3rd a partial profile matched defendant but because it wasn't a full profile it could not prove they handled it.

If you are saying it can't be them because there dna is not on the hoe the only other reason there can be is that the hoe committed the murders.

[rockingrobin]

Yes, the judges weighted all the evidence, for example when examining the matter of the torture allegations Zaw Lin claimed he was beaten nearly to death, yet the court report cites the doctor who examined after the alleged torture and the photos taken at that time to determine that he showed no signs of such thing, so no guessing how that's going (not) to fly during the appeal. The same with the DNA, again the judges didn't just focus on whether they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's, they considered everything together, for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders, therefore the notion that they had been already adulterated to incriminate those two guys, caught two weeks later was, and is, absurd.

The thing is the "reasonable doubt" in this case is in fact an implausible list of amazing coincidences coupled to an elaborate conspiracy; there may be a doubt but reasonable it ain't.

I believe there is ample doubt. The fact that there were traces of DNA on the murder weapon, yet none of it matched any of the two suspects would be reason enough to doubt they did in fact murder the two victims.

3 profiles on the hoe 2 full profiles 1 partial profile

the 2 full profiles were Hannah & Davids

and the 3rd a partial profile matched defendant but because it wasn't a full profile it could not prove they handled it.

If you are saying it can't be them because there dna is not on the hoe the only other reason there can be is that the hoe committed the murders.

The RTP did not even bother to dna test the handle of the hoe, but used a magnifying glass to look for fingerprints. How absurd

Edited May 23, 2016 by rockingrobin

[DiscoDan]

The doctor dod find injuries, and lets not forget the prosecution witness in the same cell who stated he saw a bruise

Yes, the judges weighted all the evidence, for example when examining the matter of the torture allegations Zaw Lin claimed he was beaten nearly to death, yet the court report cites the doctor who examined after the alleged torture and the photos taken at that time to determine that he showed no signs of such thing, so no guessing how that's going (not) to fly during the appeal. The same with the DNA, again the judges didn't just focus on whether they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's, they considered everything together, for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders, therefore the notion that they had been already adulterated to incriminate those two guys, caught two weeks later was, and is, absurd.

The thing is the "reasonable doubt" in this case is in fact an implausible list of amazing coincidences coupled to an elaborate conspiracy; there may be a doubt but reasonable it ain't.

Yes he did have a injury to his chest and also a injury to his wrist, but we also know that David managed to put up a bit of a fight, so this could explain the chest injury wrist injury could have been from using the hoe with excessive force.

[rockingrobin]

The doctor dod find injuries, and lets not forget the prosecution witness in the same cell who stated he saw a bruise

Yes, the judges weighted all the evidence, for example when examining the matter of the torture allegations Zaw Lin claimed he was beaten nearly to death, yet the court report cites the doctor who examined after the alleged torture and the photos taken at that time to determine that he showed no signs of such thing, so no guessing how that's going (not) to fly during the appeal. The same with the DNA, again the judges didn't just focus on whether they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's, they considered everything together, for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders, therefore the notion that they had been already adulterated to incriminate those two guys, caught two weeks later was, and is, absurd.

The thing is the "reasonable doubt" in this case is in fact an implausible list of amazing coincidences coupled to an elaborate conspiracy; there may be a doubt but reasonable it ain't.

Yes he did have a injury to his chest and also a injury to his wrist, but we also know that David managed to put up a bit of a fight, so this could explain the chest injury wrist injury could have been from using the hoe with excessive force.

So the prosecution case is wrong

[Khun Han]

Fab99 I agree, I absolutely do not agree with the rtp version of events. I also believe with out a doubt that there were others. I really don't know who held the hoe.

Greenchair through my innoccent eyes I have difficulty believing you are genuine.

It seems that you are ready to forgo the cornerstone of justice and that is innocent untill proven guitly beyond reasonable doubt. It is a fact of life that nobody can know anything for certainty and the level of proof required varies depending upon the crime . In the case of an homicide the bar is raised to a considerable level.

It should also be remembered that it is not the burden of the accused to prove their innocence , but the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reaonable doubt.

I fail to see how you can agree with the conviction if you make the statement ' I absolutely do not agree with the rtp version of events. I also believe with out a doubt that there were others. I really don't know who held the hoe.'

Here you are casting doubt over the prosecution , it is the prosecution claim that both the defendants held the hoe ,

In an earlier post it is WP walking on the beach in your words 'cleaning up', it is the prosecution claim that both defendants are involved , are we to believe that WP was so concerned that he needed to fix things at the crime scene whilst ZL nonchantly returned to the accommadation and went to sleep

No, they did both go back to the room together. Then mm strangely left his girlfriend at 4am or there abouts and went to their room to wake them up. Apparently he was worried about his guitar and wp was worried about his shoes. So they went to retrieve them. I find mm story very strange. These island guys work late into the night. I just don't believe that he would sleep for only a couple of hours, then urgently leave his girlfriend. Why would he be worried about his guitar. He couldn't have known it was left behind, so why the urgency to leave his girlfriend? ??if wp thought his shoes were stolen, why would he go back for them? ?

If they were not stolen, why would he not take them back to his room, since he is so poor.

None of the night activities bothered me. But these morning activities are the strangest events. I'm not buying it was normal.

Speculation, speculation, speculation.....

[sjaak327]

Yes, the judges weighted all the evidence, for example when examining the matter of the torture allegations Zaw Lin claimed he was beaten nearly to death, yet the court report cites the doctor who examined after the alleged torture and the photos taken at that time to determine that he showed no signs of such thing, so no guessing how that's going (not) to fly during the appeal. The same with the DNA, again the judges didn't just focus on whether they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's, they considered everything together, for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders, therefore the notion that they had been already adulterated to incriminate those two guys, caught two weeks later was, and is, absurd.

The thing is the "reasonable doubt" in this case is in fact an implausible list of amazing coincidences coupled to an elaborate conspiracy; there may be a doubt but reasonable it ain't.

I believe there is ample doubt. The fact that there were traces of DNA on the murder weapon, yet none of it matched any of the two suspects would be reason enough to doubt they did in fact murder the two victims.

3 profiles on the hoe 2 full profiles 1 partial profile

the 2 full profiles were Hannah & Davids

and the 3rd a partial profile matched defendant but because it wasn't a full profile it could not prove they handled it.

If you are saying it can't be them because there dna is not on the hoe the only other reason there can be is that the hoe committed the murders.

According to testimony given by the lead pathologist, none of the profiles matched the defendants. End of story.

This is a capital murder case, and guilt needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. None of the circumstantial evidence presented proof they did in fact murder the two victims, and that's what they were convicted for.

It beats me how any judge could convict these two based upon the evidence presented.

In any case, you have the murder weapon, which does not contain any dna of the two suspects, and in the absence of any witnesses, a guilty verdict on murder isn't possible.

I am not saying they didn't do it, I am saying that there is not enough evidence to suggest that they did. In line of this, a not guilty on the murder charge would have been the only logical and just thing to do.

Edited May 23, 2016 by sjaak327

[Khun Han]

Yes, the judges weighted all the evidence, for example when examining the matter of the torture allegations Zaw Lin claimed he was beaten nearly to death, yet the court report cites the doctor who examined after the alleged torture and the photos taken at that time to determine that he showed no signs of such thing, so no guessing how that's going (not) to fly during the appeal. The same with the DNA, again the judges didn't just focus on whether they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's, they considered everything together, for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders, therefore the notion that they had been already adulterated to incriminate those two guys, caught two weeks later was, and is, absurd.

The thing is the "reasonable doubt" in this case is in fact an implausible list of amazing coincidences coupled to an elaborate conspiracy; there may be a doubt but reasonable it ain't.

I believe there is ample doubt. The fact that there were traces of DNA on the murder weapon, yet none of it matched any of the two suspects would be reason enough to doubt they did in fact murder the two victims.

3 profiles on the hoe 2 full profiles 1 partial profile

the 2 full profiles were Hannah & Davids

and the 3rd a partial profile matched defendant but because it wasn't a full profile it could not prove they handled it.

If you are saying it can't be them because there dna is not on the hoe the only other reason there can be is that the hoe committed the murders.

The "partial" profile didn't match a defendant. It was a cynical and dishonest ploy by the police to present it as such, and is perpetuated quite disingenuously by the likes of yourself and greenchair, despite it being explained over and over by DNA experts that this "partial match" 'evidence' is nonsense.

[Khun Han]

Fab99 I agree, I absolutely do not agree with the rtp version of events. I also believe with out a doubt that there were others. I really don't know who held the hoe.

Greenchair through my innoccent eyes I have difficulty believing you are genuine.

It seems that you are ready to forgo the cornerstone of justice and that is innocent untill proven guitly beyond reasonable doubt. It is a fact of life that nobody can know anything for certainty and the level of proof required varies depending upon the crime . In the case of an homicide the bar is raised to a considerable level.

It should also be remembered that it is not the burden of the accused to prove their innocence , but the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reaonable doubt.

I fail to see how you can agree with the conviction if you make the statement ' I absolutely do not agree with the rtp version of events. I also believe with out a doubt that there were others. I really don't know who held the hoe.'

Here you are casting doubt over the prosecution , it is the prosecution claim that both the defendants held the hoe ,

In an earlier post it is WP walking on the beach in your words 'cleaning up', it is the prosecution claim that both defendants are involved , are we to believe that WP was so concerned that he needed to fix things at the crime scene whilst ZL nonchantly returned to the accommadation and went to sleep

And again, the unfounded claim that Wei Phyo went back to the crime scene to clean it up. It was Mon Tuvichien who went to the crime scene to clean it up, as evidenced by photos that the police claimed they couldn't present as evidence because they didn't have the budget to do so . Edited May 23, 2016 by Khun Han

[rockingrobin]

Yes, the judges weighted all the evidence, for example when examining the matter of the torture allegations Zaw Lin claimed he was beaten nearly to death, yet the court report cites the doctor who examined after the alleged torture and the photos taken at that time to determine that he showed no signs of such thing, so no guessing how that's going (not) to fly during the appeal. The same with the DNA, again the judges didn't just focus on whether they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's, they considered everything together, for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders, therefore the notion that they had been already adulterated to incriminate those two guys, caught two weeks later was, and is, absurd.

The thing is the "reasonable doubt" in this case is in fact an implausible list of amazing coincidences coupled to an elaborate conspiracy; there may be a doubt but reasonable it ain't.

I believe there is ample doubt. The fact that there were traces of DNA on the murder weapon, yet none of it matched any of the two suspects would be reason enough to doubt they did in fact murder the two victims.

3 profiles on the hoe 2 full profiles 1 partial profile

the 2 full profiles were Hannah & Davids

and the 3rd a partial profile matched defendant but because it wasn't a full profile it could not prove they handled it.

If you are saying it can't be them because there dna is not on the hoe the only other reason there can be is that the hoe committed the murders.

The "partial" profile didn't match a defendant. It was a cynical and dishonest ploy by the police to present it as such, and is perpetuated quite disingenuously by the likes of yourself and greenchair, despite it being explained over and over by DNA experts that this "partial match" 'evidence' is nonsense.

The real question is , if the RTP did not dna test the hoe, how would they know

[rockingrobin]

The doctor dod find injuries, and lets not forget the prosecution witness in the same cell who stated he saw a bruise

Yes, the judges weighted all the evidence, for example when examining the matter of the torture allegations Zaw Lin claimed he was beaten nearly to death, yet the court report cites the doctor who examined after the alleged torture and the photos taken at that time to determine that he showed no signs of such thing, so no guessing how that's going (not) to fly during the appeal. The same with the DNA, again the judges didn't just focus on whether they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's, they considered everything together, for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders, therefore the notion that they had been already adulterated to incriminate those two guys, caught two weeks later was, and is, absurd.

The thing is the "reasonable doubt" in this case is in fact an implausible list of amazing coincidences coupled to an elaborate conspiracy; there may be a doubt but reasonable it ain't.

Yes he did have a injury to his chest and also a injury to his wrist, but we also know that David managed to put up a bit of a fight, so this could explain the chest injury wrist injury could have been from using the hoe with excessive force.

So the prosecution case is wrong

If the confessions are correct , it would have had to been Hannah if the injuries was from the attack

[Khun Han]

More misinformation from greenchair that has been corrected heaven knows how many times already, but here we go again:

They were at the other end of the beach several hours before the crime, with a beach party that was never investigated going on much nearer the crime scene at the time of the crime scene.

The cigarette butts were at the other end of the beach, from when they were there earlier.

The confession was tortured out of them and later retracted when they received legal advice.

There is no "the wine bottle", just a wine bottle in photo. Did the police check the 7/11 till roll to see if the wine they bought was the same brand as the one in the photo? No.

The midnight swim that happened several hours before the crime.

The clothes lost at the beach hours before the crime.

The shoes lost at the beach hours before the crime.

The phone red herring saga that the police have lied about repeatedly.

And going for pathos over Hannah's tragic death, when your posts are helping to shield the real murderers!!! Ugh!!!! Utterly, utterly revolting!!!

Khun H twisting the truth again and seem to be getting more desperate in the process

Yes there is a wine bottle Maung Maung went back home to get it as the B2 wanted to stay and drink more, then after he went to see his g/f (I can post the link if you want its on one of the so called justice pages )

cig butt they tested for DNA were next to the log 65 meters away (people can run 100m in under 10 seconds) so no not at the the other end of the beach. there were also other cig butts that were the same brand near the crime scene.

No prove that clothes were lost before crime or that they swam before crime thats just there story (no evidence to back this up)

Wai Phyo testified he found a phone on the beach (iphone4 thb15,000) his friend testified he smashed it up as he worried who's it was a phone that matched Davids.

We was told how these 2 were just poor migrants all they wanted to do is send money to their dear old Mums, But seem to be flush enough to destroy property worth 15,000thb

No, just good old Disco Dan twisting the truth in his usual hapless manner.

Did MM go to get more wine, or was it beer? But the wine bottle's just another red herring anyway, even more so than the phone because the police didn't investigate it.

Cig butts that were found where they were seen playing guitar and singing hours before the crime.

If WP returned to the beach at 4am (with MM, who was deemed uninvolved by the police), then he lost his stuff before the crime was committed.

Plenty of expensive found phones discovered in police raids after the crime, nobody in any hurry to sell them.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Khun Han

[Khun Han]

Disgraceful comments why do you continue to embarress yourself.

It's no more disgraceful than the second post which proclaims them to be as innocent as the day is long.

Neither view is really disgraceful as they believe what they right. Whereas neither can possibly know for sure.

The reality is we will never know what really happened on that night. Were the 2 convicted not involved in anyway; were they involved by not the main players; where they guilty as charged and convicted.

All we'll ever know is the inept investigation, the pantomime of holding a press conference with the most senior police officers to state the innocence of someone tried and convicted by social media and the trial and verdict itself.

Things just get filibustered, muddled and decisions made and rarely changed.

This is appalling in context but sadly not the only case in recent times.

The "second post" by myself is 100% accurate: There isn't a shred of hard evidence against the B2, just police say-so.

That's your opinion.

But, notwithstanding the performance and competence levels of the police and their inherent nature in such matters, the court believed otherwise; so did the British police forces who received reports and sent observers; so did the families of the victims.

We, unless you can say different, have not been privy to all the evidence against the two convicted of this crime.

We simply don't know all the facts and so with respect, you can't possible be 100% accurate.

Hannah Witheridge's sister Laura has made it quite clear that she thinks the B2 are innocent.

I would hope that we do have all the available evidence in the public domain, and that it was presented in open court! If the B2 were convicted on secret evidence not presented in open court for cross-examination, then there has been a gross travesty of justice. But I doubt that's the case: the judges made it clear that they convicted on the discredited DNA evidence.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Khun Han

[Khun Han]

See. They will fight on the technicalies of the case.

The new mantra.

Maybe they are innocent.

Maybe they are guilty.

It doesn't matter ☺☺

Protocol was not followed.

Bullshit.

Guilty as sin. even their own lawyers don't shout their innocence anymore.

Would like to see the death sentence overturned. Other than that, right where they should be.

Well many people have genuine concerns that the two Burmese blokes didn't get a fair trial. The evidence presented has been put into doubt.

From the evidence that was presented, I fail to see how their guilt has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

And therefore they should not be where they are now.

What you should be saying is there are some evidences that in doubt.

I recognise that ,which is why I look at all evidences available to the public foremostly other evidences that are not in doubt. Those evidences the defense continue to refuse to address and would like swept under the carpet. That's why they lost, because they will not address certain evidence. The defense has tunnel vision. The judges did not.

Yes, the judges weighted all the evidence, for example when examining the matter of the torture allegations Zaw Lin claimed he was beaten nearly to death, yet the court report cites the doctor who examined after the alleged torture and the photos taken at that time to determine that he showed no signs of such thing, so no guessing how that's going (not) to fly during the appeal. The same with the DNA, again the judges didn't just focus on whether they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's, they considered everything together, for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders, therefore the notion that they had been already adulterated to incriminate those two guys, caught two weeks later was, and is, absurd.

The thing is the "reasonable doubt" in this case is in fact an implausible list of amazing coincidences coupled to an elaborate conspiracy; there may be a doubt but reasonable it ain't.

"for example they pointed out that the results were produced just a few days after the murders"

Yet the only DNA evidence they produced at court (the scrappy piece of paper with scribblings-out and amendments) was dated two days after the B2 had been arrested.

Thanks for highlighting yet another error in the judges summary.

[DiscoDan]

More misinformation from greenchair that has been corrected heaven knows how many times already, but here we go again:

They were at the other end of the beach several hours before the crime, with a beach party that was never investigated going on much nearer the crime scene at the time of the crime scene.

The cigarette butts were at the other end of the beach, from when they were there earlier.

The confession was tortured out of them and later retracted when they received legal advice.

There is no "the wine bottle", just a wine bottle in photo. Did the police check the 7/11 till roll to see if the wine they bought was the same brand as the one in the photo? No.

The midnight swim that happened several hours before the crime.

The clothes lost at the beach hours before the crime.

The shoes lost at the beach hours before the crime.

The phone red herring saga that the police have lied about repeatedly.

And going for pathos over Hannah's tragic death, when your posts are helping to shield the real murderers!!! Ugh!!!! Utterly, utterly revolting!!!

Khun H twisting the truth again and seem to be getting more desperate in the process

Yes there is a wine bottle Maung Maung went back home to get it as the B2 wanted to stay and drink more, then after he went to see his g/f (I can post the link if you want its on one of the so called justice pages )

cig butt they tested for DNA were next to the log 65 meters away (people can run 100m in under 10 seconds) so no not at the the other end of the beach. there were also other cig butts that were the same brand near the crime scene.

No prove that clothes were lost before crime or that they swam before crime thats just there story (no evidence to back this up)

Wai Phyo testified he found a phone on the beach (iphone4 thb15,000) his friend testified he smashed it up as he worried who's it was a phone that matched Davids.

We was told how these 2 were just poor migrants all they wanted to do is send money to their dear old Mums, But seem to be flush enough to destroy property worth 15,000thb

No, just good old Disco Dan twisting the truth in his usual hapless manner.

Did MM go to get more wine, or was it beer? But the wine bottle's just another red herring anyway, even more so than the phone because the police didn't investigate it.

Cig butts that were found where they were seen playing guitar and singing hours before the crime.

If WP returned to the beach at 4am (with MM, who was deemed uninvolved by the police), then he lost his stuff before the crime was committed.

Plenty of expensive found phones discovered in police raids after the crime, nobody in any hurry to sell them.

He went back to get a bottle of alcohol thats what MM said if you want to twist that to beer you are welcome,

Yes thats what I said they were sitting 65 meters from the crime scene.

no because no one knows for sure what time they were killed.

If they have nothing to hide why would they be in a rush to sell they could wait to get the right price or they might not be working.

WP on the other hand couldn't wait to give his away and then his mate smashed it up after WP found it on the beach.

Why did WP not take it back ? instead letting his friend destroy it

And explain this one, why would WP say he found it in a bar if he had nothing to hide ?

And last but not least MM went back to look for his guitar with WP they looked high and low and could not find it, yet the next day it was found in the exact spot where they left it,

[rockingrobin]

Disco

The guitar , if it was where they left it , as you say whty did MM , who is not involved ,not retrieve the guitar. The person who was in possession of the guitar was not to eager to come forward with it

[Khun Han]

He went back to get a bottle of alcohol thats what MM said if you want to twist that to beer you are welcome,

Yes thats what I said they were sitting 65 meters from the crime scene.

no because no one knows for sure what time they were killed.

If they have nothing to hide why would they be in a rush to sell they could wait to get the right price or they might not be working.

WP on the other hand couldn't wait to give his away and then his mate smashed it up after WP found it on the beach.

Why did WP not take it back ? instead letting his friend destroy it

And explain this one, why would WP say he found it in a bar if he had nothing to hide ?

And last but not least MM went back to look for his guitar with WP they looked high and low and could not find it, yet the next day it was found in the exact spot where they left it,

No Dan, you're the one doing the twisting by claiming that MM got them more wine. He didn't, he got them beer, as he stated himself. But you told porkies to the forum that it was wine, so that you could reinforce the red herring about a wine bottle being incriminating. It isn't.

They were sitting 65m from the crime scene several hours before the crime. There was a beach party going on near the crime scene (not investigated by the police) which was a continuation of the party in a bar managed by Mon Tuvichien at the time of the crime. Were you in attendance by any chance?

Check the time that the attending doctor gave as the time of death. Has this been disputed?

You were creating a 'should be desperate to raise money' line of argumentation. But the phone saga's the biggest red herring in the stitch-up anyway.

MM was released as unconnected to the crime. If you have evidence that he was involved, you should present it. But you don't, so you endlessly and grotesquely twist circumstances to defame the two scapegoats and anyone connected with them.

[webfact]

Koh Tao Murder Case Legal Defense Team Today Submit 200 Page Death Sentence Conviction Appeal to Koh Samui Court



SAMUI: -- Yesterday at 9am a team of pro-bono lawyers working under the Lawyers Council of Thailand (LCT) to defend two Myanmar migrant workers sentenced to death following conviction on 24th December 2015 for the rape and murder of a female British tourist and the murder of a British male tourist on Koh Tao Island, Thailand in September 2014 appeal 1submitted a 198 page appeal against this conviction and sentencing to Koh Samui Court.

The lawyers were accompanied at this submission by May Thein and Phyu Shwe Nu, mothers of the two 22 year old Rakhine accused Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, who travelled from Rakhine State in Myanmar to Thailand on Saturday to submit the appeal and then visit their sons on death row in high security Bang Kwang Prison in Nonthaburi, where the accused have been held since January.

The appeal was worked on and finalized over 5 months as part of ongoing efforts by the team of LCT lawyers supported by Burmese, Australian and British translators, assistants and advisors to ensure a fair trial and adequate defense for the two accused. Case witness testimony ended on 11th October 2015 after 21 days of witness hearings involving 34 witnesses and thousands of pages of evidence. In its ruling sentencing Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo to death, the Koh Samui Court ruled last year that the prosecution had proved beyond all reasonable doubt and in using forensic evidence in accordance with international standards that Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo committed the crimes accused of. Today’s appeal disagrees with this ruling and requests Region 8 Appeals Court to reconsider and dismiss all charges against the accused. Once the Prosecution has responded to the defense appeal, Region 8 Appeal Court shall consider the case, likely within 2017, and send a judgement back to Koh Samui Court to deliver.

Hannah Witheridge (23) and David Miller (24) were murdered on 15th September 2014 on Koh Tao, a tourist island in the Gulf of Thailand. The murder investigation was widely criticised both domestically and internationally due to alleged mishandling of forensic evidence and alleged torture both of the two accused and migrant workers living on Koh Tao Island. The challenges faced to Thailand’s law enforcement and justice systems in this case also cast a serious shadow over the safety of tourism in Thailand.

appeal 2On 2nd October 2014, Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo (Win Zaw Htun), 22 year old migrant workers from Rakhine state in Myanmar, were arrested for immigration offences. Additional charges were then laid against them during questioning for rape, murder and theft related to the killings of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller. The two accused signed confessions during interrogation and also publicly and during questioning re-enacted the crimes.

On 14th October 2014, at a first advance witness hearing in the case, both accused then retracted their confessions to LCT lawyers. Later on defense lawyers received information that the two accused alleged beatings and torture were used during their detention, prior to sending on for questioning by investigation officials, to elicit their confessions made involuntarily. The Migrant Worker Rights Network (MWRN) and rights groups called on the LCT to provide trained lawyers for the accused to ensure they could adequately defend themselves against all the charges so as to ensure a fair trial and also importantly to guard against a potential miscarriage of justice in such a highly publicised and tragic case.

A two month delay in prosecuting the accused resulted from extensive media and diplomatic attention towards the case in addition to calls for justice by the accused, their families and the wider public. This resulted in further questioning of the accused that confirmed that both maintained their complete innocence and insisted their confessions came about involuntary as a result of torture. Multiple criminal charges were then filed against Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo on 4th December 2014 by the Koh Samui prosecutor at Koh Samui Court. The judges heeded calls for appeal 3adequate time to prepare a thorough defense for the accused and, after a number of preliminary evidence exchange hearings, the trial eventually commenced on 8th July 2015. Case witness testimony ended on 11th October 2015 after 21 days of witness hearings involving 34 witnesses and thousands of pages of evidence.

On 24th December 2015, Koh Samui Court, in a judgement already widely disseminated (unofficially translated by MWRN and available online at assets.documents

), fully supported and accepted the arguments put forward by the prosecution and ruled to convict Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo of murder and rape whilst sentencing them both to death. Relying primarily on DNA and forensics evidence collected, analysed and reported by the Royal Thai Police, the Court ruled that the prosecution had proven its case against the two accused beyond all reasonable doubt and in accordance with international forensic standards. The court ruled the defendant’s arguments were unsupported.

The 198 page appeal submitted today to Koh Samui Court outlines in detail key planks of the defense team’s arguments, presented during testimony of its 13 witnesses in court, so as to outline to what extent the defense witnesses should be seen as credible and the ruling of Koh Samui Court overruled by Region 8 Appeals Court. The appeal also considers testimony of prosecution witnesses so as to allow the court to compare the reliability of this witness testimony alongside that of the defense witnesses.

Almost half of the appeal contests the key issues surrounding reliability of DNA evidence accepted by Koh Samui Court as proving beyond all reasonable doubt a certain match between the two accused and the crimes/crime scene ‘in accordance with international standards.’ The defense insists this evidence, including that allegedly taken from appeal 4cigarette butts, sperm and saliva is wholly unreliable, inadmissible and should not have been considered by the Court in its ruling as it was not collected, tested, analysed or reported in accordance with internationally accepted forensic standards such as ISO 17025 and ILAC G19. The DNA evidence relied on contained many visible errors and raised suspicions of contamination, as accepted by the Court itself despite its ruling. A number of forensic tests not presented in Court except in the form of verbal hearsay evidence included cigarette butts. These tests were however relied on in the Court’s judgement to support the investigation reliability and a certain match between the accused and the deceased female’s body. The appeal insists all of this evidence should not have been considered as satisfying beyond reasonable doubt that the accused violently raped and murdered the female deceased or murdered the male deceased.

In addition, the appeal argues that Koh Samui Court erred in dismissing the defense team’s arguments that:

1. The case questioning and charging of the accused prior to prosecution was unlawful. The accused questioning after arrest and the process of notifying them of the charges against them were incorrect. The accused were questioned as ‘witnesses’ but it turned out as a confession that stated they confessed to murder and rape. The accused were questioned without lawyers or trusted persons present. The accused were not read their rights as criminal suspects or explained the nature of offences they were charged with. Neither were the accused provided adequate translation and legal representation as required by law and as was reasonable in the circumstances. The accused’s DNA samples were taken from them involuntarily and are hence inadmissible as evidence in court.

2. The accused’s original confessions cited by the prosecution in court came about involuntarily from torture or abuse, supported at trial by independent medical evidence, which made them fear for their lives and safety in the context of a case investigation when migrants reported systematic abuse on Koh Tao. These written confessions, even if they had been signed, should not have been considered by the Court. Other documents also written for the accused and which they involuntarily signed not even understanding what they were signing likewise should not have been considered by the court also. The videoed or staged re-enactments undertaken by the accused and submitted to the Court were likewise involuntary, staged under threat of violence and should not have been considered or should be inadmissible as evidence in court.

3. There was no link between the alleged murder weapon (a hoe) and the accused. DNA samples from the hoe didn’t match the accused DNA profiles but instead matched the DNA profiles of other individuals and hence could not support a murder conviction.

4. Other surrounding or circumstantial evidence in this case apparently showing the guilt of the accused was unreliable and should have been inadmissible and not considered by the Court. All of this evidence was not collected, tested, analysed or reported in accordance with internationally accepted standards. This includes all evidence relied on by the Court as linking the accused to the alleged crimes such as theft of the male deceased’s mobile phone and sunglasses as well as a ‘running man’ caught on CCTV.

5. The prosecution case was marked by an absence of significant evidence needed to prove the guilt of the accused for crimes they were charged with and supports the contention that the case against the accused could not be proved beyond reasonable doubt. This absent evidence included photographs of the crime scene, autopsy and DNA analysis processes, chain of custody documents for forensic evidence, certain forensic evidence documents as well as all detailed DNA analysis laboratory case notes. In addition, the clothes and the body surface of the female deceased expected to contain significant traces of DNA of the perpetrators were either not tested at all or tested but not included in the prosecution file or case evidence list. CCTV footage provided by the prosecution seemed to be incomplete and no fingerprint or footprint evidence was presented as part of the prosecution case.

The conclusion stated in the appeal is the opinion of the two accused calling for the Region 8 Appeals Court to issue a judgement dismissing all the charges against them.

Source: http://www.samuitimes.com/koh-tao-murder-case-legal-defense-team-today-submit-200-page-death-sentence-conviction-appeal-to-koh-samui-court/

-- Samui Times 2016-05-24

[Si Thea01]

See. They will fight on the technicalies of the case.

The new mantra.

Maybe they are innocent.

Maybe they are guilty.

It doesn't matter ☺☺

Protocol was not followed.

Bullshit.

Guilty as sin. even their own lawyers don't shout their innocence anymore.

Would like to see the death sentence overturned. Other than that, right where they should be.

Well many people have genuine concerns that the two Burmese blokes didn't get a fair trial. The evidence presented has been put into doubt.

From the evidence that was presented, I fail to see how their guilt has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

And therefore they should not be where they are now.

What you should be saying is there are some evidences that in doubt.

I recognise that ,which is why I look at all evidences available to the public foremostly other evidences that are not in doubt. Those evidences the defense continue to refuse to address and would like swept under the carpet. That's why they lost, because they will not address certain evidence. The defense has tunnel vision. The judges did not.

Hmm, you must be privy to information the rest of us aren't. I am dying to hear what piece of evidence the prosecution brought to table which establishes quilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I have not see any such evidence.

And just what evidence have you seen to become such an expert on the matter. As nothing has been released by the court then all anyone is able to comment on is what has been reported and what has been reported appears to be less than credible and those reporting clearly have an agenda. And why do you think you or anyone else on here will ever get to see any of the evidence presented.

The court's findings can be seen and challenged by the defense's legal team, not by anyone on here so your little wish of dying to hear what evidence the prosecution is totally futile. After reading the postings over 4 pages it's just the same old arguments, nothing new has been added so here we go again, "I l know better, no you don't I do". Then the name calling starts and all we end up with is a total nothing but the bagging and slinging off at others. Becomes very monotonous after awhile.

[Aj Mick]

"...still failing to understand its up to police what they put in there case to get a conviction."

So...what you are saying is...if they tested the clothes and came up with some DNA- samples, which 100% incriminate other people than the B2...and they simply choose to ignore that...you would be fine with that?

Everybody should be fine with that and ask no further questions?

Astonishing standpoint, to say the least!

The whole case has been built around avoiding, "losing", or "using up" anything that would implicate the original suspects.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/63714

The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok.

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon. He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao. He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

The prosecution and RTP are, of course, correct in saying that certain CCTV video records are not relevant to the case against the Burmese lads.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Aj Mick

[Aj Mick]

"Technicalities" include...

- confession made under torture

- no lawyer present during "questioning"

- DNA- evidence more than questionable, because (among others) chain of custody was broken, DNA- samples are used up and can not be retested...

- several questionable practices during evidence collection (messing with the clothes, trampling of "outsiders, all over the crime- scene)

- "evidence" produced out of thin air

- several possibly/ probably involved persons just left of the hook

- several leads not followed

...

...

...

the list is -literally- endless!

Have no idea if any or all of the above occurred bur regardless of what you have stated it is the death sentence they are appealing, nothing more, nothing less.

They are not appealing the death sentence. They are appealing the conviction.

[jabis]

The appeal reported seems to hold most of the valid points, it's all about the judges now to disseminate - unfortunately I'm not giving this "aftersales" much confidence - and so seems to be the case with international media as well.

[al007]

All very sad, I am not competent to comment on the rights and wrongs, but I do like and prefer the jury system that we have in the UK

But then look at the farce in the USA on the OJ Simpson trial

Also I prefer 10 guilty to be saved the death sentence, just in case the court gets it wrong, and in the UK this has happened many times

[StealthEnergiser]

Some of the defence points that have been submitted in relation to DNA from a defence lawyer.

DNA files presented had the accused names on them rather than a proper sample reference number. This is not possible without pre-knowledge of who’s DNA the sample being tested belonged to.

Retesting of the handle of murder weapon found DNA matching the male victim, but DNA matching neither of the accused was discovered. Originally police claimed there was no DNA evidence found on the handle of the murder weapon.

After results of DNA found on the handle of the murder weapon was disclosed in court to be from the male victim, prosecution admitted they had also found DNA matching the male victim on the handle of the murder weapon, but no DNA matching the accused. This case damaging evidence had not been introduced by the prosecution and raises the question of what other potentially case damaging evidence may have been withheld such as clothes of the victims allegedly not tested for DNA and why blood in the sand at the murder scene allegedly produced no DNA results, etc.

Multiple procedures are required in order to meet ISO 17025 international standards in DNA testing. The chain of custody, method of testing, graph generated and case notes resulting in the analysis report produced are all required in order to allow an independent expert to verify the results. Only the results of the test without any required supportive documents was provided by the prosecution witness.

Police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples allegedly taken from the victim’s body. This is scientifically impossible in any forensics testing laboratory anywhere in the world. For example, swabs taken from the victim would contain a minimum of three different DNAs producing what is known as a “mixed sample”. Mixed samples can be the most difficult to interpret, and from which a 100% match is never possible.

Thai forensic scientist Dr. Porntip’s DNA testing listed the statistical probability of a match on the results report. None of the prosecution’s DNA results presented indicated a statistical probability on the results reports. The “100% match” was only delivered verbally in court by a prosecution witness.

[tuanku]

Who would want to be an appeal court judge in this case. On the one side you have the weight of evidence, the international media and your own conscience and sense of natural justice (which presumably a senior judge will possess), on the other you have the national expectations, your bosses and their bosses instructions, and the reputation and legitimacy of the Thai justice system of which you are a prominent member. Two opposing irresistible forces with you in the middle. Which is the path of least resistance?

[Khon Kaen Dave]

Just out of interest,did Scotland Yard ever make public their observations of all this.And if they did,was it it strong? Or was it some weak diluted drivel to suit the Thais?

Just askin