Many Vietnam vets say they support lifting of arms embargo

[webfact]

Many Vietnam vets say they support lifting of arms embargo
By TAMMY WEBBER and CHRIS CAROLA

CHICAGO (AP) — The way Terry Neilen sees it, lifting the ban on U.S. arms sales to Vietnam makes sense in the face of China's growing influence in the region.

Fellow Vietnam veteran Ned Foote said Americans long ago forgave Germany and Japan for World War II, so there's no reason not to do the same with Vietnam.

"We're actually acting as a team in a sense," said Neilen, of Saratoga Springs, New York, who served in the Army infantry in Vietnam in 1967 and 1968. "They're joining together to give a show of strength."

Foote, who heads the New York State Council of Vietnam Veterans of America, noted that the Vietnamese have helped account for missing American service members.

President Barack Obama's decision to lift the half-century-old arms embargo was seen Monday by many veterans as a logical outgrowth of efforts to normalize relations between the U.S. and the southeast Asian nation that has become a major trading partner since the war ended in 1975.

Obama, looking to bolster a government regarded as a crucial ally in the region, vowed to leave behind the troubled history between the former enemies and embrace a new era. He steered clear of any condemnation of Vietnam for its treatment of dissidents.

"The war's over," said Bernard Edelman, deputy director of government affairs for the Vietnam Veterans of America.

He said the organization has not taken an official position on the president's action, but he compared it to U.S. efforts after World War II to normalize relations with Japan, Germany, Austria and Italy.

"We've tried to build bridges to the Vietnamese," Edelman said, while acknowledge that people "whom I know and love and respect might be angry at what the president's doing."

Steve Rylant, of Loveland, Colorado, said he didn't think lifting the ban was a good idea.

"The wounds are too deep," said Rylant, who served at an Air Force base in Thailand during the war. "It's taken this long for people to say 'welcome home.'"

Al Huber, 69, is president of the Illinois state council of the Vietnam Veterans of America. He said he's not worried about whether that country gets weapons, but he doesn't think Obama's decision to lift the embargo near the end of his presidency "serves any purpose except his personal agenda."

Obama said the move would ensure Vietnam can defend itself but denied it was in response to territorial disputes with China in the South China Sea. China has warned the U.S. not to take sides, and Obama said the nation supports a diplomatic resolution.

Still, human rights activists and some American lawmakers had urged Obama to press Vietnam's communist leadership to offer greater freedoms before lifting the embargo. Vietnam holds about 100 political prisoners, and there have been more detentions this year. Some rank-and-file veterans echoed those concerns.

"They have plenty of human rights violations to account for, and I don't feel it's really appropriate to provide arms to them until we can see they're more in line with our ... way of human rights," said Air Force veteran Jesse Hawk of Marietta, Georgia, who served in Vietnam from 1971 to 1973.

He acknowledged China's growing influence but added, "Until there's any kind of action, there's no need to go providing arms to a country that still has their own problems to deal with when you don't know if it'll be used against their own people."

Obama did not say how soon arms sales might begin. He said each deal would be reviewed individually.

Neither the American Legion nor the Veterans of Foreign Wars has taken a position on the embargo, officials said.

But under a resolution adopted two years ago, the American Legion opposes the sale of long-range ballistic missiles, as well as nuclear or biological weapons, to communist nations, spokesman John Raughter said.

The group recognizes "that the president must be the chief architect of U.S. foreign policy," said Raughter, adding that the organization would "study the situation very carefully" and discuss it at its national convention this summer.

"We realize there are a lot of factors at play, including China ... but we also remain concerned about the human rights situation in Vietnam."

Army veteran Willie Guzman, who served in Vietnam from 1969 to 1971, said that, as commander in chief, Obama had the right to lift the embargo.

"They're an ally of ours now," he said. "I think they should be able to work together as a unit, you know, so we can help protect the freedom of that country as well."

___

Carola reported from Albany, New York. Associated Press writer Dan Elliott in Denver and AP video journalist Johnny Clark in Marietta, Georgia, also contributed to this report.

-- (c) Associated Press 2016-05-24

[Koosdedooes]

"Fellow Vietnam veteran Ned Foote said Americans long ago forgave Germany and Japan for World War II, so there's no reason not to do the same with Vietnam"

Shouldn't this not be the other way around ? ie the Vietnamese forgiving the US for sticking their noses into what was an internal affair ?....nothing like WWII/Japan/Germany

[oxo1947]

"They have plenty of human rights violations to account for, and I don't feel it's really appropriate to provide arms to them until we can see they're more in line with our ... way of human rights,-------OP

Some Americans just do not learn from history....... but if they are so worried about their way of human rights, maybe a look at what your hugh sales of arms has now made the 4th strongest military country in the world. Saudi Arabia --not only a country with no human rights, but a country that hates you.

If you want to stop Chinese expansion---you have more in common with this country than the Saudi Mullahs that your providing all the unrestricted -no stings attached armoury for.

Vietnam will fight 100 years for every inch of its country, no matter who the opponent is..........

We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.---Robert McNamara's 1995 book "In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam".

[kamahele]

"Fellow Vietnam veteran Ned Foote said Americans long ago forgave Germany and Japan for World War II, so there's no reason not to do the same with Vietnam"

Shouldn't this not be the other way around ? ie the Vietnamese forgiving the US for sticking their noses into what was an internal affair ?....nothing like WWII/Japan/Germany

How about all parties involved, forgiving each other and moving on. I think the Vietnamese have been quite gracious in their willingness to forgive and Americans should do the same. The war is long over.

[pookiki]

The war in Vietnam was an act of aggression by the US. It was act of one colonial power replacing another. The US had absolutely no historical concept about the context of the civil war in Vietnam. The war destabilized the governments of Laos and Cambodia as well. The US bears the responsibility for the rise of Pol Pot and the ensuing fratricide in Cambodia that killed millions. The Vietnam war is very sad chapter of American history and the Vietnamese people have been very forgiving. Unfortunately, the lifting of the embargo has nothing to do with forgiveness. It is just a new version of the 'domino' theory.

Edited May 24, 2016 by pookiki

[keeniau96]

I was there as a Marine in 62-63, down in the delta and up north. Found good reason to respect the Vietnamese and support their very strong spirit. Much prefer them inside the tent pissing out than outside pissing in.

[Baerboxer]

The war in Vietnam was an act of aggression by the US. It was act of one colonial power replacing another. The US had absolutely no historical concept about the context of the civil war in Vietnam. The war destabilized the governments of Laos and Cambodia as well. The US bears the responsibility for the rise of Pol Pot and the ensuing fratricide in Cambodia that killed millions. The Vietnam war is very sad chapter of American history and the Vietnamese people have been very forgiving. Unfortunately, the lifting of the embargo has nothing to do with forgiveness. It is just a new version of the 'domino' theory.

No it wasn't. Vietnam fought a successful war against France to rid itself of its colonial ruler. Russia and China wanted to see a communist government in power as they bother wanted to spread the communist doctrine throughout Asia. America and its capitalist allies tried to support a capitalist democracy. America, Australia and South Korea all took direct overt action in the conflict that resulted. The Russians and Chinese more covert action.

It is unfortunate that some countries when freeing themselves from their imperial dinosaur rulers allowed some political factions to invite foreign intervention to impose their ideologies on the people rather than allowing the people a free choice.

The actions in Laos and Cambodia are a different subject.

[Usernames]

The war in Vietnam was an act of aggression by the US. It was act of one colonial power replacing another. The US had absolutely no historical concept about the context of the civil war in Vietnam. The war destabilized the governments of Laos and Cambodia as well. The US bears the responsibility for the rise of Pol Pot and the ensuing fratricide in Cambodia that killed millions. The Vietnam war is very sad chapter of American history and the Vietnamese people have been very forgiving. Unfortunately, the lifting of the embargo has nothing to do with forgiveness. It is just a new version of the 'domino' theory.

Comic book version of history, here. Pol Pot was a creature of the Viet Minh and China. Laos had been destabilized before America ever set foot in SE Asia.

[pookiki]

The war in Vietnam was an act of aggression by the US. It was act of one colonial power replacing another. The US had absolutely no historical concept about the context of the civil war in Vietnam. The war destabilized the governments of Laos and Cambodia as well. The US bears the responsibility for the rise of Pol Pot and the ensuing fratricide in Cambodia that killed millions. The Vietnam war is very sad chapter of American history and the Vietnamese people have been very forgiving. Unfortunately, the lifting of the embargo has nothing to do with forgiveness. It is just a new version of the 'domino' theory.

Comic book version of history, here. Pol Pot was a creature of the Viet Minh and China. Laos had been destabilized before America ever set foot in SE Asia.

Suggest that you watch the documentary "Fog of War". But, maybe you find any point of view that doesn't conform to your opinions comical.

[Usernames]

The war in Vietnam was an act of aggression by the US. It was act of one colonial power replacing another. The US had absolutely no historical concept about the context of the civil war in Vietnam. The war destabilized the governments of Laos and Cambodia as well. The US bears the responsibility for the rise of Pol Pot and the ensuing fratricide in Cambodia that killed millions. The Vietnam war is very sad chapter of American history and the Vietnamese people have been very forgiving. Unfortunately, the lifting of the embargo has nothing to do with forgiveness. It is just a new version of the 'domino' theory.

Comic book version of history, here. Pol Pot was a creature of the Viet Minh and China. Laos had been destabilized before America ever set foot in SE Asia.

Suggest that you watch the documentary "Fog of War". But, maybe you find any point of view that doesn't conform to your opinions comical.

Suggest you READ some BOOKS, such as Kenneth Conboy's Shadow War.

[bkk6060]

Good for them for moving on about this issue anyway.

Everyone has difficulties and some hardships in life.

It bothers me sometimes to see these guys living in the past, still crying and blaming their bad life on what happened 50 years ago.

[sgtsabai]

Hey bkk6060 Nobody's crying and blaming their lives on what happened 50 yrs. ago. Bullcrap. Most of us have problems, just like all Vets. We deal with them, some better than others. Yea, in one case I do blame the US on the damned Agent Orange I got sprayed with and has killed many of my friends. Yea, you were right there. The US had no business in Vietnam and had the US allowed the reunification vote, there was never a true "North and South", Ho Chi Minh would have been elected in a landslide. The fear of communism and the domino theory was in full practice then. Uncle Ho based his constitution on the US's and helped the US (OSS) during WWII. He was an admirer of the US in many ways and had lived in the US. Perhaps the US should fix it's own "human rights" problems first. Not good to throw stones when one lives in a glass house. The arms embargo should have been lifted long ago, in time for the Vietnamese to rearm and build a navy to at least counter China. On land, the Chinese found out just what America did, you get your butt whipped. On sea it was a different story. USMC Sgt-Vietnam 1966/67, Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

[Koosdedooes]

Hey bkk6060 Nobody's crying and blaming their lives on what happened 50 yrs. ago. Bullcrap. Most of us have problems, just like all Vets. We deal with them, some better than others. Yea, in one case I do blame the US on the damned Agent Orange I got sprayed with and has killed many of my friends. Yea, you were right there. The US had no business in Vietnam and had the US allowed the reunification vote, there was never a true "North and South", Ho Chi Minh would have been elected in a landslide. The fear of communism and the domino theory was in full practice then. Uncle Ho based his constitution on the US's and helped the US (OSS) during WWII. He was an admirer of the US in many ways and had lived in the US. Perhaps the US should fix it's own "human rights" problems first. Not good to throw stones when one lives in a glass house. The arms embargo should have been lifted long ago, in time for the Vietnamese to rearm and build a navy to at least counter China. On land, the Chinese found out just what America did, you get your butt whipped. On sea it was a different story. USMC Sgt-Vietnam 1966/67, Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

Its refreshing to see posts like this which cut through all the bravado, saber rattling and BS and tells things like they are/were

[bkk6060]

Hey bkk6060 Nobody's crying and blaming their lives on what happened 50 yrs. ago. Bullcrap. Most of us have problems, just like all Vets. We deal with them, some better than others. Yea, in one case I do blame the US on the damned Agent Orange I got sprayed with and has killed many of my friends. Yea, you were right there. The US had no business in Vietnam and had the US allowed the reunification vote, there was never a true "North and South", Ho Chi Minh would have been elected in a landslide. The fear of communism and the domino theory was in full practice then. Uncle Ho based his constitution on the US's and helped the US (OSS) during WWII. He was an admirer of the US in many ways and had lived in the US. Perhaps the US should fix it's own "human rights" problems first. Not good to throw stones when one lives in a glass house. The arms embargo should have been lifted long ago, in time for the Vietnamese to rearm and build a navy to at least counter China. On land, the Chinese found out just what America did, you get your butt whipped. On sea it was a different story. USMC Sgt-Vietnam 1966/67, Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

Oh sorry man, I don't disagree with a lot of what you said. I served also during that time age 61 now. Then 27 years as a Cop in LA. So I have seen my share. But I don't carry it or place blame. If you keep up with your fellow Marines many are still playing the blame game. Maybe to you, but to them not Bullcrap my friend.

I guess it is sad they are not strong mindwed enough to let it go and move on.

I hope you have.

Edited May 24, 2016 by bkk6060

[pookiki]

The war in Vietnam was an act of aggression by the US. It was act of one colonial power replacing another. The US had absolutely no historical concept about the context of the civil war in Vietnam. The war destabilized the governments of Laos and Cambodia as well. The US bears the responsibility for the rise of Pol Pot and the ensuing fratricide in Cambodia that killed millions. The Vietnam war is very sad chapter of American history and the Vietnamese people have been very forgiving. Unfortunately, the lifting of the embargo has nothing to do with forgiveness. It is just a new version of the 'domino' theory.

Comic book version of history, here. Pol Pot was a creature of the Viet Minh and China. Laos had been destabilized before America ever set foot in SE Asia.

Suggest that you watch the documentary "Fog of War". But, maybe you find any point of view that doesn't conform to your opinions comical.

Suggest you READ some BOOKS, such as Kenneth Conboy's Shadow War.

May I ask if you are a Vietnam Vet?. I am. Where were you during the Vietnam war? For better or worse, Norodom Sihanouk was the head of state in Cambodia until the US puppet Lon Nol overthrew him with absolutely no popular support. This was the beginning of the destabilization of Cambodia and the US must bear responsibility for what happened subsequently. It was the same in Laos with the forays of Air America with the CIA backed opium for arms with the Hmong. Need I tell you what happened with the Hmong? And it is still happening for that matter. And then there is all the unexploded ornidance in Laos that is killiing to this day. The US entered Vietnam and took sides in a civil war. Over fifty thousand US soldiers died needlessly. The number of Vietnamese killed during carpet bombings and the agent orange defoliation my never be known. Many vets and Vietnamese are still coping with the effects of agent orange, PTSD, and drug and alcohol addiction. Maybe you find this 'history' comical. But I find it tragic. I was here. Where were you?

Edited May 24, 2016 by pookiki

[pookiki]

Hey bkk6060 Nobody's crying and blaming their lives on what happened 50 yrs. ago. Bullcrap. Most of us have problems, just like all Vets. We deal with them, some better than others. Yea, in one case I do blame the US on the damned Agent Orange I got sprayed with and has killed many of my friends. Yea, you were right there. The US had no business in Vietnam and had the US allowed the reunification vote, there was never a true "North and South", Ho Chi Minh would have been elected in a landslide. The fear of communism and the domino theory was in full practice then. Uncle Ho based his constitution on the US's and helped the US (OSS) during WWII. He was an admirer of the US in many ways and had lived in the US. Perhaps the US should fix it's own "human rights" problems first. Not good to throw stones when one lives in a glass house. The arms embargo should have been lifted long ago, in time for the Vietnamese to rearm and build a navy to at least counter China. On land, the Chinese found out just what America did, you get your butt whipped. On sea it was a different story. USMC Sgt-Vietnam 1966/67, Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

Right on, brother. Very well said!

[Usernames]

Comic book version of history, here. Pol Pot was a creature of the Viet Minh and China. Laos had been destabilized before America ever set foot in SE Asia.

Suggest that you watch the documentary "Fog of War". But, maybe you find any point of view that doesn't conform to your opinions comical.

Suggest you READ some BOOKS, such as Kenneth Conboy's Shadow War.

May I ask if you are a Vietnam Vet?. I am. Where were you during the Vietnam war? For better or worse, Norodom Sihanouk was the head of state in Cambodia until the US puppet Lon Nol overthrew him with absolutely no popular support. This was the beginning of the destabilization of Cambodia and the US must bear responsibility for what happened subsequently. It was the same in Laos with the forays of Air America with the CIA backed opium for arms with the Hmong. Need I tell you what happened with the Hmong? And it is still happening for that matter. And then there is all the unexploded ornidance in Laos that is killiing to this day. The US entered Vietnam and took sides in a civil war. Over fifty thousand US soldiers died needlessly. The number of Vietnamese killed during carpet bombings and the agent orange defoliation my never be known. Many vets and Vietnamese are still coping with the effects of agent orange, PTSD, and drug and alcohol addiction. Maybe you find this 'history' comical. But I find it tragic. I was here. Where were you?

Yea, and I'm the Tsar of all the Russias. You were in Air America??? I don't think so. You know nothing about Laos, if you're trying to make that point. Fantasy. Your post is gibberish. You mix Vietnam with Cambodia with Laos. The Hmong? Killed by the communists and not treated all that well in Thai camps either.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Usernames

[pookiki]

May I ask if you are a Vietnam Vet?. I am. Where were you during the Vietnam war? For better or worse, Norodom Sihanouk was the head of state in Cambodia until the US puppet Lon Nol overthrew him with absolutely no popular support. This was the beginning of the destabilization of Cambodia and the US must bear responsibility for what happened subsequently. It was the same in Laos with the forays of Air America with the CIA backed opium for arms with the Hmong. Need I tell you what happened with the Hmong? And it is still happening for that matter. And then there is all the unexploded ornidance in Laos that is killiing to this day. The US entered Vietnam and took sides in a civil war. Over fifty thousand US soldiers died needlessly. The number of Vietnamese killed during carpet bombings and the agent orange defoliation my never be known. Many vets and Vietnamese are still coping with the effects of agent orange, PTSD, and drug and alcohol addiction. Maybe you find this 'history' comical. But I find it tragic. I was here. Where were you?

Yea, and I'm the Tsar of all the Russias. You were in Air America??? I don't think so. You know nothing about Laos, if you're trying to make that point. Fantasy. Your post is gibberish. You mix Vietnam with Cambodia with Laos. The Hmong? Killed by the communists and not treated all that well in Thai camps either.

Well, I guess the answer to my question is that your aren't a Vietnam vet, right? Yes, I know the story of the Hmong. Who were they aligned with during the Vietnam war? I knew many Lao people who were interned in camps in Thailand for years before being relocated to the US because they couldn't return home. Whose fault was that?

What's your point? Do you really consider the tragedy caused by US in engaging in the Vietnam conflict comical? You can attack me all you want but I take it you have no first hand knowledge of the events is SE Asia during the Vietnam conflict.

What happened was tragic. Do you disagree?

[zydeco]

Well, I guess the answer to my question is that your aren't a Vietnam vet, right? Yes, I know the story of the Hmong. Who were they aligned with during the Vietnam war? I knew many Lao people who were interned in camps in Thailand for years before being relocated to the US because they couldn't return home. Whose fault was that?

What's your point? Do you really consider the tragedy caused by US in engaging in the Vietnam conflict comical? You can attack me all you want but I take it you have no first hand knowledge of the events is SE Asia during the Vietnam conflict.

What happened was tragic. Do you disagree?

Let me enter this. Do you believe that all knowledge of an event must be based on personal experience? That is an anecdotal fallacy, unless you were everywhere in Vietnam, when deployed there and then you must have been deployed to Laos (where there were no official deployements) and to Cambodia as well. Frankly, limited to a certain region of a country, you just might be the last person to have an accurate overall understanding of the situation. I know a lot of Air America guys. I have made a couple of documentary films on them and the war in Laos. Usernames is correct. The origins of unrest in Laos lies with the French and the Viet Minh, as they were called, then. As for Cambodia, that's an entirely different story tied to the narcissism and lust for power of Sihanouk.

[pookiki]

Well, I guess the answer to my question is that your aren't a Vietnam vet, right? Yes, I know the story of the Hmong. Who were they aligned with during the Vietnam war? I knew many Lao people who were interned in camps in Thailand for years before being relocated to the US because they couldn't return home. Whose fault was that?

What's your point? Do you really consider the tragedy caused by US in engaging in the Vietnam conflict comical? You can attack me all you want but I take it you have no first hand knowledge of the events is SE Asia during the Vietnam conflict.

What happened was tragic. Do you disagree?

Let me enter this. Do you believe that all knowledge of an event must be based on personal experience? That is an anecdotal fallacy, unless you were everywhere in Vietnam, when deployed there and then you must have been deployed to Laos (where there were no official deployements) and to Cambodia as well. Frankly, limited to a certain region of a country, you just might be the last person to have an accurate overall understanding of the situation. I know a lot of Air America guys. I have made a couple of documentary films on them and the war in Laos. Usernames is correct. The origins of unrest in Laos lies with the French and the Viet Minh, as they were called, then. As for Cambodia, that's an entirely different story tied to the narcissism and lust for power of Sihanouk.

No, I don't believe that knowledge of an event must be based on personal experience but being in the military during the height of the conflict adds an element or experience that others would not have unless similarly situated. In these forums, I don't engage in name calling or attempt to degrade a person for a divergent point of view. I don't see it as the purpose of this forum. I am a Vietnam vet. I saw a lot of my friends come home in coffins. The French did a good job of screwing up things in SE Asia before the US arrived - no doubt about it. However, in my opinion the US intervention exacerbated the situation - quite considerably. The worst outcome besides the war in Vietnam was Pol Pot. I firmly believe that the US planted the seeds to allow the ascendancy of Pol Pot. If you and Usernames have a different opinion, so be it. The main point is that the US had no business in going to Vietnam in the first place. It was a huge mistake and countless lives were lost because of it.

[zydeco]

Well, I guess the answer to my question is that your aren't a Vietnam vet, right? Yes, I know the story of the Hmong. Who were they aligned with during the Vietnam war? I knew many Lao people who were interned in camps in Thailand for years before being relocated to the US because they couldn't return home. Whose fault was that?

What's your point? Do you really consider the tragedy caused by US in engaging in the Vietnam conflict comical? You can attack me all you want but I take it you have no first hand knowledge of the events is SE Asia during the Vietnam conflict.

What happened was tragic. Do you disagree?

Let me enter this. Do you believe that all knowledge of an event must be based on personal experience? That is an anecdotal fallacy, unless you were everywhere in Vietnam, when deployed there and then you must have been deployed to Laos (where there were no official deployements) and to Cambodia as well. Frankly, limited to a certain region of a country, you just might be the last person to have an accurate overall understanding of the situation. I know a lot of Air America guys. I have made a couple of documentary films on them and the war in Laos. Usernames is correct. The origins of unrest in Laos lies with the French and the Viet Minh, as they were called, then. As for Cambodia, that's an entirely different story tied to the narcissism and lust for power of Sihanouk.

No, I don't believe that knowledge of an event must be based on personal experience but being in the military during the height of the conflict adds an element or experience that others would not have unless similarly situated. In these forums, I don't engage in name calling or attempt to degrade a person for a divergent point of view. I don't see it as the purpose of this forum. I am a Vietnam vet. I saw a lot of my friends come home in coffins. The French did a good job of screwing up things in SE Asia before the US arrived - no doubt about it. However, in my opinion the US intervention exacerbated the situation - quite considerably. The worst outcome besides the war in Vietnam was Pol Pot. I firmly believe that the US planted the seeds to allow the ascendancy of Pol Pot. If you and Usernames have a different opinion, so be it. The main point is that the US had no business in going to Vietnam in the first place. It was a huge mistake and countless lives were lost because of it.

I'm not so much in disagreement with your last sentence as you seem to think. And I do think personal experience has a role, certainly in providing a taste of the events. But it doesn't confer expertise. Far from it. To give an example, I was at the Kennedy assassination in 1963. I can tell you everything about that day, what the weather was like, the sounds being made on the streets, the look on people's faces, reactions, the clothes they were wearing. But I know absolutely nothing about the assassination, the alleged conspiracies, the hour by hour passage of events. If somebody wants to know that, they are better off going to an expert on the matter. Just like you Vietnam War vets can give the color, taste, and feel of military snafus, logistic bungles, base life, and other operations at the time you were deployed. At a certain level of historical study that is crucial. But I don't think it provides special insight into the motivations and strategy for the overall war in all three countries.

[pookiki]

Well, I guess the answer to my question is that your aren't a Vietnam vet, right? Yes, I know the story of the Hmong. Who were they aligned with during the Vietnam war? I knew many Lao people who were interned in camps in Thailand for years before being relocated to the US because they couldn't return home. Whose fault was that?

What's your point? Do you really consider the tragedy caused by US in engaging in the Vietnam conflict comical? You can attack me all you want but I take it you have no first hand knowledge of the events is SE Asia during the Vietnam conflict.

What happened was tragic. Do you disagree?

Let me enter this. Do you believe that all knowledge of an event must be based on personal experience? That is an anecdotal fallacy, unless you were everywhere in Vietnam, when deployed there and then you must have been deployed to Laos (where there were no official deployements) and to Cambodia as well. Frankly, limited to a certain region of a country, you just might be the last person to have an accurate overall understanding of the situation. I know a lot of Air America guys. I have made a couple of documentary films on them and the war in Laos. Usernames is correct. The origins of unrest in Laos lies with the French and the Viet Minh, as they were called, then. As for Cambodia, that's an entirely different story tied to the narcissism and lust for power of Sihanouk.

No, I don't believe that knowledge of an event must be based on personal experience but being in the military during the height of the conflict adds an element or experience that others would not have unless similarly situated. In these forums, I don't engage in name calling or attempt to degrade a person for a divergent point of view. I don't see it as the purpose of this forum. I am a Vietnam vet. I saw a lot of my friends come home in coffins. The French did a good job of screwing up things in SE Asia before the US arrived - no doubt about it. However, in my opinion the US intervention exacerbated the situation - quite considerably. The worst outcome besides the war in Vietnam was Pol Pot. I firmly believe that the US planted the seeds to allow the ascendancy of Pol Pot. If you and Usernames have a different opinion, so be it. The main point is that the US had no business in going to Vietnam in the first place. It was a huge mistake and countless lives were lost because of it.

I'm not so much in disagreement with your last sentence as you seem to think. And I do think personal experience has a role, certainly in providing a taste of the events. But it doesn't confer expertise. Far from it. To give an example, I was at the Kennedy assassination in 1963. I can tell you everything about that day, what the weather was like, the sounds being made on the streets, the look on people's faces, reactions, the clothes they were wearing. But I know absolutely nothing about the assassination, the alleged conspiracies, the hour by hour passage of events. If somebody wants to know that, they are better off going to an expert on the matter. Just like you Vietnam War vets can give the color, taste, and feel of military snafus, logistic bungles, base life, and other operations at the time you were deployed. At a certain level of historical study that is crucial. But I don't think it provides special insight into the motivations and strategy for the overall war in all three countries.

I don't want to elaborate a lot or confer a position of superior knowledge of events but my work in the military involved working in the field of intelligence - I know military intelligence is an oxymoron. Not too many people can say that or say that they had access to information that was not available to the average citizen. When I recommended the documentary 'Fog of War' in one of my earlier posts, I found it compelling when I watched it because Robert McNamara reached the same conclusions about the Vietnam war that I made decades ago. And I do think he had special insights into the war and reached honest conclusions about the devils that haunted him. As for the life of the average vet, I don't think that their experiences should be overlooked, either. The fact of the matter is that the Vietnam war was very unpopular. The soldiers in the field may have not had a special insight or the knowledge of a misguided strategy but many of them paid the ultimate price. There is a difference between witnessing an event and being in the thick of it. Expertise is 'usually' gained by relying on the experience of others especially when it involves historical events. And I don't think you should assume that others who express an opinion have no level of expertise or knowledge outside of their own personal experience. If we both agree that Vietnam was a huge mistake, that is all that matters to me. I don't think there are many historical experts who would defend the US involvement in Vietnam at this point in time. So much time is wasted on this threads by bashing others. There's no respect.

Edited May 24, 2016 by pookiki

[Usernames]

May I ask if you are a Vietnam Vet?. I am. Where were you during the Vietnam war? For better or worse, Norodom Sihanouk was the head of state in Cambodia until the US puppet Lon Nol overthrew him with absolutely no popular support. This was the beginning of the destabilization of Cambodia and the US must bear responsibility for what happened subsequently. It was the same in Laos with the forays of Air America with the CIA backed opium for arms with the Hmong. Need I tell you what happened with the Hmong? And it is still happening for that matter. And then there is all the unexploded ornidance in Laos that is killiing to this day. The US entered Vietnam and took sides in a civil war. Over fifty thousand US soldiers died needlessly. The number of Vietnamese killed during carpet bombings and the agent orange defoliation my never be known. Many vets and Vietnamese are still coping with the effects of agent orange, PTSD, and drug and alcohol addiction. Maybe you find this 'history' comical. But I find it tragic. I was here. Where were you?

Yea, and I'm the Tsar of all the Russias. You were in Air America??? I don't think so. You know nothing about Laos, if you're trying to make that point. Fantasy. Your post is gibberish. You mix Vietnam with Cambodia with Laos. The Hmong? Killed by the communists and not treated all that well in Thai camps either.

Well, I guess the answer to my question is that your aren't a Vietnam vet, right? Yes, I know the story of the Hmong. Who were they aligned with during the Vietnam war? I knew many Lao people who were interned in camps in Thailand for years before being relocated to the US because they couldn't return home. Whose fault was that?

What's your point? Do you really consider the tragedy caused by US in engaging in the Vietnam conflict comical? You can attack me all you want but I take it you have no first hand knowledge of the events is SE Asia during the Vietnam conflict.

What happened was tragic. Do you disagree?

Okay, my calling your post "gibberish" was too strong. But you did seem to be mixing and matching without reference to the entire postwar history of the region. BTW, wasn't attacking you but what seems to be a scatter gun approach to the topic. Yes, I know about the Hmong--there is a good book on that, too, Tragic Mountains. As for the presumptions about my personal knowledge and experience, don't be so hasty. And just because somebody was there, doesn't mean that the person knows the full story. George Lincoln Rockwell was there, but that didn't give him authority on World War II.

[ttthailand]

My last comment was deleted so just let me say this to those who have no horse in the race, America should not get in bed with those who killed over 56,000 of our young American men and caused major damage to the minds and bodies of hundreds of thousands more. History is history and it will repeat.... Let them fend for themselves !

[bkk6060]

My last comment was deleted so just let me say this to those who have no horse in the race, America should not get in bed with those who killed over 56,000 of our young American men and caused major damage to the minds and bodies of hundreds of thousands more. History is history and it will repeat.... Let them fend for themselves !

Sorry, but that sounds very stupid and uninformative. How many Viets were killed?

The US made the decision to go in. They could have said NO and stayed out. But, communists were the devil back then and anything to stop them was good to go.

Now you have a communist Bernie Sanders running for president and he is very popular. What the Hey?

So you want to place blame on dead bodies. Maybe blame the US politicians for their decisions.

PS: I have gone back to Vietnam. 3 years ago. Nobody wearing their "Vietnam Vet" hats at the mall. It is mostly very young people in the cities. Age 20-30. The people are friendly and I did not see and anger harboring.

They seem to have gotten over it all and moved on. Good for them.