If you see an accident what do you do?

[stupidfarang]

I have seen a number of accidents over the years in Thailand. It was pointed out to me that if a westerner goes and help they may end up being blamed for the accident when in fact they had nothing to do with it in the first place.

What are your thoughts about this? Would you help or pass on by?

[Gsxrnz]

What page of the "Thailand Myths and Urban Legend Book" by Dick H. Farang is that one on?

[chiang mai]

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

[ryanhull]

Depends on the situation... most of the time you are not really needed to be honest and will just get in the way/cause more havok, I myself have seen a few and wanted to help but usually Thai`s jump in and help quickly enough... then again if it was an elder or a child/women I would help without thinking about it, if it was a pack of young phyco`s on motorbikes I would probably leave it becuase you never know.

I do not believe the story about being blaimed really, especially if its obvious you are nothing to do with it.

I once saved a ladys dog from chocking, it was one of those hand bag toy dogs, everyone was just stood around watching it, one guy was trying to put ice in its mouth as if that would help heh,

anyway I stepped in as a dog lover (did not really know what to do myself really) ,shoved a straw down its neck, picked it up by its feet giving it a big slap accross the back then put it back on its feet giving it a little slaps accross the face, water over its head... boom it sprung back to life, she was so thankfull to me she was crying, I am confident that dog would have died if I did not help so sometimes you just got to try, plus it made me feel great knowing I did something and didnt just walk by like the others.

We should all do our best to help each other out, just as the Thai`s help falangs when they have accidents,

Cheers

[GuestHouse]

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

[Koosdedooes]

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

"Thailand Myths and Urban Legend Book" by Dick H. Farang ?

[CharlieH]

Entirely depends on the circumstances and the urgency.

Having said that, dont let your ambitions over rule your capabilities.

Where possible leave it to the "professionals".

"do no harm" is a good starting point.

[chiang mai]

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

Without spending a lifetime searching for proof, the following (not necessarily 100% reliable source) provides some clarification:

"Good Samaritan Laws (or related local laws) are enacted to encourage people to come to the aid of others. In general, they protect individuals who voluntarily offer assistance to those in need and are created to provide immunity against liability.

Often, a Good Samaritan law imposes no legal duty to help a stranger in need. However, local laws may vary on this point and in some areas people are required to provide aid. There may not be Good Samaritan laws in your local area and it would be wise to determine the extent and use of Good Samaritan laws in your region.

To be protected by a Good Samaritan law, typically you should;

• Only provide care that is within the scope of your training as an Emergency Responder
• Ask for permission to help - child, parent or guardian
• Act in good faith
• Do not be reckless or negligent
• Act as a prudent would do so
• Do not abandon the patient once you have begun care.

  *The exception to this is if you must do so to protect yourself from imminent danger

Thailand Public Health & Safety Laws

Q. Since arriving here, I have heard that there is no Samaritan law shielding those trying to help someone who is injured. Is this true? Are you legally responsible for trying to help someone who may die if you do nothing? My first instinct would be to try to help someone if possible. However, if this opens you up to lawsuits, I would be very hesitant to help except in the most dire circumstances. Therefore, I thought it might be helpful to get a professional opinion.

Thai Lawyer's Response

According to the Criminal Code, Section 5, 5th paragraph, if you have training in first aid that enables you to save lives, you are by law required to help, but if you are a normal Samaritan with no training you are not legally required to help. You normally are not responsible of the outcome if you tried to help.

Q. I have been CPR/First Aid/Aed certifed in thailand 3 times. I will always keep my AED cert. Each time I recrert for CPR, we are told, even as a 'layperson' holding an AED cert, legally here, we are not allowed to use them. When I had a buisness 2 years ago, I wanted one in, i was told the same thing by the lawyer. I have just been told that this is a lie, that an layperson (untrained professionally) who is Certified to use an AED, it is not illegal here. Has this law changed since Nov 2013?

Thai Lawyer's Response

A layperson can use an AED legally and you will not have any legal implications, but if you are a doctor then you will be legally liable."

https://www.firstaidtrainingbangkok.com/about/good-samaritan-laws.html

Potential issues resulting from the above:

- whether certification and training from outside Thailand is acceptable.

- if the rules vary from province to province, the above suggests that they do.

- Use of the words, "not normally" and "normally" give rise for concern.

From previous debates on this subject I believe consensus has always been that there is liability and if I recall correctly, Moderator Tywais has further information on the subject.

[Tomtomtom69]

Entirely depends on the circumstances and the urgency.

Having said that, dont let your ambitions over rule your capabilities.

Where possible leave it to the "professionals".

"do no harm" is a good starting point.

Very good advice.

By the sounds of it, the OP is referring to a road accident. My advice is very simple. If the accident has already unfolded and you're anywhere other than a very rural, isolated area, leave it alone. Someone will probably already have seen the accident and called the authorities.

One time I saw an accident happen in front of me. Stupid lady driving a Honda CRV was talking on her phone and pulled into the main road, which her lane was merging into. She managed to hit a motorcycle with side cart causing the rider to get suspended in the air, before he fell to the ground. Myself and a couple of other road users then waited around, within less than 5 mins an ambulance had arrived. Nobody tried to help the poor man, other than checking to make sure he was still alive and that nobody accidentally drove over him as he was still lying on the road.

[Koosdedooes]

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

As I thought the poster got his assertion from ""Thailand Myths and Urban Legend Book" by Dick H. Farang "

Below is the answer from a lawyer...

https://www.firstaidtrainingbangkok.com/about/good-samaritan-laws.html

[chiang mai]

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

As I thought the poster got his assertion from ""Thailand Myths and Urban Legend Book" by Dick H. Farang "

Below is the answer from a lawyer...

Capture.PNG

https://www.firstaidtrainingbangkok.com/about/good-samaritan-laws.html

EDIT: to add - the Red Cross guidelines on this subject may interest some people:

http://www.ifrc.org/Global/Photos/Secretariat/201506/First%20Aid%20Law%20Advocacy%20Report%20%28final%29.pdf

[yellowboat]

Was 20 yards away from a woman that was robbed by a motorcycle taxi. He snatched her bag. Just handed her my phone so she

could make a call. Sometimes it is just the little things.

[chiang mai]

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

As I thought the poster got his assertion from ""Thailand Myths and Urban Legend Book" by Dick H. Farang "

Below is the answer from a lawyer...

Capture.PNG

https://www.firstaidtrainingbangkok.com/about/good-samaritan-laws.html

Go back and look at the issues raised in post 8 - and enough already with the book title, it was stale the first time around, this is a serious topic that deserves scrutiny rather than to be dismissed with bad jokes.

[Koosdedooes]

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

Without spending a lifetime searching for proof, the following (not necessarily 100% reliable source) provides some clarification:

"Good Samaritan Laws (or related local laws) are enacted to encourage people to come to the aid of others. In general, they protect individuals who voluntarily offer assistance to those in need and are created to provide immunity against liability.

Often, a Good Samaritan law imposes no legal duty to help a stranger in need. However, local laws may vary on this point and in some areas people are required to provide aid. There may not be Good Samaritan laws in your local area and it would be wise to determine the extent and use of Good Samaritan laws in your region.

To be protected by a Good Samaritan law, typically you should;

• Only provide care that is within the scope of your training as an Emergency Responder
• Ask for permission to help - child, parent or guardian
• Act in good faith
• Do not be reckless or negligent
• Act as a prudent would do so
• Do not abandon the patient once you have begun care.

  *The exception to this is if you must do so to protect yourself from imminent danger

Thailand Public Health & Safety Laws

Q. Since arriving here, I have heard that there is no Samaritan law shielding those trying to help someone who is injured. Is this true? Are you legally responsible for trying to help someone who may die if you do nothing? My first instinct would be to try to help someone if possible. However, if this opens you up to lawsuits, I would be very hesitant to help except in the most dire circumstances. Therefore, I thought it might be helpful to get a professional opinion.

Thai Lawyer's Response

According to the Criminal Code, Section 5, 5th paragraph, if you have training in first aid that enables you to save lives, you are by law required to help, but if you are a normal Samaritan with no training you are not legally required to help. You normally are not responsible of the outcome if you tried to help.

Q. I have been CPR/First Aid/Aed certifed in thailand 3 times. I will always keep my AED cert. Each time I recrert for CPR, we are told, even as a 'layperson' holding an AED cert, legally here, we are not allowed to use them. When I had a buisness 2 years ago, I wanted one in, i was told the same thing by the lawyer. I have just been told that this is a lie, that an layperson (untrained professionally) who is Certified to use an AED, it is not illegal here. Has this law changed since Nov 2013?

Thai Lawyer's Response

A layperson can use an AED legally and you will not have any legal implications, but if you are a doctor then you will be legally liable."

https://www.firstaidtrainingbangkok.com/about/good-samaritan-laws.html

Potential issues resulting from the above:

- whether certification and training from outside Thailand is acceptable.

- if the rules vary from province to province, the above suggests that they do.

- Use of the words, "not normally" and "normally" give rise for concern.

From previous debates on this subject I believe consensus has always been that there is liability and if I recall correctly, Moderator Tywais has further information on the subject.

So where the bit that states "Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner." ?

What is written is the complete opposite to what you said..in other words you have no source for any of your assertions...consensus among farangs on TV means nothing

[chiang mai]

So where the bit that states "Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner." ?

What is written is the complete opposite to what you said..in other words you have no source for any of your assertions...consensus among farangs on TV means nothing

Which part of "may", "normal" and "not normally" did you not understand!

This is about the law in Thailand, how it is interpreted, whether it is interpreted uniformly across all provinces, whether it is applied equally to foreigners and locals and whether the law is applied identically in the CBD of Bangkok and in the back of beyond in Nakon Nowhere.

As a resident foreigner it is right to be concerned and to err on the side of caution on this issue and until I see a more substantive document or source that confirms there is categorically no liability on uncertified first responders who attempt to intervene in a medical emergency, I'm sticking with my long term belief that this not the case.

NOTE: it's worth reading the Red Cross document I posted earlier because it shows that fear of legal fall out is one of the main drivers that prevents people from helping in medical emergencies, this being true in a range of countries including the UK! It goes to recommend that removing that liability is important but even more important is that its removal is communicated to a doubting public.

[Bob12345]

My wife is a trained medical professional specialized in emergency medicine, so in case we see a serious accident we stop and she checks out if she can help.

In most cases emergency respondents are already on their way and she only checks if people have been unconscious or are in serious danger. If not, then there is nothing she can do at the spot that an equipped emergency response team cannot do.

In case someone is in serious danger there is little a non-trained person can do.

In general I would therefore advice to stop in case of serious accidents and do what another person already said: help as far as you are capable (offering support, making sure the situation doesn't become worse, get traffic go around the accident site, help them by lending your mobile phone, etc).

[Broken Record]

I help if I can, until the ambulance comes.

[D3030]

I have seen a number of accidents over the years in Thailand. It was pointed out to me that if a westerner goes and help they may end up being blamed for the accident when in fact they had nothing to do with it in the first place.

What are your thoughts about this? Would you help or pass on by?

If it's a car accident, get the license plate number as it drives away..

Or, if the guy jumps out of the car and runs, use your best judgement..

Stop him or follow..

Video is a bonus in both situations..

Anyway, like it was pointed out, Thais will be all over an accident..

Seriously, from 3 of the accidents I saw.

Those helping, were doing more harm than good..

If you know what to do, and you're the first one on the scene, I'd help..

Then again, if it's a motorbike on motorbike, hit and run accident.

And you're the first person to roll up on your motorbike to help..

Someone might think you caused it... My guess..

Edited May 24, 2016 by D3030

[Rumblecat]

Stop and help.

I've done it before. A guy smacked his motorbike into an illegally parked van (a black van as well, which you couldn't see well under street lights). I was walking by, on my way back from 7-11, about three in the morning, the only person around. Went to help him. Took a while for another car to slow down and help though- most of them kept on-going, pausing briefly to rubberneck. Thai guy got out to help. There wasn't much we could do though- I've got first aid training but the biker's injuries were severe and died before the ambulance arrived.

Police showed up after that. Didn't even take my name- they were just relieved when they found out that it wasn't a hit and run- less paperwork, less to follow up on. I hope they tracked down whichever thoughtless moron parked their van illegally on a busy main road but I doubt it. Horrifying to see how quickly and brutally a life can end.

[Koosdedooes]

So where the bit that states "Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner." ?

What is written is the complete opposite to what you said..in other words you have no source for any of your assertions...consensus among farangs on TV means nothing

Which part of "may", "normal" and "not normally" did you not understand!

This is about the law in Thailand, how it is interpreted, whether it is interpreted uniformly across all provinces, whether it is applied equally to foreigners and locals and whether the law is applied identically in the CBD of Bangkok and in the back of beyond in Nakon Nowhere.

As a resident foreigner it is right to be concerned and to err on the side of caution on this issue and until I see a more substantive document or source that confirms there is categorically no liability on uncertified first responders who attempt to intervene in a medical emergency, I'm sticking with my long term belief that this not the case.

NOTE: it's worth reading the Red Cross document I posted earlier because it shows that fear of legal fall out is one of the main drivers that prevents people from helping in medical emergencies, this being true in a range of countries including the UK! It goes to recommend that removing that liability is important but even more important is that its removal is communicated to a doubting public.

"may", "normal" and "not normally" would be used "legal terms" when there are a multitude of possible outcomes dependent on a set of given circumstances, in other words the possible options are too numerous to list.... that is all these terms mean in this set of circumstances, in other words if there was charge of some sort lodged against an individual a court or a judge would determine whether the persons actions where in line with or went beyond what would be considered being a "good Samaritan"...that all it means...

you stated categorically

"Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner." "

You have provided absolutely no links or information to prove your assertion and what you have linked to actual says the opposite in reference to Thailand,

what happens in the UK is irrelevant, but given the levels of the nanny state HSE Nazi types in the UK, what you have stated is not surprising, but the fact remains the debate is Thailand not the UK.

now show me an extract from Thai law which states "a first responder certificate is required in Thailand", and secondly show me the extract which states should a person not have a first responder certificate when providing first aid at an accident scene, and patient or injured person subsequently expires..person providing the assistance will be held liable...?

What is does say if you have first aid training you are legally obligated to assist, it makes no mention of a first responders certificate or any form of certificate, it just says training...

[richard_smith237]

I did see an accident... Stopped and helped...

Drunk guy on motorbike hit the central reservation and perhaps a sign.

We U-Turned... I was first on scene.

Thai's came out of no where to also help.

One called the Hospital.

I asked others to use their lights on their phones and warn oncoming motorists.

I ensured the Injured guy was breathing and not bleeding too much (ensuring I didn't get blood on my hands) - he wasn't bleeding out so it was ok, he'd managed to scalp the back of his head though ! (no helmet).

I ensured no one moved him and when he came around (after being unconscious) I told him he was ok, but not to move.

The Ambulance came after about 7-10 mins or so. As soon as the Medics arrived, I just stepped away and went back to the car.

It was pretty obvious what I was doing... It was pretty obvious to those around me that I was trying to help... no one questioned my behaviour... everyone seemed to listen and respond...

There was absolutely no negative aspect - I'm glad I helped and would like think I would do so again.

Once Caveat: Each situation is individual and must be evaluated on its individual merits... ... I won't put my family or myself at risk.. there are some instances or situations I may choose not to render assistance.

Edited May 24, 2016 by richard_smith237

[chiang mai]

So where the bit that states "Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner." ?

What is written is the complete opposite to what you said..in other words you have no source for any of your assertions...consensus among farangs on TV means nothing

Which part of "may", "normal" and "not normally" did you not understand!

This is about the law in Thailand, how it is interpreted, whether it is interpreted uniformly across all provinces, whether it is applied equally to foreigners and locals and whether the law is applied identically in the CBD of Bangkok and in the back of beyond in Nakon Nowhere.

As a resident foreigner it is right to be concerned and to err on the side of caution on this issue and until I see a more substantive document or source that confirms there is categorically no liability on uncertified first responders who attempt to intervene in a medical emergency, I'm sticking with my long term belief that this not the case.

NOTE: it's worth reading the Red Cross document I posted earlier because it shows that fear of legal fall out is one of the main drivers that prevents people from helping in medical emergencies, this being true in a range of countries including the UK! It goes to recommend that removing that liability is important but even more important is that its removal is communicated to a doubting public.

"may", "normal" and "not normally" would be used "legal terms" when there are a multitude of possible outcomes dependent on a set of given circumstances, in other words the possible options are too numerous to list.... that is all these terms mean in this set of circumstances, in other words if there was charge of some sort lodged against an individual a court or a judge would determine whether the persons actions where in line with or went beyond what would be considered being a "good Samaritan"...that all it means...

you stated categorically

"Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner." "

You have provided absolutely no links or information to prove your assertion and what you have linked to actual says the opposite in reference to Thailand,

what happens in the UK is irrelevant, but given the levels of the nanny state HSE Nazi types in the UK, what you have stated is not surprising, but the fact remains the debate is Thailand not the UK.

now show me an extract from Thai law which states "a first responder certificate is required in Thailand", and secondly show me the extract which states should a person not have a first responder certificate when providing first aid at an accident scene, and patient or injured person subsequently expires..person providing the assistance will be held liable...?

What is does say if you have first aid training you are legally obligated to assist, it makes no mention of a first responders certificate or any form of certificate, it just says training...

You do understand the word "can" is not the same as the word "will":

"Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner." I did not write"will" or that it is the law!

Now go back and read again the parts about "normally", "not normally" etc. You're clearly more in arguing than you are about any debate on this subject and it's not clear that you understand how laws are applied here and the involvement of a foreigner in a situation where money can be extracted. And if you see matters differently, YOU go gather the evidence and make a supported case by posting a link showing there is no liability under Thai law where a first responder is not certified.

[silent]

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Fantastic excuse I hope I can remember and stick my thumb where it doesn't shine too. The best answer I can think is the same as everywhere. If nobody's hurt and you're not involved, you weren't there.................unless totally clueless of basic first aid and certifiable.

[evadgib]

At the very least my own drills inc:

- Not allowing the situation to become worse by using my own car as a buffer between victim and unsuspecting traffic.

- Capturing the scene on dashcam, inc audio commentary (VRNs etc).

- Call the nearest hospital.

- Write a detailed report explaining everything at the first opportunity, dated and timed.

The above comes in handy to insurers etc re witness statements without any of the probs associated with first aid.

HTH

[Shadychris]

If you see an accident what do you do?

Take some photos\video and upload it to Facebook and YouTube seems to be the commonly accepted course of action these days.

[Shadychris]

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Source?

Ketchup please!

Seriously that sounds like the sort of crazy law that might exist in the 'sue over anything and everything' American society - but I'm rather doubting it is the case in Thailand, or many other countries for that matter..

Edited May 24, 2016 by Shadychris

[chiang mai]

Unless you hold a First Responder certificate and you intervene in a medical emergency and that person dies, you can be held liable, regardless of whether Thai or foreigner.

Fantastic excuse I hope I can remember and stick my thumb where it doesn't shine too. The best answer I can think is the same as everywhere. If nobody's hurt and you're not involved, you weren't there.................unless totally clueless of basic first aid and certifiable.

This is not a question of what I personally may or may not do in such a scenario, it's simply a statement about the legal implications, big difference.

[impulse]

The problem with quoting chapter and verse of the law is that a fair outcome depends on honesty of the people involved.

In the Eastern culture, the outcome trumps honesty. If a little lie can bring in a lot of money, a lie is perfectly acceptable. (Don't believe me? Read Tsun Tsu. Dishonesty is a virtue in the case of war, and in this part of the world, pursuit of money is war.)

Rare as it may be, it's quite possible that someone would see a foreigner, smell cash and lie through their teeth about the foreigner's participation. In that case, it's not a defense against being a Samaritan. It's a defense against a false accusation.

It has happened to several co-workers in China. They came upon accident scenes long after they happened, tried to render help (or just gawked), and the victims claimed they were to blame for the accident. Nobody was around to exonerate them (in one case, the victim's relatives actually conspired with the victim), and it cost some money to make it go away.

I can't say I've heard of the same in Thailand, but the culture, economic conditions and legal system are pretty similar. And once you're in the system, it's too late to rethink what just happened.

Unless I'm going to be able to make a real difference, I'm going to let the professionals handle it. If I can make a real difference, it's going to depend on the situation.

[chiang mai]

I agree but the digital nomads seem not to understand that aspect!

As far as what help a person might give goes: calling ambulances, directing traffic, blocking oncoming traffic etc are all normal things that anyone might be expected to do without even thinking. Whether or not medical intervention would be a step too far would surely depend on the circumstances - stemming the flow from a severed artery, almost certainly yes and I suspect that would be an automatic reactive response - moving a person in any way, probably not - taking a back seat where it was viable to do so, almost certainly.

[Don Mega]

typically all the accidents I have seen are whilst Iam in the car so if possible I slow down, take a few pics then carry on my way.