Horrible Discovery in Tiger Temple: Dozens of Dead Tiger Kittens

[berybert]

Disgusting so much for religion

There is nothing wrong with religion per se, it is the way it is abused that is disgusting

Nothing wrong with religion ?.

Religion is a man made business that is above all laws and is happy to shit on all and sundry.

If you see nothing wrong with it, then more fool you.

[hgma]

A new form of crime syndicates, religious mafia!

[stoneyboy]

A new form of crime syndicates, religious mafia!

I wouldn't say it was a new thing,like most issues in Thailand they are now brought to public attention more so with the advent of Internet and social media.

The Internet,Facebook and various other outlets are very powerful in today's Thailand.

Edited June 1, 2016 by stoneyboy

[Mafesto]

sickening...just disgusting .

[canuckamuck]

A new form of crime syndicates, religious mafia!

Where have you been? I think they are the original form.

[Bluespunk]

Disgusting!

I don't even want to think about how many hundreds - if not thousands - of cubs were brutally killed over the years to be sold off as ingredients for dubious quack medicines, because it makes me sick to my stomach.

Who said any were "brutally killed" to be sold off as ingredients for dubious quack medicines? The BBC is quoting a farang helper as saying that dead cubs bodies were frozen and kept for years in some cases as evidence that they were not trafficking the cubs.

Yeah, right...

[NongKhaiKid]

A new form of crime syndicates, religious mafia!

I wouldn't say it was a new thing,like most issues in Thailand they are now brought to public attention more so with the advent of Internet and social media.

The Internet,Facebook and various other outlets are very powerful in today's Thailand.

Hence the govt's determination for total control.

It doesn't matter how big the carpets are now they're no match for the internet and social media.

Edited June 1, 2016 by NongKhaiKid

[Sooo Upto Me]

I've told my partner that I will never enter another temple in Thailand,an certainly will not donate anything to these orange low life scum.

Most of them are druggies an criminals who are a disgrace to this.country.

[DaveinAsia]

It takes years to become a Catholic Priest and we know that there Institution is not without there own problems....some centuries old....Well to be a Monk here all you need to do is show up.

Commit a crime....become a monk.

Its all a facade.

So what? Catholic priests are not monks and cannot be compared with them. Monasteries in UK would probably accept individuals wanting to be monks in the same way as Thai temples do.

It doesn't matter what happens in the LOS you are always out there defending them with your never ending rhetoric. Look guys, things like this happen in Europe too, etc, etc.

Don't you see this yourself? The only thing that matters to you is bouncing the ball back, no matter how horrific the news. Of course things like this happen all over the world but it's not the point. The point is about discussing what happens here in TH. This is Thai Visa forum, not UK forum or Ireland forum for expats. I'm sure the same amount of UK bashing goes on back home by expats there, so give in a bit and let guys discuss freely what is going on in LOS without your never ending apologist behaviour. Who is paying you anyway?

[webfact]

Thailand raids Tiger Temple removing big cats



KANCHANABURI: -- A raid on Thailand’s Tiger Temple has uncovered 40 tiger cub carcasses, as authorities swoop on the controversial attraction.They were found stuffed in a freezer at the Buddhist site Wat Pa Luangta Bua Yannasampanno which is believed to be involved in animal cruelty and trafficking.

Wildlife officials removed 40 of 137 big cats held at the privately-run attraction, and planned to return to take the rest and re-house them in state-owned sanctuaries.

The temple located 140km from Bangkok started keeping and breeding tigers 15 years ago and became famous as a place where visitors could pet and take selfies with the big cats.

Wildlife activists have accused the temple of supplying big cats to the black market. Former workers claimed the tigers were beaten, ill-fed and kept in small concrete cages. Some visitors reported animals appeared drugged. The monks deny all charges.

-- (c) Copyright Euronews 2016-06-02

[alanferdi]

Anyone out there still defending the scum who ran this cesspit?

Oh....they got the catch...but not the person....marketing gag!. Let temples be temples and Zoos be Zoos...you combine them both and you have just this...a business. The largest nonsense is selling the penis of these animals to the Chinese and the skin too..... Idiots.....and religious too!!!!

[Kiwiken]

I visited there about 6 years ago. Love the Tigers but thought the Cats did not have enough room to move about. Does not suprise me that the animals may have been doped. Sad such magnificent animals exploited like this. I hope justice prevails and it is not the remaining animals that pay the price.

[alfalfa19]

This is big news on the PBS news shows on the radio in the US. I was not expecting that, I guess the animal rights folks are really sinking their teeth into it. Good for them, I say.

[taony]

So while its taking these days to get all the tigers out, meanwhile all the perpetrators are doing what? Why is no one being apprehended? There will be no repercussions i imagine? Or are they being given time to flee? Or get their fortifications for the temple ready?

The man who thinks he's pm will mention this? Nah, probably just tell people to remember to be kind hearted then order a flood defense to work.

[cumgranosalum]

They must have hidden away the pregnant ones, and then taken their kittens away. Perhaps drugged them, the mothers.

Mother cats, whatever the size, are very protective of their kittens.

This week - gorilla death and now loads of tigers who are becoming extinct.... 40 of them found frozen. Boggly mind.

What is going to happen to the others.

.

You might find that a lot less females were used for breeding than you might think - some may have been selected as foetus factories - We don't know as yet how long a period these 40 cubs represent. However the temple has been suspected for years of "speed breeding" - these are techniques and conditions used by Chinese tiger farms. A tigress would normally expect to have a litter of 3 or 4 cubs every 2 years or so. I the wild the mortality rate is quite high.

If a litter of cubs dies for any reason, the female will be able to have another one within five months. A hormonal process is triggered

What these farms do is remove the cubs and this tigers the process in the female that allows her to get pregnant up to 2 or 3 times a year.

This is why you often see zoos where a pig might suckle a litter of cubs - not because they are “orphans” but because either the mother is unable to produce milk or more likely the cubs have bee taken away to encourage the female to become pregnant again.

This would have kept the temple supplied with plenty of cubs for petting - a major source of income, but would also have damaged the female tigers and probably resulted in many early deaths. These corpses are of course very marketable in the TCM industry.

[cumgranosalum]

It takes years to become a Catholic Priest and we know that there Institution is not without there own problems....some centuries old....Well to be a Monk here all you need to do is show up.

Commit a crime....become a monk.

Its all a facade.

So what? Catholic priests are not monks and cannot be compared with them. Monasteries in UK would probably accept individuals wanting to be monks in the same way as Thai temples do.

as explained - no they don't.

[Artisi]

One good question: why they had dead baby tigers and other animal parts?

https://twitter.com/alisatang/status/737891127991373825'>

Probably to sell for use in Chinese 'medicines'.

.

Take note all ye worshippers of 'Alternative' medicine

Why, the market for this sort of thing is for a very small populationwho believe that products from certain wild animals will have a beneficial effect. To lump it in with Alternative medicine shows a lack of knowledge about the subject

China......Very small population?............Chinese medicine is 'Alternative medicine' in the West and revered by the many lovable and idealistic but gullible and exploited alternative cranks who will believe absolutely anything. Like most 'Traditional' medicine' most Chinese medicine is 'Quack' medicine same as that which has and continues today to grant power, influence and money to wily witch doctors/shamans/apothecaries/health supplement companies/ alternative therapy pedlars worldwide. Maybe 10 to 20% is efficaceous and most of this consists of natural remedies that have already been converted and improved and marketed as mainstream drugs anyway. The rest of it works only through the power of suggestion and the'placebo' effect. I wish I was not a skeptic then it might work for me...........!

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Western medicine is the "alternate medicine" the new kid on the block so to say, it's only been around for a very short period in comparison to other systems.

I will grant you the fact that there is a lot of nonsense peddled as medicine including the western system, and bear in mind the drug companies of today aren't interested in cures, they are only interested in the bottom line of the accounts and paying big dividends to themselves and shareholders.

[cumgranosalum]

Disgusting!

I don't even want to think about how many hundreds - if not thousands - of cubs were brutally killed over the years to be sold off as ingredients for dubious quack medicines, because it makes me sick to my stomach.

Who said any were "brutally killed" to be sold off as ingredients for dubious quack medicines? The BBC is quoting a farang helper as saying that dead cubs bodies were frozen and kept for years in some cases as evidence that they were not trafficking the cubs.

Seems an unlikely tale !

Why would anyone one wish to freeze and keep dead bodies for years ?

Forensic examination of the bodies will reveal the truth!

It may be that processing and dispersal of the bodies is difficult to organise....without detection?

[IslandLover]

shawn000, on 01 Jun 2016 - 11:12, said:shawn000, on 01 Jun 2016 - 11:12, said:

12DrinkMore, on 01 Jun 2016 - 07:24, said:12DrinkMore, on 01 Jun 2016 - 07:24, said:

Bluespunk, on 01 Jun 2016 - 07:14, said:Bluespunk, on 01 Jun 2016 - 07:14, said:

Anyone out there still defending the scum who ran this cesspit?

Was there any?

Went there about four years ago. Clearly a commercial enterprise run by and for the monks.

I could not understand why there was a group of western "volunteers" helping to look after the tigers. If they had cared about the animals they should have been campaigning outside the entrance.

Cambodia wants some tigers to release into the wild. Send fifty or so over there.

Some of the Western volunteers may have been undercover from animal rights groups, though probably more of them were just naive.

As for releasing them, unfortunately they are all cross breeds of unknown decent so no chance that is going to happen. This is coupled with the fact that they have been raised in captivity, trained not to fear humans and without hunting skills, they would either likely die of starvation or end up terrorizing people and be shot, sadly these tigers are doomed to captivity, though hopefully their next home will be much better and without the daily stress of tourists touching them.

I don't think they stand much of a chance to be honest. It will be like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Who in Thailand is going to look after 137 adult tigers properly, who can live between 16 and 22 years in captivity?

Edited June 2, 2016 by IslandLover

[cumgranosalum]

slow down. what was the point of killing the tiger cubs? they were kept in a freezer and may have been collected over a number of month or years. why didnt they get rid of them? they must have know wild life officers were going to raid them eventually, why didnt they get rid of them?

Critical thinking, perfect!

I was wondering the exact same.

It is not that the authorities invaded the temple out of the blue, they have been trying to get access for years now. So why keep the evidence laying around all that time?

You can only wait for their excuse: "these cubs died early after birth and according to Buddhist teaching XYZ we kept their bodies around for research to avoid further loss of lives in the future".

My best guess would be that either the dead cubs are relatively fresh and have not been sold or processed yet, and they did not get rid of the evidence because they are too arrogant to even consider losing their battle against the authorities.

not critical thinking really; there isn't a sound premise to start from yet.........however it has puzzled me to........but the question is "why were they keeping them? the bodies would have been easy enough to dispose of is a discreet furnace or fire.......if they had been kept as "evidence" why wasn't the evidence shown If for sale or processing, well maybe it is difficult to move this product on - but they managed to "lose" 3 tigers without too much hassle.

It also has not been said how long they have been kept.

Gestation with tigers takes about 16 weeks - Forced breeding could have produced 2 litters a year from a female say 8 cubs a year - Mortality rate in young cubs is very high anyway....but if ALL were to die that would take at least 5 years. 10 or more tigresses could produce all these corpses in one year - quite feasible for the temple with 147 or more tigers.

Is it even possible that they were receiving these cub corpses from elsewhere?

I think that straight forward disposal of young dead cubs would not have been a problem....so the question is why were they kept?

Edited June 2, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[IslandLover]

A very distressing read:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/01/160121-tiger-temple-thailand-trafficking-laos0/

Also this:

http://cee4life.org/tiger-temple-report/

[cumgranosalum]

shawn000, on 01 Jun 2016 - 11:12, said:shawn000, on 01 Jun 2016 - 11:12, said:

12DrinkMore, on 01 Jun 2016 - 07:24, said:12DrinkMore, on 01 Jun 2016 - 07:24, said:

Bluespunk, on 01 Jun 2016 - 07:14, said:Bluespunk, on 01 Jun 2016 - 07:14, said:

Anyone out there still defending the scum who ran this cesspit?

Was there any?

Went there about four years ago. Clearly a commercial enterprise run by and for the monks.

I could not understand why there was a group of western "volunteers" helping to look after the tigers. If they had cared about the animals they should have been campaigning outside the entrance.

Cambodia wants some tigers to release into the wild. Send fifty or so over there.

Some of the Western volunteers may have been undercover from animal rights groups, though probably more of them were just naive.

As for releasing them, unfortunately they are all cross breeds of unknown decent so no chance that is going to happen. This is coupled with the fact that they have been raised in captivity, trained not to fear humans and without hunting skills, they would either likely die of starvation or end up terrorizing people and be shot, sadly these tigers are doomed to captivity, though hopefully their next home will be much better and without the daily stress of tourists touching them.

I don't think they stand much of a chance to be honest. It will be like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Who in Thailand is going to look after 137 adult tigers properly, who can live between 16 and 22 years in captivity?

It is however quite possible that the tigers will be housed properly and instead of displayed to the public to the detriment of their more natural behaviour, be allowed to exercise properly, get a scientifically appropriate diet, refrain from being used as baby machines. There are plenty of profoundly well informed and experienced conservationists including a successful wild tiger organisation - but the problem has been that no-one will/would act one their advice. Hopefully we will see a change now.

PS - none of these animals can be released into the wild - this is just a non-starter...those who suggest it are talking out of their backsides.

Edited June 2, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[cumgranosalum]

One good question: why they had dead baby tigers and other animal parts?

Probably to sell for use in Chinese 'medicines'.

.

Take note all ye worshippers of 'Alternative' medicine

Why, the market for this sort of thing is for a very small populationwho believe that products from certain wild animals will have a beneficial effect. To lump it in with Alternative medicine shows a lack of knowledge about the subject

China......Very small population?............Chinese medicine is 'Alternative medicine' in the West and revered by the many lovable and idealistic but gullible and exploited alternative cranks who will believe absolutely anything. Like most 'Traditional' medicine' most Chinese medicine is 'Quack' medicine same as that which has and continues today to grant power, influence and money to wily witch doctors/shamans/apothecaries/health supplement companies/ alternative therapy pedlars worldwide. Maybe 10 to 20% is efficaceous and most of this consists of natural remedies that have already been converted and improved and marketed as mainstream drugs anyway. The rest of it works only through the power of suggestion and the'placebo' effect. I wish I was not a skeptic then it might work for me.......

....!

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Western medicine is the "alternate medicine" the new kid on the block so to say, it's only been around for a very short period in comparison to other systems.

I will grant you the fact that there is a lot of nonsense peddled as medicine including the western system, and bear in mind the drug companies of today aren't interested in cures, they are only interested in the bottom line of the accounts and paying big dividends to themselves and shareholders.

In China, TCM all but died out by the mid 20th century.....it was revived largely by the enthusiasm of the west in the 60s for examining alternative cultures and life-styles. As the Chines economy has bourgeoned this century the "art" - it certainly isn't science - has become immensely popular with the Chinese middle classes who traditionally retain a strong belief in superstition and non-scientific interpretations of the world around them.

There is no such thing a Supplementary, Complimentary or Alternative Medicine (SCAMS) - medicine is only medicine when it has been proved to work. TCM along with virtually all alternative form of therapy has never been shown to work.

it has however resulted in an ever increasing demand for the body parts of endangered species as well has the destruction of many species of endangered plants too. TCM is not the only form of "alternative" therapy that is decimating the natural world, many other people ae claiming ridiculous powers of all sorts of plants and animals, which basically cures no-one and causes death and destruction in the environment.

[canuckamuck]

Just think of how many animals we would still have if the Chinese could just get it up.

[cumgranosalum]

It also appears that CEE4Life - the organisation who's report was published by Nat Geo, have prepared a second report with fresh evidence and allegations of trafficking. As of yet this report is not in the public domain...it was released to the authorities at the beginning of May.

One wonders if this has any bearing on firstly the renewed determination by the authorities and did they have prior knowledge of the cubs in the freezer?

Edited June 2, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[cumgranosalum]

here are the possible penalties those involved could face - CNN were informed by the authorities....

"If they are found attempting to smuggle the tiger cub remains, temple officials could face up to four years in jail and or be fined up to $1,121 (THB40,000), she added."

[cumgranosalum]

the temple is mounting their defence....

"“We have declared all the deaths to the officials over years,” said Supitpong Pakdjarung, a former police colonel who runs the temple’s business operation. “They’ve known about these carcasses for a long time.”" - CNN

I still don't understand...

what part of Buddhist teaching says, "thou shalt keep thine dead tiger cubs in the freezer"?

Edited June 2, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[The Deerhunter]

As usual in the LOS, the reporting raises raises more questions than it answers. We would optimistically expect a full detailed report of what they found instead of misleading and contradictory information. In the case of the former, we will likely be disappointed and expected to be satisfied with the latter.

(1) Bulls head. Protected Gaur or domestic tiger food? Not a difficult question.

(2) Dead pig. Wild pig or domestic tiger food? Ditto!

(3) 40 dead tiger cubs. The article claims them to be both frozen and freshly killed. Which is correct, fresh or frozen? The difference between the two could explain different reasons or intentions. Were they all frozen or all freshly killed or some of each. (Frozen kittens might indicate still born or young dead kept as red herrings to ward off claims of selling tiger parts.

(4) Animal parts. Parts of what animals. Kept for DNA analysis to determine species, did the journo inquire?

(5) Forty tigers have been removed from the Tiger Temple since Monday — seven on Monday and 33 Tuesday. This makes total 50 tigers out of 147 (Huh? Where did the other 10 spring from?)

(6) RF Chip tags. No mention of RF tags at all. Last year there was a big stink over 3 chipped tigers that were not able to be found and the temple stonewalled the authorities on their whereabouts. No info on that. I rather think those three were "harvested" by accident and will never be found.

(7) Apparently about 1/3 of the tigers had been chipped as part of a previous attempt at census.

The market for tiger parts throughout Asia and including right here in LOS is huge. The demand will be for ton lots of adult tiger parts almost all the animal has value but particularly bones, teeth, claws and certain glands & reproductive parts. Skins could be shipped frozen and sold for tanning in protected markets.

It would be nice to see some old-fashioned non culturally sensitive western style investigative journo's on the job. The same with the people doing the actual investigation and DNA check on the "animal parts."

I think the number quoted over a year ago was 147. What if it was really 20 or 50 more and was "commercially managed down" to this same figure. Seizure of all computers, any bank accounts of anyone associated in the the temple management etc etc. But the article does not mention anything like that. Why would we expect it to? Servile journos write down what they are given and don't ask difficult questions of important/powerful/rich people.

[EyesWideOpen]

There are good monks, and I use the term loosely, bad monks and heinous monks. These monks fall into the last category. I hope there is a law whereby the courts can nail every one of them.

They should be prosecuted for 'bringing Buddhism into disrepute'. This heinous activity above and beyond wearing a 'stupa shaped' dress or Buddha images on bloody T shirts. How on earth could this have been allowed to go on for so long?

Easy. A news report here in America just said the temple

made 6 million dollars a year. So clearly a portion of that

money went into the pockets of government officials who

are supposed to control this business. And yes , everyone

with half a brain knew this temple was trafficking tigers

to China.......

[Balance]

The entire leadership in the temple should spend the next five or ten years in a small concrete cage after being publically stripped of their monk status.