davemos Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Hopefully The wild life protection have enough funds to support so many tigers .30000 Us per tiger they wont last long . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hocuspocus Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 What has happened to Buddism in Thailand? I have lost all faith respect for anything to do with monks/temples e.t.c. MONEY is all monks care about these days MONEY. Who can get the most money either legally or illegally. Nothing matters to monks anymore except getting more money than the next monk. Money from credit unions, money from cheating people, money from keeping/ killing endangered animals. Yet you speak to poor Thais and they still will not say anything bad about Monks and will still keep on donating money and things they can't afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemos Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 last thought how many tigers in the wildlife conservation area ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mankondang Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 What has happened to Buddism in Thailand? I have lost all faith respect for anything to do with monks/temples e.t.c. MONEY is all monks care about these days MONEY. Who can get the most money either legally or illegally. Nothing matters to monks anymore except getting more money than the next monk. Money from credit unions, money from cheating people, money from keeping/ killing endangered animals. There is no way anyone can defend or condone what has happened here and the people involved. However, to tarnish all Buddhists with the same brush is a mindset that is based on that something or someone is either 100% good or 100% bad, with nothing in between. It's often termed "black or white thinking", where there are no shades of grey in between. There are good and bad people everywhere, including the Buddhist sanga, and the degree of their goodness, or badness, varies, just like shades of grey do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuanku Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) to find out if there is any place where protected wild animals are raised. Maybe they can start with the Sriracha tiger zoo. The Animal Welfare Institute reported in 2004 that the zoo had been using tigers and elephants in circus shows, including tigers leaping through rings of fire, walking across a double tightrope, parading around a ring on hind legs, and riding on horseback.[2] AWI reported "potentially dangerous human-tiger and human-elephant close interaction", "bizarre multi-species enclosures", tigers being struck with steel poles by trainers and implications that tigers were being bred for export to China.[2] Wikipedia Edited June 3, 2016 by tuanku Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eclipse Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Maligned for having an opinion not mainstream. Very intelligent responses,but quite common on the forum,Unfortunately. Maligned for being a Troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khaowong1 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 If this doesn't shut them down for good, what will it take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taony Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Its two pages ago, but that last article posted says the police are demanding and investigation. Of course! Because everything and everyone has escaped! It was months and months of trying to take the tigers away and now another week of gathering all the evidence!! The culprits are long gone, so good time to start! The whole place should have been locked down a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johpa Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 begs the question, under who's patronage and protection this temple is?I really would like to elaborate regarding the Sangha in general but I am unable here on ThaiVisa.I've lived and worked in three Buddhist countries for almost 15 years and nowhere have I seen so much corruption and criminal activities as in Buddhist temples and among Buddhist monks in Thailand. Monkhood in Thailand is just a path to riches and an escape from legal and moral obligationsYou should hang out or visit at some local rural temples to see less corrupted versions of Buddhism in Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The stuttering parrot Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) Since my first post I am very sorry to read a lot of the ongoing posts which distract from the the main topic. I've got no idea how catholic priests enter this debate or other posts that seem to side track this ongoing storey . Yes we all know about the Chinese culture and superstitions and we all know corrupt monks but in stating your opinions please understand that even though these events happen in all sorts of situations highlighting certain religious or certain beleifs from all over the world.. Yep see my post and I stand by it but there are Monks out there doing great work in their communities whether we have faith or not is not relevant . It's the essence of whatever faith you have or even as a devout atheist it's just being a decent human being that counts. Edited June 3, 2016 by The stuttering parrot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennw Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Well done and lets hope that the "Tiger temple" is prosecuted and those involved brought to justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taony Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) Channel News Asia is reporting charges. Woohoo!! Although,... not sure that means much. Thai police charge 22 with wildlife trafficking at Tiger Temple http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/thai-police-charge-22/2842724.html Edited June 3, 2016 by taony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfaroukh Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 I can't believe they do such a thing, what a shame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 I can't believe they do such a thing, what a shame That's been the problem for the last 20 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentRJ Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 It seems clear to me that there are a number of concerns that should be investigated in this case, not only from a strict, legal point of view, but from a Buddhist moral point of view. I'd consider the following activities to be unconscionable for any Buddhist monk or Buddhist temple organisation to engage in. (1) Deliberately killing, or assisting in the killing, of any creature for whatever reason, whether it be a tiger, a chicken or a worm in the ground. (2) Dispatching or assisting in the trading of a live animal to another party, in the knowledge that it would be slaughtered for whatever purpose. (3) Using money gained from such transactions in order to increase personal wealth. (4) Cruel treatment of the tigers, or any animal, whilst they are in captivity. However, one aspect of this situation I find a bit puzzling is the implication that tigers are in a special category which excludes them from being bred for commercial purposes. I can only assume that the reason for this is that the tiger is a cat, and although a vicious and predatory cat that will instinctively eat humans for breakfast, is nevertheless a cat. People love their cats. We breed crocodiles for their meat, and their skin to make expensive handbags. We have fish farms, chicken farms and cow farms galore, yet no-one would suggest that these creatures are in danger of becoming an endangered species as a result of the promotion of increased demand through farming. When a species of fish in the ocean becomes in short supply, the farming of that fish helps alleviate the problem. I would think, if the farming of tigers is done efficiently on a large enough scale, the poaching of tigers in Nature Reserves would become less economical rather than more economical, and this would result in a preservation of the tiger in the wild because the low price on offer would reduce the incentive to poach in the face of the severe penalties for poaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docno Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 What has happened to Buddism in Thailand? I have lost all faith respect for anything to do with monks/temples e.t.c. MONEY is all monks care about these days MONEY. Who can get the most money either legally or illegally. Nothing matters to monks anymore except getting more money than the next monk. Money from credit unions, money from cheating people, money from keeping/ killing endangered animals. The same thing happened in Christianity centuries ago... priests spending all their time selling 'indulgences' and cardinals becoming wealthy landowners, etc. It was part of the impetus for the Reformation. Perhaps with the spate of corruption and misbehaviour cases involving monks in Thailand there will finally be a drive to reform the sangha there... or perhaps I'm being naive. Still, one can only hope... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostmebike Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Close this place now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM07 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) Attention Buddha Bashers: Imagine a WestVisa website popular among Thias. Now imagine a news item about the concealment from the civil authorities of child-molesting priests by a disgustingly filthy rich Farang religion. Maybe an item about the victimization of the elderly, lonely and desperate by evangelical TV thieves, or perhaps an item about Freddie Phelps' Christians demonstrating their hate for Gays. Draw some interesting comments, huh? (let the tap-dancing begin) Yeah, WOULD be drawing some interesting comments from ME and other "farang" as well! What is your point? That Thais obviously do not give 2 hot sh1ts about all of this? Edited June 4, 2016 by DM07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winniedapu Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) I just don't know any more. I never really understood Thailand inasmuch as I could never really relate to the mindset at all but the criminal and venal nature of Thais seems to know no bounds since Prayuth and his merry band of robbers took over. It must mean something... It's almost as if we're on a bicycle ride to being a failed state and somebody stole the brakes. Law and order is falling apart faster than you can say "let's make a quick buck". Perhaps the likelihood of being nabbed by either of what are probably the 2 biggest and most criminal mafias in Thailand are so low that the risk becomes worth it. I just don't know any more... This place is very quickly becoming a bit of a worry and every day it seems to be going downhill faster. W Edited June 4, 2016 by Winniedapu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveAustin Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 What has happened to Buddism in Thailand? I have lost all faith respect for anything to do with monks/temples e.t.c. MONEY is all monks care about these days MONEY. Who can get the most money either legally or illegally. Nothing matters to monks anymore except getting more money than the next monk. Money from credit unions, money from cheating people, money from keeping/ killing endangered animals. Nothing. Same same, business as usual. It's just things are more likely to be reported and shared nowadays. They're not all up to no good, but the baht will always be a tempter for even the most sure mind. As soon as you see a long-term monk using a phone or doing anything other than observing the tenets of Buddhism, he is not a monk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dageurreotype Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) If this doesn't shut them down for good, what will it take? Lots more international exposure regarding the fact of this and the fact that they are now advertising that although the temple is closed, visitors can now go to their new location at a 'safari park'! Shocking! 18 retweets9 likes Reply Retweeted 18 Liked 9 More Edwin Wiek @EdwinWiek 15h15 hours ago If you have followed my posts over the last week and are shocked. This #TigerTemple was issued a legal zoo license only a few weeks ago! 63 retweets38 likes Reply Retweeted 63 Like 38 More Edwin Wiek @EdwinWiek 15h15 hours ago ...and more found at the #TigerTemple today... No comments. 51 retweets16 likes Reply Retweet 51 Like 16 More Edwin Wiek Retweeted Ryn C. @Ryn_writes 17h17 hours ago 9 tigers have just left the temple. The last 9 tigers (out of 137) to be removed tomorrow. #thailand #TigerTemple 34 retweets21 likes Reply Retweet 34 Like 21 More Edwin Wiek @EdwinWiek 17h17 hours ago Thank you @TheBigChilliMag for your years of support to our cause! Who would have known it was gonna happen so quick 29 retweets34 likes Reply Retweeted 29 Like 34 More Edwin Wiek @EdwinWiek 18h18 hours ago DNP rangers found dead body of a leopard and a bear today in another freezer at #TigerTemple. The drama doesn't stop. 38 retweets6 likes Reply Retweet 38 Like 6 More Edwin Wiek Retweeted Jane Lin @JaneBKK 18h18 hours ago @CodSatrusayang @EdwinWiek one of the guards told me Luang Ta is still in premises of #tigertemple. View conversation 3 retweets2 likes Reply Retweet 3 Like 2 More Edwin Wiek @EdwinWiek 18h18 hours ago Tomorrow in the news: Zoo license of Tiger Temple Co. Ltd. will not be revoked. #Thailand 5 retweets1 like Reply Retweet 5 Like 1 More Edwin Wiek Retweeted Cod Satrusayang @CodSatrusayang 21h21 hours ago Wildlife officials overseeing #TigerTemple operation say that some of removed tigers just gave birth but no signs of cubs at temple. 18 retweets3 likes Reply Retweet 18 Like 3 More Edwin Wiek Retweeted Ryn C. @Ryn_writes 19h19 hours ago UNEP statement on discovery of tiger cub bodies in Thailand #TigerTemple http://unep.org/stories/WorldEnvironmentDay/UNEP-statement-on-discovery-of-tiger-cub-bodies-in-Thailand.asp … 8 retweets2 likes Reply Retweet 8 Like 2 More Edwin Wiek Retweeted Nirmal Ghosh @karmanomad 21h21 hours ago Scale of criminality at #Thailand #TigerTemple has emerged & it's staggering. Tourists & those who made films glorifying the scam, take note 48 retweets30 likes Reply Retweet 48 Like 30 More Edwin Wiek Retweeted Steve Herman @W7VOA Jun 2Central Region, Singapore Discovery of 70 dead #tiger cubs plus skins, talismans in #Thailand Buddhist temple is "a shock," says @UNEP @UNODC joint statement. 32 retweets7 likes Reply Retweeted 32 Like 7 More Edwin Wiek Retweeted Pauline Verheij @PaulineVerheij 24h24 hours ago Saga of Thai tiger temple horror ongoing: 50 more dead tiger cubs found in jars https://www.facebook.com/WildlifeFriendsFoundation/posts/10153482236162657:0 … 35 retweets6 likes Reply Retweet 35 Like 6 More Edwin Wiek @EdwinWiek Jun 2 Ok ready for this one?: One of the arrested man with tiger parts at #TigerTemple yesterday seems to be a Border Police Officer... 38 retweets18 likes Reply Retweeted 38 Like 18 More Edited June 4, 2016 by dageurreotype Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River7471 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 If they used a good portion of the money to help some of the mothers I have seen there holding children panhandling then I'd say the using the Tigers to generate income was justifiable. I used to be critical of the idea of the Catholic church accepting money for sins, but when you think of the charity work done with that money. As a deist, it's probably a function of Higher Power and inspiration to satisfy the needs of the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 If they used a good portion of the money to help some of the mothers I have seen there holding children panhandling then I'd say the using the Tigers to generate income was justifiable. I used to be critical of the idea of the Catholic church accepting money for sins, but when you think of the charity work done with that money. As a deist, it's probably a function of Higher Power and inspiration to satisfy the needs of the poor. Has nothing to do with the issues here and I believe you really have no idea what has been going on in the temple for the last 15 to 20 years..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumbastheycome Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Catalogue everything illegal burn it then demolish the temple as it was used for nothing else but a money making exercise to profit off the suffering and exploitation of these beautiful animals. Nothing to do with the Buddhist faith and for those who have lost their jobs well off to the bangkok Hilton to reflect on what cruelty they have inflicted on these noble beasts for some superstitious beliefs , There is nothing superstitious about an illicit and bogus business except that it was based on supplying a market which in turn is based on "superstition" and quackery. This was Business ! Rather than demolish maybe be better to maintain the facility in a genuine mode and as part of the attraction add a Museum of Horrors including large pictures of all and any even remotely originally found to be guilty. Such a facility would retain International support, continueas a Tourist attraction and save more face for Thailand than demolition and subsequent attempts to pretend it never happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumbastheycome Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 It seems clear to me that there are a number of concerns that should be investigated in this case, not only from a strict, legal point of view, but from a Buddhist moral point of view. I'd consider the following activities to be unconscionable for any Buddhist monk or Buddhist temple organisation to engage in. (1) Deliberately killing, or assisting in the killing, of any creature for whatever reason, whether it be a tiger, a chicken or a worm in the ground. (2) Dispatching or assisting in the trading of a live animal to another party, in the knowledge that it would be slaughtered for whatever purpose. (3) Using money gained from such transactions in order to increase personal wealth. (4) Cruel treatment of the tigers, or any animal, whilst they are in captivity. However, one aspect of this situation I find a bit puzzling is the implication that tigers are in a special category which excludes them from being bred for commercial purposes. I can only assume that the reason for this is that the tiger is a cat, and although a vicious and predatory cat that will instinctively eat humans for breakfast, is nevertheless a cat. People love their cats. We breed crocodiles for their meat, and their skin to make expensive handbags. We have fish farms, chicken farms and cow farms galore, yet no-one would suggest that these creatures are in danger of becoming an endangered species as a result of the promotion of increased demand through farming. When a species of fish in the ocean becomes in short supply, the farming of that fish helps alleviate the problem. I would think, if the farming of tigers is done efficiently on a large enough scale, the poaching of tigers in Nature Reserves would become less economical rather than more economical, and this would result in a preservation of the tiger in the wild because the low price on offer would reduce the incentive to poach in the face of the severe penalties for poaching. The issue is that these animals are indeed in a special catagory as a protected species. And the facility was being operated under the auspices of a charitably funded zoo for the sake of preservation." Farming" such species as crocodile, fish, chickens etc as an example strikes me as invalid justification. Crocodile farms or any other can and do also offer themselves as Tourist Attractions but do so without inviting funding under the guise of being a zoo. I can accept that "farming" tiger could be as viable as crocodile but fortunately for tiger as both a protected species and no evidence of any valid reason to raise them for slaughter it would fly in the face of Internation laws. Besides which the reality of having perhaps multiple large scale farms containg a large number of indeed potentially dangerous fast moving predators might create some containment concern with near neighbours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentRJ Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 It seems clear to me that there are a number of concerns that should be investigated in this case, not only from a strict, legal point of view, but from a Buddhist moral point of view. I'd consider the following activities to be unconscionable for any Buddhist monk or Buddhist temple organisation to engage in. (1) Deliberately killing, or assisting in the killing, of any creature for whatever reason, whether it be a tiger, a chicken or a worm in the ground. (2) Dispatching or assisting in the trading of a live animal to another party, in the knowledge that it would be slaughtered for whatever purpose. (3) Using money gained from such transactions in order to increase personal wealth. (4) Cruel treatment of the tigers, or any animal, whilst they are in captivity. However, one aspect of this situation I find a bit puzzling is the implication that tigers are in a special category which excludes them from being bred for commercial purposes. I can only assume that the reason for this is that the tiger is a cat, and although a vicious and predatory cat that will instinctively eat humans for breakfast, is nevertheless a cat. People love their cats. We breed crocodiles for their meat, and their skin to make expensive handbags. We have fish farms, chicken farms and cow farms galore, yet no-one would suggest that these creatures are in danger of becoming an endangered species as a result of the promotion of increased demand through farming. When a species of fish in the ocean becomes in short supply, the farming of that fish helps alleviate the problem. I would think, if the farming of tigers is done efficiently on a large enough scale, the poaching of tigers in Nature Reserves would become less economical rather than more economical, and this would result in a preservation of the tiger in the wild because the low price on offer would reduce the incentive to poach in the face of the severe penalties for poaching. The issue is that these animals are indeed in a special catagory as a protected species. And the facility was being operated under the auspices of a charitably funded zoo for the sake of preservation." Farming" such species as crocodile, fish, chickens etc as an example strikes me as invalid justification. Crocodile farms or any other can and do also offer themselves as Tourist Attractions but do so without inviting funding under the guise of being a zoo. I can accept that "farming" tiger could be as viable as crocodile but fortunately for tiger as both a protected species and no evidence of any valid reason to raise them for slaughter it would fly in the face of Internation laws. Besides which the reality of having perhaps multiple large scale farms containg a large number of indeed potentially dangerous fast moving predators might create some containment concern with near neighbours! The saltwater crocodile in Australia is a protected species in the wild. Hunting is forbidden. However there are numerous crocodile farms in Australia that breed crocodiles to sell their skins. The existence of these farms is claimed to take the pressure off the crocodiles in the wild, which might otherwise be hunted for their valuable skins which can sometimes end up be used to create $50,000 handbags. Here's an interesting article on one such farm, run by someone who's a wildlife conservationist. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/weekend-australian-magazine/saltwater-crocodiles-high-fashion-meets-evolutionary-design/news-story/5dd554716513843885959a63afb150f0 "Hartley’s owner-operator Angela Freeman walks over to a shed where she raises up to 1000 hatchlings a year, from egg incubator to temperature-controlled hatchling tub to concrete holding pen. “Some NT farms are into the 20,000 [hatchling] bracket or more,” she says. She and her husband, Peter, have created a boutique “zero environmental impact” farm. Recycled water. Recycled sewage systems. Fewer skins, better quality, with production methods that attract increasingly ethical fashion buyers. She’s a passionate wildlife conservationist whose job entails skinning 1000 crocodiles a year. “It’s amazing,” says Hartley’s farm manager, Nick Stevens. “We’ll be feeding our [crocodiles] chicken heads one minute and the next we’ll have the directors of Hermès or Louis Vuitton here talking about $50,000 handbags.” Why not adopt the same approach with tigers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 It seems clear to me that there are a number of concerns that should be investigated in this case, not only from a strict, legal point of view, but from a Buddhist moral point of view. I'd consider the following activities to be unconscionable for any Buddhist monk or Buddhist temple organisation to engage in. (1) Deliberately killing, or assisting in the killing, of any creature for whatever reason, whether it be a tiger, a chicken or a worm in the ground. (2) Dispatching or assisting in the trading of a live animal to another party, in the knowledge that it would be slaughtered for whatever purpose. (3) Using money gained from such transactions in order to increase personal wealth. (4) Cruel treatment of the tigers, or any animal, whilst they are in captivity. However, one aspect of this situation I find a bit puzzling is the implication that tigers are in a special category which excludes them from being bred for commercial purposes. I can only assume that the reason for this is that the tiger is a cat, and although a vicious and predatory cat that will instinctively eat humans for breakfast, is nevertheless a cat. People love their cats. We breed crocodiles for their meat, and their skin to make expensive handbags. We have fish farms, chicken farms and cow farms galore, yet no-one would suggest that these creatures are in danger of becoming an endangered species as a result of the promotion of increased demand through farming. When a species of fish in the ocean becomes in short supply, the farming of that fish helps alleviate the problem. I would think, if the farming of tigers is done efficiently on a large enough scale, the poaching of tigers in Nature Reserves would become less economical rather than more economical, and this would result in a preservation of the tiger in the wild because the low price on offer would reduce the incentive to poach in the face of the severe penalties for poaching. The issue is that these animals are indeed in a special catagory as a protected species. And the facility was being operated under the auspices of a charitably funded zoo for the sake of preservation." Farming" such species as crocodile, fish, chickens etc as an example strikes me as invalid justification. Crocodile farms or any other can and do also offer themselves as Tourist Attractions but do so without inviting funding under the guise of being a zoo. I can accept that "farming" tiger could be as viable as crocodile but fortunately for tiger as both a protected species and no evidence of any valid reason to raise them for slaughter it would fly in the face of Internation laws. Besides which the reality of having perhaps multiple large scale farms containg a large number of indeed potentially dangerous fast moving predators might create some containment concern with near neighbours! The saltwater crocodile in Australia is a protected species in the wild. Hunting is forbidden. However there are numerous crocodile farms in Australia that breed crocodiles to sell their skins. The existence of these farms is claimed to take the pressure off the crocodiles in the wild, which might otherwise be hunted for their valuable skins which can sometimes end up be used to create $50,000 handbags. Here's an interesting article on one such farm, run by someone who's a wildlife conservationist. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/weekend-australian-magazine/saltwater-crocodiles-high-fashion-meets-evolutionary-design/news-story/5dd554716513843885959a63afb150f0 "Hartley’s owner-operator Angela Freeman walks over to a shed where she raises up to 1000 hatchlings a year, from egg incubator to temperature-controlled hatchling tub to concrete holding pen. “Some NT farms are into the 20,000 [hatchling] bracket or more,” she says. She and her husband, Peter, have created a boutique “zero environmental impact” farm. Recycled water. Recycled sewage systems. Fewer skins, better quality, with production methods that attract increasingly ethical fashion buyers. She’s a passionate wildlife conservationist whose job entails skinning 1000 crocodiles a year. “It’s amazing,” says Hartley’s farm manager, Nick Stevens. “We’ll be feeding our [crocodiles] chicken heads one minute and the next we’ll have the directors of Hermès or Louis Vuitton here talking about $50,000 handbags.” Why not adopt the same approach with tigers? The situation is not the same. The Salty is NOT an ENDANGERED species in Australia. The reason for this is the protection of the croc in Oz has been successful. The Tiger in S.E Asia is in a completely different situation (as is the salty in Thailand for that matter). the effect of farming tigers has a negative effect on the situation with the animals in the wild. This isn't simply a game of counting how many tigers there are - it is about having the functioning eco-systems in which tigers are the apex predators. There is also a huge difference between farming a reptile like a croc and a mammal like the Tiger. 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VincentRJ Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 The situation is not the same. There is also a huge difference between farming a reptile like a croc and a mammal like the Tiger. We know that a tiger is not the same as a crocodile, but they are both dangerous creatures which are difficult to manage. I have never visited a crocodile farm where visitors are allowed to stroke the crocodiles or cuddle up to them, but it seems this is possible with the tiger. I can't see why breeding tigers in captivity should be more difficult, over all, than breeding crocodiles in captivity, although the challenges are obviously different. The Salty is NOT an ENDANGERED species in Australia. The reason for this is the protection of the croc in Oz has been successful. It certainly was an endangered species before farming began. Between 1946 and about 1958, something like 80,000 skins went out. And then the hunting just kept on going. The crocodile population plummeted. By the 1970s, the animals were in danger of extinction in Australia. The Tiger in S.E Asia is in a completely different situation (as is the salty in Thailand for that matter). the effect of farming tigers has a negative effect on the situation with the animals in the wild. This isn't simply a game of counting how many tigers there are - it is about having the functioning eco-systems in which tigers are the apex predators. Again, it's obvious that one can't have animals in the wild if there's no wild. One has to have protected reservation areas for them to breed naturally and roam around. However, if there is a market for the animal product, as there is for both crocodiles and tigers, then meeting the demand for the animal products should relieve the pressure on the animals in the wild, from poachers. The idea that farming tigers in order to meet the demand for its skins and other products would have a negative effect on animals in the wild, simply doesn't make sense. That's what's puzzling me. Here's a bit of history from Wikipedia relating to the alligator. Highlights in bold are mine. "Though not truly domesticated, alligators and crocodiles have been bred in farms since at least the early 20th century. Most of these early businesses, such as St. Augustine Alligator Farm Zoological Park, established in 1893, were farms in name only, primarily keeping alligators and crocodiles as a tourist attraction. Only in the 1960s did commercial operations that either harvested eggs from the wild or bred alligators on-site begin to appear. This was largely driven by diminishing stocks of wild alligators, which had been hunted nearly to extinction by that time. Farming alligators and crocodiles first grew out of the demand for skins, which can fetch hundreds of dollars each. But alligator and crocodile meat, long a part of Southern cooking (especially Cajun cuisine)[5] and some Asian and African cuisines, began to be sold and shipped to markets unfamiliar with crocodilian meat. Chinese cuisine based on traditional Chinese medicine considers the meat to be a curative food for colds and cancer prevention, although there is no scientific evidence to support this. Alligator farming has minimal adverse effects on the environment, and has at least two positive direct effects on alligator conservation. Because the luxury goods industry has a reliable stream of product, illegal poaching is reduced. Juvenile crocodilians can also be released into the wild to support a steady population. Wild alligator conservation has also benefited indirectly from farming. Ranching businesses protect alligator habitats to take care of nesting sites. The fiscal incentive to keep a healthy environment for breeding alligators means that the environment and its wildlife are seen as an economic resource. This can augment the government’s willingness to take care of crocodilian populations. Animals other than crocodilians may benefit from a similar application of sustainable and ethical farming." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodile_farm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 The situation is not the same. There is also a huge difference between farming a reptile like a croc and a mammal like the Tiger. We know that a tiger is not the same as a crocodile, but they are both dangerous creatures which are difficult to manage. I have never visited a crocodile farm where visitors are allowed to stroke the crocodiles or cuddle up to them, but it seems this is possible with the tiger. I can't see why breeding tigers in captivity should be more difficult, over all, than breeding crocodiles in captivity, although the challenges are obviously different. The Salty is NOT an ENDANGERED species in Australia. The reason for this is the protection of the croc in Oz has been successful. It certainly was an endangered species before farming began. Between 1946 and about 1958, something like 80,000 skins went out. And then the hunting just kept on going. The crocodile population plummeted. By the 1970s, the animals were in danger of extinction in Australia. The Tiger in S.E Asia is in a completely different situation (as is the salty in Thailand for that matter). the effect of farming tigers has a negative effect on the situation with the animals in the wild. This isn't simply a game of counting how many tigers there are - it is about having the functioning eco-systems in which tigers are the apex predators. Again, it's obvious that one can't have animals in the wild if there's no wild. One has to have protected reservation areas for them to breed naturally and roam around. However, if there is a market for the animal product, as there is for both crocodiles and tigers, then meeting the demand for the animal products should relieve the pressure on the animals in the wild, from poachers. The idea that farming tigers in order to meet the demand for its skins and other products would have a negative effect on animals in the wild, simply doesn't make sense. That's what's puzzling me. Here's a bit of history from Wikipedia relating to the alligator. Highlights in bold are mine. "Though not truly domesticated, alligators and crocodiles have been bred in farms since at least the early 20th century. Most of these early businesses, such as St. Augustine Alligator Farm Zoological Park, established in 1893, were farms in name only, primarily keeping alligators and crocodiles as a tourist attraction. Only in the 1960s did commercial operations that either harvested eggs from the wild or bred alligators on-site begin to appear. This was largely driven by diminishing stocks of wild alligators, which had been hunted nearly to extinction by that time. Farming alligators and crocodiles first grew out of the demand for skins, which can fetch hundreds of dollars each. But alligator and crocodile meat, long a part of Southern cooking (especially Cajun cuisine)[5] and some Asian and African cuisines, began to be sold and shipped to markets unfamiliar with crocodilian meat. Chinese cuisine based on traditional Chinese medicine considers the meat to be a curative food for colds and cancer prevention, although there is no scientific evidence to support this. Alligator farming has minimal adverse effects on the environment, and has at least two positive direct effects on alligator conservation. Because the luxury goods industry has a reliable stream of product, illegal poaching is reduced. Juvenile crocodilians can also be released into the wild to support a steady population. Wild alligator conservation has also benefited indirectly from farming. Ranching businesses protect alligator habitats to take care of nesting sites. The fiscal incentive to keep a healthy environment for breeding alligators means that the environment and its wildlife are seen as an economic resource. This can augment the government’s willingness to take care of crocodilian populations. Animals other than crocodilians may benefit from a similar application of sustainable and ethical farming." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodile_farm You seem to think there is a link between the farming of Salties and conservation - there isn't - farming has been done in Oz since the 19th C......the crocs have regained there status because of conservation of their environment. you seem to be franticly googling to find stuff you think supports your claims - what it shows is that you don't understand the basic issues - there is a difference between "search" and "research" - may I suggest you get a grounding in the topic first - it will reduce to mount of nonsense and cut and paste you need to do. I don't have time at present but just about every aspect of your argument is flawed - largely because you don't know what you are looking for - you are just hoping that some of your cut and pastes might support your stance. A real opinion is derived from research - you just have a prejudged position and post that, you are looking round for items to support it - you are doing it backwards. start again at the beginning and you'll get a much better picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentRJ Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 The situation is not the same. There is also a huge difference between farming a reptile like a croc and a mammal like the Tiger. We know that a tiger is not the same as a crocodile, but they are both dangerous creatures which are difficult to manage. I have never visited a crocodile farm where visitors are allowed to stroke the crocodiles or cuddle up to them, but it seems this is possible with the tiger. I can't see why breeding tigers in captivity should be more difficult, over all, than breeding crocodiles in captivity, although the challenges are obviously different. You seem to think there is a link between the farming of Salties and conservation - there isn't - farming has been done in Oz since the 19th C......the crocs have regained there status because of conservation of their environment. you seem to be franticly googling to find stuff you think supports your claims - what it shows is that you don't understand the basic issues - there is a difference between "search" and "research" - may I suggest you get a grounding in the topic first - it will reduce to mount of nonsense and cut and paste you need to do. I don't have time at present but just about every aspect of your argument is flawed - largely because you don't know what you are looking for - you are just hoping that some of your cut and pastes might support your stance. A real opinion is derived from research - you just have a prejudged position and post that, you are looking round for items to support it - you are doing it backwards. start again at the beginning and you'll get a much better picture Sorry! I only deal with facts, and opinions that are supported by facts. All the googling I've done on this issue is simply to find authoritative sources which address the issue, so that I might learn if there is some evidence that implies that farming and breeding an endangered species has a negative effect on the survival of that species in the wild. I can find no such evidence that farming animals has a negative effect on their survival in the wild. If you can find the evidence, then please provide a link, not a link to a mere opinion, but a link to to real evidence. It is understood that farming alone will not ensure the survival of a species in the wild. I've never suggested this is the case. A ban on the hunting of the endangered species is of course necessary. The farming of the animal, in an efficient manner, which should reduce the price of the product, simply makes poaching, with the risk of prosecution, less attractive. What's the problem? Surely that's not difficult to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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