Bringing Thaksin To Account

[ColPyat]

Wait and see boys, Surayud may be slow but he's sure.

When is he then investigating himself, especially the '92 accusations ? Transparently, please.

[jumnien]

Well history does tell us that this army has killed democracy advocates in the past. Believe me, they will use any investigations to harass their opponents and none to pursue justice.

[Plus]

Well history does tell us that this army has killed democracy advocates in the past. Believe me, they will use any investigations to harass their opponents and none to pursue justice.

One of their accomplishments was to RESTORE the sense of justice in this country.

[marshbags]

B.Post Today 24-08-07

Quote:-

Thaksin is target in drug war probe

A three-man investigation believes it can link former premier Thaksin Shinawatra directly to "murders" during the government's 2003 war on drugs. Anucha Charoenpo interviews one of three top investigators.

National human rights commissioner Wasant Panich was one of three human rights defenders who asked Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont to set up a panel to investigate the Thaksin government's war on drugs.

Question (Anucha): What was your role in the establishment of the independent committee?

Answer (Wasant): It was me, Kraisak Choonhavan [former senator of Nakhon Ratchasima province] and Somchai Hom-laor [chairman of the Human Rights and Development Foundation] who went to Government House to meet the prime minister in November last year. We wanted him to investigate drugs-related murder cases under the Thaksin government seriously and wanted Thailand to ratify the international criminal court treaty in order to help prevent a recurrence of such mass killings in the future. The people involved in this situation should also be taken to this court.

Unquote.

Ref. url for full the conplete article:-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=121070

Everyone with any unbiased intelligence already have known this all along of course.

Yet more good news on the ongoing preceedings in the quest for justice for all the victims and their families and the

" Bringing to Account of Thaksin on the E.J.K,s "

Expect other similar developments in all the other H.Rights Offences in due course.

He oversaw and encouraged, rather than failed to stop these horrific crimes as the CEO ( in total control of all such incidents) and with the full knowledge of what happened during his premiership.

Let no one be under the illusion that he wasn,t, but just in case, his reputation endorses his authoritarism on All that happened along with self incriminating evidence

marshbags

Edited August 24, 2007 by marshbags

[jumnien]

"Independent committee" - really? I suppose there is an independent committee to advise the army back to the barracks as well?

[marshbags]

"Independent committee" - really? I suppose there is an independent committee to advise the army back to the barracks as well?

Apart from your "suppose " question belonging in another thread to facilitate an in depth reply from it,s participants.

This investigation will only deal with the EJK,s.

It will investigate and present it,s findings / report to the incoming government for possible legal action.

I,ll quote the relevant part for you, plus alternative action that can / should be taken if they choose not to act on the results.

Quote

Q: How much authority does the committee have?

A: As we understand it, the committee only has the authority to investigate the killings and to report the outcome to the next government with the possibility that it may or may not take legal action against those people involved. But for us, it's better than doing nothing as at least we think it will be able to raise awareness about the matter in society.

Q: If the next prime minister and government do not want to do anything against the accused, what will you do?

A: The new constitution opens a channel for people in general to file lawsuits with the courts of justice against those who created government policy which affected people's lives. But we can do this after an organic law comes out. The National Human Rights Commission can represent these people.

Unquote.

Taken from url:-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=121070

marshbags

P.S.

100,000 baht is all that the victims families will get under the Compensation for Victims of Crime Act and unless they can win the fight for more, along with other important humane support, that,s it ?????????????

<deleted> :realangry:and for everyone of them

Edited August 24, 2007 by marshbags

[younghusband]

100,000 baht is all that the victims families will get under the Compensation for Victims of Crime Act and unless they can win the fight for more, along with other important humane support, that,s it ?????????????

And how much I wonder will the families get of the vastly greater number being victims of the drug trade, lives ruined and communities ravaged.In all your many posts on the subject you never do more than pay a cursory acknowledgement of this.We know the drugs war killings were a major human rights abuse but the truth has to be faced up to of its realities.On this very forum it has been denied that most of the victims were involved in drug trafficking, that most Thais supported the campaign and that support/connivance was provided from many influential persons.Unfortunately all these denials fly in the face of truth.

My impression is that you are a very sincere but rather naive person.The whole world and its dog knows that the current investigation is primarily a tactic in the great political match now in play.The elite have no real interest or intent in following this through save as an expedient to disgrace Thaksin.It will be quietly dropped eventually.My sympathies are with you and I readily agree this is a real crime for which Thaksin should be held accountable, along with others.But it is important for your credibility to face up to some painful truths which to date in your campaign I'm afraid you have almost totally ignored.If you a little more honest believe me your credibility will be enhanced.

IMHO of course

[marshbags]

100,000 baht is all that the victims families will get under the Compensation for Victims of Crime Act and unless they can win the fight for more, along with other important humane support, that,s it ?????????????

And how much I wonder will the families get of the vastly greater number being victims of the drug trade, lives ruined and communities ravaged.In all your many posts on the subject you never do more than pay a cursory acknowledgement of this.We know the drugs war killings were a major human rights abuse but the truth has to be faced up to of its realities.On this very forum it has been denied that most of the victims were involved in drug trafficking, that most Thais supported the campaign and that support/connivance was provided from many influential persons.Unfortunately all these denials fly in the face of truth.

There are as i am sure you already know, several threads ongoing, debating what you remark on.

This thread is purposely titled " Bringing Thaksin To Account " and deals with the E.J.K,s.

If you wish to read up on the other related threads you will find observations on my thoughts about the other side regarding the effects on communities not only in Thailand but the world over.

My impression is that you are a very sincere but rather naive person.The whole world and its dog knows that the current investigation is primarily a tactic in the great political match now in play.The elite have no real interest or intent in following this through save as an expedient to disgrace Thaksin.It will be quietly dropped eventually.My sympathies are with you and I readily agree this is a real crime for which Thaksin should be held accountable, along with others.But it is important for your credibility to face up to some painful truths which to date in your campaign I'm afraid you have almost totally ignored.If you a little more honest believe me your credibility will be enhanced.

Regarding being naive, may i suggest some of your observations in this post could well fit in with the meaning of the word.

I will not judge you on this reference as it is not of importance, one way or the other, and more to the point does not do credit to the E.J.K. wrong doings and why they happened.

Honesty and Truth were well and truly forgotten during the implimentation of this evil and vile vendetta for self enhancement by a now exiled despot while silencing the victims to prevent them identifying the Puyai at the top of the ladder / drug trade,

and using the victims as nothing more than expendable cannon fodder, but then again his attempts to let the world know how wise and astute a leader he alledgedly was, have been his downfall..........BIG TIME

IMHO of course

You are entitled to this and i in turn am entitled to disagree.

Just as reminder for you, most of what happened is recorded in the various media channels he unwisely used and will provide solid evidence in the pursuing of justice and accountability.

marshbags

Edited August 24, 2007 by marshbags

[younghusband]

Sadly the response above speaks for itself, not even a glimmer of recognition that a more truthful and contextual approach might enhance his credibility.Still his heart is in the right place.

[Siripon]

100,000 baht is all that the victims families will get under the Compensation for Victims of Crime Act and unless they can win the fight for more, along with other important humane support, that,s it ?????????????

And how much I wonder will the families get of the vastly greater number being victims of the drug trade, lives ruined and communities ravaged.In all your many posts on the subject you never do more than pay a cursory acknowledgement of this.We know the drugs war killings were a major human rights abuse but the truth has to be faced up to of its realities.On this very forum it has been denied that most of the victims were involved in drug trafficking, that most Thais supported the campaign and that support/connivance was provided from many influential persons.Unfortunately all these denials fly in the face of truth.

My impression is that you are a very sincere but rather naive person.The whole world and its dog knows that the current investigation is primarily a tactic in the great political match now in play.The elite have no real interest or intent in following this through save as an expedient to disgrace Thaksin.It will be quietly dropped eventually.My sympathies are with you and I readily agree this is a real crime for which Thaksin should be held accountable, along with others.But it is important for your credibility to face up to some painful truths which to date in your campaign I'm afraid you have almost totally ignored.If you a little more honest believe me your credibility will be enhanced.

IMHO of course

Does IMHO in your case stand for 'in my honest opinion' or 'in my humble opinion'? Presumably it's the former as the latter would be an oxymoron in your case. To enhance your credibility please offer some evidence and statistics to back up your views. You've been wrong so far regarding your prediction of no party dissolution and no investigations into the drugs war.

IYHO what percentage of those killed were actively involved in the drugs trade?

And from what base do you arrive at your figures?

What percentage were involved in heroin as opposed to methamphetamines or ganja?

How many users really died from methamphetamine abuse?

[hammered]

I do welcome the investigation into the Thaksin administrations drug war. However, if Thailand has suddenly found a desire to investigate cases of extreme human rights violations I do wonder why not a murmur has been heard over the recently chosen head of the PPP? I acknowledge that it would be rare that a government would investigate its own offenders anywhere in the world but the fact that a government opponent with a to say the least higly questionable record on human rights abuses is left untouched on this matter when this matter sems to be in vogue does put into perspective the newly discovered desire to prosecute those who deny people the basic human right of life imho.

To not even see any newspaper highlighting this issue all over its front page doesnt exactly say much for their championing of the rights of those slaughtered. In fact they seem more interested in turning the new PPP leader into a minor celebrity than asking the deep rooted questions that need asking. Again I say I can understand under a military government or any government for that matter why the media may not be so willing to criticise any government supporter re human rights cases but if they are offering a free pass to an easy target, the question needs to be asked of how much they really want to exorcise the ghosts of past death squads. Dont get me wrong. I do not criticise the invstigation into the deaths of the previous regime but do question the lack of will to look at similar cases involving similar offences even ones that politcally would be easy to examine.

[hammered]

100,000 baht is all that the victims families will get under the Compensation for Victims of Crime Act and unless they can win the fight for more, along with other important humane support, that,s it ?????????????

And how much I wonder will the families get of the vastly greater number being victims of the drug trade, lives ruined and communities ravaged.In all your many posts on the subject you never do more than pay a cursory acknowledgement of this.We know the drugs war killings were a major human rights abuse but the truth has to be faced up to of its realities.On this very forum it has been denied that most of the victims were involved in drug trafficking, that most Thais supported the campaign and that support/connivance was provided from many influential persons.Unfortunately all these denials fly in the face of truth.

My impression is that you are a very sincere but rather naive person.The whole world and its dog knows that the current investigation is primarily a tactic in the great political match now in play.The elite have no real interest or intent in following this through save as an expedient to disgrace Thaksin.It will be quietly dropped eventually.My sympathies are with you and I readily agree this is a real crime for which Thaksin should be held accountable, along with others.But it is important for your credibility to face up to some painful truths which to date in your campaign I'm afraid you have almost totally ignored.If you a little more honest believe me your credibility will be enhanced.

IMHO of course

Does IMHO in your case stand for 'in my honest opinion' or 'in my humble opinion'? Presumably it's the former as the latter would be an oxymoron in your case. To enhance your credibility please offer some evidence and statistics to back up your views. You've been wrong so far regarding your prediction of no party dissolution and no investigations into the drugs war.

IYHO what percentage of those killed were actively involved in the drugs trade?

And from what base do you arrive at your figures?

What percentage were involved in heroin as opposed to methamphetamines or ganja?

How many users really died from methamphetamine abuse?

Unfortunately and sadly nobody will ever know what you ask for.

Only today I was re-reading the account of the case from Ayuthaya of the raid led by recently selected deputy leader number one of the PPP. A house with an elderly couple, a child and a middle aged woman and a refrigerator in sprayed with over two hundred bullets by the force led by our intrepid and whiter than white hero (remember not to mention the business his family is involved in in Chiang Rai). Not even a whiff of ganja found. There are the few cases we hear of. However there are so many we do not. Interesting that the former natural resources minister (yeah he and his family know a bit about making money from what could be termed "natural resources") didnt even consider resigning and the PM of the people didnt even consider firing him in what but for the grace of god could well have been a murderous assault on a totally innocent family.

[blaze]

100,000 baht is all that the victims families will get under the Compensation for Victims of Crime Act and unless they can win the fight for more, along with other important humane support, that,s it ?????????????

And how much I wonder will the families get of the vastly greater number being victims of the drug trade, lives ruined and communities ravaged.In all your many posts on the subject you never do more than pay a cursory acknowledgement of this.We know the drugs war killings were a major human rights abuse but the truth has to be faced up to of its realities.On this very forum it has been denied that most of the victims were involved in drug trafficking, that most Thais supported the campaign and that support/connivance was provided from many influential persons.Unfortunately all these denials fly in the face of truth.

My impression is that you are a very sincere but rather naive person.The whole world and its dog knows that the current investigation is primarily a tactic in the great political match now in play.The elite have no real interest or intent in following this through save as an expedient to disgrace Thaksin.It will be quietly dropped eventually.My sympathies are with you and I readily agree this is a real crime for which Thaksin should be held accountable, along with others.But it is important for your credibility to face up to some painful truths which to date in your campaign I'm afraid you have almost totally ignored.If you a little more honest believe me your credibility will be enhanced.

IMHO of course

Does IMHO in your case stand for 'in my honest opinion' or 'in my humble opinion'? Presumably it's the former as the latter would be an oxymoron in your case. To enhance your credibility please offer some evidence and statistics to back up your views. You've been wrong so far regarding your prediction of no party dissolution and no investigations into the drugs war.

IYHO what percentage of those killed were actively involved in the drugs trade?

And from what base do you arrive at your figures?

What percentage were involved in heroin as opposed to methamphetamines or ganja?

How many users really died from methamphetamine abuse?

YH made the following points. Which of these do you say is not true?

1. drugs were ravaging many communities in Thailand. He did not say that those communities are not continuing to be rent by the effects of high drug useage.

2. the drug wars killings were a major human rights abuse

3. most of the victims were involved in the drug trade (he didn't say they were dealers- simply involved)

4 most Thais had no problem with the constitutional rights of the victims at the time

5 support was offered for the iron boot at highly influential levels

When people choose which abuser to nail rather than a blanket condemnation of all abuse (regardless of who the abuser was) I guess some of us question the indignation- as moving from righteous to agenda driven.

I personally think Thaksin should be held responsible- majorly responsible- but the lack of outrage from the general society spreads the shame around. (Even the PAD was strangely but not unexpectedly, quiet in its early days- preferring to focus on that supreme human rights value: money).

And the fact that we continue to hear of human rights abuses in the south (where not only is there a moral dimension but also a political/strategic one) those who cry loudest over the drug war killings are strangely silent on these. In the interest of defusing a potential time bomb, now is the time to be demanding investigations into those (and if you don't know which rights I'm talking about- (for whatever reasons, not all the reports that don't flatter the junta are printed in this forum)- I'm referring to allegations of rape, torture, murder, and improper if not illegal, detention- all of which have been alluded to or described in the English dailies- and no- I'm not going to provide links. I assume that everyone on this board that seeks to discuss news events at the very least, reads the Post and the Nation).

The danger - and I'm sure Marshbags is aware of this- is that Thaksin may well be found guilty for his role in the EJK- and a few cops might go down with him- but the lesson will be- Don't Deprive Human Rights If Your Initials Are TS. Is the goal to take down Thaksin or to send a lesson to ALL that human rights and especially the right of due process- are sacred- regardless of WHO is in charge.

Edited August 24, 2007 by blaze

[younghusband]

100,000 baht is all that the victims families will get under the Compensation for Victims of Crime Act and unless they can win the fight for more, along with other important humane support, that,s it ?????????????

And how much I wonder will the families get of the vastly greater number being victims of the drug trade, lives ruined and communities ravaged.In all your many posts on the subject you never do more than pay a cursory acknowledgement of this.We know the drugs war killings were a major human rights abuse but the truth has to be faced up to of its realities.On this very forum it has been denied that most of the victims were involved in drug trafficking, that most Thais supported the campaign and that support/connivance was provided from many influential persons.Unfortunately all these denials fly in the face of truth.

My impression is that you are a very sincere but rather naive person.The whole world and its dog knows that the current investigation is primarily a tactic in the great political match now in play.The elite have no real interest or intent in following this through save as an expedient to disgrace Thaksin.It will be quietly dropped eventually.My sympathies are with you and I readily agree this is a real crime for which Thaksin should be held accountable, along with others.But it is important for your credibility to face up to some painful truths which to date in your campaign I'm afraid you have almost totally ignored.If you a little more honest believe me your credibility will be enhanced.

IMHO of course

Does IMHO in your case stand for 'in my honest opinion' or 'in my humble opinion'? Presumably it's the former as the latter would be an oxymoron in your case. To enhance your credibility please offer some evidence and statistics to back up your views. You've been wrong so far regarding your prediction of no party dissolution and no investigations into the drugs war.

IYHO what percentage of those killed were actively involved in the drugs trade?

And from what base do you arrive at your figures?

What percentage were involved in heroin as opposed to methamphetamines or ganja?

How many users really died from methamphetamine abuse?

You are (deliberately?) asking the wrong questions, presumably in an attempt to avoid addressing the main propositions made in my post which Blaze has kindly summarised for you.For what it's worth I don't think anybody knows the full answers to the questions you pose.

It's quite amusing in a way how the juntaphiles have suddenly discovered a passion for the rights of the drug underclass at a time when coincidentally it's important in the war of words on Thaksin.No doubt they will be lamenting the Tak Bai massacre soon.I still maintain the view that the drugs investigation will lead nowhere for reasons I suspect you are as well aware as anyone.Yes I was wrong about the party dissolution, having underestimated how justice continued to be manipulated and cowed under the junta as under Thaksin.

[Plus]

He also made the following points:

- On this very forum it has been denied that most of the victims were involved in drug trafficking

I must have missed these denials

- The whole world and its dog knows that the current investigation is primarily a tactic in the great political match now in play.

Really? What if this knowledge doesn't extend beyond several posters with known prejudice against the current government and the junta? I think Kraisak's activism and persistance has so far been adequately acknowledged but no one knows how the next government will react to commission's report. Even Surayud can't predict that. Only with Democrats in power we can be sure that something will be done. Should Kraisak give up right away?

I don't really understand what he wants from Marshbags. What is this "truthful and contextual" approach? Is it something like "in the context of Thai society's norms at that time no crimes have been commited"?

Is he against compensation paid to victims of government sponsored campaign? Or should the government pay to the victims of drug abuse first, for the sake of balance? That's a novel approach.

Or is it an attempt to justify murders of thousands of people simply because they WERE involved in the drug trade?

IMO Marshbags is not naive, he is simply not as cynical.

Edited August 24, 2007 by Plus

[seonai]

I don't really want to jump into this but thought I'd post a little of what I saw during the war against drugs. Firstly the figures for the number of dead we saw are wrong by a long shot. There were far more killed. It was a carefully planned operation and the police in each area were given quotas of how many people they had to kill to avoid being posted to another province. They had maps of their area and planned day by day where to target. I saw dead bodies outside my offices and in the side streets all over town (I was in Pattaya). My reporters were scared stiff and knew that it was going to be very dodgy to report this truthfully.

[blaze]

He also made the following points:

- On this very forum it has been denied that most of the victims were involved in drug trafficking

I must have missed these denials

- The whole world and its dog knows that the current investigation is primarily a tactic in the great political match now in play.

Really? What if this knowledge doesn't extend beyond several posters with known prejudice against the current government and the junta? I think Kraisak's activism and persistance has so far been adequately acknowledged but no one knows how the next government will react to commission's report. Even Surayud can't predict that. Only with Democrats in power we can be sure that something will be done. Should Kraisak give up right away?

I don't really understand what he wants from Marshbags. What is this "truthful and contextual" approach? Is it something like "in the context of Thai society's norms at that time no crimes have been commited"?

Is he against compensation paid to victims of government sponsored campaign? Or should the government pay to the victims of drug abuse first, for the sake of balance? That's a novel approach.

Or is it an attempt to justify murders of thousands of people simply because they WERE involved in the drug trade?

IMO Marshbags is not naive, he is simply not as cynical.

And I ask once again- is this an attempt to stop human rights abuses, to demand that in ALL cases, law and due process be pre-eminent- or is it simply to find one more reason for affirming our ativistic hate of the previous PM. If it is the latter- then nothing good will come. No lessons learned- beyond- Thaksin is evil.

If it is the former, why not -at least for the optics- demand that ALL human rights abuses- including those going on at present, be investigated. (And the same thing applies to policy abuse by PMs, vote buying, corruption- the list goes on.). I will go on record- as I'm sure many others will- as saying the policy corruption of Thaksin was, if not illegal at the very least, bad governance. Same with assets concealment, nepotism- but I won't stop at Thaksin- I'll go a LONG way back. And so will several others on this board. We have consistently said, yes Thaksin needs to be held responsible for his role in the EJKs. But so do many others- including all those- inlcuding foreigners- who figured it was a pretty good idea at the time.

And the same time- I would ask- yet I don't hear either you nor MB asking- that ALL alleged abuses of human rights be impartially investigated. Why?

My biggest fear is that after this episode, the only lesson learned will be - don't piss off the army. Unless the Thais are willing to have their ELECTED representetives go after Thaksin- then it's nothing more than a vendetta. (I say elected, because that would tend to show that this initiative is supported by the people of the country- and if it is to be of any deterrent value, it must first have the support of the people, and second by seen to be applied equally to ALL alleged miscreants- not just the ones that pissed off the army). And if the army wants to be taken seriously- that it disavows suspension of human rights- then let it prove that with some of its own heads on platters.

When the Thais have decided that due process trumps the iron boot- then we will never again see a repeat of the drug wars- or Tak Bak- or Kreu Se - or Ratchburi Hospital- or this coup.

Edited August 24, 2007 by blaze

[paulsmithson]

In over thirty years of experience of Thailand I can only say that I totally support Mr Taxin.

He has built roads where ony dirt tracks existed. put running water into Thai homes, given most householders a toilet. pursued policies to enhance social services.

The average Thai persons life has been greatly enriched by this.

So he bent a few rules along the way! Bloody hel_l that is nothing even by western standards.

Drug addiction was flourishing everywhere and he killed a few scumbags to stop this!

I only eish we had a poliician of his calibre in the western world.

Take the blinkers off guys please!!!

[jumnien]

46 pages of posts and the most prolific posters really haven't budged from their Thaksin-bad, junta-good position. I don't think 46 more pages is really going to change that. They are pretty much handcuffed to that simple perspective.

[seonai]

The thousands of people he ordered dead were not all 'scumbags' and nothing ever justifies those sort of mass killings. I expect paulsmithson also supports Hitler, Idi Amin and Pol Pot

[Plus]

demand that ALL human rights abuses

This kind of approach is a sure way to kill the idea - increase the demands until they are impossible to meet.

Smoker argue that you can't touch them until you stop all traffic accidents, as traffic kills more people (a real letter in today' sBangkok Post).

Petty criminals argue that until all the big fish is caught they shouldn't be harassed by police etc etc.

I also don't understand why investigations should be done by elected government only. The law is the law, democracy and elections are not above the law. That was Thaksin's defence all the time: "I was elected", as if being elected allows one to break the law at will.

Without rule of law it's not a democracy, it's a jungle. Generals understand that, why some of our posters and the guys at the Economist seem to miss this point completely?

[Tony Clifton]

If the next government shoves aside results of investigations, again, to suit Thaksin's agenda of innocence, then they become just as guilty as those responsible for the killings or other crimes committed under his run. Worth no more than scummy small time cops constantly serving justice their own personal way.

Out!

[jumnien]

The law is the law and the coup was illegal - full stop!

[ColPyat]

Without rule of law it's not a democracy, it's a jungle. Generals understand that, why some of our posters and the guys at the Economist seem to miss this point completely?

As if our great Generals do not circumvent the law whenever it is to their advantage, and make up some along the way to ease the passage...

Pot calling kettle black.

[sriracha john]

It's quite amusing in a way how the juntaphiles have suddenly discovered a passion for the rights of the drug underclass at a time when coincidentally it's important in the war of words on Thaksin.

It's not anything new for some of us...as this example post that pre-dates your TV membership AND the coup by 2 years attests to.....

Thai police corruption is under control? I think the vast majority of people, both Thai and farang, would disagree. I'm fairly certain the 2,500 who died last year during the so-called drug war would disagree, if they could. Corruption in the police force is rampant and if anything it has INCREASED in the last 3 years.

I would just add further that it involves the rights of humans as none of those slaughtered were adjudicated as "drug underclass" prior to their executions.

Edited August 24, 2007 by sriracha john

[jumnien]

The thought of pro-junta human rights activists is a bit laughable. We all do need a good laugh some time!

[hammered]

He also made the following points:

- On this very forum it has been denied that most of the victims were involved in drug trafficking

I must have missed these denials

- The whole world and its dog knows that the current investigation is primarily a tactic in the great political match now in play.

Really? What if this knowledge doesn't extend beyond several posters with known prejudice against the current government and the junta? I think Kraisak's activism and persistance has so far been adequately acknowledged but no one knows how the next government will react to commission's report. Even Surayud can't predict that. Only with Democrats in power we can be sure that something will be done. Should Kraisak give up right away?

I don't really understand what he wants from Marshbags. What is this "truthful and contextual" approach? Is it something like "in the context of Thai society's norms at that time no crimes have been commited"?

Is he against compensation paid to victims of government sponsored campaign? Or should the government pay to the victims of drug abuse first, for the sake of balance? That's a novel approach.

Or is it an attempt to justify murders of thousands of people simply because they WERE involved in the drug trade?

IMO Marshbags is not naive, he is simply not as cynical.

And I ask once again- is this an attempt to stop human rights abuses, to demand that in ALL cases, law and due process be pre-eminent- or is it simply to find one more reason for affirming our ativistic hate of the previous PM. If it is the latter- then nothing good will come. No lessons learned- beyond- Thaksin is evil.

If it is the former, why not -at least for the optics- demand that ALL human rights abuses- including those going on at present, be investigated. (And the same thing applies to policy abuse by PMs, vote buying, corruption- the list goes on.). I will go on record- as I'm sure many others will- as saying the policy corruption of Thaksin was, if not illegal at the very least, bad governance. Same with assets concealment, nepotism- but I won't stop at Thaksin- I'll go a LONG way back. And so will several others on this board. We have consistently said, yes Thaksin needs to be held responsible for his role in the EJKs. But so do many others- including all those- inlcuding foreigners- who figured it was a pretty good idea at the time.

And the same time- I would ask- yet I don't hear either you nor MB asking- that ALL alleged abuses of human rights be impartially investigated. Why?

My biggest fear is that after this episode, the only lesson learned will be - don't piss off the army. Unless the Thais are willing to have their ELECTED representetives go after Thaksin- then it's nothing more than a vendetta. (I say elected, because that would tend to show that this initiative is supported by the people of the country- and if it is to be of any deterrent value, it must first have the support of the people, and second by seen to be applied equally to ALL alleged miscreants- not just the ones that pissed off the army). And if the army wants to be taken seriously- that it disavows suspension of human rights- then let it prove that with some of its own heads on platters.

When the Thais have decided that due process trumps the iron boot- then we will never again see a repeat of the drug wars- or Tak Bak- or Kreu Se - or Ratchburi Hospital- or this coup.

Actually it should probably be the legal authorities and the judiciary outside of the legislature who deal with any of these cases. We have already seen enough failure of seperation where the executive controls the legislature and the judiciary not to mention the fourth estate. An electoral majority of any size should never give one immunity from the law for any crime committed and the investigation of crime should not be dictated by electoral votes. One thing Thailand needs desperately is to get some seperation of power. If this had existed some time ago we may well not be in the position we are in now.

[younghusband]

He also made the following points:

- On this very forum it has been denied that most of the victims were involved in drug trafficking

I must have missed these denials

- The whole world and its dog knows that the current investigation is primarily a tactic in the great political match now in play.

Really? What if this knowledge doesn't extend beyond several posters with known prejudice against the current government and the junta? I think Kraisak's activism and persistance has so far been adequately acknowledged but no one knows how the next government will react to commission's report. Even Surayud can't predict that. Only with Democrats in power we can be sure that something will be done. Should Kraisak give up right away?

I don't really understand what he wants from Marshbags. What is this "truthful and contextual" approach? Is it something like "in the context of Thai society's norms at that time no crimes have been commited"?

Is he against compensation paid to victims of government sponsored campaign? Or should the government pay to the victims of drug abuse first, for the sake of balance? That's a novel approach.

Or is it an attempt to justify murders of thousands of people simply because they WERE involved in the drug trade?

IMO Marshbags is not naive, he is simply not as cynical.

Moving away from Plus's feudalistic twilight zone (though it's entertaining to see him wrap himself in knots in defence of this junta), I'm sorry to have given any impression I undervalue Marshbag's outrage but he would have more credibility if he demonstrated a little less heart on sleeve and a little more evenhandedness in analysis. I genuinely hope the perpetrators including Thaksin are called to account, and that Khiun Kraisak takes the investigation as far as he can.However these and other human rights abuses had nothing at all to do with the coup nor do the generals have the slightest interest in the morality dimension.I repeat that its always best to be truthful however agonising that process is and no matter what it throws up.My earlier comments about the victims of the drug trade were really just an attempt to draw attention to the context in which these crimes took place, and the current politicisation of the episode as part of the broader turf war with Thaksin.

[Plus]

these and other human rights abuses had nothing at all to do with the coup

Indeed - this thread is about Extra Judicial Killings. Marshbags didn't bring junta into this and Kraisak is not doing this on junta's bidding.

"Legitimacy of the coup" is simply a red herring and I don't quite understand why you and some others need to politicise the issue.

nor do the generals have the slightest interest in the morality dimension

Care to elaborate on that? What are their moral failures and faults? They might be incompetent but certainly not lacking in morality.

I thought you yourself admired Surayud for his outstanding moral qualities.

Why do you blindly refuse to acknowledge the fact that the coup was the reaction to the moral failures of Thaksin's administration?

[jumnien]

I'm not sure that not allowing certain pigs to the trough is a moral failure? Perhaps a strategic miscalculation.