Orlando gunman raged against 'filthy ways of the west'

[daveAustin]

This puts the kabosh on those making the argument you can't stop Islamic terrorism by banning muslim immigrants and the related claim that Mateen was an "American" and so any ban wouldn't have affected him. Mateen didn't consider himself American, as his statements show, and his 911 call wherein he demanded America "stop bombing HIS country [Afganistan]" shows muslims cannot be intergrated into the American mainstream.

His parents wouldn't have been allowed to enter US if such a ban were in place.

[KarenBravo]

Could he be part of the other 58%?

So in your binary view one either support gay marriage or want to kill gay people? In that case, we got lot of dangerous Mormons out there.

Oh dear. Try reading my sentence again, only this time a bit slower.

The key words are "part of".

Why would you ask a question if the answer was arithmetically obvious?. Since he clearly wasn't fine with gay marriage, of course he'd be with the group that wasn't.. So I assumed that you weren't asking a question about something that was arithmetically obvious but rather trying to characterize the other 58% as being in agreement with him. But if you were sincerely asking the question then yes, because he wasn't part of the 42 percent who were okay with gay marriage, then he is part of the 58 percent who do not support the right of gay people to marry. And if we are to categorize people by their opposition to gay marriage, then I guess he's also with the 74% of Mormons who don't support it.

No, because your post implied that the other 58% wanted to kill gay people, which is obviously nonsense.

Therefore, there must be a small sub-set within the 58% who do want to kill gay people. That's why I differentiated by using the words "part of".

Isn't that obvious?

[Scott]

The gay issue with this a little bit of a distraction. The guy was most likely a closet gay. He was a mass killer and he killed because of his ideology. People like this are looking for maximum impact and the club was a place where he could get the most kills. The late hour meant that security was probably less tight as people were leaving rather than coming in. It meant he could enter with greater ease. He chose a place where he knew there would be a lot of people and that he could make a spectacular kill.

It was also Ramadan, so his deeds would result in absolute forgiveness. His enemy and his hate was for America, Americans and Western culture.

The club was a place he frequented and so he knew it well. It was a convenient and easy target.

I suspect the the gay issue much more then a "distraction" and is likely one of the key parts of this guy's psychosis. It's amazing to me that when an Adam Lanza or James Holmes kills masses of people they are psycho killers but all somebody has to do is say something about ISIS or Hezebollah whie doing the same thing and they are an Islamic terrorist.

Worth noting, even with this 49, the pycho killers are still way ahead in the mass fire arms body count.

TH

You may be right. There isn't enough information to make a definitive conclusion, but there are only a couple of reasons why people commit mass killings, first is a sense of vanity, and the second is out of ideology. His is clearly out of ideology. The important thing to mass shooters is the kill count and to get the biggest number, they need a lot of people in a confined area. Picking the place has to do with familiarity. The victims are less important; it's the body count that is important. There is no indication that Adam Lanza had anything against Sandy Hook students. There is no indication that James Holmes had anything against Batman, Batman movie lovers or against the theatre. The San Bernadino shooter had no particular beef with the health department where he worked or his colleagues. What those places had in common is a significant number of people in close proximity without an easy escape.

An ideological mass killer will not necessarily have an emotional trigger. They are cool, calm and usually reasonably organized. That was the case in the Paris attacks and it was a little less organized in the Brussels attack because they thought they were going to be caught so they acted quickly.

The ideological killer also doesn't need a trigger; he doesn't suddenly 'snap'. Nothing indicates that he had any events that triggered his killing; no big problems in his marriage, no big issues at work etc.. With this in mind, the issue may have had a lot less to do with gays and more to do with getting that body count and having a place he was familiar with.

It is of course, difficult to know what goes on in the mind of people like this, but a conflicted identity crisis would probably see a long list of killings of gays over a period of time -- similar to a serial killer. We would also see some emotional or psychological trigger.

[thaihome]

The gay issue with this a little bit of a distraction. The guy was most likely a closet gay. He was a mass killer and he killed because of his ideology. People like this are looking for maximum impact and the club was a place where he could get the most kills. The late hour meant that security was probably less tight as people were leaving rather than coming in. It meant he could enter with greater ease. He chose a place where he knew there would be a lot of people and that he could make a spectacular kill.

It was also Ramadan, so his deeds would result in absolute forgiveness. His enemy and his hate was for America, Americans and Western culture.

The club was a place he frequented and so he knew it well. It was a convenient and easy target.

I suspect the the gay issue much more then a "distraction" and is likely one of the key parts of this guy's psychosis. It's amazing to me that when an Adam Lanza or James Holmes kills masses of people they are psycho killers but all somebody has to do is say something about ISIS or Hezebollah whie doing the same thing and they are an Islamic terrorist.

Worth noting, even with this 49, the pycho killers are still way ahead in the mass fire arms body count.

TH

You may be right. There isn't enough information to make a definitive conclusion, but there are only a couple of reasons why people commit mass killings, first is a sense of vanity, and the second is out of ideology. His is clearly out of ideology. The important thing to mass shooters is the kill count and to get the biggest number, they need a lot of people in a confined area. Picking the place has to do with familiarity. The victims are less important; it's the body count that is important. There is no indication that Adam Lanza had anything against Sandy Hook students. There is no indication that James Holmes had anything against Batman, Batman movie lovers or against the theatre. The San Bernadino shooter had no particular beef with the health department where he worked or his colleagues. What those places had in common is a significant number of people in close proximity without an easy escape.

An ideological mass killer will not necessarily have an emotional trigger. They are cool, calm and usually reasonably organized. That was the case in the Paris attacks and it was a little less organized in the Brussels attack because they thought they were going to be caught so they acted quickly.

The ideological killer also doesn't need a trigger; he doesn't suddenly 'snap'. Nothing indicates that he had any events that triggered his killing; no big problems in his marriage, no big issues at work etc.. With this in mind, the issue may have had a lot less to do with gays and more to do with getting that body count and having a place he was familiar with.

It is of course, difficult to know what goes on in the mind of people like this, but a conflicted identity crisis would probably see a long list of killings of gays over a period of time -- similar to a serial killer. We would also see some emotional or psychological trigger.

You are correct that there is not enough information at this point for a definitive conclusion, but I would like to point out that most mass murders don't "snap" and immediately go on a shooting spree.

In James Holmes case, he carefully prepared for the shootings. Evidence points that Adam Lanza brooded in his basement and did target practice for some time before he shot his mother (who had volunteered at Sandy Hoook) and proceeded to the school. So I don't buy that what you refer to as a "ideology" motivated killer is any different then a simply phyco one.

In fact, I think the only difference is in the makeup of their phychois. Certainly the self hate of closet homosexuals and the impact that can have on their rationality is well acknowledged by mental health professionals. Mix that in with some delusional Islamic beliefs it is a toxic mix that has little to with ideology.

Published interviews with co-workers describe him as filled with hate, against virtually everything. The FBI investigated him for links to terrorist organizationso and found none. What they likely reported was a deeply disturbed individual, but since that is not against the law and there is no way to predict future illegal behavior they closed the investigation.

It does appear the wife may have had some foreknowledge of the plan and it will come down hard on her for not taking action. Likely though, with his history of spousal abuse, she was throughly cowed into silence.

My point is, as I put in my very first post on this several days ago, this appears to be about mental health and homophobia rather then Islamic terrorism or even gun control. Nothing that has come out since then has changed that.

TH

[hgma]

I read in several comments all over the net that he was a regular visitor @this place.

I therefore think he struggled with coming out of the closet and tell his wife and/or parents

What i have read about his homophobic father makes me wonder if this senseless killings are somewhat related to a attempt to 'come out went terrible wrong' and shooting up the place diverts his real feelings from the outside world.

LUNATIC.

[NickJ]

The only thing this guy should have ever been allowed to rage over is the restraints they use in mental hoepitals......just read all about his family and early life. Horrible.