Is there any need for a schengen visa

[kannot]

Is ticket, hotel booking (paid), in hand the norm for Schengen visas?

for normal visitors yes, for family members of EU Citizens it is not a requirement

cool thanks.

BUT ..... bloody good luck trying to get them to follow the rules on this let alone understanding them.

[kannot]

And the EU delegations answer for this is!!!!

Now I am waiting on SOLVITS reply.....................hmmmmmm i can see the reason for Brexit.......

I have now looked into your inquiry, and I am afraid you will have to contact that Portuguese Embassy again regarding this matter as it is within the competency of the member states. Thus, I cannot help you with your inquiry.

Edited June 29, 2016 by kannot

[Donutz]

Oh dear, they are really screwing up. That refreshing course for embassy staff could become rather popular if the EU (Commission) would be so kind to remind it's memberstates what the EU and it's various directives is all about. And I thought the Spanish were a pain in the ***. Northern members such as the Dutch, Germans and so on seem to be doing a far better job at these things.

EU ombudsman Solvit would find itself overworked if people bothered to find out about and stand up to their rights. One more reminder that those who do the know adress the issue to them and the EU Commission to improve the odds of member states waking up.

There are no open borders though. The UK and Schengen area are seperated. A Schengen visa or resident card gives no access to the UK, a UK visa or residence card gives no access to the Schengen area. Only a residence card labeled "family member of an EU/EEA citizen" (article 10, freedom of movement directive) would if traveling with the EU national. But it should be very easy to get the free UK or Schengen visa for eligable family members of EU/EEA/CH family members.

Hope the Portugese wake up soon enough! Perhaps spent 2 minutes simply forwarding your e-mail regarding those 3 embassies/consulates to the EU Com (just-citizen... E-mail adres). I love the EU, some staff of member states... not so much. Poor training kinda kills sane benefits/rights that the EU stands for.

[kannot]

Oh dear, they are really screwing up. That refreshing course for embassy staff could become rather popular if the EU (Commission) would be so kind to remind it's memberstates what the EU and it's various directives is all about. And I thought the Spanish were a pain in the ***. Northern members such as the Dutch, Germans and so on seem to be doing a far better job at these things.

EU ombudsman Solvit would find itself overworked if people bothered to find out about and stand up to their rights. One more reminder that those who do the know adress the issue to them and the EU Commission to improve the odds of member states waking up.

There are no open borders though. The UK and Schengen area are seperated. A Schengen visa or resident card gives no access to the UK, a UK visa or residence card gives no access to the Schengen area. Only a residence card labeled "family member of an EU/EEA citizen" (article 10, freedom of movement directive) would if traveling with the EU national. But it should be very easy to get the free UK or Schengen visa for eligable family members of EU/EEA/CH family members.

Hope the Portugese wake up soon enough! Perhaps spent 2 minutes simply forwarding your e-mail regarding those 3 embassies/consulates to the EU Com (just-citizen... E-mail adres). I love the EU, some staff of member states... not so much. Poor training kinda kills sane benefits/rights that the EU stands for.

Thanks for the info on the UK V schengen issue.

Im finding this all mightily disturbing, looks like w e will not be going anywhere soon in Europe but hey ho we'll go to Australia and spend our money there instead and leave the morons to their little world of stupidity.....either that or we board the eurotunnel to France and get off then apply for an on the spot Schengen.

Im pretty disgusted by their lack of knowledge on the rules which can be found easily with a quick google search, even an idiot like me can see it clearly.

[kannot]

Have now contacted the 4 MEP's for my Area of the UK ie Wales. and also as suggested by Donutz the eu e mail address he posted. Unless the Portuguese embassy change their mind then we will not be travelling anywhere in Europe..............SHAME ON THEM ALL

Next stop Australia maybe they will be happy to accept our money?

[kannot]

possible way to get schengen ? fly to Gibraltar (no visa required as she already has UK visa) then try cross into Spain asking for on the spot schengen? chance of success???

[macahoom]

possible way to get schengen ? fly to Gibraltar (no visa required as she already has UK visa) then try cross into Spain asking for on the spot schengen? chance of success???

Four or five years ago I looked into bringing my Thai girlfriend to Gibraltar.

If I remember correctly, even though she had a UK visa, a separate (extra) one was required for Gibraltar.

Things may have changed. (Or my memory may not be working well!)

[kannot]

possible way to get schengen ? fly to Gibraltar (no visa required as she already has UK visa) then try cross into Spain asking for on the spot schengen? chance of success???

Four or five years ago I looked into bringing my Thai girlfriend to Gibraltar.

If I remember correctly, even though she had a UK visa, a separate (extra) one was required for Gibraltar.

Things may have changed. (Or my memory may not be working well!)

"depends" on the Gibraltar Govt website it says this below and my Wife has a 6 month multiple entry visa,

Now I wonder if they mean 6 months remaining on the visa on the day she arrives there or just a 6 month validity from date of issue?

(h) persons holding EU issued family permits, UK Residence Permits valid for a period of 12 months or more, UK Biometric Residence permits or a UK multiple entry visa valid for 6 months or more.

https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/visas-and-immigration

[macahoom]

possible way to get schengen ? fly to Gibraltar (no visa required as she already has UK visa) then try cross into Spain asking for on the spot schengen? chance of success???

Four or five years ago I looked into bringing my Thai girlfriend to Gibraltar.

If I remember correctly, even though she had a UK visa, a separate (extra) one was required for Gibraltar.

Things may have changed. (Or my memory may not be working well!)

"depends" on the Gibraltar Govt website it says this below and my Wife has a 6 month multiple entry visa,

Now I wonder if they mean 6 months remaining on the visa on the day she arrives there or just a 6 month validity from date of issue?

(h) persons holding EU issued family permits, UK Residence Permits valid for a period of 12 months or more, UK Biometric Residence permits or a UK multiple entry visa valid for 6 months or more.

https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/visas-and-immigration

That seems quite clear(ish) to me: a six month visa, multiple entry. Who knows?

I wouldn't be too confident about getting an "on-the-spot" Schengen at, of all places, the Spanish/Gibraltar checkpoint.

Edited June 30, 2016 by macahoom

[kannot]

possible way to get schengen ? fly to Gibraltar (no visa required as she already has UK visa) then try cross into Spain asking for on the spot schengen? chance of success???

Four or five years ago I looked into bringing my Thai girlfriend to Gibraltar.

If I remember correctly, even though she had a UK visa, a separate (extra) one was required for Gibraltar.

Things may have changed. (Or my memory may not be working well!)

"depends" on the Gibraltar Govt website it says this below and my Wife has a 6 month multiple entry visa,

Now I wonder if they mean 6 months remaining on the visa on the day she arrives there or just a 6 month validity from date of issue?

(h) persons holding EU issued family permits, UK Residence Permits valid for a period of 12 months or more, UK Biometric Residence permits or a UK multiple entry visa valid for 6 months or more.

https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/visas-and-immigration

That seems quite clear(ish) to me: a six month visa, multiple entry. Who knows?

I wouldn't be too confident about getting an "on-the-spot" Schengen at, of all places, the Spanish/Gibraltar checkpoint.

Im not as it seems no one is abiding by the EU rules which makes me think Brexit was necessary

[kannot]

1st reply back from one MEP................a rather stupid response in my opinion...................contact your local MP!! duh WHY? Its a European problem Im sure Dafyd Llewllyn or whatever the Mp for Mid Wales is will have no idea probably say contact your MEP, all a bunch of (insert any expletive) democracy in inaction

[kannot]

UPDATE..............no news from Portuguese embassy, got Wife to call them whilst i listened on skype, theyve caved in , will refund the 2400 baht and have issued the visa, still blathering on that UK law says we arent married but Portuguese law says we are..............reality is of course BOTH say we are married, unless this is just their face saving codswallop.

SO............

IF U HAVE AN EU PASSPORT you can get a free visa for your Wife (Wife or even girlfriend but that will be harder) by creating merry hell.

The whole thing has been abysmal though as even the UK Italian embassies ( two) dont know the rules.

Thanks to Donutz for his help

[kannot]

Finally ....................HUH!!!

Pls note this isnt really her face Ive improved it

Am going to get a friend to call the same embassy and tell them she too is married to an EU national..............what yer wanna bet she'll not get a free visa???

[Donutz]

555

Congratulations, and a MEV 6 month validity (stay of max 90 days per half year!) while at it. So you could go for multiple short visits to the mainland.

[mgb]

180 days validity and multi entry is good but why not 90 days duration of stay.

The schengen counting of days is different to Thailand.

[Donutz]

I hadn't noticed yet (was in a rush), but that's indeed silly. Especially since under the directive they'd be legal anyway if they stay together (and could show marriage, not be a burden to the state and so on). 30 days will probably do just fine for 1, 2 or 3 short trips of a few weeks but they could stay longer if they'd desire to do so.

[mgb]

Technically a family member cannot overstay a visa if accompanied by the eu citizen but it can produce a lot of discussions with border officers.

Maybe it is a good idea to write 90 in field 25 at the schengen visa application form.

[kannot]

I hadn't noticed yet (was in a rush), but that's indeed silly. Especially since under the directive they'd be legal anyway if they stay together (and could show marriage, not be a burden to the state and so on). 30 days will probably do just fine for 1, 2 or 3 short trips of a few weeks but they could stay longer if they'd desire to do so.

I believe the problem to be they are just plain................... DUMB

Its long enough for what we need this time a week in Portugal 4 days In Italy

[fbf]

I'm looking into getting a visa for my Thai wife to join me in Spain. I will travel there a few times this year for work, and hope that she can join me for the weekend. As such, I'll already be there and she'll be arriving to join me.

In theory it looks like she won't need a visa:

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/LONDRES/en/Consulado/Pages/CheckPassport.aspx

http://www.vfsglobal.com/spain/uk/london/EEA_EU_Spouse.html

Both pages include this text:

IMPORTANT NOTICE: Under Directive 2004/38/EC and according to Real Decreto 240/2007, 16 February, Family members of an EU/EEA National in possession of a valid UK Residence Permit are not required of a visa to enter Spain if traveling with or intending to join the EEA family member. If the person travels without the family member, they would be required to apply under the Tourist visa category and provide all of the required documentation for the same, and would be required to pay the visa fee in addition to the service charge. Please note that the UK Residence Permit must state that the holder is a family member of an EU/EEA National

Have things changed this year? Can she really just show up at the border with her BRP and point out that her husband is already here (not even necessarily at the airport as I'd probably pre-book at taxi for her).

[mgb]

The problem is to made it to the border. No airline would let her boarding.

[Donutz]

I'm looking into getting a visa for my Thai wife to join me in Spain. I will travel there a few times this year for work, and hope that she can join me for the weekend. As such, I'll already be there and she'll be arriving to join me.

In theory it looks like she won't need a visa:

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/LONDRES/en/Consulado/Pages/CheckPassport.aspx

http://www.vfsglobal.com/spain/uk/london/EEA_EU_Spouse.html

Both pages include this text:

IMPORTANT NOTICE: Under Directive 2004/38/EC and according to Real Decreto 240/2007, 16 February, Family members of an EU/EEA National in possession of a valid UK Residence Permit are not required of a visa to enter Spain if traveling with or intending to join the EEA family member. If the person travels without the family member, they would be required to apply under the Tourist visa category and provide all of the required documentation for the same, and would be required to pay the visa fee in addition to the service charge. Please note that the UK Residence Permit must state that the holder is a family member of an EU/EEA National

Have things changed this year? Can she really just show up at the border with her BRP and point out that her husband is already here (not even necessarily at the airport as I'd probably pre-book at taxi for her).

Read carefully!! There is a difference between regular UK residence permits (issued to the partner of a UK national for instance) and the EU/EEA residence permit (issued to the spouse/partner of EU/EEA nationals residing in an other EU/EEA nation such as a German in de UK or a Brit in France):

"Please note that the UK Residence Permit must state that the holder is a family member of an EU/EEA National"

If that text is not on it (which it won't if you are a UK citizen with Thai partner living in the UK together) she does not have the required card.

A regular residence card would allow her to get a visa on the spot at the border if she managed to proof family relation, joining you etc. But good good boarding a carrier to Spain without visa... So unless you hire a private plane you're out of luck and should get her a visa. Just as the EU suggests on there internet page:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm

"Arriving at the border without an entry visa:

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot."

So get her a Schengen visa unless you prefer to get a headache...

You may wish to read this topic and topics on Spain. I'd have made a seperate topic or bumped a Spain Schengen topic rather then using this Portugese Schengen topic. Basics are the same but it may confuse people.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Donutz

[fbf]

Read carefully!! There is a difference between regular UK residence permits (issued to the partner of a UK national for instance) and the EU/EEA residence permit (issued to the spouse/partner of EU/EEA nationals residing in an other EU/EEA nation such as a German in de UK or a Brit in France):

"Please note that the UK Residence Permit must state that the holder is a family member of an EU/EEA National"

If that text is not on it (which it won't if you are a UK citizen with Thai partner living in the UK together) she does not have the required card.

Very good point, thanks. I just looked at her BRP and no mention of being a family member of an EU/EEA national, even though that does currently apply.

Well despite the fact that my neighbour is a pilot and has flown me over to Le Touquet, France, before, I think I'll take the easier route and get a visa. To be honest, I was surprised when I saw this message on the VFS site as it made things look so easy. I wonder if some people might get caught out by that.

Also sorry for bumping this topic, I'll start a new one if there are any specific questions with the visa application.

[theoldgit]

Offensive post, also giving misleading "advice", removed.

[kannot]

Here is a  reply from the eu re  this original, matter, they are  still investigating, we did get to Europe   by the way and we didnt  pay a visa fee to the Portuguese embassy........no word of apology from them at all.

DELETED

Wife In Italy (Vesuvius behind) she said it reminded her of dealing with the staff at the Portuguese embassy!!!

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by seedy
PERSONAL DETAILS

[Donutz]

Thanks for the update! Glad to hear that you made it to Europe on a free visa and are enjoying the holiday together. That matters most. Nice photo, ham  yai ( หำใหญ่) 555. 

 

Also good to see that you contacted the EU. THey do work slow but in the long run they should see to correct and proper treatment of EU nationals and their family members so you are doing all others with non EU family members a favour here. 

 

You may wish to delete that PDF though, as I can still copy your personal info. The white boxes only cover the content, they did not erase it. Allowing me to see your full name, e-mail adress etc. 

 

I copied the letter below (removed the personal information):

 

---------

 

 

EUROPEAN COMMISSION DIRECTORATE-GENERAL JUSTICE and CONSUMERS .

★ * • * ♦ Directorate D: Equality and Citizenship Unit D.3: Union citizenship rights and Free movement Head of unit 6. m 2016

Brussels,

JUST/C/2/MhB/ess (2016)s***********

 

Mr ********

 

Dear Mr *****,

I acknowledge receipt of your email of 29 June 2016 regarding your wife's visa application at the Portuguese embassy in Bangkok that was registered under CHAP(2016)****** (please quote this reference in anyfurther correspondence). You want to know whether the information of the Portuguese embassy is correct that to benefit from the visa facilitation pursuant to Directive 2004/38/EC you must have your marriage that was validly contracted in Thailand registered in your home country UK, as they informed you that otherwise that your wife is not legally your wife. I can inform you as follows.

 

Article 21 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union stipulates that every citizen of the Union shall have the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in the Treaties and by the measures adopted to give them effect.

 

As you already know, according to Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States', family members who accompany or join an EU citizen who moves to or resides in a Member State other than that of which s/he is a national have the right to enter the territory of the Member State". Although the Member State may require the family member who is a non-EU national to have an entry visa it must grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas which must be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

 

The Directive therefore sets out the rights of the non-EU family members of mobile EU citizens as regards entry to a Member State but does not provide for details on the processing of visa applications nor on the type of documents to be submitted. Although details regarding visa applications can be found in the general framework of EU common visa policy for the Schengen area, namely in the Visa Code3, this Visa Code does not specifically refer to the rights of the non-EU family members of mobile EU citizens.

 

_{http:7cur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:2004L0038:20l I0616:EN:PDF, See, inter alia, judgment in Commission v Spain, C-503/03 ECLI:EU:C:2006:74 in Regulation (EC) No 810/2009 of 13 July 2009 establishing a Community Code on Visas, http://eurlcx.europa.en/LcxUriServ/LexUriServ.do?urDOJ:L:2009:243:000l:0058:en:PDF Commission européenne/Europese Commissie, 1049 Bruxelles/Brussel, BELGIQUE/BELGIË - Tel. +32 22991111 Office: M059 6/68 - Tel. direct line +32 229-69408 - Fax +32 229-79586 Ref. Ares(2016)5790977 - 06/10/2016}

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

Therefore the Handbook to the Visa Code4 that was adopted on the basis of the Visa Code describes in its Part III the specific rules relating to visa applicants who are non-EU family members of EU citizens and also more details on how to process visa applications made under the Directive.

 

According to the Handbook the non-EU spouse is required to present with the visa application a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship5. Although the Visa Handbook is not legally binding, this nonetheless reproduces the rule in the Directive according to which a Member State may require family members ofmobile EU citizens who reside in a Member State and who apply for a residence card to present a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship.

 

Neither the Directive nor the Visa Handbook provide that the marriage certificate must be registered in the home country ofthe EU citizen.

 

However, the rules of the Directive on visas for family members have been correctly transposed into Portuguese law6 and the background for the registration request is unclear, including whether the information you received on the registration of your marriage reflects a legal requirement.

 

It is the Commission's established practice to contact the authorities ofthe Member State concerned to request information because in this way legal positions can be confirmed and appropriate conclusions reached.

 

The Commission has agreed with Member States on a dedicated information-exchange and problem-resolution tool7 ('EU Pilot') to improve the speed and efficiency of this information-exchange and problem-resolution process.

 

I will therefore contact the Portuguese authorities in EU Pilot on whether Portugal requires having marriages contracted abroad registered in the Member State of the EU citizen's nationality for family members of mobile EU citizens to benefit from visa facilitation pursuant to Directive 2004/38/EC.

 

I will keep you informed about the further developments in this regard.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

*signature*

Marie-Hélène Boulanger

 

_{4 lHtp://ec.eiiropa.eu/dus/liome-alTairs/p»licies/borders/docs/c 2010 1620 en.pdf 5 Section 3.6 of Part III ofthe Handbook for the processing of visa applications and the modification of issued visas, available at httpf/ec.europa.eii/home-affairs/policies/borders/docs/c 2010 1620 en.pdf 6 Articles 3(1), 4(2) 2nd part and Article 4(3) of Lei 37/2006 de 09.08 (Regula o exercicio do direito de livre circulação e residência dos cidadãos da União Europeia e dos membros das suas famílias no território nacional e transpõepara a ordem juridical interna a Directiva 2004/38/CE, do Parlamento Europeu e do Conselho de 29 de Abril) [Law 37/2006 of 09.08 (Rules on the right of citizens of the European Union and their families to move and reside freely in the national territory and transpose to national law Directive 2004/38/CE ofthe European Parliament and the Council of 29.04)] 7 liiLIilŹLULyiffiiLcy/eiLiaw/i^ 2}

_{-----------------------------------------------------------------------}

[seedy]

post Edited - Personal Details removed

[thetruth revealer]

On 23.6.2016 at 7:55 AM, kannot said:

seems to be?

I am a family member (spouse, child) of an EU/EEA citizen:

If the applicant is travelling to another Schengen member state then the one that your EU family member is a national of, and you are travelling together or the non EU/EEA national family member is travelling to join the EU/EEA national family member, then you are entitled to a FREE visa which should be granted swiftly (accelerated procedure) and with minimum hassle. Your application falls under directive 2004/38/EC regarding the Freedom of Movement. A minimum of documentation and requirements apply.

It's important to know who qualifies as a family member of an EU/EEA citizen though.

Who qualifies?:

The non-EU spouse, (grand)children or (grand)parents. And only If they will be travelling together with you, or joining you in another EU country then the country you are a citizen of. Your registered partner and extended family - siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and so on - can ask the authorities in an EU country to officially recognise them as family members of an EU national. EU countries do not have to recognise them as your family members but they do at least have to consider the request.

Example: a German and his Thai spouse have to apply for a regular C type visa if they are applying for a stay in Germany. If they would go on holiday to Spain for instance, they would be able to apply for the EU/EEA family member visa.

Requirements:

A minimum of documentation and requirements apply: travel insurance is not required, hotel bookings are not required, transport bookings (flight) is not required etc. For a spouse the marriage certificate + possibly legalisation by the local ministry of foreign affairs to confirm it's a genuine document + official translation to a language that the embassy can read should be sufficient. Sadly not all embassies apply the Visa Code properly. There should be no need for hotel reservations, insurance or other such things. They may for instance ask that your marriage is registrated in the EU. That most certainly is not a requirement (the EU directive simply requires you to be genuinly married). It could be more efficient to cooperate with such silly demands but if you are unable or unwilling to do so due to cost or time constraints, you would be in your right to point out that the embassy is asking too much.

What is required:

- Show that the applicant (non EU) is first line family of an EU national: provide the marriage certificat (translated if need be, there should be no need to register a Thai marriage in the EU spouse his/her country).

- Provide passports of the both of you so they can ID you.

- Confirmation that the two of you will be traveling together or joining eachother in the member state: declaration by the EU spouse, optionally as extra evidence a reservation for transport to the EU.

Source ?

[thetruth revealer]

On 23.6.2016 at 0:34 PM, kannot said:

They have replied to my e mail stating this which I think is incorrect as the eu ruling states you dont have to be married in the husbands home country.

the reason why you can't find on the Schengen visa law the need to register the marriage is due to basic fact that if you get married in Thailand, or anywhere else in the world, butyou don't register you marriage by the law of your home country you will still be single. Which means your "thai law wife" is not your wife by the, in this case, british law and that doesnt give her the right to have any of the spouse rights when it comes to visa.

Whats FACTS?

[thetruth revealer]

On 29.6.2016 at 0:11 PM, kannot said:

And the EU delegations answer for this is!!!!

Now I am waiting on SOLVITS reply.....................hmmmmmm i can see the reason for Brexit.......

I have now looked into your inquiry, and I am afraid you will have to contact that Portuguese Embassy again regarding this matter as it is within the competency of the member states. Thus, I cannot help you with your inquiry.

[kannot]

3 hours ago, thetruth revealer said:

Source ?

off  the  top of  my  head  as  this  was  some  months  ago it  may  have been the "solvit" website.

Let's  see next year when we  plan to do Spain and maybe Portugal again how stupid  they want to be