So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, autanic said:

 

Indebtedness will increase while interest rates are at an all time low. The fact is borrowing has never ever been so cheap. You could never get a mortgage at today's rate 20 or 30 years ago.

It makes sense to borrow while loans are cheap. The only problem with indebtedness is when they raise the interest rates too quickly and I think this is something everyone can agree on, that will not happen any time soon.

 

They said the same thing about cross-country house prices in the US. We are looking at inflationary pressures going into 2017, with all the QE no one has any inkling as to what the consequences of that might be ... so inflation is a more than a remote possibility.

[Ricardo]

2 hours ago, MissAndry said:

 

Oil 5 years ago $120 a barrel = 80GPB ($1.5 = 1 GBP)

Oil today $45 a barrel = 37GBP ($1.2 = 1 GBP)

 

Therefore my heating oil should be less than half the price today than it was 5 years ago ...... but strangly it's costing me more.

 

What don't you understand?

 

I'll buy GBP 1-million, from you, and pay you US$ 1.2-million, as many times as you want !

 

The current rate is just over 1.30, and was only down to 1.28-ish for a few days.

 

...  and regarding your heating-oil, do you think that tax might be part of the price you pay, or that refining/transport-costs have declined over the past five years ?

Edited September 2, 2016 by Ricardo

[GuestHouse]

2 hours ago, autanic said:

 

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with you on that one. 

 

My point is, was there a better time to leave the EU.  Oil is very low around $45 a barrel compared to $100+ a few years ago. The market is flooded with cheap Chinese Commodities. Like Steel etc. Interest rates are at a historic record low.  Lets face it, if you were going shake of the shackles of the EU, this was the perfect time to do it.

 

Your argument is based on the idea of EU shackles. - What ate they?

 

I've spent almost 30 years working for a UK based multinational, spending almost all of that time working on projects overseas.

 

My current project is an example, engineered in the Netherlands by a multinational team, equipment manufactured globally, shipped to Itally to be assembeled, then shipped to Germany for integration testing. 

 

Equipment and and enginnering personnel moving across EU borders seamlessly without restrictions of visa, taxes and because of unified EU design standards without the need for type testing or re certification. 

 

The EU enabling business.

 

I do not see or have any experience of the EU shackles of which you speak.

 

But then I work in an international business environment, your experience may be different - You give no examples of how you are shackeled, so I can't draw any conclusions from what you say.

[Khun Han]

9 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

You could have made similar claims about the 'sick man of Europe' in the 1970's ... the UK ... with all of its problems it is just going down forever. It went cap in hand to the IMF for a loan, I believe? But it didn't last forever, despite the problems it faced it worked through them. 

 

Incidentally the UK is facing into historically high levels of indebtedness, a situation that will get worse following Brexit, not to mention the prospect of rising prices in 2017, as the currency impact hits goods inwards. Hays plc yesterday warned on lower levels of hiring, so beware that you don't talk prematurely.

 

And who's to say that the issues that some European countries are facing are insurmountable? Nothing ever stays the same and I would not be surprised to see a stronger Europe in the future ... as nothing is written in sand ... in a decade or less we might be looking at a different economic scenario. We've seen the Asian crisis, Russian debt crisis, on and on ... but they recovered ... as will the EU. 

 

 

 

Alex, you're hilarious. The sky is falling on Britain (but not quite yet), And the rest of Europe just has a few minor local difficulties. Balance, man, balance.

[Khun Han]

7 hours ago, Ricardo said:

 

I'll buy GBP 1-million, from you, and pay you US$ 1.2-million, as many times as you want !

 

The current rate is just over 1.30, and was only down to 1.28-ish for a few days.

 

...  and regarding your heating-oil, do you think that tax might be part of the price you pay, or that refining/transport-costs have declined over the past five years ?

 

Those costs and tax certainly haven't gone up 250%.

[oxo1947]

Apparently they have issued a new map of Europe since the UK decided to leave them to it...........

 

 

[Khun Han]

8 hours ago, JB300 said:

It's by no means clear what will happen to the border between ROI & NI as whilst both sides may want to maintain the pre-EU CTA arrangement, any agreement will probably need ratifying by the (other 26 countries in) EU.

(BBC) Reality Check: What does Brexit mean for the Irish border? ... http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36883992

Just when you thought things couldn't get any more complicated

 

You have inadvertently identified one of the big issues brexiters have with the EU: Britain tends to play by the rules; The rest of the EU just breaks them to suit, then negotiates forward.

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, GuestHouse said:

 

Your argument is based on the idea of EU shackles. - What ate they?

 

I've spent almost 30 years working for a UK based multinational, spending almost all of that time working on projects overseas.

 

My current project is an example, engineered in the Netherlands by a multinational team, equipment manufactured globally, shipped to Itally to be assembeled, then shipped to Germany for integration testing. 

 

Equipment and and enginnering personnel moving across EU borders seamlessly without restrictions of visa, taxes and because of unified EU design standards without the need for type testing or re certification. 

 

The EU enabling business.

 

I do not see or have any experience of the EU shackles of which you speak.

 

But then I work in an international business environment, your experience may be different - You give no examples of how you are shackeled, so I can't draw any conclusions from what you say.

How ever did the world function before the rise of the EU? The mind boggles.....

[JB300]

Deleted... Too each his own...

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

Alex, you're hilarious. The sky is falling on Britain (but not quite yet), And the rest of Europe just has a few minor local difficulties. Balance, man, balance.

 

You guys are the one's who claim how strong the UK economy is ... even though the purchasing power of UK plc has fallen since the vote, courtesy of the Sterling fall. Input costs will rise so we will have higher inflation come 2017 ... as I said the economic effects don't turn on a sixpence, as there is a lag. Hays are reporting a slow down in recruitment, something that you'll see feeding through into future numbers.

 

You lot argue that the economy is strong, so the "remain" criticisms were wrong? And your evidence is "current" figures ... figures that relate to an economy that is within the EU, was built up over 40 years within the EU, and has not left the EU? 

 

What you are in fact demonstrating is how good we had it it within the EU. Your case only has validity if we are in the promised land of milk and honey when we are operating outside the EU ... only then will it have any shred of validity.

 

Your case for staying in the EU is laudable. Credit were credit is due! 

[AlexRich]

47 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

How ever did the world function before the rise of the EU? The mind boggles.....

 

Well, look at the UK growth 1950 to 1972 ... we did of course 'function', but we were poorer and our growth was slower. 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, GuestHouse said:

 

Your argument is based on the idea of EU shackles. - What ate they?

 

I've spent almost 30 years working for a UK based multinational, spending almost all of that time working on projects overseas.

 

My current project is an example, engineered in the Netherlands by a multinational team, equipment manufactured globally, shipped to Itally to be assembeled, then shipped to Germany for integration testing. 

 

Equipment and and enginnering personnel moving across EU borders seamlessly without restrictions of visa, taxes and because of unified EU design standards without the need for type testing or re certification. 

 

The EU enabling business.

 

I do not see or have any experience of the EU shackles of which you speak.

 

But then I work in an international business environment, your experience may be different - You give no examples of how you are shackeled, so I can't draw any conclusions from what you say.

 

He read it in The Sun newspaper ... so it must be true!

 

And Freddie Star ate my hamster!

 

 

 

[GuestHouse]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

How ever did the world function before the rise of the EU? The mind boggles.....

 

Just focus on coming up with a Brexit plan, the absence of which is something Btexit supporters have yet found someone else to blame for.

[sandyf]

7 hours ago, autanic said:

 

An open border with Ireland was agreed over 80 years ago, nothing to do with the EU.

At what time in those 80 years did one country allow free movement and the other did not?

[sandyf]

7 hours ago, Khun Han said:

^ What point are you trying to make? If the UK and ROI want a soft border, they will have one (they have one by default anyway). And it will have no practical pressure from third party influences. You remainers put an absurd amount of weight on the power and influence of the EU and it's associated agencies. What happened to your thinking???

Like most brexiteers you are hung up on the past and cannot see the wood for the trees.

If the UK is not in the EU the border in Ireland would become FOR THE FIRST TIME an EU external border and not revert to a pre EU situation.

Of course you are perfectly free to believe that the ROI does not have to conform to EU standards on border control.

[autanic]

12 hours ago, GuestHouse said:

 

I'll ask you in all fairness and a whole lot pf reality.

 

Has the UK left the EU?

 

There's only one right answer so don't take too long figuring it out.

 

What are you talking about. The UK has voted to leave the EU. Has it left right this minute is that what you REALLY  asking me ? No, it takes two years of negotiations with all 28 member states, which apparently can be extended if everyone agrees to it. Being the EU, then you can add another 8 years of stagnations and ankle dragging. So your look for the UK to officially leave the rest of the EU by around 2023 by my calculations, give or take a year.  But whats the rush, the wheels of leaving are in motion. We are already decoupled so to speak. We have not take the Presidency and from 2019, we will no longer be paying into the budget.

 

There are literally hundreds of thousands of EU directives which need to be studied, rewritten, accepted or rejected into UK legislation and most of these have to be drafted in to acts of parliament. 40 years worth.

 

So lets cut the UK some slack, we have our work cut out. A great time to be a lawyer.

 

In all seriousness I know what your plugging at, the UK is still a member of the EU until its not and at the moment, it still is.  However as each act of parliament is drafted and debated, such as the European Directive on cookie notification, we all have to agree to on every website we visit. Do we keep it or not. These things will take time.

 

As they are dropped, you can expect ripples in the market, from some very unexpected places.  Reversing 40 years of bad legislature is not an easy take to do in 2 years. Thank God we didnt join the Euro.

[autanic]

12 hours ago, JB300 said:

It's by no means clear what will happen to the border between ROI & NI as whilst both sides may want to maintain the pre-EU CTA arrangement, any agreement will probably need ratifying by the (other 26 countries in) EU.

(BBC) Reality Check: What does Brexit mean for the Irish border? ... http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36883992

Just when you thought things couldn't get any more complicated

 

Not true. The bilateral arrangement that meant the British Border was moved from Dover to Calais set a precedent. That matter regarding borders are for Sovereign States and not an EU matter.

[autanic]

9 hours ago, GuestHouse said:

 

Your argument is based on the idea of EU shackles. - What ate they?

 

I've spent almost 30 years working for a UK based multinational, spending almost all of that time working on projects overseas.

 

My current project is an example, engineered in the Netherlands by a multinational team, equipment manufactured globally, shipped to Itally to be assembeled, then shipped to Germany for integration testing. 

 

Equipment and and enginnering personnel moving across EU borders seamlessly without restrictions of visa, taxes and because of unified EU design standards without the need for type testing or re certification. 

 

The EU enabling business.

 

I do not see or have any experience of the EU shackles of which you speak.

 

But then I work in an international business environment, your experience may be different - You give no examples of how you are shackeled, so I can't draw any conclusions from what you say.

 

I take on board your comments, here are mine.

 

The EU has shackled us in this way : I use the word "we" to mean the UK, UK Citizens or EU Citizens.

• We cannot make trade deals with any Country, instead all deals have to be agreed by all 28 Countries. Casing point Canada. 
• We are not able to over rule laws from the European Courts (Technically not part of the EU), but worth a mention. The Supreme Court in the UK is subservient. 
• We cannot vote or veto EU directives.
• We have rules that mean we must catch fish a certain size, any size to small (even dead) but be deboarded. This has destroyed the fishing industry.
• We can only fish for so many days of the year, catching a particular fish at a particular size.
• We must accept all EU Citizen arriving at our border without questions.

[autanic]

8 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

You guys are the one's who claim how strong the UK economy is ... even though the purchasing power of UK plc has fallen since the vote, courtesy of the Sterling fall. Input costs will rise so we will have higher inflation come 2017 ... as I said the economic effects don't turn on a sixpence, as there is a lag. Hays are reporting a slow down in recruitment, something that you'll see feeding through into future numbers.

 

You lot argue that the economy is strong, so the "remain" criticisms were wrong? And your evidence is "current" figures ... figures that relate to an economy that is within the EU, was built up over 40 years within the EU, and has not left the EU? 

 

What you are in fact demonstrating is how good we had it it within the EU. Your case only has validity if we are in the promised land of milk and honey when we are operating outside the EU ... only then will it have any shred of validity.

 

Your case for staying in the EU is laudable. Credit were credit is due! 

 

The Political Union is dead, you need to accept it mate. Harkin back to the 70s is a losing argument.

[autanic]

7 hours ago, GuestHouse said:

 

Just focus on coming up with a Brexit plan, the absence of which is something Btexit supporters have yet found someone else to blame for.

 

For all those who did not quite get the memo.  A question was asked, we answered it the way we wanted to. I will let the Politicians work out the details. Not my job.

[autanic]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

Like most brexiteers you are hung up on the past and cannot see the wood for the trees.

If the UK is not in the EU the border in Ireland would become FOR THE FIRST TIME an EU external border and not revert to a pre EU situation.

Of course you are perfectly free to believe that the ROI does not have to conform to EU standards on border control.

 

Border Controls are set by each Country. All the EU says, is EU Citizens have right to free movement. As the UK would be non-EU citizens, then Ireland like the UK now has the right to govern its own Immigration Policy.

This is at the heart of us Brexiteers have been saying. We can control Non-EU Migration, but it is undermined by EU migration, which we have no control over. You cannot say a Country controls its border, then go on to say but EU Citizens have free pass.

[JB300]

 

Not true. The bilateral arrangement that meant the British Border was moved from Dover to Calais set a precedent. That matter regarding borders are for Sovereign States and not an EU matter.

Your "argument" (too strong a word, maybe "Position" is better?) doesn't make sense as it's the absence of a border in Ireland that we're talking about.

Sure... If they put a border between ROI & NI either side of the "line" it would be the same as the "Border" in France but currently there is no border...

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, autanic said:

 

The Political Union is dead, you need to accept it mate. Harkin back to the 70s is a losing argument.

 

No mate, losing the argument is when you fail to counter the points being made. You are making claims about how strong the UK economy is two months after the vote ... an economy that has been built over 40 years within the EU ... it is not in any way an indication of how the UK will fare outside of the EU, given that the bulk of our trade takes place with our neighbours. Your evidence is merely an affirmation of how good the EU has been for the UK. 

 

You talk of political union ... but don't address the point above ... and then claim that I am losing the argument? Is it because you don't have an answer?

Edited September 3, 2016 by AlexRich

[cumgranosalum]

Brexiteers have no vision of the future and no concept of the future - their votes were based on a self-centred personal experience that apparently extended no further than that week.

 

Rebel Rebel

 

This is a load of Europeans singing in English - you can say good-bye to that over the next few years - and the role that English Language has to play in Europe.

 

It's not so much that we've LOST it...it is that Brexiteers have set out to destroy it.

Edited September 3, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[MissAndry]

Traveled in Europe for over 30 years, France, Italy and Spain, almost nobody I met spoke English.

Germany, Austria, and Switzerland around 30% of people I met spoke English.

 

EU had nothing to do with it.

Edited September 3, 2016 by MissAndry

[rockingrobin]

15 hours ago, MissAndry said:

 

Oil 5 years ago $120 a barrel = 80GPB ($1.5 = 1 GBP)

Oil today $45 a barrel = 37GBP ($1.2 = 1 GBP)

 

Therefore my heating oil should be less than half the price today than it was 5 years ago ...... but strangly it's costing me more.

 

What don't you understand?

I looked into heating oil , and found the following

Av price based per 1000 Litres in 2012  was 64 pence per litre, and 29 pence per litre in 2016 , a drop of 55%

https://www.valueoils.com/heating-oil-prices/

[i claudius]

And the wheels on the bus go round and around ,remainers ,come back later if it all goes ti-s up and then tell us how stupid we were ,until then , STOP you lost the vote ,we won it , you are just sounding like bad losers .

[Orac]

Interesting article in The Economist today

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21706348-dire-prophecies-doom-have-not-come-trueyet-economy-slowing-fact-and-fiction?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/ed/

[AlexRich]

37 minutes ago, i claudius said:

And the wheels on the bus go round and around ,remainers ,come back later if it all goes ti-s up and then tell us how stupid we were ,until then , STOP you lost the vote ,we won it , you are just sounding like bad losers .

 

It's not a football match. I recall Nigel Farage said on the eve of the vote (when he thought they'd lost) that if they lost by a narrow margin, like 52-48, the fight would continue because that margin was insufficient. I quite agree, so you and your ilk should not be surprised when those that voted remain take the same stance ... we're just following Nigel's lead.

 

I think the reason that Brexiteers want to close down the debate is because they are scared of a national change-of-mind, something which is of course our democratic right. That's democracy in action, the right to campaign to reverse something you disagree with ... you'll just need to live with it, and hope that the three stooges, Liam, Boris and David, can deliver on their promises. I'm not hopeful they can. So what is done can be undone ... that's what worries you the most? 

[i claudius]

42 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

It's not a football match. I recall Nigel Farage said on the eve of the vote (when he thought they'd lost) that if they lost by a narrow margin, like 52-48, the fight would continue because that margin was insufficient. I quite agree, so you and your ilk should not be surprised when those that voted remain take the same stance ... we're just following Nigel's lead.

 

I think the reason that Brexiteers want to close down the debate is because they are scared of a national change-of-mind, something which is of course our democratic right. That's democracy in action, the right to campaign to reverse something you disagree with ... you'll just need to live with it, and hope that the three stooges, Liam, Boris and David, can deliver on their promises. I'm not hopeful they can. So what is done can be undone ... that's what worries you the most? 

 

Not in the least ,i am not worried , ,just tired of all the whining and whinging from the remainers who are praying that it will all go tits up so they can say"told you so" well if it does ,then feel free ,but until then ,,stop already