So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[AlexRich]

24 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

This one's not bad. But the one involving the Essex comedian on Question Time was great. He was squirming around like a worm on a pin, creating ever more complex lies about which poster said what to whom about what, in order to try to cover his tracks. It was just hilarious .

 

More word twisting ... I would say you couldn't make it up ... but of course you do.  

[SheungWan]

7 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

There are far too many people in this world that have never heard of, never mind understand the phrase:

 

'' Too many cooks spoil the broth ''

 

This is especially true for people that have never actually had a job. 4 years at Uni and straight into politics is hardly a good, solid grounding in real life.

 

No uni for you then.

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

 

No uni for you then.

 

He's a Brexiteer ... most of them didn't.

[SgtRock]

8 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

There are far too many people in this world that have never heard of, never mind understand the phrase:

 

'' Too many cooks spoil the broth ''

 

This is especially true for people that have never actually had a job. 4 years at Uni and straight into politics is hardly a good, solid grounding in real life.

 

40 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

No uni for you then.

 

Then there are those that confirm, for some an education is wasted.

 

They are easily identified as the idiots that make erroneous assumptions about others.

[AlexRich]

8 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

 

Then there are those that confirm, for some an education is wasted.

 

They are easily identified as the idiots that make erroneous assumptions about others.

 

Agree. Your education was certainly wasted ... big baby Bilko! 

 

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

Well, I suppose rules are there to be broken, aren't they? 

 

Anyway Alex, 'it's the rules' isn't a valid reason, as you, yourself, have conceded that Merkel will just do the bailout anyway if she needs to. So, back to the real reason, which the German press are discussing: it's going to be an issue in the forthcoming general election (as is the issue of free movement). Now, if this bailout is costing a 'rounding error', and less than Germany stands to loose from restricted trade with the UK, why would it even be of concern to anybody, let alone be an election issue? But, Alex would have us believe that all the problems are at our door.

[SgtRock]

A few interesting points from the French Minister for EU Affairs

 

Quote

Nearly all the EU’s member states could follow Britain’s lead and vote to leave the union, the French MP in charge of European affairs in Francois Hollande’s party has warned.

 

 

Quote

He however suggested less integreated trading area encompassing the EU, Norway, Switzerland, and other states that did not want to forge a federal Europe could be created.

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-referendum-britain-france-leave-vote-union-a7331426.html

 

The big one being the mention of a Federal Europe yet again.

 

[rockingrobin]

30 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

A few interesting points from the French Minister for EU Affairs

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-referendum-britain-france-leave-vote-union-a7331426.html

 

The big one being the mention of a Federal Europe yet again.

 

It was the Schuman Declaration in 1950 that sent Europe on its federal path

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/symbols/europe-day/schuman-declaration_en

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

Anyway Alex, 'it's the rules' isn't a valid reason, as you, yourself, have conceded that Merkel will just do the bailout anyway if she needs to. So, back to the real reason, which the German press are discussing: it's going to be an issue in the forthcoming general election (as is the issue of free movement). Now, if this bailout is costing a 'rounding error', and less than Germany stands to loose from restricted trade with the UK, why would it even be of concern to anybody, let alone be an election issue? But, Alex would have us believe that all the problems are at our door.

 

Again, please show me the quote where I state that there are no problems or issues in Germany, Europe or the EU? Again, trying to frame someone's opinion using your own words. However much I point it out, sad act that you are you just keep on doing it.

 

I don't think they will have much choice but to organise some sort of bailout as allowing it to fail would be a big issue. So why not do it now? Agree, it's a political issue. Election on the way and Italy have just been told they can't bailout their own banks without bondholders taking a hit. It's not the money ... it just looks bad politically. There hoping to hold off until after the elections. 

 

[SgtRock]

And the banking crisis in Germany just wont go away

 

Quote

The Deutsche Bank crisis could take Angela Merkel down – and the Euro

 

Quote

And yet it has become increasingly hard to ignore the slow-motion car crash that is Deutsche Bank, or to avoid the conclusion that something very nasty is developing at what was once seen as Europe’s strongest financial institution

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/09/26/the-deutsche-bank-crisis-could-take-angela-merkel-down--and-the/

 

The euro and the EZ will be the downfall of the EU.

[Khun Han]

"Again, please show me the quote where I state that there are no problems or issues in Germany, Europe or the EU? Again, trying to frame someone's opinion using your own words."

 

We went down this road a few hours ago. You never accept that you said what you said when you are caught out. You usually start nitpicking over exact wording, or straight-up lie about it (as with the Essex comedian nonsense), or a combination of the two. You need to grow up quite a lot in your debating, then you won't be at loggerheads with people like me, and you won't go on other peoples' ignore lists.

 

"I don't think they will have much choice but to organise some sort of bailout as allowing it to fail would be a big issue. So why not do it now? Agree, it's a political issue. Election on the way and Italy have just been told they can't bailout their own banks without bondholders taking a hit. It's not the money ... it just looks bad politically. There hoping to hold off until after the elections. "

 

So, at least you concede that the bailout issue isn't just about rules, as you initially claimed. It's political. And it's political because it's about a large amount of money (about 8bn Euros). Now that you've got your head around this, can you also understand that the issue of giving up an even larger amount of money in order to support a chastisement of brexit Britain is an even bigger political problem internally for Germany? And that these amounts of money aren't considered 'rounding errors' by the German public?

 

And there is still no reasonable debate about the stated EU strategy of working toward a Europe-wide superstate.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Khun Han

[AlexRich]

6 hours ago, Khun Han said:

"Again, please show me the quote where I state that there are no problems or issues in Germany, Europe or the EU? Again, trying to frame someone's opinion using your own words."

 

We went down this road a few hours ago. You never accept that you said what you said when you are caught out. You usually start nitpicking over exact wording, or straight-up lie about it (as with the Essex comedian nonsense), or a combination of the two. You need to grow up quite a lot in your debating, then you won't be at loggerheads with people like me, and you won't go on other peoples' ignore lists.

 

"I don't think they will have much choice but to organise some sort of bailout as allowing it to fail would be a big issue. So why not do it now? Agree, it's a political issue. Election on the way and Italy have just been told they can't bailout their own banks without bondholders taking a hit. It's not the money ... it just looks bad politically. There hoping to hold off until after the elections. "

 

So, at least you concede that the bailout issue isn't just about rules, as you initially claimed. It's political. And it's political because it's about a large amount of money (about 8bn Euros). Now that you've got your head around this, can you also understand that the issue of giving up an even larger amount of money in order to support a chastisement of brexit Britain is an even bigger political problem internally for Germany? And that these amounts of money aren't considered 'rounding errors' by the German public?

 

And there is still no reasonable debate about the stated EU strategy of working toward a Europe-wide superstate.

 

More tiresome and and deliberate misinterpretation of points being made.

 

The fact is that the EU introduced a "bail out" rule fairly recently. Italy wanted to bail out some troubled banks and were told no ... my understanding is that Germany wanted to stick to the rules. So the rule is a fact. I never said anything about it being the sole reason. Germany don't want to bail out banks, full stop. They want to stick to the rules. It would look very bad if they did, especially with an election soon.

 

My point is that they will have no choice but to do it, whether they want to or not, even if they don't realise it currently. It's got little to do with money ... it's the political embarrassment of setting a rule and then going back on it ... and would cost them votes and open the floodgates to other member states to do likewise. The money is irrelevant, as is your attempt to connect money to the car revenues ... which incidentally are a non-material proportion of GDP. 

 

Time is on my side in this debate, not yours. Reality will catch up with you once the negotiations begin. We will all see then how desperate Germany is to avoid UK tariffs and what it is prepared to offer to avoid them. I think you'll find that you are the patsy at the poker table. Until then, you can keep up the pretence that the UK has the upper hand in negotiations. 

 

[SgtRock]

Keep your eyes closely on this.

 

Current share price has plunged to euro 10.59

 

Quote

For now, some analysts are focusing on the €10 euro level in Frankfurt trading. A move into single digits “would take Deutsche Bank into the realms of penny stocks and could see its share offloaded en masse,” wrote Jasper Lawler, market analyst at London-based CMC Markets, in a note.

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-deutsche-bank-woes-are-stressing-out-the-us-stock-market-2016-09-26

 

I fail to see why people are still getting their panties in a twist over Brexit negotiations.

 

This banking crisis is going to bring about 2 things.

 

1. The collapse of the euro that will lead to the collapse of the EZ. Brexit negotiations will not be necessary.

 

2. Merkel will break the rules and bail out both Deutche Bank and Commerze Bank, which will lead to bail outs in Italy and Spain. Which in turn will destroy any negotiating power that the EU might have had.

 

The EU

''But But But limiting the free movement of people is against EU rules.''

 

The UK

'' So is State bail-outs of banks now shut the duck up and lets negotiate.''

 

May, by luck or by design has played a blinder by delaying triggering A50.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2016 by SgtRock

[i claudius]

I see that the world trade organization has now said that Britain is doing better than expected after Brexit and even poor old George Osbourn is backtracking and saying that a plague of locusts is not going to descend on Britain ,oh how all their claims of doom and gloom are coming back to haunt them .

[rockingrobin]

3 hours ago, SgtRock said:

Keep your eyes closely on this.

 

Current share price has plunged to euro 10.59

 

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-deutsche-bank-woes-are-stressing-out-the-us-stock-market-2016-09-26

 

I fail to see why people are still getting their panties in a twist over Brexit negotiations.

 

This banking crisis is going to bring about 2 things.

 

1. The collapse of the euro that will lead to the collapse of the EZ. Brexit negotiations will not be necessary.

 

2. Merkel will break the rules and bail out both Deutche Bank and Commerze Bank, which will lead to bail outs in Italy and Spain. Which in turn will destroy any negotiating power that the EU might have had.

 

The EU

''But But But limiting the free movement of people is against EU rules.''

 

The UK

'' So is State bail-outs of banks now shut the duck up and lets negotiate.''

 

May, by luck or by design has played a blinder by delaying triggering A50.

 

 

Option 1 and 2 look mutually exclusive to me.

If option 1 was to occur , investors  would flee to a safe currency probably the USD , this would have the effect of drastically strengthening the USD and the mayhem would begin.

Of course its  not  going to happen ,the UK would be immune like in  the last financial crises and three  brexiteers will ride into town and  save the day .

[rockingrobin]

3 hours ago, i claudius said:

I see that the world trade organization has now said that Britain is doing better than expected after Brexit and even poor old George Osbourn is backtracking and saying that a plague of locusts is not going to descend on Britain ,oh how all their claims of doom and gloom are coming back to haunt them .

Here is the relevant  extract

 

' 

The outlook for the remainder of this year and next year is affected by a number of uncertainties, including financial volatility stemming from changes in monetary policy in developed countries, the possibility that growing anti-trade rhetoric will increasingly be reflected in trade policy, and the potential effects of the Brexit vote in the United Kingdom, which has increased uncertainty about future trading arrangements in Europe, a region where trade growth has been relatively strong.  

The UK referendum result did not produce an immediately observable downturn in economic activity as measured by industrial production or employment; the main impact was a 13% drop in the exchange rate of the pound against the US dollar and an 11% decline in its value against the euro. Effects over the longer term remain to be seen. Economic forecasts for the UK in 2017 range from fairly optimistic to quite pessimistic. Our forecast assumes an intermediate case, with a growth slowdown next year but not an outright recession.'

 

https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/pres16_e/pr779_e.htm

[Khun Han]

10 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

More tiresome and and deliberate misinterpretation of points being made.

 

The fact is that the EU introduced a "bail out" rule fairly recently. Italy wanted to bail out some troubled banks and were told no ... my understanding is that Germany wanted to stick to the rules. So the rule is a fact. I never said anything about it being the sole reason. Germany don't want to bail out banks, full stop. They want to stick to the rules. It would look very bad if they did, especially with an election soon.

 

My point is that they will have no choice but to do it, whether they want to or not, even if they don't realise it currently. It's got little to do with money ... it's the political embarrassment of setting a rule and then going back on it ... and would cost them votes and open the floodgates to other member states to do likewise. The money is irrelevant, as is your attempt to connect money to the car revenues ... which incidentally are a non-material proportion of GDP. 

 

Time is on my side in this debate, not yours. Reality will catch up with you once the negotiations begin. We will all see then how desperate Germany is to avoid UK tariffs and what it is prepared to offer to avoid them. I think you'll find that you are the patsy at the poker table. Until then, you can keep up the pretence that the UK has the upper hand in negotiations. 

 

 

The notion  that breaking EU rules is an election issue in Germany is plain daft. Most of the electorate couldn't care less, the same as any other EU member state's electorate. It's not as though member states don't already break EU rules when it suits, anyway. Come the hustings, the electorate want what they think is the best deal for themselves. It's all about the money.

 

You keep saying that time is on your side. But all the evidence points to time not being on the EU's side. I expect plenty of bravado from them right down to the wire, but they may well have next-to-nothing to negotiate with, come the nitty gritty.

[stander]

So much for Brexit fear, Apple to relocate its headquarters and 1400 staff to London in Battersea Power station.

http://news.sky.com/story/apple-to-base-london-headquarters-at-battersea-power-station-10596987

[SgtRock]

If anyone is still in any doubt about of the precarious position of Deutsche Bank is in, the ramifications for the euro and the EZ should it go t!ts up, should open their eyes immediately.

 

Germany issuing denials that are fooling no-one

 

Quote

Fears for the financial health of Deutsche Bank moved into the German political arena on Wednesday as Berlin was forced to deny it was preparing a rescue and Mario Draghi was grilled by the Bundestag over the future of the bank.

 

Draghi dragged to closed door meetings in the German parliament.

 

Quote

The European Central Bank president refused to answer questions on Deutsche during a closed-door meeting with legislators but told reporters after the session that negative interest rates imposed by the ECB were not responsible for the German financial system’s troubles.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/29fb59d6-856a-11e6-a29c-6e7d9515ad15

 

Tick Tock said the clock.

 

No Brexit negotiations will be necessary.

 

[SgtRock]

Sarkozy, it would appear, has his finger on the pulse, much to my surprise.

 

Quote

Former French president Nicolas Sarkozy has said he plans to offer Britain the chance to reverse its Brexit decision if he regains the leadership next year.

Mr Sarkozy told business leaders in Paris he would attempt to negotiate a new draft of the EU treaty with Germany shortly after the French presidential election in May, enabling the UK to reconsider the vote to leave the European Union.

 

This could be nothing more than Political posturing, although I do not see how that would fit in with the French people who will decide the election.

 

This is the part where he nails it and gets to the nitty gritty

 

Quote

“But this time not on the old Europe, on the new Europe. Do you want to stay? If yes, so much the better. Because I can’t accept to lose Europe’s second-largest economy while we are negotiating with Turkey over its EU membership. And if it’s no, then it’s a real no. You’re in or you’re out.”

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-nicolas-sarkozy-uk-chance-to-change-mind-if-french-president-a7334871.html

 

Its all about the money honey, and it at least appears, that Sarkozy is aware of the financial ramifications of the UK leaving the EU.

 

Sarkozy could win which could lead to a much changed EU

 

On the other hand, one more Islamic atrocity in France and Le Pen will win by a lanslide, Frexit to follow.

 

As people keep saying, interesting times ahead.

[JaseTheBass]

2 hours ago, stander said:

So much for Brexit fear, Apple to relocate its headquarters and 1400 staff to London in Battersea Power station.

http://news.sky.com/story/apple-to-base-london-headquarters-at-battersea-power-station-10596987

 

Apple is relocating its UK headquarters to another location in the UK. W T F has that got to do with Brexit?

Edited September 29, 2016 by JaseTheBass

[stander]

5 minutes ago, JaseTheBass said:

 

Apple is relocating its UK headquarters to another location in the UK. W T F has that got to do with Brexit?

The Remainers were predicting that the likes of Apple would leave the UK, but par for the course they got that one wrong too.

[brewsterbudgen]

The Remainers were predicting that the likes of Apple would leave the UK, but par for the course they got that one wrong too.

The UK hasn't left the EU and is unlikely to do so for many years, if at all. The full ramifications of the disastrous Brexit vote will not be fully clear for a long time.

[rockingrobin]

2 hours ago, SgtRock said:

Sarkozy, it would appear, has his finger on the pulse, much to my surprise.

 

 

This could be nothing more than Political posturing, although I do not see how that would fit in with the French people who will decide the election.

 

This is the part where he nails it and gets to the nitty gritty

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-nicolas-sarkozy-uk-chance-to-change-mind-if-french-president-a7334871.html

 

Its all about the money honey, and it at least appears, that Sarkozy is aware of the financial ramifications of the UK leaving the EU.

 

Sarkozy could win which could lead to a much changed EU

 

On the other hand, one more Islamic atrocity in France and Le Pen will win by a lanslide, Frexit to follow.

 

As people keep saying, interesting times ahead.

 'Sarkozy said the new treaty would focus on reforming the Schengen passport-free zone, restricting the European Commission's prerogatives to a dozen, integrating the eurozone further and halting membership talks with Turkey, according to FT '

 

' "But this time not on the old Europe, on the new Europe. Do you want to stay? If yes, so much the better. Because I can't accept to lose Europe's second-largest economy while we are negotiating with Turkey over its EU membership. And if it's no, then it's a real no. You're in or you're out." '

 

So thats further integration , and a contradictory statement on Turkey, firstly he would halt talks but still negotating

[AlexRich]

17 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

The notion  that breaking EU rules is an election issue in Germany is plain daft. Most of the electorate couldn't care less, the same as any other EU member state's electorate. It's not as though member states don't already break EU rules when it suits, anyway. Come the hustings, the electorate want what they think is the best deal for themselves. It's all about the money.

 

You keep saying that time is on your side. But all the evidence points to time not being on the EU's side. I expect plenty of bravado from them right down to the wire, but they may well have next-to-nothing to negotiate with, come the nitty gritty.

 

No government wants to be accused of being hypocritical (although I appreciate that is something that you will find hard to understand) and it would be a political own goal. Germany insist that others conform to the rules set so it will be politically embarrassing for them to have to bail out Deutsche Bank. Not good for forthcoming elections or for stances taken with European members. I think the market may well force their hand ... but that might not happen immediately.

 

Time is of course on my side. Article 50 is the starting gun for negotiations and the strength of the UKs negotiation position will be revealed. And your argument that Germany would never risk a few car sales will be put to the test. Meanwhile, check the Daily Mail ... car manufacturer body warning government not to be lulled into a false sense of security ... tariffs would be a big negative for their business. Tick tock.

[stander]

Bank of England climbs down over Brexit warnings and says the UK economic outlook is positive.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/715480/Carney-Brexit-Bank-England-admits-Britain-economic-outlook-POSITIVE-EU

 

THE governor of the Bank of England admitted today that Britain's long-term economic outlook remains positive following the vote to leave the EU.

[stander]

Brexit U-turns: who is rowing back on their Project Fear warnings?

 

In the run-up to the referendum, we were warned Brexit would unleash misery. George Osborne suggested a vote for Brexit would lead to a DIY recession. And numerous business bosses and the great and the good piled in to add their warnings to the doom-mongering. Yet in the weeks since the referendum, their predictions of chaos have not come true. What’s more, many of those shouting the loudest about the consequence of Brexit are now furiously rowing back on their warnings. Here, The Spectator compiles the Brexit u-turns and referendum backtracking:

 

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/brexit-u-turns-rowing-back-project-fear-warnings/

[dick dasterdly]

At the moment, I think voters (and governments) in most EU countries are waiting to see what happens.

 

Will the Brit. economy suffer serious damage as a result of the brexit vote?

 

What will be happen re. the banks with serious problems within the EU?

 

How will voters vote in up-coming elections in EU countries?

 

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

No government wants to be accused of being hypocritical (although I appreciate that is something that you will find hard to understand) and it would be a political own goal. Germany insist that others conform to the rules set so it will be politically embarrassing for them to have to bail out Deutsche Bank. Not good for forthcoming elections or for stances taken with European members. I think the market may well force their hand ... but that might not happen immediately.

 

Time is of course on my side. Article 50 is the starting gun for negotiations and the strength of the UKs negotiation position will be revealed. And your argument that Germany would never risk a few car sales will be put to the test. Meanwhile, check the Daily Mail ... car manufacturer body warning government not to be lulled into a false sense of security ... tariffs would be a big negative for their business. Tick tock.

 

"No government wants to be accused of being hypocritical"

 

We were discussing how a bailout of Deutsche Bank would be interpreted by the German electorate during the forthcoming general election. If you think that loss of German face over breaking EU rules is going to be the vote swinger, then all I can say is that your fervour for remaining is affecting your judgement. The only arguments at the hustings will be about whether or not the bailout is/was value for money, and whether or not the government should be bailing out fat cat bankers: it's the money that will be the focus of debate.

 

You carry on believing that time is on your side of the argument, and I'll carry on believing it's on mine. The evidence is certainly on mine. Bluster from European politicians is on yours.

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

The UK hasn't left the EU and is unlikely to do so for many years, if at all. The full ramifications of the disastrous Brexit vote will not be fully clear for a long time.

 

How long? Apple wouldn't make such a major HQ change for a short-term move.

 

Remainers are starting to sound like Seventh Day Adventists. They have The Faith.