Massive Loss From Thaksin Projects

[brazil]

http://bangkokpost.net/scorecard2006/thaksin.html

funny how this article slipped trough the net.

it just goes to show how many people today just follow the news in thailand as if they are all brain dead.

they should rename this website www.taksinbashing.com

how many more articles by thai people with links against taksin will we have to endure on this website.

it seems right now that many of these articles against taksin are really scrapping the barrel for worthy print material.

every government in thailand is corrupt and will be corrupt for the rest of its history.

in the last 70 years how many times do we hear about a purchase of a few tanks which cost double the amount they supposed to cost. um? corruption!!

how about the great naval warship bought from the aussie navy.just sitting in sattahip. why?

how about all those governemnt ministers investing in their own private scheme to import iraqi oil in the early nineties even though they was an oil embargo on that country.Even though it was an illegal action which went against the thai government at the time. not one of them paid any tax on that oil. where did all there non tax profits go? um probably in a few nice homes in milan?

how about the great crime of the bangkok highways charging 40 baht when really it should be 10 baht? i remember taksin was threatened by certain people that if he reduced the charge to 10 baht that his life could be in jeopardy. and funny enough a bomb was found a week later on his plane? corruption?

history of 70 years in thailand tells the complete story.

CORRUPTION ALL THE WAY PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE

IF YOU DONT LIKE IT GUYS THEN LEAVE TO ANOTHER COUNTRY.

I LOVE IT

AND THATS WHY I LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY.

[sriracha john]

Thaksin's "flawed perception" examined

- The Brunei Times

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting article from a newspaper which is quite pro-government in Brunei...ruled by one of the richest men in the world, the Sultan.

I don't dispute your socio-economic observations on Brunei, but I believe the article was written by the paper because the regional conference was held there. The article focuses on what a Thai scholar, from the well-respected NIDA, said about Thailand during her presention to the conference with very minimal input from the paper itself.

Edited November 21, 2006 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

it just goes to show how many people today just follow the news in thailand as if they are all brain dead.

it seems right now that many of these articles against taksin are really scrapping the barrel for worthy print material.

I'm not aware of any policy by thaivisa that prohibits pro-Thaksin articles.

If you wish to post them as, please feel to do so...

but please do so in a non-flaming manner as that is prohibited by thaivisa.

[younghusband]

it just goes to show how many people today just follow the news in thailand as if they are all brain dead.

it seems right now that many of these articles against taksin are really scrapping the barrel for worthy print material.

I'm not aware of any policy by thaivisa that prohibits pro-Thaksin articles.

If you wish to post them as, please feel to do so...

but please do so in a non-flaming manner as that is prohibited by thaivisa.

Give it a rest, don't be so pompous and stop pretending to be a moderator.You have been obsessively bombarding the forum with anti-Thaksin material for months which is your right but, without wishing to be unkind, there is not much evidence of any kind of critical intelligence at work.Very few of us are admirers of Thaksin but on the other hand he was by no means the worst Thai prime minister, and does actually have some achievements to his credit.The Bangkok elite hate him not for his wrongdoings so much as for challenging their dominance of the country.

I don't have any problem with intelligent criticism but there there needs to be a better understanding on your part of shades and nuances if you want to be taken seriously.I hardly ever agree with Plus for example but always take him seriously because there is an obvious intellect and knowledge at play.

A suggested tip.Don't change your line but cut down your posts to say two a day and make them really thoughtful and penetrating.Are you up to it?

[Plus]

So listed companies benefited during Thaksin's rule. Funny that he declared he was working for the benefit of the poor all this time.

Everyone knows that it was only a facade, he represented interests of big business, and they were the ones to reap the benefits, not the farmers.

I don't accept "no one is without a sin, don't try to punish me" logic. If they can get Thaksin that would be a good deterrent for future governments (corrupt as usual, of course).

[sriracha john]

it just goes to show how many people today just follow the news in thailand as if they are all brain dead.

it seems right now that many of these articles against taksin are really scrapping the barrel for worthy print material.

I'm not aware of any policy by thaivisa that prohibits pro-Thaksin articles.

If you wish to post them as, please feel to do so...

but please do so in a non-flaming manner as that is prohibited by thaivisa.

< flame snipped >

You have been obsessively bombarding the forum with anti-Thaksin material for months

there's a lot of it out there...

Very few of us are admirers of Thaksin

I appreciate your honesty

but on the other hand he was by no means the worst Thai prime minister, and does actually have some achievements to his credit.

as previously stated, feel free to post them

thank you for your contribution

[Jai Dee]

OK... enough of the personal attacks and keep the discussion on topic please.

[Plus]

It's an illusion that anti-government articles are hard to find. Just not on Thaivisa.

The fact that we do not copy-paste them here doesn't mean that we are brain-dead or that they don't exist.

[hammered]

It's an illusion that anti-government articles are hard to find. Just not on Thaivisa.

The fact that we do not copy-paste them here doesn't mean that we are brain-dead or that they don't exist.

Also a lot of the anti-government stuff is also not pro-Thaksin. There is also some pro-Thaksin stuff that is not really anti-anyone. I guess it is up to individuals to post what they want. It all makes for interesting reading although from a personal point of view I would like to see our own analysis move on from the somewhat simplistic Thaksin versus Coup leaders debate.

Peace.

[younghusband]

It's an illusion that anti-government articles are hard to find. Just not on Thaivisa.

The fact that we do not copy-paste them here doesn't mean that we are brain-dead or that they don't exist.

I suspect you know as well as anyone that Thaksin vs Junta issues are just a sideshow to what the current political crisis is all about.However we aren't allowed to discuss the real agenda on this forum. although most of Thailand knows the score.So although the discussion here can be quite interesting, it will only partly reflect what's going on.For a fair minded discussion (by which I mean an intelligent give and take of views with no area off limits) we have to look elsewhere I'm afraid.

But if you are looking for an obsessive and mind numbingly frequent exposition of basically the same point, this is the place for you.

[Plus]

But if you are looking for an obsessive and mind numbingly frequent exposition of basically the same point, this is the place for you.

You don't refer to the "secret" that we can't discuss but that pops up every few pages, do you? Yes, I agree, it's tiring.

[Jai Dee]

However we aren't allowed to discuss the real agenda on this forum. although most of Thailand knows the score.So although the discussion here can be quite interesting, it will only partly reflect what's going on.

That is (unfortunately) correct and I would take this opportunity to remind you all of the Forum Rules and the following in particular:

All media was 2006-09-21 ordered by ICT to exercise censorship of any news critical of the coup-makers and the new military regime. Offenders face up to six months in jail, a fine of up to Bt10,000, or both.

This also prohibit Thaivisa to publish such content. We kindly ask our members to refrain from posting sensitive political content. We reserve the rights to delete content that could be dangerous for the operation of our website. Forum admins and moderators are instructed to delete any references whatsoever to Thai Royalty or the Interim administrators/appointed governments by any member during the present political crisis.

Until the ICT lifts this, we are constrained by this decree.

[sriracha john]

100 Billion Baht in 'Vested Interest' projects axed

The budget scrutiny committee of the National Legislative Assembly (NLA) is killing more projects earmarked by the ousted government, after deeming them ''vested interests'' of the former ruling Thai Rak Thai party. Committee spokesman Praphan Khoonmee said the panel met yesterday and resolved to cancel projects that former Thai Rak Thai (TRT) MPs had initiated to attract money from the national budget for their constituencies. The projects were worth more than 100 billion baht, he said.

They were planned separately over the past two years in each province instead of being integrated for effectiveness, he said. It was found that 20% of the budget for each project had already been spent although many projects had not even undergone any feasibility studies.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/14Dec2006_news07.php

[Tony Clifton]

20% of the budget for each project had already been spent although many projects had not even undergone any feasibility studies.

Boy, the courts will be busy for years and law students will get to study new exemplary cases by the hundreds.

Thieves

Robbing

Thais

[johnh101]

Thailand will become the HUB of corruption related prosecutions........

[sriracha john]

Listed companies benefit from populist policies

Many listed companies’ performances and returns on investment are largely tied to major government policies, adopted to drive the Thai economy over the past few years.

The Thai economy has enjoyed robust growth during the past five years, thanks to the implementation of ‘‘dual-track’’ policies by the Thai Rak Thai-led government.

Of the market’s 27 sectors, health care has outperformed the others with a 75% five-year return.

Mr Supavud added: ‘‘Thailand has many world-class hospitals and they are also benefiting from medical tourism. A lot of patients from the Middle East, Singapore and even Europe come here for treatment.’’

- Bangkok Post

UPDATE with the repercussions...

Medical tourism worsens doctor crisis

A panel has been set up by the Public Health Ministry to assess how plans to make Thailand a regional medical hub will effect the healthcare system - because many top medical specialists have jumped to the private sector in recent years.

The trend is particularly worrying because medical schools have reportedly lost some of their most valuable teachers to private medical facilities. "If top medical experts really leave medical schools, grave damage is inflicted on the country's healthcare system. The government spends a lot of time and money to produce a capable medical expert," Dr Thinnakorn Noree said. Thinnakorn heads the Human Resources for Health Research and Development Office.

In 2003, the government led by Thaksin Shinawatra launched a project to turn Thailand into a regional medical hub.

Thinnakorn said: "On the one hand, the project attracts about Bt50 billion each year for the country. But on the other hand, the Public Health Ministry and state authorities are worried about human resources available to them [given doctors shifting to the private sector]."

"This problem has been discussed for a long time, but until now there has been no research or study established to get deep into the information." He said Privy Councillor Kasem Wattanachai would chair the panel and convene its first meeting next Monday (Feb 11).

The exodus of doctors from the public hospitals to private hospitals has been blamed on the medical hub project, according to the ministry's study. Lower pay at state facilities plus greatly increased workloads on medical staff because of the introduction of the Bt30 health system - which caused a huge jump in the number of hospital visits - have also played a role.

However, data relating to the "brain drain" is scant. That's why the Public Health Ministry wants to conduct a study to try to gauge possible impacts from the predicament.

The first phase of the medical hub project was implemented in the five years to 2008. A sub-panel from the national health office will conduct a study to evaluate this and try to assess effects from implementation of the next phase.

The medical hub project includes three facets that aim to boost medical services such as sickness prevention, spa services and Thai massage. It also promotes Thai herbal medicine products.

A health ministry study estimates these projects have generated Bt200 billion over the past five years from medical services provided to millions of foreign patients who come to Thailand to take advantage of the lower cost of medical treatments available here. Private hospitals in Thailand benefited most from these projects, the study found. And some private hospitals started marketing strategies based on packaged services targeted more towards foreign patients.

The relatively competitive price, high quality services and excellent hospitality contributed to a rapid influx of foreign patients. The study forecasts that by 2015 up to eight million people will seek outpatient services here, plus 400,000 will seek medical treatment as patients in private hospitals.

Some 176 to 303 physicians will be needed to cater for this demand, which is equivalent to 23-24 per cent of the country's private doctors or 9-12 per cent of total doctors in the country.

"We expect this will draw a large amount of physicians into the private sector, and cause a shortage of medical workers in the public hospital system," Thinnakorn said.

Three trends have emerged in the exodus from the public health system:

- general specialists leaving provincial public hospitals to private hospitals;

- staff leaving public hospitals for medical schools;

- "super" specialists leaving medical schools to provide services to international patients at private hospitals.

Senior health officer Viroj Tangcharoensathient said future studies should focus on how to increase the supply of doctors and nurses needed to cope with the demand from medical tourism. They should also review the financial and non-financial incentives for medical staff in the rural public sector in order to improve its effectiveness and sustainability. The capacity for medical staff to work in private practice and part-time at state facilities should also be explored.

- The Nation

[jbowman1993]

Well we all know that this couldn't possibly be true. Everything Thaksin did for us, was motivated out of a sense of duty, honor, and selflessness. Right Lil?

[Ricardo]

Not to mention, paid-for out of his own pocket, not lottery-funds or government taxes.

[Gary A]

The VAT is the ONLY way you are going to get any tax from the corrupt officials. If they would figure out how to tax corruption the treasury would be bursting. At least with the populist policies, a little trickled down to the VERY poor people and many of elite ruling class resent that. Much, perhaps most income is hidden and no tax is paid. Why do you suppose most professional politicians are unusually wealthy? Thaksin's opposition hates him because he was smarter than they were. He found ways to manipulate the law to make his thievery legal where the majority simply steal and then maintain the good old boy network. You don't tell on me and I won't tell on you. Why do you think the military government spent over a year trying to prosecute Thaksin?

[Samuian]

Well we all know that this couldn't possibly be true. Everything Thaksin did for us, was motivated out of a sense of duty, honor, and selflessness. Right Lil?

Purely for the better of the people, this is why his clan's wealth has risen by a small margin of merely 300% in the time he's been in office... a well... his admirers will have to pay the bill, equally with his opponents!

[steveromagnino]

Of the market’s 27 sectors, health care has outperformed the others with a 75% five-year return.

....

In 2003, the government led by Thaksin Shinawatra launched a project to turn Thailand into a regional medical hub.

Sorry, haven't got quite the knack of quotes.

Noppadol controls Phayathai (that's Thaksin's lawyer, acquired during the TAMC fiasco of feeding by TRT officials); Thaksin reportedly also owns Paolo and a few others as well. Sudarat is a drug importer.

What a coincidence that there should be government money spent to create a medical hub in Thailand - surely that would be nice for all the little healthcare company owners?

Property....SC Asset.

Telcoms...AIS.

Oh what a tangled web we weave.....but according to some of course this was no more, but rather less corruption that in the past?!

Different type of corruption perhaps would be a better way to describe.

[sriracha john]

Of the market’s 27 sectors, health care has outperformed the others with a 75% five-year return.

....

In 2003, the government led by Thaksin Shinawatra launched a project to turn Thailand into a regional medical hub.

Sorry, haven't got quite the knack of quotes.

Noppadol controls Phayathai (that's Thaksin's lawyer, acquired during the TAMC fiasco of feeding by TRT officials); Thaksin reportedly also owns Paolo and a few others as well. Sudarat is a drug importer.

What a coincidence that there should be government money spent to create a medical hub in Thailand - surely that would be nice for all the little healthcare company owners?

Could we also put Surapong into this group of TRT'ers with medical business interests?

[Plus]

...At least with the populist policies, a little trickled down to the VERY poor people and many of elite ruling class resent that.

Do they? How do you know? Did anyone say he resents farmers becoming better off?

[Lilawadee]

...At least with the populist policies, a little trickled down to the VERY poor people and many of elite ruling class resent that.

Do they? How do you know? Did anyone say he resents farmers becoming better off?

Well, what can I say. It is the *DUTY* of elected government to empower and enable the population to advance themselves. Until Thaksin/TRT, Thai governments FAILED in that basic and obvious objective. So while we perhaps can't distill active resentment from that, at the very least we can conclude they just didn't give a &lt;deleted&gt;.

I think this topic was started well before I joined, but I think it's very obvious that the advancement of the poor people in a developing country costs money. Not sure if anyone is surprised at that, but apparenlty some are, and then even a few think the poor don't deserve it; I have nothing to say to them.

[Plus]

...At least with the populist policies, a little trickled down to the VERY poor people and many of elite ruling class resent that.

Do they? How do you know? Did anyone say he resents farmers becoming better off?

Well, what can I say. It is the *DUTY* of elected government to empower and enable the population to advance themselves. Until Thaksin/TRT, Thai governments FAILED in that basic and obvious objective. So while we perhaps can't distill active resentment from that, at the very least we can conclude they just didn't give a &lt;deleted&gt;.

I think this topic was started well before I joined, but I think it's very obvious that the advancement of the poor people in a developing country costs money. Not sure if anyone is surprised at that, but apparenlty some are, and then even a few think the poor don't deserve it; I have nothing to say to them.

So you don't know anyone who resents poor people getting better off. No example of those mysterious "elites", but you do mention previous governments.

Who do you mean? Chavalit, Deputy PM in Thaksin's government, maybe Banharn, member of Thaksin's first government (he did a lot for his own flock, btw). Maybe you mean Democrats who took over after the crash and saw the economy plunge down 20% in 1998 and were forced to cut social care schemes and increas VAT to 10%, on terms negotiated by Thanong Bidaya, who later became Thaksin's Finance Minister.

The main argument against Thaksin's policies is that he didn't empower and didn't enable the population to advance themselves. The way the village fund scheme was implemented achieved exactly the opposite - the poor now depend on the government more than ever. After the initial euphoria of buying hand phones and motorcycles passed they were left with more debts, less skills, and more demands.

It's not too late to give some examples of people resenting improvements in poor's lives.

Thaksin used this argument to create an image of an enemy and rally his supporters against it. He didn't offer any proof either.

[chownah]

In my village almost everyone in my neighborhood borrowed 5,000baht from the village fund and my wife reports that they all paid their loans back on time....some of them have borrowed for a second time. My wife doesn't know what they bought but probably things like cell phones, motorcycles, hot showers,.....generally speaking consumer items and farm equipment and supplies.... It seems that what this has done is to give my neighbors a way to avoid paying exorbitant interest to loan sharks which is what they would have done before this program. Evidentally the million baht fund is an ongoing source of low cost short term capitalisation for the people in the village.....does this make it a success?....the villagers here think so. Of course it didn't create any big capitalist revolution here...didn't create any industrial sweat shops where people can act and be treated like cogs in a machine so I'm sure that there are some here who will think that it has been a failure.

Chownah

Edited February 5, 2008 by chownah

[Plus]

It could have been much more than that.

There are better ways to lift themselves from poverty than spending money on consumer goods.

Ever hread "give man a fish and feed him for one day, teach him to fish and feed him for his whole life"?

Some farmers used the money to invest in theri farming, but many just bought phones and crap.

[steveromagnino]

In my village almost everyone in my neighborhood borrowed 5,000baht from the village fund and my wife reports that they all paid their loans back on time....some of them have borrowed for a second time. My wife doesn't know what they bought but probably things like cell phones, motorcycles, hot showers,.....generally speaking consumer items and farm equipment and supplies.... It seems that what this has done is to give my neighbors a way to avoid paying exorbitant interest to loan sharks which is what they would have done before this program. Evidentally the million baht fund is an ongoing source of low cost short term capitalisation for the people in the village.....does this make it a success?....the villagers here think so. Of course it didn't create any big capitalist revolution here...didn't create any industrial sweat shops where people can act and be treated like cogs in a machine so I'm sure that there are some here who will think that it has been a failure.

Chownah

Your village may be part of a sizeable minority; I think something like 55% of the village funds were never paid back according to some NESDB study, and the majority of funds were not used for micro capital (the aim of the fund) but rather to refinance existing debt to loan sharks or for consumer items - motorcycles, cell phones and hot showers are all discretionary spending and should NOT be encouraged to put people into debt for. Farm equipment, supplies - yes this is the concept of what the money is supposed to be for.

But then again, now you have the farmers lined up for debt forgiveness AGAIN so on average you have to wonder whether anyone should be lending to this line of business, and instead perhaps whether they should be educated and encouraged to do something better.

As with most TRT schemes - seemingly good idea totally screwed over by mysterious forces behind the scenes and unbelievably bad implementation.

Another NESDB study showed many rural folk to be in more debt now than before, as the result of having access to more money, but without skills to budget.

Your village sounds like the concept of how this money could help - sounds great ;-)

To be honest, I am totally confused how successive governments have ignored the rural poor; this was a myth created by TRT, and it reads really well. Reference back to Kukrit AGAIN or Chatichai AGAIN - but oh no, TRT story telling leads us to believe that Thaksin dragged himself up from poverty just like them and is the first PM to ever love and care for them, and not sell the country out to foreigners like Chuan did.

Until you remember that Sanoh, Banharn, Chavalit, etc....for the most part have been in and out of the govt (and in some cases almost always in) for the last few successive governments for years. And that Thaksin came from an affluent family that fell on hard times for like 1-2 years. And that he has virtually nothing in common with most rural poor (educated abroad, govt connections, etc etc). And that he and TRT sold out more national assets to foreigners and themselves than Chuan ever managed to.

We all believe what we want to believe. Many rural folk currently choose Thaksin ahead of any other person in the Kingdom of Thailand and aren't afraid to say so anymore, despite the seemingly illegal nature of saying things like this. That photo was a bit of a test to see what would happen, and it sems like the majority of voters wouldn't even mind if that were the case.

Whether the majority know exactly what they are wishing for is open to question; I just wish I could meet this mysterious Bangkok elite that control everything and are so evil in wanting to keep the rural poor...well... rural and poor.

[sriracha john]

but oh no, TRT story telling leads us to believe that Thaksin dragged himself up from poverty just like them and is the first PM to ever love and care for them

And that he has virtually nothing in common with most rural poor (educated abroad, govt connections, etc etc)

encapsulated the crux of this issue for history by...

Quite the successful road tour for the new boy band, Samak and the Proxies.

Reminiscent of Thaksin's Issan road show guffaws like taking a splash shower in some farmer's outdoor hut to show he's a man of the common folk... then drying off with a 30,000 baht Italian-designer label linen towel purchased at The Emporium.

[simplicius]

To be honest, I am totally confused how successive governments have ignored the rural poor; this was a myth created by TRT, and it reads really well. Reference back to Kukrit AGAIN or Chatichai AGAIN - but oh no, TRT story telling leads us to believe that Thaksin dragged himself up from poverty just like them and is the first PM to ever love and care for them, and not sell the country out to foreigners like Chuan did.

...

We all believe what we want to believe. Many rural folk currently choose Thaksin ahead of any other person in the Kingdom of Thailand and aren't afraid to say so anymore, despite the seemingly illegal nature of saying things like this.

It is all a question of perception. To stop being confused and to understand the factors that create perception under folks other than ones own immediate social environment one has to interact with the different levels of society - a particularly difficult thing here in this extremely hirarchal society.

What helped TRT to create the 'myth' were the Democrats post '97 - undoubtably they have contributed more to solve the crises than is given them credit for. Yet, on village level they were absent - they failed to communicate to the villagers, they failed to adress their specific problems. And as usual they have talked in Bangkok a lot about the things that they supposedly did in the villages, yet, which often never happened. At least TRT did manage to communicate to the villagers creating the perception that their programs were more successful than they actually were (and they were not all bad either).

Which is politics, anywhere. And there the Democrats failed misreably. And unless they learn that lesson they will not be elected, and an abrasive rightwinger (or a populist crook) will always win an election against a streamline politician who has never uttered an original thought in public, assuming that he actually has that ability.

Kukrit, long gone. Chatchai - as disputed as Thaksin, the coup against him initially supported by the same classes that supported the latest powergrab, and still loved by villagers (not as much as Thaksin though).

Regarding your second comment - it is a sign of emancipation that those villagers finally are forming and stating their political views, and dare to disagree. What you or me might judge as wrong - lets not forget that our views are often also formed under a certain ignorance of our opponent's perceptions.

At least these people speak out now - there is hope that Thailand one day might become a democracy.