Alwyn Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 If you have a captured terrorist who can reveal information that will save lives but he will not give this information up, then why not waterboarding or shoot a couple of fingers off etc? Because it is far from guaranteed to provide accurate information. And more to the point, there's that gap between acknowledging the use of unsavory means and "loving them". That's without getting into deeper legal and moral issues. I get the bit about "enjoying the work" too much and I agree with you. I personally have no karmic or moral concerns about applying some fear and pain to a terrorist if I believe it will get results. It's not like we're talking about obtaining a statement for the police at this level. At this level the idea would be obtaining information to prevent more terror attacks. These guys are not worrying about the mayhem and carnage they cause so live by the sword, die by the sword in my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right, it means it's my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 If you have a captured terrorist who can reveal information that will save lives but he will not give this information up, then why not waterboarding or shoot a couple of fingers off etc? Because it is far from guaranteed to provide accurate information. And more to the point, there's that gap between acknowledging the use of unsavory means and "loving them". That's without getting into deeper legal and moral issues. I get the bit about "enjoying the work" too much and I agree with you. I personally have no karmic or moral concerns about applying some fear and pain to a terrorist if I believe it will get results. It's not like we're talking about obtaining a statement for the police at this level. At this level the idea would be obtaining information to prevent more terror attacks. These guys are not worrying about the mayhem and carnage they cause so live by the sword, die by the sword in my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right, it means it's my opinion. Even without the moral aspect, the quality and accuracy of information received would be suspect. Allowing such practices based on a belief, is somewhat problematical even from an operational point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilostmypassword Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 The problem with torture is that we've seen too many movies in which we know who the bad guy is. So we know that if enough pain or injury is applied to him he will cough up the truth. The problem is in the real world, more often than not, we don't know. So if we pick up someone who hasn't a clue, he or she will say anything to make the pain step. The reason the FBI is against torture is not due to moral considerations, but because there are far better methods for getting information from suspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinot Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Donald Trump refuses to be politically correct or correct. What an idiot. He really is a terrible human being, a thinned skinned racist bully. These crazy posts by his supporters are getting more out there into the netherlands of wingnuttia, winnowed down to the true essence of weirdness. Tin foil hats for everybody. Hooray! Every day we find out more info about what a rotten human being Trump is. They can't find any charitable donations from Billionaire Trump in the last 10 years. They had to hold his feet to the fire to get the money for the vets he said he raised a few months ago. "I'm very rich", turns out to be "I"m very cheap and selfish." Where are the tax returns, you cheap bastard? How does this go on for another five months? Great businessman? Or incompetent lying huckster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinot Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 If you have a captured terrorist who can reveal information that will save lives but he will not give this information up, then why not waterboarding or shoot a couple of fingers off etc? Because it is far from guaranteed to provide accurate information. And more to the point, there's that gap between acknowledging the use of unsavory means and "loving them". That's without getting into deeper legal and moral issues. I get the bit about "enjoying the work" too much and I agree with you. I personally have no karmic or moral concerns about applying some fear and pain to a terrorist if I believe it will get results. It's not like we're talking about obtaining a statement for the police at this level. At this level the idea would be obtaining information to prevent more terror attacks. These guys are not worrying about the mayhem and carnage they cause so live by the sword, die by the sword in my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right, it means it's my opinion. Is life just a long episode of "24" for you? Bang bang. Jack Bauer fighting the bad guys of the world. Silly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwyn Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 If you have a captured terrorist who can reveal information that will save lives but he will not give this information up, then why not waterboarding or shoot a couple of fingers off etc? Because it is far from guaranteed to provide accurate information. And more to the point, there's that gap between acknowledging the use of unsavory means and "loving them". That's without getting into deeper legal and moral issues. I get the bit about "enjoying the work" too much and I agree with you. I personally have no karmic or moral concerns about applying some fear and pain to a terrorist if I believe it will get results. It's not like we're talking about obtaining a statement for the police at this level. At this level the idea would be obtaining information to prevent more terror attacks. These guys are not worrying about the mayhem and carnage they cause so live by the sword, die by the sword in my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right, it means it's my opinion. Even without the moral aspect, the quality and accuracy of information received would be suspect. Allowing such practices based on a belief, is somewhat problematical even from an operational point of view. I understand where your coming from. I just don't really agree whole heartedly. Information might be suspect, this is true. If the fear of repercussions is great enough though, it might work. I agree it might not work too but any activity is better than none. These animals have to understand the will not be pampered but will be subjected to an unenjoyable experience. They don't like it? Then they should have chosen a different profession Morch. If boarding gets just one result from 100 applications, it must be worthwhile, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovaBlue05 Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 This outrageous statement is as far as you can go from being PC, dose he have method to his madness that we're all oblivious to I wonder?...... Better to be politically incorrect than have body parts hanging from trees. So you think that being politically incorrect is somehow being strong or tough on terrorism? Do you know how asinine that sounds? Political correctness is a method of social control that is designed to prevent inconvenient issues being addressed. Those who submit to it are craven conformists. The politically incorrect are simply thinking for themselves and not afraid to speak out. It's a new groundswell, and Trump is deliberately tapping into that. The publicly expressed moral outrage & disgust that world leaders express against it is bull$hit anyway to pacify the masses and the media. There isn't a country out there that doesn't practice enhanced interrogation, including waterboarding, on as-needed basis. If they happen to get caught, they simply tell the media it was an isolated incident by one rogue agent and then re-affirm their original moral outrage & disgust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwyn Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 If you have a captured terrorist who can reveal information that will save lives but he will not give this information up, then why not waterboarding or shoot a couple of fingers off etc? Because it is far from guaranteed to provide accurate information. And more to the point, there's that gap between acknowledging the use of unsavory means and "loving them". That's without getting into deeper legal and moral issues. I get the bit about "enjoying the work" too much and I agree with you. I personally have no karmic or moral concerns about applying some fear and pain to a terrorist if I believe it will get results. It's not like we're talking about obtaining a statement for the police at this level. At this level the idea would be obtaining information to prevent more terror attacks. These guys are not worrying about the mayhem and carnage they cause so live by the sword, die by the sword in my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right, it means it's my opinion. Is life just a long episode of "24" for you? Bang bang. Jack Bauer fighting the bad guys of the world. Silly Thanks for joining in with such insightful comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Off-topic posts removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slipperylobster Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Donald Trump refuses to be politically correct or correct. What an idiot. He really is a terrible human being, a thinned skinned racist bully. These crazy posts by his supporters are getting more out there into the netherlands of wingnuttia, winnowed down to the true essence of weirdness. Tin foil hats for everybody. Hooray! Every day we find out more info about what a rotten human being Trump is. They can't find any charitable donations from Billionaire Trump in the last 10 years. They had to hold his feet to the fire to get the money for the vets he said he raised a few months ago. "I'm very rich", turns out to be "I"m very cheap and selfish." Where are the tax returns, you cheap bastard? How does this go on for another five months? Great businessman? Or incompetent lying huckster? How hypocritical ! Hillary is a proven liar in office.....a brazen beetch bully to her staff, nothing but failures on her work ethic. Untold Millions from countries that support torture of their own citizens. Yet you are not a nut for loving her. lol Edited June 30, 2016 by slipperylobster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Because it is far from guaranteed to provide accurate information. And more to the point, there's that gap between acknowledging the use of unsavory means and "loving them". That's without getting into deeper legal and moral issues. I get the bit about "enjoying the work" too much and I agree with you. I personally have no karmic or moral concerns about applying some fear and pain to a terrorist if I believe it will get results. It's not like we're talking about obtaining a statement for the police at this level. At this level the idea would be obtaining information to prevent more terror attacks. These guys are not worrying about the mayhem and carnage they cause so live by the sword, die by the sword in my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right, it means it's my opinion. Even without the moral aspect, the quality and accuracy of information received would be suspect. Allowing such practices based on a belief, is somewhat problematical even from an operational point of view. I understand where your coming from. I just don't really agree whole heartedly. Information might be suspect, this is true. If the fear of repercussions is great enough though, it might work. I agree it might not work too but any activity is better than none. These animals have to understand the will not be pampered but will be subjected to an unenjoyable experience. They don't like it? Then they should have chosen a different profession Morch. If boarding gets just one result from 100 applications, it must be worthwhile, no? There's a wide selection of interrogation techniques. Some nastier than others. Some more physical than others. There's no great correlation, as far as I am aware, between actually inflicting physical pain and the quality of the resulting information. Having a coherent exchange with someone who was just subjected to repeated waterboarding can be tricky. There is also no direct relation between criticizing use of waterboarding and "pampering". Not an either/or thing there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanukjim Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Waterboarding has been great in the discoveries of plans to do harm to multiple people in many countries.If it can help save me and my family from these coward militants then I am all for it. Pulling finger and toe nails out is OK also. Neither one of these" information obtaining tricks" leaves permanent damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Waterboarding has been great in the discoveries of plans to do harm to multiple people in many countries.If it can help save me and my family from these coward militants then I am all for it. Pulling finger and toe nails out is OK also. Neither one of these" information obtaining tricks" leaves permanent damage. Far as I recall, the CIA statements actually said it wasn't that great, and that it can leave permanent damage. There were at least a couple of topics on TVF discussing the gory details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Yeah, we'll torture you, but only a little bit. It's effectiveness is not in question, everybody talks under torture (except maybe some Xnian martyrs), of course what they say may be a load of BS, anything to stop the pain. What is in question is its moral value. What is the point in my adopting my opponents moral stance, if that moral stance is what I oppose. I become the same as him. That is way too complex a concept to even register in the minds of those Trump is bellowing at. Come to think of it, it is probably way too complex a concept to register in the mind of Donald Trump Edited June 30, 2016 by JAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berty100 Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Waterboarding has been great in the discoveries of plans to do harm to multiple people in many countries.If it can help save me and my family from these coward militants then I am all for it. Pulling finger and toe nails out is OK also. Neither one of these" information obtaining tricks" leaves permanent damage. Far as I recall, the CIA statements actually said it wasn't that great, and that it can leave permanent damage. There were at least a couple of topics on TVF discussing the gory details. Last time I looked at it, suicide bombers and gunmen also leave permanent damage, actually a lot of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Ex-CIA boss Hayden: I'd be 'frightened' by Trump presidency The former director of the Central Intelligence Agency says he would be "frightened" of a Donald Trump presidency, based on what the Republican frontrunner has said about Mexicans, immigrants, and preventing Muslims from entering the US. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35656256 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracyb Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 This outrageous statement is as far as you can go from being PC, dose he have method to his madness that we're all oblivious to I wonder?...... No method.... Just madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Waterboarding has been great in the discoveries of plans to do harm to multiple people in many countries.If it can help save me and my family from these coward militants then I am all for it. Pulling finger and toe nails out is OK also. Neither one of these" information obtaining tricks" leaves permanent damage. Far as I recall, the CIA statements actually said it wasn't that great, and that it can leave permanent damage. There were at least a couple of topics on TVF discussing the gory details. Last time I looked at it, suicide bombers and gunmen also leave permanent damage, actually a lot of it. Try reading the previous posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Watch Christopher Hitchens Get Waterboarded - Vanity Fair https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58 Edited June 30, 2016 by MJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berty100 Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Waterboarding has been great in the discoveries of plans to do harm to multiple people in many countries.If it can help save me and my family from these coward militants then I am all for it. Pulling finger and toe nails out is OK also. Neither one of these" information obtaining tricks" leaves permanent damage. Far as I recall, the CIA statements actually said it wasn't that great, and that it can leave permanent damage. There were at least a couple of topics on TVF discussing the gory details. Last time I looked at it, suicide bombers and gunmen also leave permanent damage, actually a lot of it. Try reading the previous posts. And your point is ? I support most of Trump's comments, and especially the one in the OP, and I'm not afraid to admit that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Far as I recall, the CIA statements actually said it wasn't that great, and that it can leave permanent damage. There were at least a couple of topics on TVF discussing the gory details. Last time I looked at it, suicide bombers and gunmen also leave permanent damage, actually a lot of it. Try reading the previous posts. And your point is ? I support most of Trump's comments, and especially the one in the OP, and I'm not afraid to admit that. The point was that your previous post was pointless. No one claimed terrorists do not leave permanent damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerangutang Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 This outrageous statement is as far as you can go from being PC, dose he have method to his madness that we're all oblivious to I wonder?...... Right now the islamist's know if they get caught they will be treated well unlike what they do to captives. He is balancing the situation. In short he is saying you will be subject to nasty stuff which he is hoping will make many of the ISIL wannabe members think twice about joining. .....except Donald's tough talk is the best thing for ISIS recruitment. Even if he really believed what he's saying about torture, he's an ass for broadcasting it to the world. For starters, it's illegal. The Donald already has an abysmal reputation with all sensible leaders worldwide. By opening his pie hole, he's further lowering himself into the shit pit. I wouldn't care if it was just about The Divider, but he's also, singlehandedly, lowering the reputation of Americans in general. ....or what little bit of decent reputation we may have had before The Divider mouth-farted his way to head the #2 political party of the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJP Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Trump should now back up his claim by being waterboarded live on telly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimbuman Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Liberals change there tune real fast after becoming victims of crime. Esp if they are beaten or have a family member murdered. Right between the eyes and not one waco lib replies, completely ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norvid Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 What wrong with it? The Old Testament say: "An eye for an eye". This is a Jewish Holy Scripture. Can you disagree with god's words in the holy scripture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggt Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Me thinks...Sir Donald should be given the "waterboarding treatment"...then re-access his stand on the ill conceived inhumane treatment of people who may or may not be terrorists... I think you could threaten to require Muslims to serve in the LGBT community and work in a BBQ pork restaurant...would get better results... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Ok here goes as I am sure to catch hell for this post. I personally have no problem with water boarding in certain circumstances. Many say that waterboarding does not work but if in cases it does work and information is gained then why not. It might be preferable to cutting of their balls to get information. Let's face some facts here. We are no longer dealing with combat as we did in WWII where most countries abided by the Geneva convention. That was basically thrown out the window a long time ago with regards to these guys masquerading as soldiers. The villains of today who pretend to be soldiers are nothing but scum that needs to be exterminated. Personally if I were the Iraqi army fighting these guys I would take no prisoners and I would be using whatever method to get information from those captured before using a firing squad on them. Sometimes you just have to exterminate vermin. Sorry but I just don't consider most of these terrorists as human. Having some notion that they are makes us weak to the point we can't ever win in this situation. We can certainly witness how much worse things have gotten with our current philosophy with regard to fighting terrorists. Everything is worse now than it was in 2008. So while Trumps comments are meant to draw a certain response from some, the liberal press will make more out of it than it is. Waterboarding isn't cutting off someones head for no reason at all, is it? If things were left up to the politically correct crowd here on TV, nothing would ever be done about anything. I'm surprised that a more PC word has not been coined to replace terrorist. Edited June 30, 2016 by Trouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Let's face some facts here. We are no longer dealing with combat as we did in WWII where most countries abided by the Geneva convention. One problem. Your "facts" are incorrect. Much as no one wants to admit it, torture has always been used during warfare and that includes WW II. It was not just the Axis powers either. Great Britain and America used it too. Only very naïve, politically correct types think that it will stop being used by the military any time soon, but publicly admitting it has been very stupid indeed. A slight air of unreality has permeated the debate over “enhanced interrogation techniques” in the war against terror, with historians embarrassedly studying their toecaps over the issue. For the truth is that there has not been a war in history in which torture has not been employed in some form or another, and sometimes to excellent effect. When troops need information about enemy capabilities and intentions—and they usually need it fast—moral and ethical conventions (especially the one signed in Geneva in 1929) have repeatedly been ignored in the bid to save lives. In the conflict generally regarded today as the most ethical in history, World War II, enhanced interrogation techniques were regularly used by the Allies, and senior politicians knew it perfectly well, just as we now discover that Nancy Pelosi did in the early stages of the war against terror. The very success of the D-Day landings themselves can largely be put down to the enhanced interrogation techniques that were visited upon several of the 19 Nazi agents who were infiltrated into Great Britain and “turned” by the British Secret Intelligence Service (SIS) between 1939 and 1945. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/05/13/how-torture-helped-win-wwii.html Edited June 30, 2016 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up2u2 Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 "If things were left up to the politically correct crowd here on TV" If things were left up to the politically correct there would be no war in Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria and ISIS, Guantanamo and the global refugee crisis would not exist. The War mongers took over and screwed up the world as usual. Trump's solution is lets start torturing people and executing innocent people that will solve the problem. What a dipshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoiBiker Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Anyone who tells you the solution to violence is more violence is either an idiot or trying to to pull the wool over your eyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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