Refusal !

[markr]

Gutted! girlfriend had her interview this morning and it was refused, it seems the reasons are as if they paid no attention to her wahatsoever!!

I'm a little lost for words but check out the letter and see for yourselves all help is much appriciated

you have stated that you want o visit your boyfriend in the uk, you also state you met him in december 2005 and that he has been to thailand to visit you and that he sends you money to support you in thailand, however you have provided little evidence of your own assets or property in thailand. You have provided no details about your family circumstances, I am therefor not satisfied that you have demonstrated sufficiently strong social or economic ties to thailand that would encourage you to leave the uk. On the evidence before me, and the balance of probabillities, I am therefor not satisfied that only a visit is intended or that you will leave the uk at the end of the period stated by you

Furthermore you have failed to provide any satisfactory evidence of you boyfriends employment in the uk other than a letter from his company in the uk. you have not provided any evidence regarding your boyfriends financial status in the uk or provided any bank statements to verify his income, I do not find this credible. I am therefore not satisfied on the balance of probabilities, that you will be able to maintain and accomodate yourself without taking employment or having recourse to public funds during your proposed visit

1. I do not send her money and my gf never mentioned this!

2.she has provided the deeds to her property in the phillipines and a house in thailand, she was even asked to bring the originals to the interview as she only supplied copies on application, these were not looked at!

3. she has a large bank account, it was also stated very clearly in my letter that i would only be sponsoring her for her accomodation and that she would be funding her own trip to the uk, I do not need to pay for her she has more money than me!!!!

4.why would i need to prove my financial status if she is paying for her trip?, i supplied a letter as a reference from my boss just to show i was employed in a proffesional occupation and not some sponger!

She did say the ECO was a rather pleasant chap and also promised her it would pass if she applied again, HOW? what more can we supply to change this next time, she also noticed the additional paper work she took with her this morning did not get looked at properly

What do you think folks, im completely lost

thanks, mark

[totlanh]

Sorry to hear about this Mark you must feel terribile.This decission appears not to be based on the reality of the situation at all,very strange.Good luck if you appeal

[markr]

Also it seems this letter was written before she even arrived! Going by what he has said all the points of refusal are based on her paperwork, why make us wait nearly a month for an interview when these points are nothing to do with what she has said this morning, ther must be something we can do, we want to apply again but this just seems stupid

Really pi***d off

mark

Edited November 16, 2006 by markreed

[Phil_ne_uk]

markreed, make a note of ALL these points, have them in front of you and phone the embassy explaining these points, then ask how can they refuse on the incorrect reasons that they have stated.

[markr]

I have called them i was told this morning that it would not be possible to speak to the ECO, Mr Steve Pettigrew, and the receptionist would not comment, Who should i email or write to? will it ever get to the ECO if i do??

cheers mate

[atlastaname]

Mark,

having been through the pain of a refusal before you know i am sincere when i say i know what you are going through and how you feel.

As i made rather too many posts yesterday i am going to keep out of this one for a while and let some others have their say.

I feel sorry for you . Sounds like a strange refusal , especially as the ECO would not say apply again and you will get it . Clearly that is not what he said , maybe something got lost in the translation.

The ECM will speak to you , you have to persevere . Keep ringing , as your only chance to get this reversed quickly is to get it sorted whilst its still hot. If you don't you have a long journey ahead.

Sympathies, Atlastaname

[Phil_ne_uk]

I beleive that on the embassy website they advise phoning between 1-3.30pm (Thailand time, + 7hrs) Tel: +66 (0) 2 305 8333

If you phoned at a different time he would have probably been busy with applicants. Phone again and if they tell you he's not available, ask when's the best time to catch him, or ask to speak to the entry clearance manager. I think they like to make things difficult to p**s people off. So dont give up!

[markr]

Thanks all

Atlastaname, if you do have any info that might help us i would be truly grateful, also GU22, both your views, although often competitive are always on the button!! and thanks phill i'll keep on!

Where is the scouser???

[Thaddeus]

Thanks all

Atlastaname, if you do have any info that might help us i would be truly grateful, also GU22, both your views, although often competitive are always on the button!! and thanks phill i'll keep on!

Where is the scouser???

Mark ..... first of all.... remain calm.

I've been through a couple of refusals myself, so I know what it feels like. You can call them in the next 50 minutes or so. If you haven't already done so, write down a list of your, well thought out, responses to each of the reasons stated for the refusal to stop you getting flustered.

Keep your spirits on the up.... at all times.

[Phil_ne_uk]

You can call them in the next 50 minutes or so.

With all respect Thaddeus how can he phone them now? It's 7.20pm now in BKK and I don't think they work overtime! lol

[rockwellrob]

Hi Mark, good luck if you can speak to the ECO, but if still no joy, then write a letter to the ECM explaining all the points you wish to make, and ask them to look at the application again. They will have to look again on this basis.

Dont give up keep trying.

Rockwellrob

[Phil_ne_uk]

write a letter to the ECM explaining all the points you wish to make

rockwellrob, with all respect writing a letter or sending an email is a waste of time. It's too easy for them to ignore it and you can't reason with them via a letter as is possible on the phone. Speaking to the eco is the best way initially!

[markr]

Its too late to speak to them now, I have sent them emails to every visa inbox at the embassy, detailing the utter <deleted> they have stated in this refusal letter, i dont think it will do any good and we'll probably have to apply again, thing is there's not alot we can change next time round

thanks all

[Phil_ne_uk]

Mark, they're not likely to reply to your email quickly. Do as Thaddeus suggested

write down a list of your, well thought out, responses to each of the reasons stated for the refusal to stop you getting flustered.

Then phone them tomorrow at the earliest time they suggest on their website, you’ll have to check but as I said I think it’s from 1.00pm. INSIST to speak to the eco concerned. Don’t let them fob you off. I’ve had similar problems trying to speak to a British staff there but you have to be insistent, I was and got to speak to the person I wanted.

So up early tomorrow and post your results here. Good luck, keep positive and don’t give in without a fight!

[Thaddeus]

You can call them in the next 50 minutes or so.

With all respect Thaddeus how can he phone them now? It's 7.20pm now in BKK and I don't think they work overtime! lol

Ooops ..... Time zones really screw me up .... think UK, subtract 7 hours .... genuine mistake.

I would still stand by the first part though and call them tomorrow, at the right time obviously

I have had email replies from the Embassy, but it can take a little longer. Plus, unless incredibly well written, an email has no personality and you cant have a discussion with it..... a phone call is always better IMO.

//edit/ add the post above to this.... simultaneous posting... it's a curse

Edited November 16, 2006 by Thaddeus

[fracair]

Its too late to speak to them now, I have sent them emails to every visa inbox at the embassy, detailing the utter <deleted> they have stated in this refusal letter, i dont think it will do any good and we'll probably have to apply again, thing is there's not alot we can change next time round

thanks all

I don’t know what visa you apply for and I can not offer any advice, all I can say is don't give up, if your heart is in it you will succeed.

[Mossfinn]

Where is the scouser???

Mark, very sorry to hear of your decision, I don't know whats going on at the moment, some good applicants being refused.

Scouse is back tomorrow, probably late though, send him a PM and I am sure he'll pick it up as soon as he can.

Moss

[atlastaname]

Hi Mark... yes of course i will try to advise you . Its raining in the UK and quiet at work so i can eat my lunch and type at the same time.

In my opinion , once you have spent this evening writing down all the points you want to raise , i would call the ECM tomorrow morning BKK time and ask to speak to him . If he's busy in the morning as is likely , at least you can ask when he will be free. You want to do this tomorrow otherwise its going to start getting cold over the weekend. In fact if it was me i would type and FAX your letter , addressed to the ECM not the ECO who did the interview, tonight so they have it in the morning . Make it clear you will be calling . They may well say that they haven't had time to look at it , but at least you then have proof that you were onto it as quickly as you could have been. Monday would then be a reasonable time to suggest speaking to him. Start keeping copies of everything you write or say starting NOW.Keep a log. Just in case you don't get a quick reversal of the decision and have to re-apply.

Now to look at the refusal letter (thanks for posting that it helps immensly in giving advice).

1) They state very clearly that she said you send her money and support her . Now either she did or didn't put that on the relevant part of the application form. Its hard to believe that they could make such a simple reading mistake (they can read after all). You are saying nothing of the sort was ever said or written. So where did they get that from? Must be somewhere...think. If you are sure beyond sure that this is a total mistake on their part then make that point one when you write your letter to the ECM. Presumably you have a copy of the application form, what did you write where it asks you?

2) They say she provided little in the way of proof to show her assets in Thailand (they seem to be ignoring the Philippines property..although i would have thought that relevant as she only has to show she will leave the UK , not that she will return to Thailand ..its not a major thing though). She showed the deeds to her Thai property did she not ? Presumably that is the "little" they refer to. If properly translated and with her name on it (correct?), i can't see what else she could have shown. Again make that point.

3) No details of family circumstances. I thought the only details that are asked for are on the application form when it asks for name and occupation of parents. You filled this in i assume ?

4)The rest of the first paragraph is standard wording of no importance.

5) Its a personal question but you say she has a large balance. How large ? In my experience they regard B.500000 to be the minimum for even a short visit and more like B1 million to even start to feel ok. As you are not sponcering her i think she should be showing well over that. I have not just plucked these figures from the air , and i expect i'll be told i am wrong , i've had conversations with ECM's including a lovely guy , i think his name was Mr Blake back in the late 1990's who was a real nice man deep down although he looked forbidding. Even invited me back into his office. See that happening now ...don't laugh!! I digress... he told me thats the kind of figures they like to see and that was all those years ago. Now i'm sure i'll be told thousands of people get a visa with just B40000 , but i am telling you that you have to be on the safe side . If she is wealthy then B1-2Mill is not a lot of money really is it .

6)nothing is said about accomodation so that all appears to have been dealt with.

7)The whole of the second paragraph concentrates on the sponcership thing which as you say , if you are not sponcering her , is irrellevant.

Seems to me that the key to all this is an unexplained discrepancy between what they are reading on the application form and what you say you have put. How could they have assumed you were the sponcer if you made it plain you were not? There has to be an explanation...what is it?

The ECO certainly would not have said apply again and you'll get it .So why is your g/f telling you he did? Again this is an unexplained discrepancy.

If you can show, beyond doubt i.e. a copy of your application form , that it was clear that she was supporting herself and you are just providing accomodation then i think there is a good chance the ECM must overturn it . If not , and you will know next week at the latest, then get straight onto UK Visas via their complaint page and they will reply to you within 20 days, usually before that. Go to see your local MP at his/her next public surgery(without waiting for UK Visas's reply) taking your copy of the application form along with you along with a copy of the refusal notice and your covering letter that you submitted to prove they have got it wrong and ask that he/she shows it to the minister concerned .

Just one last thing , what did you put in your covering letter that you sent in with the application form ?. Maybe the answer to all these discrepancies are to be found in this letter.

If you can give me some answers to these questions i will post again.

[Phil_ne_uk]

I don't know whats going on at the moment, some good applicants being refused.

With Xmas coming up and they have to stay here working (if you can call it that) so are unable to get back to the UK to see family, (if they have any! lol) So maybe they don't want any onther F****r to go to the UK either? Just a thought.

[GU22]

Its too late to speak to them now, I have sent them emails to every visa inbox at the embassy, detailing the utter <deleted> they have stated in this refusal letter,

Please say you didn't put it like that! Straight in the bin if you did.

As others have already said, write down each point in the refusal letter and your rebuttal.

When phoning, ask for the Entry Clearance Manager, and when you get through go through the reasons why you think the refusal is wrong. Try and stay calm, even if it appears you are getting nowhere at first. Make it clear that you will put all of this in writing if necessary.

Get a transcript of the interview. They may not give one to you, but they should give one to her. From Chapter 8; 8.13 - Interviews

Interview notes

You should ensure that accurate and legible interview notes are kept for all refusals and in particular where the decision is appealable. You should ensure that your notes are as full as circumstances allow and that they contain no personal shorthand. Any abbreviations should be explained in a footnote. You must be able to substantiate anything you treat as fact and be able to show reasonable grounds for not being satisfied on matters of opinion, such as a person’s intentions.

If an applicant requests a copy of their interview notes, they should be supplied free of charge.

Contact details here.

This is the second decision we've been told of in recent days which, based on the information supplied by the OP, seems to be perverse. I can think of only two possible reasons:

1) A new ECO applying the rules too vigorously.

2) Instructions from the Home Office to be stricter with applications of this type.

No. 1 is bad, but will hopefully be rectified soon as complaints about the ECO keep arriving, and it does mean there's a chance the refusals will be overturned by the ECM.

No. 2 is much worse, as it means the goalposts have been moved without telling anyone!

[atlastaname]

Mark , sorry i know i said i would wait until you replied, but because it took so long to type my reply in between serving customers, i missed the last few posts by you and others.

Its really important that you don't start getting emotional or personal in your dealings with them . You are dealing with people who care nothing for your plight or hers so sending them abusive e-mails will not help at all. Keep it factual. Pick apart their refusal notice word by word .. thats the way to do it

If you did send those e-mails then you may already have ruined any chance you had , and you had an excelent chance given what you posted.

Please answer my earlier questions, the answer to all this lies within them i think.

Atlastaname

[Mossfinn]

[ So maybe they don't want any onther F****r to go to the UK either? Just a thought.

Bit harsh Phil, don't you think?

[markr]

Atlastaname,oh dear! deeds for thai property are printed in thai! does this really make a difference? sponsorship letter from her mum was also in thai!!!!

money is no problem, I will try and post my original letter for your reference,

GU22 I have listed all these discrepancies and i will call in the morning

[Mossfinn]

Its too late to speak to them now, I have sent them emails to every visa inbox at the embassy, detailing the utter <deleted> they have stated in this refusal letter,

Please say you didn't put it like that! Straight in the bin if you did.

Have to agree with GU22 there, I really hope you put your grievance in a constructive manner.

You have had some good advice Mark it would be best to follow it I feel.

Good Luck again

Moss

[Thaddeus]

If you did send those e-mails then you may already have ruined any chance you had , and you had an excelent chance given what you posted.

Mark.

If you have sent some emails that are constructed emotionally .... do yourself a favour and send another one now apologising for such..... most people read email top-down, so if you retract first, the second won't be read all the way through or discarded instantly (busy people don't waste time)

If it is a well balanced email ..... just call them tomorrow.

[markr]

This is my exact wording

With regard to costs involved in kedsarins visit,she will only require spending money for shopping etc, she will not have to pay for accomodation etc as this will be covered by my family and I.I estimate she will require around £1500 or thb100000 which is more than enough for her flight and stay and she will cover this herself.

Dont think it could be much clearer

mark

ps i didnt send any emotional type or rude emails just a constuctive one detailing the points i will raise when i call

Edited November 16, 2006 by markreed

[atlastaname]

Atlastaname,oh dear! deeds for thai property are printed in thai! does this really make a difference? sponsorship letter from her mum was also in thai!!!!

money is no problem, I will try and post my original letter for your reference,

GU22 I have listed all these discrepancies and i will call in the morning

Mark, seems to me you are still , understandably, rather emotional. Sorry if my long and well intentioned e-mail upset you . The point i was trying to make about the translation(obviously i didn't word it well) is that they would need to see for themselves that HER name was on the deeds otherwise how would they know it was her property. And if her mothers letter was in Thai how exactly do you expect them to understand it? You are always advised to get everything translated into english.

Re the money , i would have thought that what you wrote is somewhat inadequate. £1500 a large bit would be eaten by the flight gives her maybe ..what...£800 left roughtly. Not exactly wealthy. Just about adequate i suppose but not quite how i read your first postings.

Thank goodness your e-mails have not done any damage after all.

Maybe i'll stay out of this . Loads of others here to give you advice. Mine seems to upset you , and as i remember how i felt after my partners refusal, i don't want to add to your woes. Apologies if i seemed to be too hard on you, i am looking at it from their eyes not mine.

[Thaddeus]

Good ..... call them tomorrow.

//edit/reply to Mark/not the post above

Edited November 16, 2006 by Thaddeus

[markr]

The £1500 was a reference as to what i thought she would spend whilst here, not what she has in the bank.

Her name is clearly on the deeds but they are written in thai, you didnt upset me dont worry, i'm just being a bit blunt today It just seems that if we have to re-apply were going to get nowhere as theres not much else we can provide them with

thanks

[Thaddeus]

Atlastaname raises some good points here Mark.

As far as I am aware, if a translator is in attendance for the interview, it will be just for that, the interview.

All your supporting documents should be in English.... that may be why it was suggested that she should apply again...... with everything in English *wink* (word better than emoticon in this instance)

I have met the ECO who interviewed your partner more than once.... he is a nice chap, but plays by the rules as far as I am concerned.... if someone above him questioned him about his potential positive decision on this case with "can you read this" ...... I don't think I need to go any further with that.

Call them tomorrow .... see if they will allow new English translations to be submitted in this application, if not, get the translations done and make a fresh application.